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Hi all trying to get some info on Adam 10m boats. I’m seriously contemplating buying one to optimize for IRC racing in Europe mainly Ireland and UK.

I hear rumors they are great IRC boats any info on ratings and how the race against J109s Arch A34 and similar would be great.

Our alternate plan is maybe to build one using same hull design and apendage shapes but update foil cross sections etc and take the hit for age allowance but efficiency could overcome this. We have a carbon rig available to drop into it also from my current boat and new sails etc maybe put a small prod and masthead A sails. Crazy idea but why try design a IRC perfect boat when allegedly the A10 already hits the sweet spot with its design.

Any info much appreciated as above really want to know can it compete against J109s and what ratings they have in Oz I see 1.010 seems to be average under IRC but the online results tend to be all one design class.

cheers.

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Most of the boats are located in Sydney, Belmont or Melbourne Australia. That's a helluva long way to go for a 10m boat.

If you really must spend all that $$$$$ on freight then maybe save a little by buying a fitted out hull and deck only.

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Savoir thanks for the info much appreciate if you know of any owners on here would be great to be able to contact them.

Do many of the boats race mixed IRC or is that only once or twice a year? Any J109s in the area also?

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47 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Gorn that is a sweet looking A10 but wonder what the mods have done to her IRC rating (if she even has one) and can she still meet cruiser racer status or only racer status, note it is worth a lot of points to remain cruiser racer by way of example a 1720 sport boat rates 1.019 but one with a few bunks and toilet and cooker rates .989.

Would love to get something rarely seen in Europe and do some damage against the established IRC favorable boats. Shipping fees etc wouldnt be too bad I have good links in that department and plenty of family all over OZ to store her until I arrange something cheap (and an OZ passport of my own). Now import duty to Ireland could be painful!!

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Didn't a certain TP 52 owner (and past Commadore of the Cathalic Youth Club) optimise a A10 for the Asian circuit a few years back?  I owned one for years and loved it but there are far better boats than them to burgle IRC trophies. Some might even be enjoyable to drive upwind. An A 10 ain't.

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Why not enjoyable ? They do 7 knots to windward and only the two forward crew get wet. In theory the clever owner will manage to sit further aft than that.

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IRC rating for Scarlet Runner is 1.014.

You'd never be able to convince anyone that an Adams 10 was a cruiser/racer, straight up racer, standard ones are a bare shell inside, if you want cruiser/racer look at the Adams 10.6.

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This is the class facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Adams10m/

Phil used to be the A10 class expert around here but these days he is too busy flogging hardware and making his next million. Send him a PM.

If you are OK about paying the freight then think about buying a new hull and deck then fit your own custom keel and rudder. That should save about 500 lbs.

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https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/cromer/sail-boats/adams-10-thebird-race-ready/1182639401

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/marks-point/sail-boats/adams-10-metre-sailing-yacht/1181731596

https://www.sail-world.com/USA/Phuket-Kings-Cup-2012-–-What-is-old-is-new-again/-104320?source=google.au

The 3rd link leads to an article about optimisation.

Adams was well ahead of his time in many ways, but as far as I know, ratings never crossed his mind when he was putting pencil to paper.

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1 hour ago, savoir said:

Why not enjoyable ? They do 7 knots to windward and only the two forward crew get wet. In theory the clever owner will manage to sit further aft than that.

It was more about the weather helm due to the transom hung rudder than the dampness factor. Mine was a centreboarder so pointing wasn't its greatest attribute. Ton of fun reaching in pressure though.

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No they made a few of them for up here. Stub keel with a unweighted board that folded up into it. We did a couple of Gladstone races in it. 

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All thanks for the great info and number of responses much appreciated.

Savoir do they still make new A10 hulls in OZ do you know of anyone who i can contact?

I have a designer I would like to work with to place more efficient yet same shape more or less rudder and keel on her and then transplant my existing carbon Southern Spar rig onto her using my current sail plan including short Assy pole for A sails. Assuming chain plate locations are or can be modified to same position.

In effect I keep my sport boat but can transfer everything to the IRC optimised A10 for IRC racing. Two boats in one. 

Also plan would be to fit out down below with head, light weight bunks and galley to meet IRC cruiser racer and gain a better hull factor.

I'm liking the water line length as most IRC winning boats in our class are longer ( think J109 JPK 10.8 Arc A35) and get to windward faster being a rocket down wind just doesn't help as the legs are never long enough and passing lanes narrow.

What are the hulls usually made of? wondering if a neglected hull could be bought for little cash and reused but all depends on water ingress and osmosis.

I completely rebuilt my Dibley 8M 3 years ago so not afraid to get the hands dirty and love older boats that were well ahead of their time.

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I don't know the builder's name.

Be careful about buying an old one. The hull will be soft and bendy.

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1 hour ago, savoir said:

I don't know the builder's name.

Be careful about buying an old one. The hull will be soft and bendy.

Indeed. They will be at least 30 years old and are heavy as shit compared to a modern design. I think there are many better options. 

The snake boxes were a good ride 30 years ago but the world has moved on. 

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You could email Graeme Radford, he worked with Joe Adams and took over the design office when Joe resigned.

He has helped optimise a few 10’s in his time.

probably still has the original lines, or could help turbo one,

http://www.radford-yacht.com/

thinking about European designs, what about a Waarschip 1010, it probably has the same age allowance, has a cruising interior, and is about a ton lighter.

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Linky

Do a google search on Waarschip1010 & look what comes up - pretty cool yacht 

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15 hours ago, ronan.stack@gmail.com said:

All thanks for the great info and number of responses much appreciated.

Savoir do they still make new A10 hulls in OZ do you know of anyone who i can contact?

I have a designer I would like to work with to place more efficient yet same shape more or less rudder and keel on her and then transplant my existing carbon Southern Spar rig onto her using my current sail plan including short Assy pole for A sails. Assuming chain plate locations are or can be modified to same position.

In effect I keep my sport boat but can transfer everything to the IRC optimised A10 for IRC racing. Two boats in one. 

Also plan would be to fit out down below with head, light weight bunks and galley to meet IRC cruiser racer and gain a better hull factor.

I'm liking the water line length as most IRC winning boats in our class are longer ( think J109 JPK 10.8 Arc A35) and get to windward faster being a rocket down wind just doesn't help as the legs are never long enough and passing lanes narrow.

What are the hulls usually made of? wondering if a neglected hull could be bought for little cash and reused but all depends on water ingress and osmosis.

I completely rebuilt my Dibley 8M 3 years ago so not afraid to get the hands dirty and love older boats that were well ahead of their time.

Ronan, 

I think the Boat you are looking for is the Adams 10.6 and not the Adams 10.

 

The reason is the Adams 10.6 is the same hull as the Adams 10 just lengthened and I think a little more freeboard. The 10.6 was made to be a more of a cruiser/ racer than the 10 flush deck. The 10  also had a cruising version as well with a different deck moulding on it as well. The 10.6 was a updated 10 with a new deck mould and a better keel / rudder and a bow sprit. It was designed for the melbourne to Osaka race from memory. The 10.6 has most of the fit out that you require. The only problem it had I think is the headroom As it’s under 6 foot.

 

As it’s a Adams 10 hull it should still be able to get the same age allowance as the Adams 10 and it’s still a low tech layup. On sailboat data first build date for a Adams 10.6 is in 1980 same as the Adams 10. 

 

Its worth having a look at and may be a better option for your needs. As far as transport it will still fit into a container for transport.

 

pulpit

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Thanks Everyone great info and discussions!

Pulpit,

I guess the question is really "what does it rate" and how do either boat do against J109s which dominate IRC racing in class 1 Ireland.

If it can compete against a J109 my idea is a runner if not then back to the drawing board or I may as well just start looking a a J109.

Rating needs to be above 1.000 to even make it into class 1 in most Irish competitions.

Minch I see the results thanks for the link but not sure they are IRC based races?

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There's an Adams 10m that races out of Lymington or at least used to called Boomerang. Absolute bandit of a boat but well sailed. was pretty useful in 2h stuffs too. I'm pretty sure she rates around 1.000 these days

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Ronan,

 

Look up Adams 10 “Scarlett Runner”. Sail number “Sm9”.  This boat is currently for sale in Australia. It is the Boat that Rob Date who used to own the RP52 “Scarlett Runner” did up as a fun Boat in Melbourne. It’s said that he spent close on $150k on this boat in doing it up and making it rate on IRC. The ratingvthat I found for the Boat on the Australian Yachting web site is 1.014. 

 

They are advertising it for just under $50k

 

pulpit

 

 

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Roman

if you really want to buy and Adams 10 I have one for sale  - Named Longshot - needsto be optimised but for $A17000 is a good buy.

Contact me on yachtie@optusnet.com.au and I can provide pictures and detail.

 

Cheers

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MMmnn Adams10s eh? Did sail them for several decades.

Yes there is one in England and one in Asia and I think in NZ  too. In NSW they all sail one design and in Victoria they also race to their rating. The one in England was a good boat when racing in Sydney, haven't seen it since it went to Vic and then shipped to the UK.

You can have a new one if so desired, I believe that Phil West can assist at Sheerline Spars. The moulds are still up at West Gosford.

As for making the next $$$, I'd love to be able to pay myself.

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Adams 10's are a big dinghy to sail and a dream to drive upwind and a crazy to drive (no helm) downwind with the mast head kites in breeze. The trimmers have the helm when that is the case as well as during mark roundings thanks to the big overlapping headsail. 

I sold my boat a few years ago now and something you would need to look out for is what era it was built. Mine had no frames and was getting pretty soft but then again it is an early 1980's build.  More recent blue lines and after are holding strong from when I was in the class and looked after their website which no longer exists as they are on Facebook only.

As for Phil aka Dad earning the big bucks, he wishes hahahaha! I would still own an Adams 10!

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Good grief !   Phil AND Mel on the same thread at the same time. That hasn't happened since 2008 or thereabouts.

Who the bloody hell is minding the store ?

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I think the key point is we are both in the warehouse so on a computer today hahaha. Plus it is Winter...  I have been visiting but not posting the last few years with just the occasional post here and there. 

Couldn't leave someone thinking the 10's are not a dream to drive! 

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All Supergroove needs to update on IRC is to move the mast back 300mm. The Spreaders are so swept back you could just about leave the chain plates where they are. The bigger jibs will make a difference, and with the extra J your kite penalties will reduce.

Then put on a light weight carbon boom that is 500mm shorter, and add a powerhead main.

Next take 150kg off the bulb and put it in the bilge by the centre case. The smaller bulb will more than pay for itself in less drag.

Next shorten the prod and match the pole to whatever % over J seems to be the new default.

Lastly put pretty squabs in the interior. As it is fully faired and has windows you should have a good case for a review of the hull factor - especially given age date.

Too easy!

PS Hi Phil & Mel. Long time no speak.

 

 

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Time may have moved on in yacht design but the A 10s are still highly competitive boats under IRC. They used to kick the shit out of our local measured rating system, AMS, but the faceless ones who run that show took a hatchet to the A 10s ratings so its back to IRC where they are not invincible but bloody close to it. IIRC an A 10 raced at Cowes Week under IRC about ten years ago and did remarkably well. 

Designed by the late Joe Adams way back in 1976, they are awesome boats to sail, particularly in a breeze. And I haven't sailed a Ten for about 15 years or so now. A good friend once described sailing an Adams Ten as "better then two fucks at once". I have no idea how he came to that conclusion.

Interestingly the super modified Ten,  Scarlet Runner referred to upthread, used to be a flat top Ten, originally as Bob Tuckwell's "Pistol" out of Gosford and was our second "Sportscar" which we sold back in 1983. She has had an interesting history over the ensuing years and is largely unrecognisable from the boat we raced quite successfully back then. But then the alleged $AUS150K expenditure and clever mods by Steve Campbell and co would account for that. 

First pic is of the highly successful Executive Decision, a flat top A Ten taken a few years ago. Second pic is Scarlet Runner, the modified Ten now for sale.

14255287_A10ExecutiveDecision.thumb.JPG.2b7fb32a005fc20894240bf233a1d7bc.JPG

DSCN2198.thumb.jpg.fa19a570a07acdd0b4b85cb109a842a8.jpg

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Good paint job with a stealth bow you can be over slightly and get away with it...

 

33 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Ronan,

 

see the attached picture of Longshot658948078_IMGP6056LOngshot.thumb.JPG.b8aa275490328c916345cfcd3595b6b5.JPG

 

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We have a couple of Adams 10's regularly racing in IRC and beating an Archambult 35, sometimes across the line and mostly on handicap. 

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Speak to anyone from RYCV, they breed them there and have used them to hold the Association cup for most of the past decade. hahahahah

 

seriously, on IRC they rate and perform well

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From Radford Yacht design:

Sailing during this period included several more Sydney / Hobart Races, plus more of the coastal races in different designs ranging from the 66ft Helsal II to the Carina 44. Graham also owned two Adams 10m yachts which he mainly sailed on Sydney Harbour with Middle Harbour Yacht Club ... however in 1980 he took the flush deck A10m "Waggers II" in the Sydney / Hobart Race - one of two flush deck 10's to compete in Sydney / Hobart races. While a capable offshore sailing yacht the 10's were very small inside and lacked for comfort with "headroom" of only 4'2"!

I think the other one was called SPIRIT, from Lake Macquarie, anyone remember?

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10 hours ago, huwp said:

Speak to anyone from RYCV, they breed them there and have used them to hold the Association cup for most of the past decade. hahahahah

 

seriously, on IRC they rate and perform well

The E.B Green Trophy for the best performing IRC boat in the Association Cup has plenty of non Adams 10 names on it!

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19 hours ago, Bilbo said:

Ronan,

 

see the attached picture of Longshot658948078_IMGP6056LOngshot.thumb.JPG.b8aa275490328c916345cfcd3595b6b5.JPG

One of my photos from a few months ago.

KO9A2015-X5.jpg

 

 

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Thank you all for the input.

PIty we don't seem to know how they go against J109s.

With a rating of 1.010 the A10 is approx same rating but gives up the water line of the J109 so I would guess upwind they cant keep in touch. A10 should beat them downwind in W/L with the huge symmetric but would have its work cut out in any Olympic triangle or mark course on tight reaches against he Assymetric kites on the J109.

As with all results even if we had some against J109s you will never know if the crews on each boat were pro or not prepared at all so unless someone is in a club with a good spectrum of J109s A35 etc racing against a few A10s its hard to know how they would perform without that first hand knowledge.

From the UK boat "Boomerang" I see its can beat J105s in club level but no J109 info to date.

On s seperate note: Why is it that most Aussie club and regatta result never note boat type only name and sail number? have to go searching each name and sail no to find out manufacturer or maybe that the whole idea?

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On 6/12/2018 at 6:07 AM, Jono said:

All Supergroove needs to update on IRC is to move the mast back 300mm. The Spreaders are so swept back you could just about leave the chain plates where they are. The bigger jibs will make a difference, and with the extra J your kite penalties will reduce.

Then put on a light weight carbon boom that is 500mm shorter, and add a powerhead main.

Next take 150kg off the bulb and put it in the bilge by the centre case. The smaller bulb will more than pay for itself in less drag.

Next shorten the prod and match the pole to whatever % over J seems to be the new default.

Lastly put pretty squabs in the interior. As it is fully faired and has windows you should have a good case for a review of the hull factor - especially given age date.

Too easy!

PS Hi Phil & Mel. Long time no speak.

 

 

Hi Jono nice to hear from you again. SG is doing well being carefully cared for as always.

When are you coming over for to Ireland to guest helm for us, bring Kevin Dibley with you also!!

IRC is a very fickle game and we have spent over 15 years optimizing different boats for it with my friends. We have a very good understanding now of what changes work.

Issue is SG will never be IRC friendly we have gone form 1.045 to 1.008 in 3 years without giving up much performance but still loose to J109s A35 JPK 10.8 etc by about 3-4 min even in a perfect race with zero tactical errors etc, the J109s all rate close to SG current rating so at least we no longer give them time. They are just too fast upwind against our 8M water line. Downwind we own them but passing lanes are few and they fight always.

Regarding your points..

  1. Moving mast back increases fore triangle so will result in a lower rating as the head sails will be lower % but if you go back and put a 100-105% head sail on it will in fact increase again as that new head sail is larger.
  2. We have a power head North 3DI main and a full square top main also. The power head is better, its also a reduced main size so the E measurement and mid/top girth measurements also reduced this took 10 point off our rating this year. (Also note some sport bats got a 5 point general reduction this year from the RORC to make them more competitive (Farr 280 MUMM 30 FE28 ETC) us included,  to bring us to 1.020 from 1.025)
  3. Moving the mast back the STL pole length will increase if this is done as it measures from mast face so an increase there. Shortening prod after doing it will only bring that measurement back to where it was or if shortening beyond old STL then only a very minor change of about 1-2 points.
  4. Weight out of the bulb and into the hull I agree with less drag but IRC wont reduce much maybe 1-2 points as overall weight is the same and cost is high for such a change. Upwind it wont help really were hitting max displacement speeds already upwind and off the wind speed is never an issue. Its also expensive.
  5. Interior is fully fitted out with small galley and 4 cushioned berths but unless you have a toilet plumbed permanently then RORC wont give it a cruiser racer status. FYI cruiser racer status is worth a 20 point reduction on this size boat immediately so best idea is to install a toilet which is madness but that is IRC for you and this is why I hate the rating it should be about sails, foil, rig and hull not the head!

Funny thing is if we installed a toilet and made the changes as above it could add up to a 24 point reduction and probably very little change to the performance and would bring us down into class 2 so it could be a winner for us against a completely different type of boat but our main interest with SG is the mixed sport boat classes annually which have no band so any reduction would be great.

Apart form maybe a carbon fiber IRC endorsed shitter I dont think I'm going to make any more changes she just doesn't have the Water line to beat the class 1 lead mines. Even stranger IRC could refuse to endorse a cruiser racer reclassification and resulting hull factor change even with a new toilet unless we can prove we have a need for it, happily our trimmer has IBS and is always asking when it being installed!!!

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Because everyone at the club knows what kind of boats they are sailing against? We don't have a national PHS system here and club handicaps are not transferable from club to club as every club is working off a differant base to suit its own fleet. 

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On 6/12/2018 at 1:03 PM, Mel said:

Adams 10's are a big dinghy to sail and a dream to drive upwind 

Been a while since you have driven a dinghy! 

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Been a while since you have driven a dinghy! 

hahaha actually it was after I sold the yacht! 

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13 hours ago, HILLY said:

From Radford Yacht design:

Sailing during this period included several more Sydney / Hobart Races, plus more of the coastal races in different designs ranging from the 66ft Helsal II to the Carina 44. Graham also owned two Adams 10m yachts which he mainly sailed on Sydney Harbour with Middle Harbour Yacht Club ... however in 1980 he took the flush deck A10m "Waggers II" in the Sydney / Hobart Race - one of two flush deck 10's to compete in Sydney / Hobart races. While a capable offshore sailing yacht the 10's were very small inside and lacked for comfort with "headroom" of only 4'2"!

I think the other one was called SPIRIT, from Lake Macquarie, anyone remember?

Yes the second one was Spirit. She did the race the same year I raced on Touchwood, we were much more comfortable. 

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3 hours ago, ronan.stack@gmail.com said:

Hi Jono nice to hear from you again. SG is doing well being carefully cared for as always.

When are you coming over for to Ireland to guest helm for us, bring Kevin Dibley with you also!!

IRC is a very fickle game and we have spent over 15 years optimizing different boats for it with my friends. We have a very good understanding now of what changes work.

Issue is SG will never be IRC friendly we have gone form 1.045 to 1.008 in 3 years without giving up much performance but still loose to J109s A35 JPK 10.8 etc by about 3-4 min even in a perfect race with zero tactical errors etc, the J109s all rate close to SG current rating so at least we no longer give them time. They are just too fast upwind against our 8M water line. Downwind we own them but passing lanes are few and they fight always.

Regarding your points..

  1. Moving mast back increases fore triangle so will result in a lower rating as the head sails will be lower % but if you go back and put a 100-105% head sail on it will in fact increase again as that new head sail is larger.
  2. We have a power head North 3DI main and a full square top main also. The power head is better, its also a reduced main size so the E measurement and mid/top girth measurements also reduced this took 10 point off our rating this year. (Also note some sport bats got a 5 point general reduction this year from the RORC to make them more competitive (Farr 280 MUMM 30 FE28 ETC) us included,  to bring us to 1.020 from 1.025)
  3. Moving the mast back the STL pole length will increase if this is done as it measures from mast face so an increase there. Shortening prod after doing it will only bring that measurement back to where it was or if shortening beyond old STL then only a very minor change of about 1-2 points.
  4. Weight out of the bulb and into the hull I agree with less drag but IRC wont reduce much maybe 1-2 points as overall weight is the same and cost is high for such a change. Upwind it wont help really were hitting max displacement speeds already upwind and off the wind speed is never an issue. Its also expensive.
  5. Interior is fully fitted out with small galley and 4 cushioned berths but unless you have a toilet plumbed permanently then RORC wont give it a cruiser racer status. FYI cruiser racer status is worth a 20 point reduction on this size boat immediately so best idea is to install a toilet which is madness but that is IRC for you and this is why I hate the rating it should be about sails, foil, rig and hull not the head!

Funny thing is if we installed a toilet and made the changes as above it could add up to a 24 point reduction and probably very little change to the performance and would bring us down into class 2 so it could be a winner for us against a completely different type of boat but our main interest with SG is the mixed sport boat classes annually which have no band so any reduction would be great.

Apart form maybe a carbon fiber IRC endorsed shitter I dont think I'm going to make any more changes she just doesn't have the Water line to beat the class 1 lead mines. Even stranger IRC could refuse to endorse a cruiser racer reclassification and resulting hull factor change even with a new toilet unless we can prove we have a need for it, happily our trimmer has IBS and is always asking when it being installed!!!

Your highlighted text confirms what we had all figured out down here: IRC is a SHITHOUSE rule!

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Here's my modified Adams Ten - done for solo and shorthanded sailing - has a fit out - toilet, galley, nav area, inboard diesel etc.

Never had it measured for IRC, but had it strengthened and it would be Cat 1 compliant. Square top makes her almost unbeatable in light breezes.

Torquil.jpg

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On 6/14/2018 at 1:50 AM, mccroc said:

Here's my modified Adams Ten - done for solo and shorthanded sailing - has a fit out - toilet, galley, nav area, inboard diesel etc.

Never had it measured for IRC, but had it strengthened and it would be Cat 1 compliant. Square top makes her almost unbeatable in light breezes.

Torquil.jpg

Nicely done. 

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