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Vakaros Atlas vs Racegeek D10

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So, has anyone who has preordered tried to get their money back from Vakaros? I am at that point. Not because I can't be patient but because I can't get a direct answer. They don't respond to email - rarely. And, has been stated it is always some general response. Just curious if anyone has tried?

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Little sidebar to this conversation, has anyone used the sail22 racegeek installation kit? I’m think of getting it for my Melges 24 but wanted to see what people thought of it first before purchasing the kit?

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On 6/18/2019 at 11:19 PM, Kelm872 said:

Little sidebar to this conversation, has anyone used the sail22 racegeek installation kit? I’m think of getting it for my Melges 24 but wanted to see what people thought of it first before purchasing the kit?

 

A friend with a J/70 has the kit. They like it in general, but Ed did the install. I'll ask if they have an specific opinions worth sharing. I hard-wired mine into the boats 12v system.

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My installation on a firstclass8: B&G WS 310 MHU; Triton² Display; DST800 triducer; Pelagic autopilot (connected with actisense converter to NMEA 2000); vyacht multiplexer (to use android apps like sailgrib). Would like to install racegeek or vakaros for up and down clubregattas.

As far as I understand only the racegeek provides gps/magnetic course data to the nmea2000 network ? Vakaros is more or less a standalone solution ? No wind data input  ?

Can I connect the racegeek to the actisense converter parallel to the pelagic or do I need another converter ? Or using the vyacht nmea 2000 output for the racegeek ?

 

Martin

 

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43 minutes ago, mescalito11 said:

My installation on a firstclass8: B&G WS 310 MHU; Triton² Display; DST800 triducer; Pelagic autopilot (connected with actisense converter to NMEA 2000); vyacht multiplexer (to use android apps like sailgrib). Would like to install racegeek or vakaros for up and down clubregattas.

As far as I understand only the racegeek provides gps/magnetic course data to the nmea2000 network ? Vakaros is more or less a standalone solution ? No wind data input  ?

Can I connect the racegeek to the actisense converter parallel to the pelagic or do I need another converter ? Or using the vyacht nmea 2000 output for the racegeek ?

 

Martin

 

I'm not sure the rgeek will send data to an n2k network. Mine is connected to n2k through my actisense, but only receives. It does take wind input, but using it for the median wind is a future update. Nice thing is that unless you need to look at polars for your w/l racing, the geek will handle pretty much everything you need - line pings, bias, wind, mark locations, and countdowns.

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to get COG/SOG in my B&G system  it would be nice to use the nmea2000 output of the racegeek....do I need an extra actisense converter or is it possible to make a parallel installation with the pelagic ?

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The Racegeek only outputs things via wifi and only NMEA0183 or SignalK...

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so the promised connectivity to NMEA 2000 ("via an external cable") is only one way  (getting wind data from the B&G 310) ???

Any chance to get the wind data into the vakaros ?

 

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I am using "startline" and I build a racebox to get the winddata (thanks to Allen Edwards) so no need for vakaros or racegeek apart from the low performance of a smartphone display in sunlight.

Vakaros or racegeek could be an alternative to startline without the need of an additional bright display; I`m not sure if it is worth the money.

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Didn't allen stop supporting startline? So it's not available to new users. I can tell you that RaceGeek provides excellent support.

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startline is no longer available in the play store; for existing users it is still a great app; but I`m thinking about using racegeek; mainly because of the display and the integration in my existing N2K network;  it would be really nice to get the gps data from the racegeek in my B&G system;  any experience with vyacht multiplexer and racegeek ? vaycht handles nmea 2000 and nmea 0183.

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1 hour ago, mescalito11 said:

startline is no longer available in the play store; for existing users it is still a great app; but I`m thinking about using racegeek; mainly because of the display and the integration in my existing N2K network;  it would be really nice to get the gps data from the racegeek in my B&G system;  any experience with vyacht multiplexer and racegeek ? vaycht handles nmea 2000 and nmea 0183.

you need to look at the wiring diagram for the geek. It has a highspeed listener and a low speed listener and no talker circuit on the wire:

image.png.3ea2359ef6372879056938153a6ca16f.png

vyacht or ikommunicate should both be able to take the data from the geek and put it on your network. from the geek site: 

IN: The d10 can connect to a WiFi Access Point and receive NMEA0183. We recommend the Digital Yacht iNAVconnect


OUT: The d10 can act as a WiFi Access Point for other devices sending NMEA0183 or Signal K v1 delta JSON. The d10 sends all the NMEA it receives and sentences for the internal GPS, compass and an analogue paddlewheel.

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To tell you the truth we under anticipated the number of people that would want to use the d10 with the set up from another manufacturer. So we prioritises maximising the number of inputs - and having an independent ground on each - over including a wired tx.

Or research showed that people tend to get theur kit from the same manufacturer. So our focus was on people who use a tablet app for navigation. The price of the Triton pack has been a gamechanger there.

Nmea2000 support is more straight forward. We aimed the d10 at everything from 20ft sportsboats to 35ft cruiser racers (in practice the d10s good for 60ft+!). Nmea2000 support would add $200 to the retail for everyone.

Lessons learned. We definitely need to look at these in future.

 

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By the way the d10 repeats any ais or nmea sentence on wifi whether it uses it for it's own functions or not

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and having an independent ground on each

Huh? The whole point of RS422 (NMEA0183 electricals) is that they aren't referenced to a DC return. The shield should be terminated at the transmitter's end, never the receiver's. So those "ground" pins have no function as far as I can see ... what's the scoop?

Nmea2000 support would add $200

Huh? An isolated CAN transceiver is $2, falling to $1 at 1000 pieces. Even if your microprocessor has no CAN engine, a protocol engine is another $1.50. I fail to see how a BOM price increase of between $1 and $2.50 translates to a product cost of $200. Are you really running 99% gross margins?

Yes, the NMEA's fees are outrageous - $825 to join, $4000 to certify a product and $2500 for the full specification, call it 7500. But at $200 per device, that says your plan is to sell less than 40 devices. Even if you sell only 400, it's closer to $20 per unit and it's not product cost, it's R&D expense.

I'm not suggesting you should add NMEA2000, but I am curious about the length of the latex glove used to come up with the $200 per unit.

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Youre not factoring in channel costs, testing, libraries, the 5 pin m12 and just the pure time required.

The receivers signal and ground pair, including the paddle wheel, run straight to high speed opto isolators. There's no connection to the d10 circuit except for that.

We actually took the reference design straight out of the back of the nmea mamual.

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Fair enough on the M12-5, although I'd recommend a micro-usb connector and an optional adaptor cable as the M12-5 is too big for a modern device. Add $4 for the connector and make it back on the adaptor cable - net cost $0.

There are no appreciable channel costs, don't you sell direct, anyway? Testing libraries and time required aren't product cost and the capability has real value as evidenced by the feedback. How long was the latex glove used to dig out that $200 number?

Again, there is no "ground" or DC return reference for RS422; it's self-referenced. If you look at the reference design on page 5, here, you'll see that shields are terminated at the Talker and that the Listeners have only two pins per channel. That said, if you're using electrical reference designs from a ASCII-based serial protocol manual, you might consider an engineering consultant to review your designs. 

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10 hours ago, Moonduster said:

How long was the latex glove used to dig out that $200 number?

Ouch (on several levels)!

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On 7/19/2019 at 5:25 AM, rgeek said:

To tell you the truth we under anticipated the number of people that would want to use the d10 with the set up from another manufacturer. So we prioritises maximising the number of inputs - and having an independent ground on each - over including a wired tx.

Or research showed that people tend to get theur kit from the same manufacturer. So our focus was on people who use a tablet app for navigation. The price of the Triton pack has been a gamechanger there.

Nmea2000 support is more straight forward. We aimed the d10 at everything from 20ft sportsboats to 35ft cruiser racers (in practice the d10s good for 60ft+!). Nmea2000 support would add $200 to the retail for everyone.

Lessons learned. We definitely need to look at these in future.

 

 

That does not surprise me. I use my RaceGeek on a mid-size boat, and it is a near-ideal solution for mid-size boats that are equipped with typical SOG/depth/wind instrumentation in the cockpit, and perhaps a stand-alone compass (Prostart/RaceMaster/etc) on the mast. For the money I got 3 big lines of instrumentation on the mast, smart mode switching, integrated to existing boat data, all of this repeated over a WiFi network it creates. It also uses that WiFi to allow remote control access via a free phone app. I looked into doing all this any other way, and the cost was as least 2-3x as much in every case.

 

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Finally got around to installing the D10 on my J80 after having it sitting around for a few months, can't wait for next season hopefully this will get us to a podium. 

pretty sure we're the first one in the PNW 

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There is a PNW J24 with one of the first ones shipped, and they actually used it this summer.

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17 hours ago, Varan said:

There is a PNW J24 with one of the first ones shipped, and they actually used it this summer.

Ah didn't know about them! if they're on the lake probably haven't crossed paths 

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The racegeek website isn't loading?  Any idea if they are still in business?

In the mean time, this looks promising - https://sailmon.com/max/ 

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Wow...The Sailmon Max looks like a nice unit from a proven company.  Anybody have experience with Sailmon?  Will they deliver on-time with functionality as promised?  The Vakaros hardware is great but nine months after receiving the unit it still doesn't have the advertised functionality and no updates in sight.

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That looks really cool and the pricing is nice at half of the other options.  I hope they start to support wind data over WiFi and not just BLE.

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On 11/20/2019 at 6:22 AM, evenflow said:

The racegeek website isn't loading?  Any idea if they are still in business?

In the mean time, this looks promising - https://sailmon.com/max/

We had a DDOS attack that took us a couple of days to work through.

Still happily in business, shipping product worldwide and delivering results.

A Racegeek instrument fitted to the mast of a Melges IC37

Image may contain: sky, twilight, cloud, ocean, outdoor, water and nature

 

Race geek

We put our attention on sponsoring events this summer and have our head down on the next update.

We'll talk about that when it's ready to go!

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Ah men to that, but unfortunately they seem to go after any vulnerability in order to send out spam. We use Zendesk for support and that has been a regular target.

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Order the Vakaros from Melges via their Black Friday sale November 30th.  Received on December 4th.  

Very happy!!

 

Thanks Santa

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Any mounting solutions for either for rotating mast?  I don’t want to buy two for f24 beams and think there should be some solution for rotating mast mounting so I can see from the cockpit AND amas

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9 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

Any mounting solutions for either for rotating mast?  I don’t want to buy two for f24 beams and think there should be some solution for rotating mast mounting so I can see from the cockpit AND amas

We have d10s on Diam 21s to Xtreem 40s. They all found the large digit size and wide viewing angle means a single device mounted just behind the mast is all they need.

I don't think you have a vang to deal with so this approach could be a way forward?

We have a couple of fabricators who have produced custom carbon brackets for the d10 we can recommend, but I do think it will be overkill in your case.

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15 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

Any mounting solutions for either for rotating mast?  I don’t want to buy two for f24 beams and think there should be some solution for rotating mast mounting so I can see from the cockpit AND amas

Why not go with a basic B&G Triton system? You could get 3 multi-function displays (1 cockpit and 1 per ama) for nearly the same $$ and you'd have some redundancy. 

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On 12/13/2019 at 11:43 AM, samsonite said:

Why not go with a basic B&G Triton system? You could get 3 multi-function displays (1 cockpit and 1 per ama) for nearly the same $$ and you'd have some redundancy. 

While that would solve the viewing issue, it would not have the metrics - dot, time to line! Wind! Veg, etc that I am looking for.

 

thanks for the suggestion though, that is why the forums are so valuable

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9 hours ago, Loose Cannon said:

While that would solve the viewing issue, it would not have the metrics - dot, time to line! Wind! Veg, etc that I am looking for.

 

thanks for the suggestion though, that is why the forums are so valuable

I'm not familiar with dot, or Wind! Veg. What is it you're looking for?

As far as Time to line, are you going to have true wind data and polars in your system? It sounds like what you're looking for is the H5000 or similar and Expedition.

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Any B&G Zeus 2 or 3 plotter with a wind instrument will do everything you need. The only issues are: 12v power, space - where to mount it and that you’d want a real compass sensor.  It’s of course more of a keelboat solution.  
 

The Zeus and compass will be cheaper than a RG, you might even have enough money for a wind sensor or N2K wiring, but you’d have needed that for the RG anyways.  
 

Just saying when it comes to spending cash, a modern colour sailing chart plotter is a great tool for the money, that we seem to forget here.  
 

 

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evenflow, you're not wrong. We have a Zeus2  mounted on an arm that we can pull into the companionway. With the latest firmware, you get line bias, start sequence, a rudimentary polar table, and a pretty good layline setup to the marks. I especially love it on distance races. I still prefer the D10 on the mast for most of our racing though. Having the speed/heading numbers up high helps keep my head out of the boat, especially downwind when the cockpit gets crowded. There are some improvements to the firmware that could be made, and some of them are in the works, but overall, it's a great tactical compass that allows me to NOT need the chart plotter and its power draw for simple inshore W/L courses.

Additionally, for the price of admission, you get analytics that you don't get with any B&G setup. Some of the tools are very helpful, and while some of them are still also works in progress, they are on the track to becoming a great way to analyze what went well and what didn't over the course of a regatta. Ultimately the D10 really isn't that expensive for what you get, and hopefully as they gain a little more experience they'll incorporate some features to make it even better. 

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37 minutes ago, evenflow said:

Any B&G Zeus 2 or 3 plotter with a wind instrument will do everything you need. The only issues are: 12v power, space - where to mount it and that you’d want a real compass sensor.  It’s of course more of a keelboat solution.  
 

The Zeus and compass will be cheaper than a RG, you might even have enough money for a wind sensor or N2K wiring, but you’d have needed that for the RG anyways.  
 

Just saying when it comes to spending cash, a modern colour sailing chart plotter is a great tool for the money, that we seem to forget here.  
 

 

Perhaps, but it could also be done with a stopwatch, a calculator, and a pad and pen.

The whole purpose of the kit is to reduce cockpit workload. Unlike the average person that stares at a plotter (naviguesser?), the person using the cockpit device has several other jobs, and is doing so in a frenetic environment. In these cases a dedicated tool with dedicated functionals and buttons will trump a multi-purpose device with layers of modal buttons and screens.

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I agree with you Ryley, I am just cringing at $2k CAD for another box when I have a pile of great stuff laying around after owing a well equipped large keel boat before my OD boat.  

Most of my fleet races with a Velocitek Prostart or Tacktick Racemaster.  The Racegeek seems perfect just expensive.  I’m still really tempted by the Sailmon, just no reply from them about some basic questions yet.  

 

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27 minutes ago, Jackdaw said:

Perhaps, but it could also be done with a stopwatch, a calculator, and a pad and pen.

The whole purpose of the kit is to reduce cockpit workload. Unlike the average person that stares at a plotter (naviguesser?), the person using the cockpit device has several other jobs, and is doing so in a frenetic environment. In these cases a dedicated tool with dedicated functionals and buttons will trump a multi-purpose device with layers of modal buttons and screens.

Good thinking. But I doubt you'll get far with your stopwatch, a calculator, and a pad and pen. But please, go for it and report back.

I like @evenflow's proposal of a Zeus or Vulcan. Like any tool the trick is how you use it. If you are disciplined and you only pull up the info you (or someone else in this case, because all you need a stopwatch, calculator, a pad and pen) need and set up the instrument with the right screens you'll cut through all the noise and basically configure yourself (again not you @Jackdaw) a custom tailored device.

But back to my original question before you interjected your poorly informed quip, how does one of these magical things calculate time to line?

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17 minutes ago, samsonite said:

Good thinking. But I doubt you'll get far with your stopwatch, a calculator, and a pad and pen. But please, go for it and report back.

I like @evenflow's proposal of a Zeus or Vulcan. Like any tool the trick is how you use it. If you are disciplined and you only pull up the info you (or someone else in this case, because all you need a stopwatch, calculator, a pad and pen) need and set up the instrument with the right screens you'll cut through all the noise and basically configure yourself (again not you @Jackdaw) a custom tailored device.

But back to my original question before you interjected your poorly informed quip, how does one of these magical things calculate time to line?

LOL. You are TOTALLY overthinking this. Or underthinking. I'm not sure why.

I'll come back to my central point. That non-modal dedicated devices, with targeted functionality, will do a better job. The paper and pen example was a slight exaggeration to prove a point, which seems to have been too subtle for you.

This isn't idle speculation. In a past life I designed UIs and ran a product team that designed marine plotters. You had to pick how to lower user workload (mental and physical) by prioritizing functionally and modalities. These devices are jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. TTL is not going to rank high on a general purpose plotter. So there is more work for the use to do. More ways to make mistakes in the heat of battle.  FYI, I own a D10, and a Shift, and a ProStart. I have a reasonably deep understanding of the design considerations then went into each of them. I also have a B&G system on my big boat. Trust me, I'm never going to swap out a dedicated mast box for a like system.

Can't come up with the cash to obtain one, that's fine, but don't use your rationalizations as truth here.

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20 minutes ago, Jackdaw said:

LOL. You are TOTALLY overthinking this. Or underthinking. I'm not sure why.

I'll come back to my central point. That non-modal dedicated devices, with targeted functionality, will do a better job. The paper and pen example was a slight exaggeration to prove a point, which seems to have been too subtle for you.

This isn't idle speculation. In a past life I designed UIs and ran a product team that designed marine plotters. You had to pick how to lower user workload (mental and physical) by prioritizing functionally and modalities. These devices are jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. TTL is not going to rank high on a general purpose plotter. So there is more work for the use to do. More ways to make mistakes in the heat of battle.  FYI, I own a D10, and a Shift, and a ProStart. I have a reasonably deep understanding of the design considerations then went into each of them. I also have a B&G system on my big boat. Trust me, I'm never going to swap out a dedicated mast box for a like system.

Can't come up with the cash to obtain one, that's fine, but don't use your rationalizations as truth here.

Ok. Leaving UI design philosophies aside. What I am asking about is this "targeted functionality." How does your D10 calculate TTL?

As for not using personal rationalizations as truth, I would ask that you do the same.

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Can’t argue with that.  I’m just hyper cheap and like to recycle stuff I already have in the pile.

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ping the boat end, ping the pin end which makes a virtual line, use GPS position for a distance to the virtual line. use distance divided by current VMG speed to calculate time to line

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6 minutes ago, JMOD said:

ping the boat end, ping the pin end which makes a virtual line, use GPS position for a distance to the virtual line. use distance divided by current VMG speed to calculate time to line

How do you calculate VMG? What does the device do if you cannot cross the line on your current heading?

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probably nothing. VMG is easy, basic math

 

image.png.e847a655b75e0a53e78aa3e907c34ed9.png

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Like in many things in life, the basics (math) are easy, but the devil is in the details. Sensor hysteresis will cause lag in the devices ability to accuracy understand rapid changes in angle and speed, creating crazy short-term values that must be recognized, averaged and/or discarded. True TTL is difficult for this reason.... small changes in the bow angle will create wildly different readings TTL. The lag creates a 'hunt' scenario that is very frustrating for all involved.

 

That's the big reason most devices report shortest-distance-to-line and not TTL... it is much less sensitive.

 

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On 12/17/2019 at 3:03 PM, JMOD said:

ping the boat end, ping the pin end which makes a virtual line, use GPS position for a distance to the virtual line. use distance divided by current VMG speed to calculate time to line

If you were to sail to the line at the current speed.

The TTL you actually need to know is the time you'd arrive at the line if the sheeted on, turned to the upwind course that's available to you thanks to the boats around you, and then accelerated/decelerated to your target speed to get off the line based on your tactical objectives coming off the line.

We've tried hard not to include anything in the d10 for sake of it; where there is a better alternative, where it would be overly complex to use, or it would detract from sailing as a sport of wind and water.

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25 minutes ago, rgeek said:

If you were to sail to the line at the current speed.

The TTL you actually need to know is the time you'd arrive at the line if the sheeted on, turned to the upwind course that's available to you thanks to the boats around you, and then accelerated/decelerated to your target speed to get off the line based on your tactical objectives coming off the line.

We've tried hard not to include anything in the d10 for sake of it; where there is a better alternative, where it would be overly complex to use, or it would detract from sailing as a sport of wind and water.

Vakaros is advertising TTL in their features (https://www.vakaros.com/atlas-tech-specs). How are they doing this?

458349227_ScreenShot2019-12-18at10_56_33AM.png.b37d5fcb04057aff8c301c24802ef05a.png

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I cannot imagine a mast mounted unit being any more complicated than using current heading, distance and velocity (maybe averaged) to give an idea of your TTL as discussed.

Any other situation where you have bunged things and need to tack could be done via a sail steer type display (think of a projected vector past the pinged line, the a forecast to rack) but at that point you’d be pretty well last at that start and would never have applied any tactics or starting skills.  

Electronics just can’t substitute for someone’s wits being about them.  I will admit that I rarely use that functionality on my system in OD racing as it is a pure distraction for me in a tight fleet on a short line.  

Well planned tactics and communications with crew seem to work way better for me.  
 


 

 

 

 

 

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samsonite,

on the zeus2, they don't have time to burn but they have what they call a 'zero burn line,' which is a line that is parallel to the start line that you should be on to start at the gun. To use this feature, you need to fill in the polar table in the zeus or you have to have an H5000 with your polars in it. This method works pretty well because it takes into account variations in wind speed and direction. 

in sailracer, since they don't have polars, they take your speed and course on a close hauled course before the start and use that to calculate your vmg and provide the time to burn. Less accurate since the wind speed and direction may not be the same as when you locked in those numbers.

vakaros is probably simpler still, since they show time to line (TTL) not time to burn (TTB). since I don't think they currently have their own wind sensor, they're likely to use a method similar to the sailracer method: lock in the ends of the line, take upwind speed and courses to get a coarse wind direction, then use vmg calculations and boat position to present DTL and TTL. Note that Time To Burn is the difference between TTL and Time to Start and can be negative if you're late.

With the sailracer and vakaros (if similar) methods, I'd expect the TTL or TTB to stay pretty constant (but not necessarily accurate) since they are based on a single measurement at a single point of time. the h5000 (and expedition, for that matter) will be more accurate but vary widely based on the observed wind speed and potentially the actual boat speed.

this is all speculation on the Vakaros system though because they really don't have a lot of documentation on the site as to how to implement their features in the real world.

with the racegeek, currently the limit is on the distance below the line. supposedly it captures line bias as well but I have yet to successfully see that at my firmware revision. It wouldn't take much to add a TTL based on current VMG - maybe in a future update.

 

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7 hours ago, samsonite said:

Vakaros is advertising TTL in their features (https://www.vakaros.com/atlas-tech-specs). How are they doing this?

To be honest, no idea. Someone on the Vakaros thread may have a view?

For me, it's all about usability and prioritization. In regatta mode we have it down to 2 options on each of 5 pages. Any more and the feedback was that it was overly complex and confusing. That really forces you to make choices about what has real value.

Then there's a smart repeater mode where everything runs in the background, controlled from the phone APP, and you choose what to display. In the next update (v1.5) you can access the prestart page in this mode as well.

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On 12/17/2019 at 7:48 AM, samsonite said:

@Loose Cannon my comment about true wind instruments and polars was not mean to be flippant. How does the system you think you want calculate time to line?

Sorry, work getting in the way of my mental vacation of dreaming about boats and racing.

Apologies for the metrics in the post, that was mostly iOS autocorrect.  Distance to Line, Time To line, SOG, COG, VMG (which is really the only thing I care about once past the starting line - although I would swap VMC for VMG on a distance race).  while those can be delivered - or are at least promised in the products we are discussing, the accuracy of those measures (is my iphone refresh rate as good as a paddlewheel speed measure?) and the calculations of those measures are my area of concern.

Similarly, my development of polars to validate my input from the hairs on the back of my neck and the sounds from the boat is also usually dependent on an understanding of true wind direction (how the heck do I get that easily with a rotating mast) and true wind speed.  Any 'windshot' is a fixed moment in time.

So those are my objectives.  I am glad to live in a world without a hole in the bottom of my boat for a paddlewheel speed unit, and glad to spend cash on sails and regatta fees rather than electronics.

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Loose Cannon said:

Sorry, work getting in the way of my mental vacation of dreaming about boats and racing.

Apologies for the metrics in the post, that was mostly iOS autocorrect.  Distance to Line, Time To line, SOG, COG, VMG (which is really the only thing I care about once past the starting line - although I would swap VMC for VMG on a distance race).  while those can be delivered - or are at least promised in the products we are discussing, the accuracy of those measures (is my iphone refresh rate as good as a paddlewheel speed measure?) and the calculations of those measures are my area of concern.

Similarly, my development of polars to validate my input from the hairs on the back of my neck and the sounds from the boat is also usually dependent on an understanding of true wind direction (how the heck do I get that easily with a rotating mast) and true wind speed.  Any 'windshot' is a fixed moment in time.

So those are my objectives.  I am glad to live in a world without a hole in the bottom of my boat for a paddlewheel speed unit, and glad to spend cash on sails and regatta fees rather than electronics.

Thanks

Amen

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I have a D10 under the xmas tree for my helmsman/father.

 

will be installed on melges 24 800 next spring. We cant wait. 

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23 hours ago, Streetwise said:

D10 requires external battery or power, right?

 

Correct.

On my bigger boat where the D10 is connected to the boat's other instrumentation via NMEA, the cable connection is a boon. For smaller boats, it can be less so. When I am doing that we use a small Li-Ion Car Starter battery pack. Its cheap, charges via USB and will power the D10 for 24 hours. Walmart sells its for US$35.

12eb5298-a76c-4f2a-8c61-3bb5e779c341_1.41c1847d932d45fefd0dbc8ea8985160.jpeg

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On 12/23/2019 at 9:29 AM, Jackdaw said:

 

Correct.

On my bigger boat where the D10 is connected to the boat's other instrumentation via NMEA, the cable connection is a boon. For smaller boats, it can be less so. When I am doing that we use a small Li-Ion Car Starter battery pack. Its cheap, charges via USB and will power the D10 for 24 hours. Walmart sells its for US$35.

12eb5298-a76c-4f2a-8c61-3bb5e779c341_1.41c1847d932d45fefd0dbc8ea8985160.jpeg

id like to know how to wire your D10 to that

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47 minutes ago, arr4ws said:

id like to know how to wire your D10 to that

 

you splice the D10 cable into the 12v output of the charger. The 12v output cable is designed to jump cars. You cut the battery clips  off and solder and seal the d10 cable on. 

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On 12/25/2019 at 10:09 PM, arr4ws said:

id like to know how to wire your D10 to that

You do realize that this technique is only slightly less 'inventive' than the factory approved method....

 

 

Racegeek_Installation_Kit_-_Complete__40499.1524165252.1280.1280.jpg

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You do realize that the Milwaukee battery is only 4AH, costs $55 and requires a $40 charger for a total of $23/ah. The Stanley product is 8AH, costs $35 and requires no charger for a total of $4/AH and twice the capacity?

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3 hours ago, Jackdaw said:

You do realize that this technique is only slightly less 'inventive' than the factory approved method....

 

 

Racegeek_Installation_Kit_-_Complete__40499.1524165252.1280.1280.jpg

Link?

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Not for you, JD, for Ed F:

For fuck's sake Furry is that the best you could figure out?  That's some bullshit engineering, you're better than that!

 

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Maybe, but the actual carbon mast bracket (very different than that picture) is top notch.

 

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Plenty of options for mast brackets.

Here's a rather nice wrap around double stack made by Carbon Masts in the Netherlands. Locks 'em in tight with no slack or movement. I know Ed can sort the same for our US customers. 

Will Howden at SO3D has a 3D printed bracket available. The super cool thing is that he can change each print to fit the mast profile for individual boats.

...

Installation wise by far the best option is to use an MMEA t-connector and 3 field fits. That will work for everything up to and including an installation with a masthead and analogue paddlewheel, and you end up with a solid ip68 installation without needing to get the soldering iron out.

We've itemised the parts lists involved here: https://support.racegeek.ie/hc/en-us/sections/115000749845-Installation-part-lists

...

It works great as one but the d10 isn't intended as a GPS only device. As a new company, you're up against a pretty solid incumbent in Velocitek there. Since the transducer drives the need for a 12v battery it's a challenge whatever set-up you're trying to run. At this price point, there is going to be a compromise somewhere. We didn't want to turn the d10 into a device that died after 2-3 years, and put the focus on the screen.

 

outrageous_deck.jpg

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Cool. Thanks for that.

We're wary of recommending parts that aren't specifically presented as for marine use by the manufacturer but we'll give them a try.

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There's nothing about NMEA2000 physical infrastructure that's "specifically" for the marine market. The NMEA took the physical infrastructure directly from Device Net, added some branding and increased the prices. The M12 standard has been around for decades, is an ISO standard and has evolved well beyond the crap offered by marine retail.

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On 12/27/2019 at 5:03 PM, ryley said:

Maybe, but the actual carbon mast bracket (very different than that picture) is top notch.

 

 

Indeed. And it was not my intent to cast dispersion on the power solutions... because all the differing boats and setups, adding 12v power to a small boat without a marine battery is always going to be bit of a science project. I chose the Stanley solution primarily because 1) It would work and 2) I could pick it up on the way home from work.

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1 hour ago, Jackdaw said:

 

Indeed. And it was not my intent to cast dispersion on the power solutions... because all the differing boats and setups, adding 12v power to a small boat without a marine battery is always going to be bit of a science project. I chose the Stanley solution primarily because 1) It would work and 2) I could pick it up on the way home from work.

c /dispersions/aspersions/

 

stupid siri.

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I am considering testing one or more of these for practical sailor magazine while frostbite sailing this season. I sail on JY15's and Flying Scots in the winter. If you use the product today, please take a moment to answer these questions, 

1. Which product do you use, and on what model sailboat?  Do you use it alone, or connected to boat speed & wind sensors? Do you use it racing or cruising? How is it valuable to your sailing enjoyment?

2. I am having a difficult time imagining taking time looking at these displays while racing. Are these overkill for either of both of these boats / this type of sailing? Why/Why not?

3. Which product or products do you know take the results and give a good post-race analysis?  Is that a feature you find valuable that you actually use that post-race analysis frequently, or does that feature go unused?

4. If I could only review one product, to give all users a flavor for its usefulness, what would it be?  If I could evaluate two products, head to head, which would they be?

5. I also race a J/109 aggressively using a B&G H5000 computer, mast instrument displays, and Zeus 3 MFD's. is there anything these products do or do  better, that the H5000 does not? 

Either write back here or message me. Thank you for your thoughtful feedback.

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1. Racegeek D10 on a Columbia 30-2. It is integrated through an actisense with the N2k data, which includes speed, depth, and wind.. I use it whether I'm racing or cruising. Using it has definitely improved our starts, still in our first year though so we're still working through some of the advanced features.

2. The size of the digits makes a look at the display pretty easy actually - considering as driver I'm mostly focused on telltails anyway, the display is pretty much in my periphery and takes less time to read than the two bulkhead-mounted Triton displays. Also, Jud Smith uses a D10 on his J70, and credits it with providing good information on the course.

3. Racegeek has post-race analysis that I do look at after every race. The analytics are still in a development state but they are getting better and it is good enough for me to see which shifts I missed, and how efficient my tacks were. I can't speak to any other analytic tool, except one boat I raced on did analytics after every day's races using Ockam instruments and recording software.

4. If you are comparing them, I suppose the two to compare are the D10 and the Vakaros. You could add the prostart or even some apps like startline I suppose.

5. If you've got an H5000 and good displays already, then you probably wouldn't be looking to the D10. One thing I like about it is that for buoy racing, I don't strictly need to run any of my other instruments and still ping the start line, set course waypoints, set a median wind direction and see lifts and headers, as well as boat speed, at least speed over ground. If I want wind inputs and speed through water, then I need to turn on my instruments as well. The racegeek has no polar table, can't read the one off the H5000 or the Zeus2(3). 

I added the D10 to replace a racemaster. the display is easier to read and the features, either standalone or tied in with my other instruments.

 

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