Gouvernail

Immigration: How you Think It Works and Shouid

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Let’s suppose you are a Mexican kid living an a small rural community. You have “finished school” at the top end of your class. The career options in your community look pretty bleak. Everybody in town is dirt poor, lives in crappy housing, and barely scrapes by. 

You know you are pretty smart and hard work doesn’t scare you. In fact, you enjoy the feel of being tired from accomplishing a task like building a building. You have spent enough time helping to fix cars and trucks you know you could be a good hand at any auto repair shop. 

You know, “If I could get a job in the USA I could show them how great a mechanic I am.”

.....

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Let’s suppose you are a Mexican kid living an a small rural community. You have “finished school” at the top end of your class. The career options in your community look pretty bleak. Everybody in town is dirt poor, lives in crappy housing, and barely scrapes by. 

You know you are pretty smart and hard work doesn’t scare you. In fact, you enjoy the feel of being tired from accomplishing a task like building a building.

You have spent enough time helping to fix cars and trucks you know you could be a good hand at any auto repair shop. 

You know, “If I could get a job in the USA I could show them how great a mechanic I am.”

.....

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

 

He should start a repair shop in Mexico.

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16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Let’s suppose you are a Mexican kid living an a small rural community. You have “finished school” at the top end of your class. The career options in your community look pretty bleak. Everybody in town is dirt poor, lives in crappy housing, and barely scrapes by. 

You know you are pretty smart and hard work doesn’t scare you. In fact, you enjoy the feel of being tired from accomplishing a task like building a building. You have spent enough time helping to fix cars and trucks you know you could be a good hand at any auto repair shop. 

You know, “If I could get a job in the USA I could show them how great a mechanic I am.”

.....

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

 

Actually Gov, I'm not too keen on the idea of first world countries poaching the best and brightest from "shitholes"

 Re immegration, the world needs a brand new plan.

ive said before, we need a global fund, a global plan. 

Im currently living in europes economic laughing stock..yet this country is rescuing and sheltering more refugees, than the UK ,unaided, and makes the problems of the USA pretty petty.

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22 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

 

He should start a repair shop in Mexico.

What capitalist would start a repair shop in a community where no one can afford a car??

why not start a beemer / Lexus  repair shop in Austin where 150 new money filled wallets  move to town every day?? 

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Back on topic... 

The thread question:

How does my hypothetical guy get in legally?? 

What is the process?? 

 

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24 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

 

He should start a repair shop in Mexico.

You'd rather one of your opioid addicted, welfare scum fix your car. 

Got it. Sao just can't wait for some poor kid in the USA be given a hand up

Have you any idea how much your posts on different threads contradict each other ?

or maybe you just know..that somewhere out there is a blue eyed, all American boy, sitting selling apples ..and in a few years..he'll be be fronting up to the local mechanic, willing to work for nothing just to get a chance..

in the meantime, sorry to tell you, your cars frozen,  insert sarcasm font.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Back on topic... 

The thread question:

How does my hypothetical guy get in legally?? 

What is the process?? 

 

Um..well you could try something like our process but with assisted entry and an employment bond

do you need mechanics?

yes??

are you of good character?

yes

if the USA pay your passage and assist you in finding an apprenticeship, do you agree to remain and work in the USA for 5 years?

Yes

welcome to the usa

easy

 

(he gets full citizenship after 5 years, no family reunion rights, that's for refugees)

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Anybody.  

Many if you write about how “those illegals shouid wait In line and and do it the legal way.”

what do you think is the legal way?

what line?

who decides which folks get to be in the front of the line?? 

Please describe what you think is the legal system!!! 

 

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The circumstances you describe are Mexico's problem. It is not the function of the US immigration system to solve Mexico's problems.

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17 minutes ago, Dog said:

The circumstances you describe are Mexico's problem. It is not the function of the US immigration system to solve Mexico's problems.

 

The problem is a global problem.... Our problem... Not for someone else to solve. We all live on this planet and share the air, the oceans, and the catastrophes, and we should also share the bounty. But the "Fuck you, I got mine" attitude is pervasive.

If I were king of the world, there would be no borders to exclude people from trying to get ahead, and make a better life for themselves and their children. If you live in Canada, and want to raise ducks in Paraguay, go for it. If you live in Germany and want to farm oysters in Australia, go for it. If you live in Iran and want to be a shop keeper in Des Moines, Iowa, go for it! What difference does it make where you're from, and what you want to do?

 

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39 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Anybody.  

Many if you write about how “those illegals shouid wait In line and and do it the legal way.”

what do you think is the legal way?

what line?

who decides which folks get to be in the front of the line?? 

Please describe what you think is the legal system!!! 

 

C'mon Gouv, we all know that you know the rules. It's doubtless vastly more complex than most think. We got that.  What else ya got?

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

 

The problem is a global problem.... Our problem... Not for someone else to solve. We all live on this planet and share the air, the oceans, and the catastrophes, and we should also share the bounty. But the "Fuck you, I got mine" attitude is pervasive.

If I were king of the world, there would be no borders to exclude people from trying to get ahead, and make a better life for themselves and their children. If you live in Canada, and want to raise ducks in Paraguay, go for it. If you live in Germany and want to farm oysters in Australia, go for it. If you live in Iran and want to be a shop keeper in Des Moines, Iowa, go for it! What difference does it make where you're from, and what you want to do?

 

What if everyone decided to come here?

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Let’s suppose you are a Mexican kid living an a small rural community. You have “finished school” at the top end of your class. The career options in your community look pretty bleak. Everybody in town is dirt poor, lives in crappy housing, and barely scrapes by. 

You know you are pretty smart and hard work doesn’t scare you. In fact, you enjoy the feel of being tired from accomplishing a task like building a building. You have spent enough time helping to fix cars and trucks you know you could be a good hand at any auto repair shop. 

You know, “If I could get a job in the USA I could show them how great a mechanic I am.”

.....

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

 

It’s a mess, and in my mind, that process is a bigger problem than any stupid wall. (I’m sure that’s weird hearing that from a righty)

However, one of my co-workers isn’t a U.S. citizen and he’s worked here for years. He said the “green card” process was annoying, but not very hard. He has to renew it from time to time, but hasn’t had any problems working here legally. 

That example isn’t meant as an argument. We work in a field in high demand, and he’s well educated. I have serious doubts the process is that easy for a hard working, but lower educated folks. That’s where I get mad about the system. 

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14 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

What if everyone decided to come here?

Everyone won't because once people start coming here in droves, people already here will want to go to someplace else.

Imagine a whole Idaho and Utah full of like minded people living in Chile.....

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6 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Everyone won't because once people start coming here in droves, people already here will want to go to someplace else.

Imagine a whole Idaho and Utah full of like minded people living in Chile.....

You got me there. I like it.

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

You'd rather one of your opioid addicted, welfare scum fix your car. 

Got it. Sao just can't wait for some poor kid in the USA be given a hand up

Have you any idea how much your posts on different threads contradict each other ?

or maybe you just know..that somewhere out there is a blue eyed, all American boy, sitting selling apples ..and in a few years..he'll be be fronting up to the local mechanic, willing to work for nothing just to get a chance..

in the meantime, sorry to tell you, your cars frozen,  insert sarcasm font.

 

 

I don't need to get anyone like that.

Besides, if the guy is such a shit hot mechanic he will be able to find work all over the world.  In fact, most of what passes for 'mechanics' these days in the US and elsewhere in the western world are parts replacers who do what the computer tells them.

MTBF on newer cars is awsome so we don't need so many.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Anybody.  

Many if you write about how “those illegals shouid wait In line and and do it the legal way.”

what do you think is the legal way?

what line?

who decides which folks get to be in the front of the line?? 

Please describe what you think is the legal system!!! 

 

Mexicans need to change Mexico, not come to the US to turn it into Mexico.

 

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17 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Mexicans need to change Mexico, not come to the US to turn it into Mexico.

 

Where are your family from?

Portugal? Did they come on a fishing boat that just happened to dock in New Bedford one night?

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Uncommon silence from the Sao....... Hmmm.....

 

Time for my dinner, and perhaps roast a few immigrant children over hardwood coals for an after dinner snack..... Andiamo!

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17 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Where are your family from?

Portugal? Did they come on a fishing boat that just happened to dock in New Bedford one night?

Nope, Scots Irish.  Departed Liverpool shortly after the civil war and arrived in accordance with the then current laws.  On the other side my Grandfather come over from Germany between the World Wars.  Also legally.  My wife come over in the 60s after we married in England.  Also legally.

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1 minute ago, Mrleft8 said:

Uncommon silence from the Sao....... Hmmm.....

 

Time for my dinner, and perhaps roast a few immigrant children over hardwood coals for an after dinner snack..... Andiamo!

15 minutes?  You have a really short attention span.

 

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Um..well you could try something like our process but with assisted entry and an employment bond

do you need mechanics?

yes??

are you of good character?

yes

if the USA pay your passage and assist you in finding an apprenticeship, do you agree to remain and work in the USA for 5 years?

Yes

welcome to the usa

easy

 

(he gets full citizenship after 5 years, no family reunion rights, that's for refugees)

You should lobby Canberra for a 10 Peso Pablo program.

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Um..well you could try something like our process but with assisted entry and an employment bond

do you need mechanics?

yes??

are you of good character?

yes

if the USA pay your passage and assist you in finding an apprenticeship, do you agree to remain and work in the USA for 5 years?

Yes

welcome to the usa

easy

 

(he gets full citizenship after 5 years, no family reunion rights, that's for refugees)

Geee, you get to ask them questions before they come in?

How does that happen without a formal legal process?

Do your concentration camp guards speak spanish?

 

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

Nope, Scots Irish.  Departed Liverpool shortly after the civil war and arrived in accordance with the then current laws.  On the other side my Grandfather come over from Germany between the World Wars.  Also legally.  My wife come over in the 60s after we married in England.  Also legally.

I doubt that, but if you say so, with out providing papers to verify your claims, who am I to refute you?

All anyone coming into the country with a spanish accent has to do is claim they are Puerto Rican... Right? You can't ask a US citizen to prove that they are a citizen.....

 An Irish man can come in and claim he's from Boston, an Italian from New York..... So why the fuss?

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4 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

What if everyone decided to come here?

People who don't like big crowds would leave.

-DSK

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3 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Nope, Scots Irish.  Departed Liverpool shortly after the civil war and arrived in accordance with the then current laws.  On the other side my Grandfather come over from Germany between the World Wars.  Also legally.  My wife come over in the 60s after we married in England.  Also legally.

"In accordance with the then-current laws" would be none.

-DSK

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Let’s suppose you are a Mexican kid living an a small rural community. You have “finished school” at the top end of your class. The career options in your community look pretty bleak. Everybody in town is dirt poor, lives in crappy housing, and barely scrapes by. 

You know you are pretty smart and hard work doesn’t scare you. In fact, you enjoy the feel of being tired from accomplishing a task like building a building. You have spent enough time helping to fix cars and trucks you know you could be a good hand at any auto repair shop. 

You know, “If I could get a job in the USA I could show them how great a mechanic I am.”

.....

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

 

We should have open immigration.  No criminals, no infectious diseases, no welfare, and a very long path to citizenship.  Otherwise, if that Mexican wants to come work here, we should be glad to have him.  If we did this, our national output would double and our standard of living  increase immensely.  And, of course, so would the immigrant's.   

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6 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

 

The problem is a global problem.... Our problem... Not for someone else to solve. We all live on this planet and share the air, the oceans, and the catastrophes, and we should also share the bounty. But the "Fuck you, I got mine" attitude is pervasive.

If I were king of the world, there would be no borders to exclude people from trying to get ahead, and make a better life for themselves and their children. If you live in Canada, and want to raise ducks in Paraguay, go for it. If you live in Germany and want to farm oysters in Australia, go for it. If you live in Iran and want to be a shop keeper in Des Moines, Iowa, go for it! What difference does it make where you're from, and what you want to do?

 

Woah..that's post apocalyptic thinking..spot on lefty.:D

 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

People who don't like big crowds would leave.

-DSK

 

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

People who don't like big crowds would leave.

-DSK

You see some people just don't get it.

at the moment, I'd happily take my million plus and move to a certain small island with a struggling economy.

like water, unrestricted borders and money level out

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

We should have open immigration.  No criminals, no infectious diseases, no welfare, and a very long path to citizenship.  Otherwise, if that Mexican wants to come work here, we should be glad to have him.  If we did this, our national output would double and our standard of living  increase immensely.  And, of course, so would the immigrant's.   

 

5 hours ago, Saorsa said:

You should lobby Canberra for a 10 Peso Pablo program.

You say that like it's purple .

:rolleyes:

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6 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Everyone won't because once people start coming here in droves, people already here will want to go to someplace else.

Imagine a whole Idaho and Utah full of like minded people living in Chile.....

And the pressure is eased from the countries people are leaving.. It all levels out.

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5 hours ago, Saorsa said:

Geee, you get to ask them questions before they come in?

How does that happen without a formal legal process?

Do your concentration camp guards speak spanish?

 

I'm addressing the OP..try it sometime..asylum seekers is over the park and left at the boatyard

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14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm addressing the OP..try it sometime..asylum seekers is over the park and left at the boatyard

Yeah on this topic he's an idiot. Australia has a pretty good skilled migrant program and it's always over-subscribed. Bit hit & miss what skills the Govt lists as being in short supply, but that's a detail. We do have a process and it works. IIRC the current quote is around 200K people/year for a population base of 22 million or so. The unfortunate bit is, most of them want to live in Sydney, Brisbane or Melbourne. I should count my blessings though - they might want to settle in Tasmania (I'm in Sydney for the next 2-3 months and I know I'm going to hate the crowds/traffic).

Mind you so does the USA have a skilled worker program. I was offered sponsored work visa status some years ago but decided after a year that I preferred living back in Australia.

As for taking the best & brightest from 'shithole countries' what else would we want to do? Take the utterly idiotic and incompetent who'd never have a job and drag down the tax base? We can breed those locally without any problems, no need to import more.

FKT

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9 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

I doubt that, but if you say so, with out providing papers to verify your claims, who am I to refute you?

All anyone coming into the country with a spanish accent has to do is claim they are Puerto Rican... Right? You can't ask a US citizen to prove that they are a citizen.....

 An Irish man can come in and claim he's from Boston, an Italian from New York..... So why the fuss?

You sure can ask an American to prove citizenship.

You can ask to see a drivers license.

You can ask a male to prove he's registered for the draft.

You can ask for a copy of your last income tax return.

You can ask to see Visa papers when someone enters the country.

People can ask a lot of shit.

And, people can lie whether under oath or not.  If you think they are it is reasonable to ask for some proof.

 

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Yeah on this topic he's an idiot. Australia has a pretty good skilled migrant program and it's always over-subscribed. Bit hit & miss what skills the Govt lists as being in short supply, but that's a detail. We do have a process and it works. IIRC the current quote is around 200K people/year for a population base of 22 million or so. The unfortunate bit is, most of them want to live in Sydney, Brisbane or Melbourne. I should count my blessings though - they might want to settle in Tasmania (I'm in Sydney for the next 2-3 months and I know I'm going to hate the crowds/traffic).

Mind you so does the USA have a skilled worker program. I was offered sponsored work visa status some years ago but decided after a year that I preferred living back in Australia.

As for taking the best & brightest from 'shithole countries' what else would we want to do? Take the utterly idiotic and incompetent who'd never have a job and drag down the tax base? We can breed those locally without any problems, no need to import more.

FKT

We also have skilled migrant and immigrant programs.  We also have immigration quotas.

Here you can look into the actual requirements.

We even have a special category for Australians (if you can prove you are Australian).

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7 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

 

You see some people just don't get it.

at the moment, I'd happily take my million plus and move to a certain small island with a struggling economy.

like water, unrestricted borders and money level out

Like with a struggling infrastructure and no wifi?

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13 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

 

The problem is a global problem.... Our problem... Not for someone else to solve. We all live on this planet and share the air, the oceans, and the catastrophes, and we should also share the bounty. But the "Fuck you, I got mine" attitude is pervasive.

If I were king of the world, there would be no borders to exclude people from trying to get ahead, and make a better life for themselves and their children. If you live in Canada, and want to raise ducks in Paraguay, go for it. If you live in Germany and want to farm oysters in Australia, go for it. If you live in Iran and want to be a shop keeper in Des Moines, Iowa, go for it! What difference does it make where you're from, and what you want to do?

 

30 million Venezuelans agree with you.

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1 hour ago, Saorsa said:
9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

"In accordance with the then-current laws" would be none.

-DSK

Your ignorance is showing.  Check Wiki for the History of US Immigration and naturalization laws.

Really? You should read the things you quote, it does not support your statements.

There were laws covering how a person who moved here from another country could become a citizen...... the Naturalization Laws...... but nothing regulated how many people could come here, until:

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States) "After the immigration of 123,000 Chinese in the 1870s, who joined the 105,000 who had immigrated between 1850 and 1870, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882 which targeted a single ethnic group by specifically limiting further Chinese immigration."

Basically, there were no immigration restrictions or laws before this. And immigration laws only restricted the Chinese until right around 1900, and a bit after that some other countries were added.

So, for slightly more than half it's existence, the USA did not have income tax or immigration laws. That was obviously the original intent of the Constitution. How come that changed? What else should be changed? Perhaps we should consider changing back?

-DSK

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

Like with a struggling infrastructure and no wifi?

She was probably thinking of Philip Island - a million *might* buy her a shack there.....

FKT

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16 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Really? You should read the things you quote, it does not support your statements.

There were laws covering how a person who moved here from another country could become a citizen...... the Naturalization Laws...... but nothing regulated how many people could come here, until:

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States) "After the immigration of 123,000 Chinese in the 1870s, who joined the 105,000 who had immigrated between 1850 and 1870, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882 which targeted a single ethnic group by specifically limiting further Chinese immigration."

Basically, there were no immigration restrictions or laws before this. And immigration laws only restricted the Chinese until right around 1900, and a bit after that some other countries were added.

So, for slightly more than half it's existence, the USA did not have income tax or immigration laws. That was obviously the original intent of the Constitution. How come that changed? What else should be changed? Perhaps we should consider changing back?

-DSK

I did say after the civil war did I not?  I don't have the exact date but it was 1880s or thereabouts.  My family was OK because we were not chinese.  On the downside we couldn't import slaves or own them.  That law was changed too.  Different times within the US need changes to laws.  That's why we have a congress. 

I'm not sure I see a compelling need for open immigration.  Neither has congress whenever immigration reform (like the DREAM act) are debated and voted on.

Are you suggesting we should eliminate income tax and go back to tariffs?

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I did a 5 sec search and read ..."iconic wildlife ..." Of that I have no doubt!

I kinda like Meli but she's not the "harmless chatterbox" as she claims. She's a harpy, a one-note samba, another foreigner failing to sense the economies/disadvantages of scale that the US has to deal with everyday on every issue.

As a public service:

har·py
ˈhärpē/
noun
Greek & Roman Mythology
noun: harpy; plural noun: harpies
  1. a rapacious monster described as having a woman's head and body and a bird's wings and claws or depicted as a bird of prey with a woman's face.
    • a grasping, unpleasant woman.

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16 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

I did a 5 sec search and read ..."iconic wildlife ..." Of that I have no doubt!

I kinda like Meli but she's not the "harmless chatterbox" as she claims. She's a harpy, a one-note samba, another foreigner failing to sense the economies/disadvantages of scale that the US has to deal with everyday on every issue.

As a public service:

har·py
ˈhärpē/
noun
Greek & Roman Mythology
noun: harpy; plural noun: harpies
  1. a rapacious monster described as having a woman's head and body and a bird's wings and claws or depicted as a bird of prey with a woman's face.
    • a grasping, unpleasant woman.

That's a bit harsh. Left-wing airhead is closer IMO. Means well but has no ability to figure the consequences of what she proposes.

FKT

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Well

It does not work and has not worked for such a long time it’s pretty out of control 

Down in North Belport the falling down migrant workers union building is still there except they kind of got tired of just coming up for the season and never left 

They our from everwere as the hotel / tourism / nursing home / farming /everything industry has gotten quite use to bringing in cheep not complaining about horrible working conditions labor 

If they come in legally and do stand up for themselves it does not go well 

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Nurses-who-quit-face-criminal-charges-3296476.php

 Myself I will go into work tomorrow and go over things with my translator and make the best of things and leave it up to others to figure out how the E-Verify system is so completely failing  

 

This is guy is my favorite as he has quite the interview on YouTube and pretty much wants and 18 hour a day 6 day a week work force 

“We could probably get [U.S. workers] to come with a lot higher wages,” Ripp added. “But the turnover would be very high.” Troy Ripp said that it would probably take three to four domestic workers to cover the shifts that one of his immigrant laborers is willing to work “

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

That's a bit harsh. Left-wing airhead is closer IMO. Means well but has no ability to figure the consequences of what she proposes.

FKT

I bow to local knowledge. Left-wing airhead it is.

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On 10 June 2018 at 1:53 PM, Blue Crab said:

Like with a struggling infrastructure and no wifi?

My dear, a couple of million could buy this whole island wifi and some infrastructure...you see you're not getting it.

70 years ago, 80/ of people from these islands went to Melbourne or Darwin.

the islanders here are doing ok, despite the economic crisis.

Why? A lot came back...with money..sure they are still poor by your standards, but it's the Austraian Greek you'll find behind the shop counter or the restaurant.. 

Not going out in the beautiful but doomed caiqui every night for 10kg of boney fish.

Most of the charming tiny homes on the caldera in Santorini are now architected beyond recognition .

somr people will give up city madness and "western" lifestyles in return for their million dollar investment.

22 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

That's a bit harsh. Left-wing airhead is closer IMO. Means well but has no ability to figure the consequences of what she proposes.

FKT

Fark u too :D

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22 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I did a 5 sec search and read ..."iconic wildlife ..." Of that I have no doubt!

I kinda like Meli but she's not the "harmless chatterbox" as she claims. She's a harpy, a one-note samba, another foreigner failing to sense the economies/disadvantages of scale that the US has to deal with everyday on every issue.

As a public service:

har·py
ˈhärpē/
noun
Greek & Roman Mythology
noun: harpy; plural noun: harpies
  1. a rapacious monster described as having a woman's head and body and a bird's wings and claws or depicted as a bird of prey with a woman's face.
    • a grasping, unpleasant woman.

Couldn't be that you simply like your women dumber than you could it?

:rolleyes:

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On 6/9/2018 at 3:59 PM, Gouvernail said:

What capitalist would start a repair shop in a community where no one can afford a car??

why not start a beemer / Lexus  repair shop in Austin where 150 new money filled wallets  move to town every day?? 

How did he learn to repair cars in a place without cars? Sounds like he fixes bikes then. 

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23 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

She was probably thinking of Philip Island - a million *might* buy her a shack there.....

FKT

That gets you 10 points :D

Phillip island is full of dead beat poms living off the gov tit and still whinging.

DAMHIKT

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On 6/9/2018 at 3:23 PM, Gouvernail said:

Let’s suppose you are a Mexican kid living an a small rural community. You have “finished school” at the top end of your class. The career options in your community look pretty bleak. Everybody in town is dirt poor, lives in crappy housing, and barely scrapes by. 

You know you are pretty smart and hard work doesn’t scare you. In fact, you enjoy the feel of being tired from accomplishing a task like building a building. You have spent enough time helping to fix cars and trucks you know you could be a good hand at any auto repair shop. 

You know, “If I could get a job in the USA I could show them how great a mechanic I am.”

.....

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

 

First of all. It is not the government of the United States responsibility to ensure that every child in the entire world has a fair chance at the American dream. Mexico needs to be better so their citizens want to chase the Mexican Dream. 

But to answer your question. Which, without the sappy story of Juan the mechanic who learned how to fix cars in a place where no one can afford a car, is a good topic for discussion. The answer is either, it depends or we need more info. 

Does this person have any relatives who are US citizens? What is that relationship? Does this person have any special skills? Are there jobs that require his skill set that are advertised and going unfilled?

the short answer is it takes time and money ($1000+) to get an immigrant visa. How much time and money is dependent on these and other questions.  

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12 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Couldn't be that you simply like your women dumber than you could it?

:rolleyes:

While most of them are, I don't seek them out.

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24 minutes ago, chinabald said:

How did he learn to repair cars in a place without cars? Sounds like he fixes bikes then. 

Hey, it's how the Wright Brothers got their start.

 

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7 minutes ago, chinabald said:

First of all. It is not the government of the United States responsibility to ensure that every child in the entire world has a fair chance at the American dream. Mexico needs to be better so their citizens want to chase the Mexican Dream. 

...

What's the deal Gouv? You're a smart guy. Do you not agree with the above?

You started this thread to school us, so school us but please skip the boring minutiae.

Big picture please.

 

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On 6/10/2018 at 2:09 AM, Mrleft8 said:

 

The problem is a global problem.... Our problem... Not for someone else to solve. We all live on this planet and share the air, the oceans, and the catastrophes, and we should also share the bounty. But the "Fuck you, I got mine" attitude is pervasive.

If I were king of the world, there would be no borders to exclude people from trying to get ahead, and make a better life for themselves and their children. If you live in Canada, and want to raise ducks in Paraguay, go for it. If you live in Germany and want to farm oysters in Australia, go for it. If you live in Iran and want to be a shop keeper in Des Moines, Iowa, go for it! What difference does it make where you're from, and what you want to do?

 

I'm sorry, but that's the dumbest thing I've heard here yet.  In 10 years, we've be overrun by the dregs of Bangladesh and just become another South asian shithole.  Migration is not the solution to the globe's problems.  The solution to the Globe's problems start at home.  If we really want to help the rest of the world out, then we do what we can to improve the conditions in place.  You don't solve Guatemala's gang and violence problem by allowing their entire fucking population to come to the US.  because if we had open borders, that's exactly what they would do.  If you really want to solve the core issue that is driving those immigrants to flee their homes is to go in and help the gov't fix their country and clear that element out.  Send some SEAL and Delta teams into the El Salvador Barrios and fucking KILL every last MS-13 gang member with extreme prejudice and cull the gangs to the point where the El Salv gov't can take control back and reinstitute some law and order and some social protections.  

 

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On 6/9/2018 at 11:23 PM, Gouvernail said:

Let’s suppose you are a Mexican kid living an a small rural community. You have “finished school” at the top end of your class. The career options in your community look pretty bleak. Everybody in town is dirt poor, lives in crappy housing, and barely scrapes by. 

You know you are pretty smart and hard work doesn’t scare you. In fact, you enjoy the feel of being tired from accomplishing a task like building a building. You have spent enough time helping to fix cars and trucks you know you could be a good hand at any auto repair shop. 

You know, “If I could get a job in the USA I could show them how great a mechanic I am.”

.....

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

 

Gov, its a good question.  Let me go pour another cocktail and I'll try to opine on what I think works.  Because I'm living it right now.  And it works.  BRB.

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On 6/9/2018 at 11:23 PM, Gouvernail said:

This is for all of you who suggest “they ought to do it the  legal way.”

How does this ambitious young upwardly mobile Mexican get the chance to chase the American Dream?? 

Describe the steps! How long will it take?? 

Hiw would  you improve our system ? Or is it perfect?? 

Yes, they should do it the legal way.  The issue is that the current legal way is difficult, convoluted and lengthy.  Its not impossible, as evadent from many legal immigrants that come here all the time.

My Rx

  1. There should be a guest worker / temp / seasonal worker program for those that don't want to come here full time.
  2. Immigration should be based on employment - there has to be a job before you can come here to live full time.  And employer and an immigrant comes together and the migrant is sponsored to come here by the employer.
  3. The employer must pay for all health care costs / medical insurance for the employee so they don't end up in the ER unpaid.
  4. The employer pays for a security background check and medical screening for the employee so we don't bring in criminals or people with communicable disease such as TB, AIDS, ebola, etc.  
  5. All services are linked to either citizenship or a visa - you cannot open a bank account, rent an apartment, get a DL, without a visa or US citizenship documentation.  Maybe even go to a national ID card.  This would go the longest way to prevent illegal immigration.   If you can't do any basic things to live without a visa, you won't/can't stay here.  
  6. Visa gets renewed every 3-5 years.  
  7. If a visa expires but there is no record of renewal or departure from the country, the person can be arrested and deported when caught.  Again, refer to #5.  If someone doesn't have a current visa, they can't do basic services to live.   They would have to hide out and couldn't even do basic stuff.  That becomes a huge deterrent to illegal immigration or visa overstay.  
  8. The company is responsible for the employee's visa application and visa process.  Make everything online that's possible.  Where I am, we can have a complete residence visa from arrival in country to visa in about 3 weeks.  Maybe 5 weeks at the most.  
  9. I would use this process as a stepping stone to citizenship if they want it.  I would say 10 years in country if they've kept their nose clean and been productive guests, paid their taxes and learned the english language - then they can apply for citizenship.  
  10. I would remove the ability for birthright citizenship.  I don't think you should get automatic citizenship for simply being dropped out of a vagina onto US dirt.  

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Thanks Jeff - I think the path Gouv intended for this discussion is a good one.  I'm still considering how I think it *should* work, and would only add that "legal status" shouldn't imply a short-cut to citizenship, nor should it penalize anyone pursuing citizenship.  

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6 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

...     ...     ...

My Rx ...    ...    ...

       10. I would remove the ability for birthright citizenship.  I don't think you should get automatic citizenship for simply being dropped out of a vagina onto US dirt.  

So you'd be OK with being stripped of your citizenship, and have to re-apply and pass the test?

-DSK

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:
8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

...     ...     ...

My Rx ...    ...    ...

       10. I would remove the ability for birthright citizenship.  I don't think you should get automatic citizenship for simply being dropped out of a vagina onto US dirt.  

So you'd be OK with being stripped of your citizenship, and have to re-apply and pass the test? 

55 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

 

I don' think that follows.

 

Why not? Why is Jeff a US citizen? Why are you one?

-DSK

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:
11 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

My Rx ...    ...    ...

       10. I would remove the ability for birthright citizenship.  I don't think you should get automatic citizenship for simply being dropped out of a vagina onto US dirt.  

So you'd be OK with being stripped of your citizenship, and have to re-apply and pass the test?

No, the implied aspect is - like the vast majority of the countries on the globe - automatic citizenship is only granted if at least one of the birth parents is a US citizen (citizen parent by birth or by naturalization) or a child is adopted by a US citizen.  I thought that was pretty obvious.  Sorry I had to spell it out for you.  

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On 6/9/2018 at 3:48 PM, Shortforbob said:

Actually Gov, I'm not too keen on the idea of first world countries poaching the best and brightest from "shitholes"

 Re immegration, the world needs a brand new plan.

ive said before, we need a global fund, a global plan. 

Im currently living in europes economic laughing stock..yet this country is rescuing and sheltering more refugees, than the UK ,unaided, and makes the problems of the USA pretty petty.

Sheltering is one way of describing imprisonment.

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9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

No, the implied aspect is - like the vast majority of the countries on the globe - automatic citizenship is only granted if at least one of the birth parents is a US citizen (citizen parent by birth or by naturalization) or a child is adopted by a US citizen.  I thought that was pretty obvious.  Sorry I had to spell it out for you.  

Guess what, laws are spelled out quite specifically.

I think that demanding an "end to birthright citizenship" will bite a lot of the people in the ass. For many it will serve them right. It would be far easier to write such a law that removes YOUR citizenship, along with that of all the brown people and poor people you dislike so much. Oops, we didn't mean it -that- way.

Are you going to implement mandatory paternity testing to find out if your real birth father is a US citizen?

It's quite a can o' worms.

-DSK

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This has been discussed ad nauseam. It's little different than the suggestion that we reduce the demand for workers by enforcing regs/laws against the farmers who hire them. Likewise, removing the birthright provision reduces the demand of women to go to such extremes to have a baby on American soil.

If we had open borders, as some well-intentioned suggest, I'd guess that we'd soon have 43 million of the 44 million in Central and South America start walking here. Every ship on the planet would pile in the refugees and head for the nearest U.S. port. We'd get the nice little hard-working folks and the head-severing religious lunatics too. Possibly a few spies would find it good cover. I'd guess we'd have a stampede of several billion folks on the move. That anyone genuinely thinks this would be good kumbaya is likely an optimist that hasn't groked the notion of the tragedy of the commons.

Those optimists may think that's their passage thru the Pearly Gates by being kind to everyone, and their pets, but that's happy thinking. Kumbaya babies. That thinking and $0.94 gets you a senior cuppa at Mick's.  

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Guess what, laws are spelled out quite specifically.

I think that demanding an "end to birthright citizenship" will bite a lot of the people in the ass. For many it will serve them right. It would be far easier to write such a law that removes YOUR citizenship, along with that of all the brown people and poor people you dislike so much. Oops, we didn't mean it -that- way.

Are you going to implement mandatory paternity testing to find out if your real birth father is a US citizen?

It's quite a can o' worms.

-DSK

Again, Doug, this just doesn't follow. We're looking ahead not back to the 1600's. What am I missing?

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47 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Guess what, laws are spelled out quite specifically.

I think that demanding an "end to birthright citizenship" will bite a lot of the people in the ass. For many it will serve them right. It would be far easier to write such a law that removes YOUR citizenship, along with that of all the brown people and poor people you dislike so much. Oops, we didn't mean it -that- way.

Are you going to implement mandatory paternity testing to find out if your real birth father is a US citizen?

It's quite a can o' worms.

-DSK

Ending something doesn't imply retroactive application of the new statute.   Is the argument is more important than the point to you?   I agree with Jeff - and think that the "anchor baby" laws ought to change. 

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  On 6/9/2018 at 3:48 PM, Shortforbob said:

Actually Gov, I'm not too keen on the idea of first world countries poaching the best and brightest from "shitholes"

 Re immegration, the world needs a brand new plan.

ive said before, we need a global fund, a global plan. 

Im currently living in europes economic laughing stock..yet this country is rescuing and sheltering more refugees, than the UK ,unaided, and makes the problems of the USA pretty petty.

 

Mel, I thought this needed another round of contemplation by all. Especially you.

Stick with ladies' shoes, dear. Don't cloud that pretty head with current affairs.

TIA

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On 6/10/2018 at 12:21 AM, Shortforbob said:

...

like water, unrestricted borders and money level out

Cite please.

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I have a question for the Sorosites who advocate for open borders:  If you support the ability for any individual to be able to take up legal residence anywhere, do you think it's appropriate for the government of the gaining country to have any say in who they accept, or to establish any constraints upon the immigrants' personal circumstances or the immigrant's ability to participate in that country's social safety net? 

 

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How did you assclowns get from Gouvernail’s question to fighting about totally open borders??

Nobody  asked “what do you think about replacing borders with anarchy?”

1. When you say, “They should do it according to the rules” isn't it reasonable to ask you: 

“What are those rules?”

 

You live in the USA. You keep saying people should play by your rules. 

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOUR RULES??

If you don’t even know the rules, how can you tell anybody else to play by those rules?? 

How do you know everybody isn’t playing by the rules if you don’t know those rules?? 

Get in line?? What line? Where?? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Rigger said:

How did you assclowns get from Gouvernail’s question to fighting about totally open borders??

Nobody  asked “what do you think about replacing borders with anarchy?”

1. When you say, “They should do it according to the rules” isn't it reasonable to ask you: 

“What are those rules?”

 

You live in the USA. You keep saying people should play by your rules. 

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOUR RULES??

If you don’t even know the rules, how can you tell anybody else to play by those rules?? 

How do you know everybody isn’t playing by the rules if you don’t know those rules?? 

Get in line?? What line? Where?? 

 

Assuming your response is to my post immediately preceding this one:  The links to the actual text of the statute have been provided upstream in this conversation.  My question was to the respondents who suggested that the answer to "how it should work" is to have open borders.   

The "line" is at any US embassy, any physical border crossing, and the "how/why" of asylum are specifically articulated in the cited statute. 

 

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38 minutes ago, Rigger said:

How did you assclowns get from Gouvernail’s question to fighting about totally open borders??

Nobody  asked “what do you think about replacing borders with anarchy?”

 

OK first of all, giov - why are you responding to yourself with one of your own socks???

To your open borders question @Gouvernail, it was first posited by mrleft8 here in post 10.  Try to keep up.  With all your socks, I can see how that would be difficult, but try to keep up.

On 6/10/2018 at 2:09 AM, Mrleft8 said:

If I were king of the world, there would be no borders to exclude people from trying to get ahead, and make a better life for themselves and their children. If you live in Canada, and want to raise ducks in Paraguay, go for it. If you live in Germany and want to farm oysters in Australia, go for it. If you live in Iran and want to be a shop keeper in Des Moines, Iowa, go for it! What difference does it make where you're from, and what you want to do?

 

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42 minutes ago, Rigger said:

1. When you say, “They should do it according to the rules” isn't it reasonable to ask you: 

“What are those rules?”

 

You live in the USA. You keep saying people should play by your rules. 

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOUR RULES??

If you don’t even know the rules, how can you tell anybody else to play by those rules?? 

How do you know everybody isn’t playing by the rules if you don’t know those rules?? 

Get in line?? What line? Where?? 

the rules are written down in the US Code.  Available for all to see.  

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0.html

https://www.usa.gov/immigration-and-citizenship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_immigration_laws

Yes, its complicated.  But lots of people seem to navigate it quite successfully every year.  Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law.  

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7 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Again, Doug, this just doesn't follow. We're looking ahead not back to the 1600's. What am I missing?

You're missing the part where, if the citizenship laws are changed such that being born in this country does not make you a citizen, then suddenly a lot of people who are born here in the US...... possibly including you and me and Jeff..... are no longer citizens nor would your children be.

I know that is not the INTENT of what most people are saying when they talk about this, but that doesn't mean diddley. The specific wording of the law, if/when, will control it.... and after it passes that will be too late for those getting the shaft.

 

7 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Ending something doesn't imply retroactive application of the new statute.   Is the argument is more important than the point to you?   I agree with Jeff - and think that the "anchor baby" laws ought to change. 

Not necessarily, agreed. OTOH one of the things you righties are all giggles about is how you are going to shaft all the dadgum immigrants you don't want taking your hard-earned welfare dollars. The problem is that you have shafted yourselves many a time in the past, not only that but there are always unintended consequences.

What I think you mean by "anchor babies" are the born-inside-US-borders children of illegal immigrants. This is not a particularly important issue to me but I would tend to agree that illegal immigrants children should not necessarily become US citizens. The statutes covering citizenship would need to be VERY carefully revised by people I trust..... ie not one single Republican I can think of ..... that's overly harsh, maybe three or four......... and not that many others either. I don't consider the system so broken that i want to toss it out and replace with a fascist-inspired one, which what we'd be getting.

-DSK

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9 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Cite please.

Never happen. Finding an example of open borders would be difficult, and given the vast accumulation of money/assets by the 1%, the other claim is demonstrably false.

It's typical wishful thinking la la land claims as is typical of Meli.

FKT

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While you A holes are at it, why not make people demonstrate a positive financial contribution before allowing membership. 

A preemie baby who runs up a $259,000 hospital bill before leaving wouid havevto osy 27.999999% interest until thAt debt is paid off. 

Schooling and food costs wouid be added 

get arrested?? Pay the cops salaries and overhead for the cop cars and supervision 

of course, playing football at an enormous state university might pay millions back into a kid’s account 

it might be a good plan to leave the  country until you get a job 

  • Downvote 2

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15 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

You're missing the part where, if the citizenship laws are changed such that being born in this country does not make you a citizen, then suddenly a lot of people who are born here in the US...... possibly including you and me and Jeff..... are no longer citizens nor would your children be.

I know that is not the INTENT of what most people are saying when they talk about this, but that doesn't mean diddley. The specific wording of the law, if/when, will control it.... and after it passes that will be too late for those getting the shaft.

 

Not necessarily, agreed. OTOH one of the things you righties are all giggles about is how you are going to shaft all the dadgum immigrants you don't want taking your hard-earned welfare dollars. The problem is that you have shafted yourselves many a time in the past, not only that but there are always unintended consequences.

What I think you mean by "anchor babies" are the born-inside-US-borders children of illegal immigrants. This is not a particularly important issue to me but I would tend to agree that illegal immigrants children should not necessarily become US citizens. The statutes covering citizenship would need to be VERY carefully revised by people I trust..... ie not one single Republican I can think of ..... that's overly harsh, maybe three or four......... and not that many others either. I don't consider the system so broken that i want to toss it out and replace with a fascist-inspired one, which what we'd be getting.

-DSK

That is the textbook definition, and that IS what I'm talking about.   BTW - who's bucking the system now to try to get an immigration bill to a vote?   Hmmm?  Something the D's intentionally neglected even when they had the house, the senate and the white house? 

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Just now, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

That is the textbook definition, and that IS what I'm talking about.   BTW - who's bucking the system now to try to get an immigration bill to a vote?   Hmmm?  Something the D's intentionally neglected even when they had the house, the senate and the white house? 

They had that for all of two years, twice in the past 24.

When will Republicans accept responsibility for the fact that no matter how much they hate the dadgum gubbermint, they IS the gubbermint?

During the brief period of Democratic control of both houses and the Presidency, they were whirling and swirling around health care, and barely got that done. A lame axcuse I agree, but that's what happened. Besides, Democrats want illegal immigrants to flood the country so they can go on Welfare and commit voter fraud, remember? They don't want the same thing you want.

-DSK

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

They had that for all of two years, twice in the past 24.

When will Republicans accept responsibility for the fact that no matter how much they hate the dadgum gubbermint, they IS the gubbermint?

During the brief period of Democratic control of both houses and the Presidency, they were whirling and swirling around health care,