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Greyhound37

Todays Race Boat getting Spanked by old school

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The modern day racers and racer cruisers are designed to get on plane and scoot when conditions dictate. I have  been following the Annapolis to Bermuda race (170 miles to go at 16:00EST  6.12) 

We  have a proven rocket XP44 very well prepared being chased 250 miles down the Chesapeake (tacking all the way) by a Navy 44 and a Frers 45 (1990) and they trail the XP by one mile at the bay exit.

Light air, mostly up-wind. Now days later they are 300 miles into the ocean and the XP is about 25 miles ahead of the Navy 44.

 

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Related story. (Did Sly, the XP44, have the black jib up?) Btw, Cimarron is doing pretty darn good also for a 36' sailboat

So here is my version from what I saw near Smith Beach on Saturday Morning just North of Cape Charles.

Annapolis- Bermuda Race (Unique Experience)

So I sailed North from VA Beach/Norfolk on Friday. My outboard died (overheated) on the way out Little Creek, but I said the hell with it.

I'll have a problem trying to dock now or in a few days and I knew the wind was suppose to come up. (although it hadn't at this point early afternoon)

So after I crossed the shipping channel (Thimble Shoal Channel) just ahead of a ship, the wind picked up and I had the tide. My Bristol 27 at one point actually hit 7.8 knots in the deep channel near the anchored tankers close to Cape Charles.

Anyway, I sailed on up to maybe 10 miles or so North of Cape Charles (30 miles from where I started) where the land dips way in to the East.  (near Smith Beach) North of Cherry Stone and maybe even with Eastville.

I sailed here because the wind was heavy SE and I found a nice calm spot west of the Eastern Shore, but with my luck during the night, the wind rotated to the SW so I had bay waves knocking my boat around much of the night and got little sleep

So when I got up I carefully fixed coffee with my propane hot plate while the boat still pounded into the waves, but a least now the waves were head on and not on the beam.

After I got straight, I raised sail and sailed off my anchorage barely missing running aground as the wind was pushing me toward shore. Depth finder showed 1' under the keel as I made the turn.

So now I'm headed just North of west (270) since my Bristol simply will not point. It's around 8 am or so.

A mile or so off after I get the autopilot hooked up and things get somewhat normal (decks are slippery etc) I get to look around and spot a sail. (blue hull/ maroon bottom seen when he got closer) His heading is different than most boats I see coming down the bay. (I didn't know there was a race happening!) He is headed to the spot where I was anchored which was maybe 200-300 yards off the shore

He carries his tack way too long for a cruiser (which is what I've been trying to learn to be after racing beach cats for 15 years, Florida Gulf Coast, beach cat racing heaven at least it was back in the day)

I can't really tell the boat type yet since he is a ways away so I'm thinking I wonder if I can point with this guy. I have position being west of him with a SW wind. I know he's going fast but...….hey, I'm a racer guy or was

So I see he runs this tack way long, on the tracker for the race it shows he must have picked up some land effect breeze. I didn't know any of this at the time but when he tacked, I'm like. Nope, you can't point with that guy. I thought It might have been an old full keeler trying to get to Harbor Fest.

So now I'm sailing my Bristol (I love her lines) and see another boat with a black jib. He has a good line going as I'm trying to get SE to Kiptopeke where my son is meeting me with tools to repair the outboard. So I sail way west to line up with him then tack and as luck would have it there is a tanker coming up the bay and I'm going to cross too close so I tack back. This over 30 minutes or so.

There are 18 tankers anchored in this area. So after tacking twice to clear two moving tankers, I'm headed SE again but directly at another tanker so I have to sail off the wind a bit to avoid. I was so concerned with the tanker (he was blocking the wind and I didn't want the strong outgoing tide pushing me into him) that I never saw another race boat that crossed maybe 4 boat lengths in front of me. The boat was at least 40' plus.

So long story short (er), The first boat I saw was Tenacious which is a 44' sailboat funded by Congress for the Naval Academy.

https://www.usna.edu/Sailing/lectures/navy44.php

The one with the black jib that I thought I might follow his line may have been S/V Sly which is an XP44.

I'm not sure which boat crossed my bow (I was on starboard btw!) but it could have been Divide by Zero a Frers 45 

Btw, the race started at 1330 On Friday from near Annapolis

Race Tracker.

http://www.bermudaoceanrace.com/

So now my question is do I buy this Pearson 10m (PHRF 141) I found that needs stuff but has good sails for $8-10K or an Ericson 36 (PHRF 108) asking price $22,000 that has everything?

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Yeah, the race turned a long, slow, sail back down to Kiptopeke into a fun experience……..if I'd only been on that Pearson 10M or the Ericson 36 I'm considering I may have been able to observe the leaders for a while close up as I was in quite a nice position on the race course

It must have been exciting for the racers sailing down the bay all night while watching each other and avoiding the obstacles

The wind was SE coming up the bay on Friday and rotated SSW according to my hand compass when I checked it Saturday am

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Btw, I crossed in front of Impromptu early Sunday morning. He was just leaving the bay. I heard he had some sort of problem earlier

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14 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

The modern day racers and racer cruisers are designed to get on plane and scoot when conditions dictate. I have  been following the Annapolis to Bermuda race (170 miles to go at 16:00EST  6.12) 

We  have a proven rocket XP44 very well prepared being chased 250 miles down the Chesapeake (tacking all the way) by a Navy 44 and a Frers 45 (1990) and they trail the XP by one mile at the bay exit.

Light air, mostly up-wind. Now days later they are 300 miles into the ocean and the XP is about 25 miles ahead of the Navy 44.

 

Believe that XP is new to them and used to be raced by (mostly / all(?)) professional crew. Don't think that is the case anymore. I could be wrong; often am.

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I think if you go back and evaluate results for lots of races, you will find that a modestly proportioned C/r type does quite well in distance races.  I am looking for a C/R type boat for truly mixed use and it seems you are almost at a disadvantage with the latest and greatest designs.  Moderate beam and displacement with a long Lwl seems to be the most consistent for winning on handicap (regardless of the rule).  Look at how well Cal 40's do or Carina for example.  People like to rag on J-120's but they are moderatly proportioned by today's standards and do quite well.  Every dog has its day but middle of the road designs seem to achieve the best averages.

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15 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

The modern day racers and racer cruisers are designed to get on plane and scoot when conditions dictate. I have  been following the Annapolis to Bermuda race (170 miles to go at 16:00EST  6.12) 

We  have a proven rocket XP44 very well prepared being chased 250 miles down the Chesapeake (tacking all the way) by a Navy 44 and a Frers 45 (1990) and they trail the XP by one mile at the bay exit.

Light air, mostly up-wind. Now days later they are 300 miles into the ocean and the XP is about 25 miles ahead of the Navy 44.

 

It's pretty much apples and oranges.  Plus it is kind of funny you are talking about planing with three boats that will never plane.  Anyway, the xp44 has longer water line and weighs under 20,000 lbs. The Navy 44 weighs 27,600.  That being said, in the light air upwind I would expect the Navy 44 to be around the xp44 due to the overlapping head sail on the Navy 44. Which would also show why the xp legged out in the ocean as it found more breeze and was finally able to get up to speed using the waterline as well. 

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Tenacious, Navy 44, actually got ahead (or almost ahead) of Sly, the XP44 in  the lower bay by working the Eastern Side close

Navy 44 was getting excellent wind along the Eastern Side at about the time I saw him. He caught a nice land effect breeze and got passed Sly for a while there at about 0830 on Saturday morning.

I was amazed at how long he carried that tack toward shore right where I had just sailed from. On the tracker, it appears he caught a nice lift

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2 hours ago, T sailor said:

Every dog has its day but middle of the road designs seem to achieve the best averages.

Almost by definition...

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20 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

The modern day racers and racer cruisers are designed to get on plane and scoot when conditions dictate. I have  been following the Annapolis to Bermuda race (170 miles to go at 16:00EST  6.12) 

We  have a proven rocket XP44 very well prepared being chased 250 miles down the Chesapeake (tacking all the way) by a Navy 44 and a Frers 45 (1990) and they trail the XP by one mile at the bay exit.

Light air, mostly up-wind. Now days later they are 300 miles into the ocean and the XP is about 25 miles ahead of the Navy 44.

 

Are you high?  an XP44 is a cruiser - slightly lighter than a navy 44/Freers45 but it is nowhere near the term "proven rocket"  It will take half a hurricane to get the XP on a plane.  Surfing? sure - but so will the boats you are comparing it to

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Christian you need to get out more often. Take a peek at the XP polars. That boat will reach at 15 knots with no problem. The Navy 44 is capped at 8 or so reaching.

PHRF is 21 for the XP

N44 is 81

If I just paid 500K for a well prepared RC (stripped of anything that does not add performance) and a Navy 44 shadowed me for 250 miles (and finished within 20?) I would be very disappointed. 

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53 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

Christian you need to get out more often. Take a peek at the XP polars. That boat will reach at 15 knots with no problem. The Navy 44 is capped at 8 or so reaching.

PHRF is 21 for the XP

N44 is 81

If I just paid 500K for a well prepared RC (stripped of anything that does not add performance) and a Navy 44 shadowed me for 250 miles (and finished within 20?) I would be very disappointed. 

Or maybe you do.............  Sure an XP can get on a plane in half a hurricane but it is not anything like you called a planing boat - which is more like a carkeek 40 and the like, which will pop on a plane in winds in the mid teens and will leave the XP in the dust - downwind.  Upwind they are all 40'ish footers and will be somewhat closely matched in speed

 

This is exactly why fast boats are screwed in upwind/tight reaching races as they cannot make up for their rating compared to the crab crushers

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11 hours ago, Wess said:

Believe that XP is new to them and used to be raced by (mostly / all(?)) professional crew. Don't think that is the case anymore. I could be wrong; often  ALWAYS  am.

FIFY

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In a distance race, anything can happen.

Many times it's not about the boat at all if they are somewhat close in rating, it's about who finds the wind.

Forums though are full of guys that know boats but not racing.

It's back to getting your head out of the boat ………..

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I guarantee you Christian knows a thing or two about racing.  But yeah, the conditions this year do not favor the XP44....done enough Bermuda Races where they completely kicked ass.

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Looks like the heavy Navy boats are doing well offshore...….maybe working as a team?

Also the J110, Cimarron, is doing awesome for a 36' boat

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2 hours ago, BeerDidClam said:

FIFY

You are just old and pissed cause you still cant my mighty Laser!!  :P

But I am right and Bill just wants to sell them something, LOL.

Oh and GO NAVY!!

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Why anyone would race PHRF (or any Single Number system) in an ocean race is probably a better question. 

ORRez has handicap numbers for this race based on 2 legs, the bay and and offshore, and then factors in windspeed and course configurations to give accurate VPP numbers to each, individual boat. 

PHRF is so Last Century.  But we already knew that. 

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Rating systems aside the fact that the Navy 44 finished ahead of the XP44 is hard to imagine. The XP lead the race start to (almost) finish. With 150 miles to go he had a 20 mile lead in Tenacious. Did he sail into a dead zone and the Navy boat found air?

The race site has not updated all boats but shows the XP finished 4th in line honours. How can that be??? 

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50 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

Rating systems aside the fact that the Navy 44 finished ahead of the XP44 is hard to imagine. The XP lead the race start to (almost) finish. With 150 miles to go he had a 20 mile lead in Tenacious. Did he sail into a dead zone and the Navy boat found air?

The race site has not updated all boats but shows the XP finished 4th in line honours. How can that be??? 

The XP crossed/arrived first. (hard to tell if he actually crossed the line). Navy 44 got it on PHRF.

Back up the tracker a bit and you can see it. 

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17 minutes ago, thomm124 said:

The XP crossed/arrived first. (hard to tell if he actually crossed the line). Navy 44 got it on PHRF.

Back up the tracker a bit and you can see it. 

The app had it wrong this morning. Actually noted Tenacious first in LH but showed the XP at the dock but listed as still racing... delayed updates on a few boats

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15 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

The app had it wrong this morning. Actually noted Tenacious first in LH but showed the XP at the dock but listed as still racing... delayed updates on a few boats

Yeah, I saw that and thought maybe Sly, the XP, fouled someone or didn't cross for some reason.

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Never sell Jahn short.  He and his team have transformed the Offshore Team from a lack-luster mid-fleet team into a formidable bunch of sailors and sailorettes.  I love competing against those blue boats, because you'd better bring your A-game.  

Once at ARW more than a few years back, we were racing against one of the Navy 44's and a squall was approaching.  There was some conversation on board our boat about reefing. While we were debating, the N44 performed the most efficient and instantaneous reefs I've ever seen, I mean the choreography was perfect.  While we were digging in and getting overwhelmed in each puff, the 44 lit out like a scalded cat.  

 

606366705_reefnow.jpg.6c530f12429662deccd9b4ba32c9e7ac.jpg

(frame grab from Trevor H)

 

Hats off to Coach Tihansky and the Navy Offshore Team!

 

 

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On 6/13/2018 at 8:19 AM, T sailor said:

I think if you go back and evaluate results for lots of races, you will find that a modestly proportioned C/r type does quite well in distance races.  I am looking for a C/R type boat for truly mixed use and it seems you are almost at a disadvantage with the latest and greatest designs.  Moderate beam and displacement with a long Lwl seems to be the most consistent for winning on handicap (regardless of the rule).  Look at how well Cal 40's do or Carina for example.  People like to rag on J-120's but they are moderatly proportioned by today's standards and do quite well.  Every dog has its day but middle of the road designs seem to achieve the best averages.

People rag on the 120? They can be a bit pudgy in drifters from what i've seen but they're otherwise great boats. 

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18 hours ago, Christian said:

Or maybe you do.............  Sure an XP can get on a plane in half a hurricane but it is not anything like you called a planing boat - which is more like a carkeek 40 and the like, which will pop on a plane in winds in the mid teens and will leave the XP in the dust - downwind.  Upwind they are all 40'ish footers and will be somewhat closely matched in speed

 

This is exactly why fast boats are screwed in upwind/tight reaching races as they cannot make up for their rating compared to the crab crushers

pft i had the XP44 planing upwind in 12kts on the down the bay race last month. shows what you know. 

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57 minutes ago, BeerDidClam said:

Never sell Jahn short.  He and his team have transformed the Offshore Team from a lack-luster mid-fleet team into a formidable bunch of sailors and sailorettes.  I love competing against those blue boats, because you'd better bring your A-game.  

Once at ARW more than a few years back, we were racing against one of the Navy 44's and a squall was approaching.  There was some conversation on board our boat about reefing. While we were debating, the N44 performed the most efficient and instantaneous reefs I've ever seen, I mean the choreography was perfect.  While we were digging in and getting overwhelmed in each puff, the 44 lit out like a scalded cat.  

 

606366705_reefnow.jpg.6c530f12429662deccd9b4ba32c9e7ac.jpg

(frame grab from Trevor H)

 

Hats off to Coach Tihansky and the Navy Offshore Team!

 

 

Plus 10.

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2 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

pft i had the XP44 planing upwind in 12kts on the down the bay race last month. shows what you know. 

:lol: yeah and all by yourself

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As an ex-Navy big boat sailor, your absolutely right about JT...

In fact picture in my avatar is me sailing my J/109 out of the Annapolis boat show at close.  JT, then one of the owners of J/World Annapolis, and 2 of his guys as crew...

Best offshore coach they’ve ever had. It’s been awesome for the Mids!

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Sitting here in Bermuda on my porch looking down at Sly,  the Navy boats and the J all docked @ RHADC.... winds getting light for the next few days here,  N2B looks slow this year.   Life is good when you sail. 

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If I could only go back, I would have sailed instead of rowed at USNA. Back then I still thought sailing was what rich kids do on the weekend. Not sure why I thought rowing was much better come to think of it. But man, what I could have learned...

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1 hour ago, freewheelin said:

If I could only go back, I would have sailed instead of rowed at USNA. Back then I still thought sailing was what rich kids do on the weekend. Not sure why I thought rowing was much better come to think of it. But man, what I could have learned...

Yea but rowing made it much easier to pass/max the PRT, LOL. 

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yea but rowing made it much easier to pass/max the PRT, LOL. 

lol that's the truth. and I bet if i could still max the PRT, I would be more interested than I am in sitting on an erg or getting back in a shell.

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42 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

I'm still stuck on the first post trying to work out in what galaxy an XP44 is known as a proven rocket

if your reference is a cal20...

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15 hours ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

I'm still stuck on the first post trying to work out in what galaxy an XP44 is known as a proven rocket 

This particular XP44 won (not corrected) every race she entered here on the Chesapeake under the former owner as Rival. With a rating of 21 she better scoot.

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42 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

This particular XP44 won (not corrected) every race she entered here on the Chesapeake under the former owner as Rival. With a rating of 21 she better scoot.

She got beat down the bay last year by almost three hours by a Farr 400.

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OK not every race. Farr owes the XP 40+ seconds per mile... so the Farr only beat them by 2 hours and 15 minutes

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7 hours ago, Greyhound37 said:

OK not every race. Farr owes the XP 40+ seconds per mile... so the Farr only beat them by 2 hours and 15 minutes

Ok - now you truly sound like a complete tool.  Boat for boat we beat the XP by almost 3 hours.  Corrected by a bit under 2 hours (both ORC and PHRF)  - This included us stopping for 20+ minutes after we blew out one of the backstays when we dipped the snout in the piss going 20 knots.  Luckily we didn't blow the stick - quick rig check, rigging the spare kite halyard as a backstay and off again.

 

This exactly illustrates why it is idiotic calling an XP44 a planing Rocket when it is more than 30% slower than a 4 foot shorter boat - downwind.  It will beat the F400 boat for boat upwind in a blow

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1 minute ago, Christian said:

Ok - now you truly sound like a complete tool.  Boat for boat we beat the XP by almost 3 hours.  Corrected by a bit under 2 hours (both ORC and PHRF)  - This included us stopping for 20+ minutes after we blew out one of the backstays when we dipped the snout in the piss going 20 knots.  Luckily we didn't blow the stick - quick rig check, rigging the spare kite halyard as a backstay and off again.

 

This exactly illustrates why it is idiotic calling an XP44 a planing Rocket when it is more than 30% slower than a 4 foot shorter boat - downwind.  It will beat the F400 boat for boat upwind in a blow

stop using your facts to support your argument. it offends me. 

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1 minute ago, mustang__1 said:

stop using your facts to support your argument. it offends me. 

:)

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You are wearing me down. 

How about this. The Farr 400 is a Porsche Cup car. Not street legal built specific for road course racing. Air jacks, cage, dynamic engine mounts.

The XP is a Form Mustang 5.0 with the air conditioning removed. 

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Well. Thread got dumber.

My contribution is an X yacht is more Cadillac CT6 and the 400 is a higher specd BMW.

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On 6/14/2018 at 6:58 PM, BeerDidClam said:

Never sell Jahn short.  He and his team have transformed the Offshore Team from a lack-luster mid-fleet team into a formidable bunch of sailors and sailorettes.  I love competing against those blue boats, because you'd better bring your A-game.  

Once at ARW more than a few years back, we were racing against one of the Navy 44's and a squall was approaching.  There was some conversation on board our boat about reefing. While we were debating, the N44 performed the most efficient and instantaneous reefs I've ever seen, I mean the choreography was perfect.  While we were digging in and getting overwhelmed in each puff, the 44 lit out like a scalded cat.  

 

606366705_reefnow.jpg.6c530f12429662deccd9b4ba32c9e7ac.jpg

(frame grab from Trevor H)

 

Hats off to Coach Tihansky and the Navy Offshore Team!

 

 

Jahn has been winning races since before he was a teenager and been a teacher and mentor to other sailors since his days as a sailmaker for Sobstad.    He may have offshore chops, but as "Moresailesaid," he co-owns the two fastest monohull elapsed times for the Watertribe Everglades Challenge, a 300 mile adventure race along the coast of Florida.

Congrats on his "squadron's" 1,2,3 finish and the top overall corrected time!

- Stumbling

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6 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

nev mind - cant seem to be able to delete stuff now. WTF?

Edited by BeerDidClam
nebber mind

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9 hours ago, doghouse said:

Well. Thread got dumber.

My contribution is an X yacht is more Cadillac CT6 and the 400 is a higher specd BMW.

i always considered the x yacht to be more like a j-boat that was designed and built in europe.

I feel like i might be playing this game wrong. 

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