Go4asail

Rules Question...

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Situation - sailing in a mixed PHRF fleet. 10 knot day.  Starting sequence underway and in the last minute.  My boat a 100+ PHRF competitor. Other boat is half my PHRF#.  I am leeward and ahead with no overlap.  He is windward through the whole exchange.

Both boats heading to the pin end to start.  I am in front with fast boat coming from clear astern to pass me.  We both run Prostarts so distance to line is known with loads of room to run to the pin, but very little to the actual starting line.

I come up, I ask him to come up when he starts to get an overlap. He does and keeps rolling. Now he is about mid ship to me I ask him to come up more he does but now we are running out of time and distance to the start line.  He’s going to be over.  Now he begin to accelerate and come down onto me.  Trying to stay below the line and stall me out as he begins to pass forward.  I keep asking him to come up but he will not.

What should the leeward boat do in this situation?  He’s made it abundantly clear he’s not going up and is in fact coming down to keep from going OCS.  If I tap him to reinforce the point he is not stating clear I get tossed because we are suppposed to avoid collision.

What should I do?  Can anyone clarify this for me?

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It seems pretty easy to me. You were leeward boat and had luffing rights. Drive him up next time. Rule - 14b

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Hail Protest. Fly your flag. File the form if he doesn't promptly take a penalty. This is a simple rule 11 (windward leeward) situation. There are also rule 2 (fair sailing) implications here because you claim he is deliberately breaking a rule to gain an advantage, but a rule 11 protest will probably get the point across. 

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What happens if we touch. 

 

Or worse we touch and the boats sustain damage?

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6 minutes ago, Go4asail said:

So how far to drive him up?  Until we are in irons?

Just enough to force him over early. Rules don’t just protect you, they are swords you can yield sometimes. This is one of those times. Pick your battles of course, but he bullied you down and you obliged. You should have at bear minimum protested. As far as contact goes, see Rule 14

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never hit, touch or tap. Throw the flag and avoid otherwise you will get tossed too.

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12 minutes ago, Go4asail said:

What happens if we touch. 

 

Or worse we touch and the boats sustain damage?

If you touch, you will be DSQ.

However, if there is no damage (or injury), then you should be exonerated by the PC. The other boat is flat out DSQ.

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I didn’t mean to imply this is NASCAR and rubbin’s racin’. Just that you should have perhaps started to close the gate a little earlier.

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47 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

If you touch, you will be DSQ.

However, if there is no damage (or injury), then you should be exonerated by the PC. The other boat is flat out DSQ.

Not in all cases.

If you (leeward boat) alter course without giving the overtaking boat room and opportunity to keep clear and there is contact then leeward is wrong. Any other case - hold course, hail then come up, windward comes down or does not keep clear and there is contact then leeward will not be DSQ. If there is damage then windward (or whoever was in the wrong) is obliged to retire promptly.

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1 hour ago, Go4asail said:

So how far to drive him up?  Until we are in irons?

There's a difference here between what you can do and what you should do. Under rule 11 you can take him up as far as head to wind if you want, although in this instance it sounds like that would have put you over early as well. So I'd say just enough to make your start and if that pushes him over so much the better.

And no "asking" or other hail is required, you can just come up as long as you give him enough room to keep clear (rule 16.1). But in my opinion hailing can help you in the protest room - it makes it completely clear that you wanted him to come up and he knew that you wanted him to come up. If you keep hailing "coming up" and he doesn't come up (and you get very, very close to him), you should be able to make the protest stick without tapping him.

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You should have yelled protest and thrown the flag, but in the future perhaps you may need to defend your position earlier.  One potential scenario is that you waited to come up until he had an overlap, as you felt that if you came up earlier he would give you the hook and reverse the roles.  You had all the rights to take him to the moon, and hopefully would have been close enough to convince him of such else prove your point in the protest room.  I see it all too often that while the leeward boat desires the windward boat to head up, the windward boat feels they have plenty of room and opportunity to do so and is waiting for the leeward to prove their verbal point before doing so and taking advantage of the situation as you describe.

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Sail your race, to make your best start altering course appropriately to allow windward boat opportunity to keep clear.

Note that if you wait too long, and allow him to get too close and a bit forward, you may have to bear away as he "cant't keep" clear if you then head up as his stern will swing i

If you have to avoid, protest. 

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3 hours ago, Go4asail said:

What should I do?  Can anyone clarify this for me?

If the windward boat (W) gets into a position where the leeward boat (L) cannot change course, either to windward or to leeward without immediately making contact, W has failed to keep clear (Definitions:  keep clear) and broken rule 11.  L may, and should protest, and expect to succeed.

If  L changes course because she reasonably apprehends that if she does not there will be a collision, W has failed to keep clear and broken rule 11 (Case 50).  L may, and should protest and expect to succeed.

3 hours ago, Kevlar Edge said:

never hit, touch or tap. Throw the flag and avoid otherwise you will get tossed too.

Good advice.  In OP scenario, both boats are beam reaching probably at relatively high speed:  ANY contact in those conditions risks damage and no exoneration under rule 14( b ).

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As others have said, this is a clear Rule 11 breach, as described, and you absolutely should protest. "Tapping to make a point", though, went out with the institution of Rule 14, and it's not worth the risk, either to your race or to everyone's gelcoat.

I would add one thing to consider, though. While I'm not sure about a Rule 2 protest's chances of success, RRS 44.1(b) says that if a boat breaks a rule and "...despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach, her penalty shall be to retire." On a starting line, forcing a competitor into the second row might well be construed as gaining "a significant advantage...by her breach" in some circumstances, so it's quite possible that simply doing turns may not be enough to clear her penalty (for example, at the end of a series, if that competitor needs you to have a finish in the cheap seats, driving you into the fleet at the start might well get you there). If those circumstances apply, it's worth considering filing a protest even after the offender spins.

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Brass is dead-on. This is a pretty clear situation.

When the other boat is astern, they must keep clear of you. Your only obligation under the rules is to not change course so suddenly that they cannot avoid you. Slowing down is fine.

When they get an overlap and start to pass you on your windward side, they -still- must keep clear. Again, you are obligated to not change course so suddenly that they cannot keep clear, but they must respond to continue keeping clear. You may turn towards the wind as far as head-to-wind, and they have to continue keeping clear. If they go over the start line early, too bad for them.

If they turn towards you, and you have to change course to keep clear of them, then you should protest them (as so many others have said).

A lot of sailors have the idea that protesting is bad. That's not true. Protesting is how we enforce the rules in this sport. When a skipper breaks the rules, sometimes they know they've made a mistake and do penalty turns; sometimes they don't think they've made a mistake and that's when you have a protest meeting. It's worth knowing how these things go.

FB- Doug

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7 hours ago, Go4asail said:

What happens if we touch. 

 

Or worse we touch and the boats sustain damage?

Protest and toss him.

We have the same shit in our Wednesday racing. Far more aggressive than the weekend shit.

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2 hours ago, Katydid said:

I would add one thing to consider, though. While I'm not sure about a Rule 2 protest's chances of success, RRS 44.1(b) says that if a boat breaks a rule and "...despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach, her penalty shall be to retire." On a starting line, forcing a competitor into the second row might well be construed as gaining "a significant advantage...by her breach" in some circumstances, so it's quite possible that simply doing turns may not be enough to clear her penalty (for example, at the end of a series, if that competitor needs you to have a finish in the cheap seats, driving you into the fleet at the start might well get you there). If those circumstances apply, it's worth considering filing a protest even after the offender spins.

The advantage W gains by not keeping clear is to avoid being OCS.

It will be arguable whether or not a two turns penalty will 'wash off' the advantage gained leaving W with a significant advantage.

If W broke rule 11 with the intention to gain an advantage by not going OCS, then she certainly broke rule 2.

W has all sorts of dog ate my homework excuses, starting with 'we were miles away from the line, I would never have been over, and I did my turns', moving through to 'I was just about to come up and keep clear when my foot slipped:  It was a 'haxident''.

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On 6/11/2018 at 11:42 PM, Brass said:

It will be arguable whether or not a two turns penalty will 'wash off' the advantage gained leaving W with a significant advantage....

W has all sorts of dog ate my homework excuses, starting with 'we were miles away from the line, I would never have been over, and I did my turns', moving through to 'I was just about to come up and keep clear when my foot slipped:  It was a 'haxident''.

...hence my uncertainty about the outcome of a Rule 2 protest. Actually, W doesn't have to assert that she knows she wasn't near the line, just that she didn't think so, and was trying to remain clear, but not fast enough. If she can cast doubt on either her intentions or whether an advantage was gained after the penalty turns, a Rule 2 breach is arguable, in my view. By contrast, if the advantage after penalty is clear, so is the provision in 44.1(b) that turns aren't enough to exonerate her for the breach, and intentions don't enter into it.

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What you need is a reputation of rubbing if needed. At that point the guy on the other boat knows if you look like coming up you're coming up. 

One thing that has worked for me if the other guy looks like he's going to sit on me is to call loudly "coming up in 1. 2. 3." Then push the helm down. Looks good on the GoPro too, giving warning and all. 

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