Dear Dr. Rules

[NOYC Reporter from a FARR 3]

Dear Dr. Rules,

If a bridge is listed as a mark of a course in the SI's. If you touch it, do you spin? If you touch it and don't spin, is it a DSQ?

[Glenn McCarthy 54]

DSQ.

Had a boat hit their mast into a bridge, the bridge was a mark of the course, they didn't spin, didn't get protested, and got away with it.

[ryley 97]

it's listed as a mark of the course, so 31 says you can't touch it. a single spin exonerates you (44.1). if you don't spin, is it a dsq? Well, did another boat protest under 60.1? Did the RC? Did they do it within the time limit? If the answer to these questions is no, then I don't think you can DSQ the boat. Should the skipper RAF? It sure was close between 1st and 2nd...

[ryley 97]

oh and btw, it looks like you had as much wind as we had on block island saturday. maybe a bit more.

[TJSoCal 18]

Definition of "mark" says it's an object which a boat is required to leave on a specified side. I think this implies passing to port or starboard, "beneath" isn't really a side. It's impossible to leave the deck of the bridge on either side and still pass under the bridge. So I could interpret it that a bridge pylon could be a mark, but the bridge deck probably an obstruction but not part of the mark.

How were the SIs worded?

[JoeBleaux 15]

[r.finn 72]

22 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Definition of "mark" says it's an object which a boat is required to leave on a specified side. I think this implies passing to port or starboard, "beneath" isn't really a side. It's impossible to leave the deck of the bridge on either side and still pass under the bridge. So I could interpret it that a bridge pylon could be a mark, but the bridge deck probably an obstruction but not part of the mark.

How were the SIs worded?

The specific side in this case is you must sail beneath the bridge.

[fan 5]

So if you are sailing around an Island and you run aground do you have to spin? Or are the pillars of bridge and the part of an island that’s underwater treated like the anchor line on a mark and not part of said mark?

[SailFast-LiveLong 4]

With or without the Protest call, do your turns.  You earned them, do them.  

If you don't, you and your crew will know you will cheat if no one is looking.

 

 

[Brass 52]

54 minutes ago, fan said:

So if you are sailing around an Island and you run aground do you have to spin? Or are the pillars of bridge and the part of an island that’s underwater treated like the anchor line on a mark and not part of said mark?

Depends how the SI are written.

If the SI just specify as the mark 'XXX Island' then the shore and underwater ground forming part of the island form part of the mark.

If the SI specify the mark as 'the summit of XXX Island' then a boat can't possibly touch the mark.

I have some trouble with a bridge specified as a mark:  seemingly a boat is required to pass through the mark, but if the SI say it's a mark then rule 31 applies and I'd be confident that the piers or pylons (or indeed the abutments) form part of the bridge.

A pier or pylon is plainly NOT an 'anchor line', nor is it 'an object 'accidentally attached'

[Mark Set 54]

2 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Definition of "mark" says it's an object which a boat is required to leave on a specified side. I think this implies passing to port or starboard, "beneath" isn't really a side. It's impossible to leave the deck of the bridge on either side and still pass under the bridge. So I could interpret it that a bridge pylon could be a mark, but the bridge deck probably an obstruction but not part of the mark.

How were the SIs worded?

so you arent penalized for hitting a starting mark? dont think so. that is not the definition of mark you made that up.

[Jackdaw 27]

4 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

so you arent penalized for hitting a starting mark? dont think so. that is not the definition of mark you made that up.

 

Um I think that's EXACTLY how the RRS define 'mark' 

[Mark Set 54]

2 minutes ago, Jackdaw said:

 

Um I think that's EXACTLY how the RRS define 'mark' 

run into a committee boat, see if they make you do turns.

[scottyMO 0]

2 hours ago, fan said:

So if you are sailing around an Island and you run aground do you have to spin? Or are the pillars of bridge and the part of an island that’s underwater treated like the anchor line on a mark and not part of said mark?

So wait, you’re in a race, sailing around an island and you run aground ....

[Jackdaw 27]

30 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

run into a committee boat, see if they make you do turns.

I'm not arguing that point. Just pointing out that this is the actual definition.

 

Maybe they would be better served calling the bridge a gate, and not a mark. Note that that the SIs say 'mark or passage'. Interesting.

[WoobaGooba 7]

49 minutes ago, Mark Set said:

run into a committee boat, see if they make you do turns.

Been there, done that, did turn.

[Rawhide 17]

Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified
side, and pa race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which
the starting or finishing line extends. An anchor line or an object attached
accidentally to a mark is not part of it.

Doesn't look like the bridge meets the definition of a Mark. No turn required as far as I can see. 

Should have been a simple comment in the SI"s, you can go through any span etc. 

 

[Alcatraz5768 121]

1 hour ago, Mark Set said:

run into a committee boat, see if they make you do turns.

if you can complete your turns, you didn't hit the committee boat hard enough. 

[HFC Hunter 73]

Slap My Bridge Up!

[JoeBleaux 15]

From the SI’s. They even had it highlighted. 

59 minutes ago, Rawhide said:

Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified
side, and pa race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which
the starting or finishing line extends. An anchor line or an object attached
accidentally to a mark is not part of it.

Doesn't look like the bridge meets the definition of a Mark. No turn required as far as I can see. 

Should have been a simple comment in the SI"s, you can go through any span etc. 

 

 

 

[r.finn 72]

16 minutes ago, JoeBleaux said:

From the SI’s. They even had it highlighted. 

 

 

NO!  (b) stands for below!  Whoever sent this pic to SA should be hired by an ad firm for their click bait skills.

[Brass 52]

12 minutes ago, r.finn said:

NO!  ( b ) stands for below!  Whoever sent this pic to SA should be hired by an ad firm for their click bait skills.

And ( a ) stands for 'above'?

So ( a )( b ) stands for 'above or below', like a vertical reverse gate?

I think rawhide is probably right:  the SI do not 'require a boat to leave' the bridges on any 'specified side'.

I think the bridges are not marks.

Is it possible to sail the course without going under the bridges?  That might change my mind.

[Glenoid 9]

Looks like most , if not all, of the commenters above have not gotten over their failures of the LSAT's, back in their "own " days. Jeeeze.... we do this stuff for recreation, no? Did anybody die here?  Do y'all hear a squeak when you walk? Keep sailing, until it ain't fun anymore.

[Jackdaw 27]

2 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified
side, and pa race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which
the starting or finishing line extends. An anchor line or an object attached
accidentally to a mark is not part of it.

Doesn't look like the bridge meets the definition of a Mark. No turn required as far as I can see. 

Should have been a simple comment in the SI"s, you can go through any span etc. 

 

 

This.

 And the SIs say 'mark or passage' in the list. Marks are listed with a side to pass. Passages just get footnotes about bridge operation. No spins.

 

[NOYC Reporter from a FARR 3]

If we wave the do not touch the mark rule, why not start racing sailboats like this?

 

[Rawhide 17]

6 hours ago, JoeBleaux said:

From the SI’s. They even had it highlighted. 

 

 

That's nice that its highlighted. But mark in Rule 31 is a defined term. So unless the sailing instructions state that they modify the definition in  the RRS there is no penalty for touching a bridge. 

[Timo42 16]

5 hours ago, Glenoid said:

Looks like most , if not all, of the commenters above have not gotten over their failures of the LSAT's, back in their "own " days. Jeeeze.... we do this stuff for recreation, no? Did anybody die here?  Do y'all hear a squeak when you walk? Keep sailing, until it ain't fun anymore.

You must be new here...

[Seasailor 1]

So are people saying that anyone who runs aground during the Round the Island Race should do a turn?

Could be interesting on Ryde Sands.

 

[Max Rockatansky 113]

The real question is ‘did R. gain advantage by her actions,’ isn’t it?

im not sure that getting pasted to the I-10 bridge is advantageous 

[d'ranger 717]

Or, is someone getting too big for their bridges?

[mechols 0]

Great discussion,   but moot unless you consider that they gained an advantage in a 39 mile race from a push off.

That is the Highway 90 highway bridge not the CSX railroad bridge.   There are two other railroad bridges that are potential exits from the lake.  Hence the listing in the course.

[ROADKILL666 1]

IS HE PUSHING OFF OR FENDING OFF?

[C. Spackler 5]

The BRIDGE is the deck cars drive on. That boat is touching the PILE which supports the bridge. The rules clearly specify only the bridge. Boat is 100% fine touching the piling. No DSQ. 
 

[bplipschitz 59]

34 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Or, is someone getting too big for their bridges?

Or, perhaps a bridge too far.

[OutofOffice 59]

It’s ok provided that, just after the fending off the piling, the boats speed is not greater than than it would have been in the absence of said push...

Yes I’m kidding. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Edit - If 42.3d allows a vessel to scull in the absence of ability to steer, 42.3h and 42.3i would be my defense if I were in his shoes. If they had all the crew members shoving off, then sure they were clearly looking to gain an advantage. However, one 160lb dude one arming a 5,000 lb boat off a piling? Doesn’t scream of “We’re gonna win now, boys”...

[ryley 97]

It would have been interesting to see how the local protest committee would have ruled on this one. alas, no one protested, so the results stand.

[Timo42 16]

8 minutes ago, ryley said:

It would have been interesting to see how the local protest committee would have ruled on this one. alas, no one protested, so the results stand.

There's always next year...

 

[ryley 97]

4 minutes ago, smokeandoakum said:

Another scenario: DIYC’s Egmont Race SI has a similar table listing the marks of the course and which side they are to be rounded or left.  For the Skyway bridge the table says “Through center 3-spans.”  I would argue the two outer piles of the center three spans are Marks because the SI’s require you to leave them on a “specified side.”  One pile must be left to port and the other pile must be left to starboard; in effect those piles are a “gate”.  Therefore, hitting either of the two outer piles which delineate the “center three spans” would require a penalty turn.

NOLA might consider making a similar change to their SI's, unless of course they don't care if someone touches a span as long as nobody gets hurt and the boat isn't damaged.

[OutofOffice 59]

27 minutes ago, ryley said:

they don't care if someone touches a span as long as nobody gets hurt and the boat isn't damaged.

I would imagine they don’t care. Every RC I’ve met of a “fun run race” has this viewpoint.

[hoofhearted 12]

 

[Boudreaux 1]

So I spoke with the players, and there's a lot more to this than the photo.  The SI's allow for auxiliary propulsion to safely clear the bridges, and clearly states a 4kt limit and that you shall not pass another boat while passing through the bridge.

Well, another boat in this race took advantage of the auxiliary propulsion to pass this boat underneath the bridge, positioned themselves on this boat's wind, and motored through at over 6 kts.  It was due to being blanketed by this passing boat that these fellows are struggling to safely pass through.  Would not have been an issue except for this other boats flouting of the rules and committing this unseamanlike act.

It being a "fun" race, no one decided to protest this misbehavior.

[stardude 1]

The first three letters of “funeral” are fun

[____G____ 0]

22 hours ago, NOYC Reporter from a FARR said:

Dear Dr. Rules,

If a bridge is listed as a mark of a course in the SI's. If you touch it, do you spin? If you touch it and don't spin, is it a DSQ?

 

I was actually there.  The rules in this race allowed for boats to use their motor within two boat lengths of the bridge for safety.   The wind was basically non existent and there was a current, if memory serves this boat didn't have an engine to use so they were left with fending off the bridge by hand.  The rest of us only escaped this problem by cranking up the diesels.  If you want to see this no wind action there is a nice video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsUk6-wUKv8&feature=youtu.be

 

[kevlar 14]

Looks to me that the bridges aren't marks. Some useless language in there but it's pretty clear. Since you have to pass underneath these bridges (unless you choose to fly above them with strength of mind and the fourth mode) this dude is ok for fending off the bridge abutment. It's not a mark. 

The bridges weren't listed as marks. Certainly adds some strategy and variable to a race to open a swing bridge.. last time I sailed through an opening the tender had some words for me.  

[kevlar 14]

32 minutes ago, ____G____ said:

I was actually there.  The rules in this race allowed for boats to use their motor within two boat lengths of the bridge for safety.   The wind was basically non existent and there was a current, if memory serves this boat didn't have an engine to use so they were left with fending off the bridge by hand.  The rest of us only escaped this problem by cranking up the diesels.  If you want to see this no wind action there is a nice video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsUk6-wUKv8&feature=youtu.be

 

Come to New York and do an Around Long Island Race. Last year our rounding of Montauk was rather slow. Current controlled us. We got close but managed our way through. It's part of the game. We would have used the engine if we risked grounding or were as close as this. Why is there no engine in the boat in OP's pic? 

[____G____ 0]

8 minutes ago, kevlar said:

Come to New York and do an Around Long Island Race. Last year our rounding of Montauk was rather slow. Current controlled us. We got close but managed our way through. It's part of the game. We would have used the engine if we risked grounding or were as close as this. Why is there no engine in the boat in OP's pic? 

I assume for weight, I believe he usually gets towed out to the starting mark

[Steam Flyer 923]

Just now, ____G____ said:

9 minutes ago, kevlar said:

Come to New York and do an Around Long Island Race. Last year our rounding of Montauk was rather slow. Current controlled us. We got close but managed our way through. It's part of the game. We would have used the engine if we risked grounding or were as close as this. Why is there no engine in the boat in OP's pic? 

I assume for weight, I believe he usually gets towed out to the starting mark

I understand all the districts are different, this would be a violation in our district. Boats are supposed to have radios, suitable ground tackle (ie no 8# anchors on string), engines, running lights (battery not specified but last time this was discussed, anybody sailing with running lights there were inoperable due to lack of battery would be deemed to not have running lights). THere's a list of seaworthiness requirements.

I guess this guy is nice enough to race against that he can get a tow regularly. Which is a plus.

FB- Doug

[ryley 97]

57 minutes ago, ____G____ said:

I was actually there.  The rules in this race allowed for boats to use their motor within two boat lengths of the bridge for safety.   The wind was basically non existent and there was a current, if memory serves this boat didn't have an engine to use so they were left with fending off the bridge by hand.  The rest of us only escaped this problem by cranking up the diesels.  If you want to see this no wind action there is a nice video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsUk6-wUKv8&feature=youtu.be

 

Hmm.. I'm pretty sure that most of our safety regs up here in the unenlightened north require a motor that can push the boat at hull speed. Yawl seem to have a much more relaxed approach.

[nolatom 105]

Wasn't there last Saturday, but been there.  It's a swing bridge, so you don't go "beneath" it, just through it.   In the main span, there are wood fenders, designed to be rubbed against (okay, by steel barges mostly, it's a tricky bridge in a tideway).  So as long as you don't "propel" yourself but just "fend", I kinda think a protest would neither be made, nor upheld.

[____G____ 0]

27 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I understand all the districts are different, this would be a violation in our district. Boats are supposed to have radios, suitable ground tackle (ie no 8# anchors on string), engines, running lights (battery not specified but last time this was discussed, anybody sailing with running lights there were inoperable due to lack of battery would be deemed to not have running lights). THere's a list of seaworthiness requirements.

I guess this guy is nice enough to race against that he can get a tow regularly. Which is a plus.

FB- Doug

Hmm you know I never thought about it all the boats im on have engines.  I know we don't have them on dinghys that race, but I have no idea where the line is drawn that the boat is to big not to have an engine (but you'd think it would be a requirement of a 40nm race).  Yeah we are pretty relaxed only a few total assholes.  But you got to stay relaxed in Louisiana heat.

[Expatriated 29]

21 hours ago, Brass said:

Depends how the SI are written.

If the SI just specify as the mark 'XXX Island' then the shore and underwater ground forming part of the island form part of the mark.

If the SI specify the mark as 'the summit of XXX Island' then a boat can't possibly touch the mark.

I have some trouble with a bridge specified as a mark:  seemingly a boat is required to pass through the mark, but if the SI say it's a mark then rule 31 applies and I'd be confident that the piers or pylons (or indeed the abutments) form part of the bridge.

A pier or pylon is plainly NOT an 'anchor line', nor is it 'an object 'accidentally attached'

Nope - running aground going round an island is not touching a mark. Think about if you hit the ground tackle of a mark but not the mark itself you haven't touched the mark or if you anchor do you think the anchor has touched the isalnd - well I guess a good throw could get the anchor onto a beach at times.

[TJSoCal 18]

32 minutes ago, Expatriated said:

Nope - running aground going round an island is not touching a mark. Think about if you hit the ground tackle of a mark but not the mark itself you haven't touched the mark or if you anchor do you think the anchor has touched the isalnd - well I guess a good throw could get the anchor onto a beach at times.

I think I would agree with this - you could argue that "island" is only the land portion above the water's surface. So if you run aground in shallow water near an island you have not touched the island. If you're up on the beach you've touched the mark (but probably have bigger problems than a one-turn penalty).

On the original topic, I think looking at the sailing instructions I could say that the route under the bridge is a required passage (not defined in the rules so common usage applies), but the race committee has chosen not to bound the passage with marks which must be taken on a specific side. So the bridge piers (and potentially the deck, if it's low enough that someone's mast could hit it) are obstructions but no part of the bridge is a mark and there's no penalty for touching it. That's the approach I'd take if I was defending myself in the room anyway...

[Brass 52]

48 minutes ago, Expatriated said:

22 hours ago, Brass said:

If the SI just specify as the mark 'XXX Island' then the shore and underwater ground forming part of the island form part of the mark.

A pier or pylon is plainly NOT an 'anchor line', nor is it 'an object 'accidentally attached'

Nope - running aground going round an island is not touching a mark. Think about if you hit the ground tackle of a mark but not the mark itself you haven't touched the mark or if you anchor do you think the anchor has touched the isalnd - well I guess a good throw could get the anchor onto a beach at times.

 

6 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I think I would agree with this - you could argue that "island" is only the land portion above the water's surface. So if you run aground in shallow water near an island you have not touched the island. If you're up on the beach you've touched the mark (but probably have bigger problems than a one-turn penalty).

OK, I'll come around.

I don't accept the anchor-line analogy:  'anchor-line', and 'object accidentally attached' are highly specific words of exception in a Definition.  Analogy is not justified

Don't agree with 'the water's surface' formulation either.

I will agree that the 'island' is the land above the high water mark:  that's the way 'land' in land-law works for land along a shore-line.

So, if you drive up on the beach, you haven't touched the 'mark' until you get above the high-water mark.  Pretty hypothetical:  if you drive up like that, your race is pretty much over.

[JimC 86]

Isn't a bridge a gate mark? Hence the SI stating that more than one span is acceptable?

You can sail the wrong side of the gate on any bridge that crosses a channel to an island, and I see no definition that says it *must* be possible to sail the wrong side of a mark.

[r.finn 72]

14 hours ago, ____G____ said:

I assume for weight, I believe he usually gets towed out to the starting mark

Melges 32s have engines in a well mounted in the cockpit. That's why you don't see it.

[Mid 1,160]

touch a mark , in any way or fashion , and you spin . 

 

end of .

[ryley 97]

2 hours ago, overlay said:

I bet the Etchell fleet loves that rule.

No chance of a resurgence in the 12meters 's then?

Bwahahahaha

We're talking about handicap fleets. Most handicapping authorities have a line in their bylaws like this: 4. outboard engine, or inboard engine with folding prop, or where appropriate, inboard engine with two-blade solid prop in aperture; auxiliary power, sufficient to propel the boat in calm water at a speed no less than the square root of the waterline length in knots, is mandatory. Boats without auxiliary power will only be issued unofficial certificates.

so yeah, Etchells without an outboard and 12m that hasn't already been converted to auxiliary power (are there any left?) would not get official ratings. YMMV

[fucket 28]

33 minutes ago, Mid said:

touch a mark , in any way or fashion , and you spin . 

 

end of .

What's a mark?

[Mid 1,160]

3 minutes ago, fucket said:

What's a mark?

short for mark of the course , but you knew that else you are on the wrong site 

[fucket 28]

3 minutes ago, Mid said:

short for mark of the course , but you knew that else you are on the wrong site 

What's a mark of the course?

[Mid 1,160]

1 minute ago, fucket said:

What's a mark of the course?

 

[JohnMB 28]

5 hours ago, JimC said:

Isn't a bridge a gate mark? Hence the SI stating that more than one span is acceptable?

You can sail the wrong side of the gate on any bridge that crosses a channel to an island, and I see no definition that says it *must* be possible to sail the wrong side of a mark.

There is no requirement to say a mark has to be surrounded by navigable water.

A bridge is only a gate mark if its defined that way. I think the table shown above lacks a little clarity, even though the title of the table is Marks of the Course, the column heading is Marks or passage. There are five items in the table, three have the work 'Mark' in either the description or the name, the other two are bridges.

The notes allow boats to pass through any span of the fixed...... either side of the swing span.

You could argue that the end outer pylons of the bridge are marks, but any central pylon does not have required side (since boats are allowed to pass under the next span along).

I would say that if the OA wants the bridge to be a gate mark they can state that, and probably should, clarity is king.

[Geronimo 5]

17 hours ago, ____G____ said:

I assume for weight, I believe he usually gets towed out to the starting mark

The motor died after the gas tanks were swapped during the 23 mile motor to the start.... Bad gas. 

[Jackdaw 27]

19 hours ago, ____G____ said:

Hmm you know I never thought about it all the boats im on have engines.  I know we don't have them on dinghys that race, but I have no idea where the line is drawn that the boat is to big not to have an engine (but you'd think it would be a requirement of a 40nm race).  Yeah we are pretty relaxed only a few total assholes.  But you got to stay relaxed in Louisiana heat.

 

Interesting reading the GYA-PHRF 'rule' regarding engines. If it is intended to mandate an engine on board, I think it's poorly written. I think I could argue that this does not cover the ground. An assumption is not a mandate, and the statement about speed only applies if an aux system is installed!

 

B. PHRF base handicaps are made on the assumption that the boat is in racing condition, the boat has an auxiliary propulsion system suitable for the boat’s design that is either an outboard motor (which is permitted to be stowed for racing) or equipped with a folding or feathering propeller, and that the hull and appendages are unmodified from their original design. Any auxiliary propulsion system must be capable of producing a boat speed in knots equal to 1.0 times the square root of the length of water line in feet.

[HookEm 6]

If it is a mark, my rule books says a yacht which touches a mark which begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing shall retire immediately, unless she claims that she was wrongfully compelled to touch it by another yacht, in which case she shall protest.  Clearly a DSQ for failing to protest. 

If it is an obstruction, a yacht after fouling an object may, in getting clear, use her own anchors, boats, ropes, spars and other gear; may send out an anchor in a boat; may be refloated by her crew going overboard either to stand on the bottom or to go ashore to push off; but may receive outside assistance only from the crew of the vessel fouled.  There is no provision for pushing off. 

I'm sure this clear it up. 

[NOYC Reporter from a FARR 3]

 

[NOYC Reporter from a FARR 3]

1 hour ago, NOYC Reporter from a FARR said:

 

What is the correct penalty turn after hitting a mark?
(1) Two Turn Penalty two tacks two gybes.
(2) One turn penalty one tack one gybe
(3) No Turn required on Wednesday Nights Come On it is Bear Can Racing
(4) None of the above
 

[JoeBleaux 15]

I like this public shaming thing, much more fun than the protest room. 

2 hours ago, NOYC Reporter from a FARR said:

What is the correct penalty turn after hitting a mark?
(1) Two Turn Penalty two tacks two gybes.
(2) One turn penalty one tack one gybe
(3) No Turn required on Wednesday Nights Come On it is Bear Can Racing
(4) None of the above
 

 

[ryley 97]

7 hours ago, NOYC Reporter from a FARR said:

What is the correct penalty turn after hitting a mark?
(1) Two Turn Penalty two tacks two gybes.
(2) One turn penalty one tack one gybe
(3) No Turn required on Wednesday Nights Come On it is Bear Can Racing
(4) None of the above
 

it's one turn, but the video you posted doesn't show that the offending boat never took a penalty. since the rules also require that the boat get clear and not interfere with any other boats while taking its penalty. 

[EYESAILOR 105]

13 hours ago, JoeBleaux said:

I like this public shaming thing, much more fun than the protest room. 

 

Except.....I wonder if it brings the sport of sailing into disrepute ? 

 

It it almost looked like the video came from a support boat.