Chris Maas

Moth for sale

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FRIGGIN AWESOME!, BET YOU HAVE MORE THAN THAT IN MATERIALS, AND I'M SURE IT'S PERFECT SINCE YOU BUILT IT.

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18 hours ago, Chris Maas said:

Please check out my ad:

http://sailinganarchy.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=3712

It may not be the fastest Moth in the world but it's probably faster than anything else where you sail. And damn, it looks good. Stop being such a candy ass and go rip it up. $4,500.

Look even old guys can sail it. (Thierry Martinez took this photo)

1524584927384_ChrisMaas_2013MothNationals-1.jpg

That gentleman has some big Moth balls!

- Stumbling

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I'LL BUY IT

Edit. Not sure I'll ever have time to sail it, but if it's going anywhere I want to be sure it's being looked after. That boat is so far outside the box it's never heard of a box

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7 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

I'LL BUY IT

Edit. Not sure I'll ever have time to sail it, but if it's going anywhere I want to be sure it's being looked after. That boat is so far outside the box it's never heard of a box

Good man!
Protecting precious engineering capital!

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Nice. I didn’t realize I could get a moth for less than 6k and it actually be functioning and clean. Too bad I’ve already started with other new toys. But now I know what my next stupid purchase is going to be. (Stupid in that I haven’t a clue how to sail a moth but it looks exhilarating and sketchy, just how I like it)

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I think (or I thought..) that $6k would be the absolute bottom for clean and functioning. Not any Mach 2s for that are there? Even dirty and broken.

Does the exceptionally attractive / realistic price reflect the novelty of this craft, and that you maybe don't get the comfort blanket of off the shelf parts and knowledge base of users from M2 or Exocet etc

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13 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:

Nice. I didn’t realize I could get a moth for less than 6k and it actually be functioning and clean. Too bad I’ve already started with other new toys. But now I know what my next stupid purchase is going to be. (Stupid in that I haven’t a clue how to sail a moth but it looks exhilarating and sketchy, just how I like it)

That's where you're wrong. Once it gets down to 8k most moths are chock-o-block full of gremlins and require real boatbuilding skill to make functional. That's a core reason for why I've never bought one. This is a once in a lifetime chance to get a piece of bespoke art for nothing. That's why I'm calling chris right now.

DRC

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1 hour ago, OutofOffice said:

Nice. I didn’t realize I could get a moth for less than 6k and it actually be functioning and clean. Too bad I’ve already started with other new toys. But now I know what my next stupid purchase is going to be. (Stupid in that I haven’t a clue how to sail a moth but it looks exhilarating and sketchy, just how I like it)

You could up until a couple of hours ago. Now you can't

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1 hour ago, Daniel Holman said:

I think (or I thought..) that $6k would be the absolute bottom for clean and functioning. Not any Mach 2s for that are there? Even dirty and broken.

Does the exceptionally attractive / realistic price reflect the novelty of this craft, and that you maybe don't get the comfort blanket of off the shelf parts and knowledge base of users from M2 or Exocet etc

I think you are right on both counts. Also, in the US at least, you can pretty much count on one hand the number of potential buyers for a non race winning development class boat. Not too many out there who have the skills and desire to keep such a craft functioning, AND the skills to sail it.  

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2 hours ago, Daniel Holman said:

Such a cool boat. Colour aside.

Why are you selling? And what would you do differently given your time again that would make it the fastest moth in the world?
Dan

What's wrong with the color?

Sadly, I'm just getting too slow and clumsy. That and swimming in the cold water here is losing it's appeal. 

I really don't know what I'd do to make a fast Moth. Copy the best ones I suppose. The good ones are so very good. Or I'd at least not try to design my own foils. But where's the fun in that?

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Good on you Chris.

What is the next project (that won't send you swimming)?

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7 hours ago, DtM said:

Good on you Chris.

What is the next project (that won't send you swimming)?

A 23' cedar and carbon daysailer, with, oh god, 400 pounds of lead.

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7 minutes ago, Chris Maas said:

A 23' cedar and carbon daysailer, with, oh god, 400 pounds of lead.

SURE TO BE STUNNING!

 

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10 hours ago, Chris Maas said:

A 23' cedar and carbon daysailer, with, oh god, 400 pounds of lead.

Going German Lakeboat-ish?

Carbon Gunter Rig?

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On 6/14/2018 at 11:13 PM, Chris Maas said:

What's wrong with the color?

Sadly, I'm just getting too slow and clumsy. That and swimming in the cold water here is losing it's appeal. 

I really don't know what I'd do to make a fast Moth. Copy the best ones I suppose. The good ones are so very good. Or I'd at least not try to design my own foils. But where's the fun in that?

I'm too superstitious for green. :-)

Yes it seems like the production offerings are super refined alright.

Yep if that boat were in the UK you could fetch double or triple the money as long as it was functional. Good on Dave C tho! He will have fantastic pride of ownership and a great ride.

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21 hours ago, Amati said:

Going German Lakeboat-ish?

Carbon Gunter Rig?

I was inspired by the really nice little daysailers of the US northeast when I was out there last year sailing with the IC brothers. It will be something in the traditional line. Herreshoff like, but "improved" with a lifting bulb and modernish rig.

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10 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

@Dave Clark @Chris Maas -- any chance for a talk-through video of the boat and/or writeup with schematics? 

Probably not Martin. Whose got time for that shit? Anyway it's not like that Moth was wildly innovative, or, with me driving anyway, competitive.

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1 hour ago, Chris Maas said:

I was inspired by the really nice little daysailers of the US northeast when I was out there last year sailing with the IC brothers. It will be something in the traditional line. Herreshoff like, but "improved" with a lifting bulb and modernish rig.

:rolleyes: ?  Squarehead? 1100 lbs? Dual rudders?  

 

 

4C216CEE-11CA-4968-A526-F7AF03E8A6D1.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Amati said:

:rolleyes: ?  Squarehead? 1100 lbs? Dual rudders?  

 

 

4C216CEE-11CA-4968-A526-F7AF03E8A6D1.jpeg

That's the idea, but with a sloop rig. One rudder will do I think.

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Also since Chris won't toot his own horn about his moth, I'll do it for him. ew. 

Narwahl-  international moth

Color: Excited Puce
Controls: rigged for a sprit back when sprits were still uncool and "we tried that in Torobole and it was worse", so way ahead of its time. Reverted to no sprit in what I can only guess was a last minute fit of conformity. Nowadays they're a must for pretty clear reasons. Reverting to a sprit looks like a very easy change given the original layout.
Hull Construction: WAY low freeboard, which has been tried recently by Josh Mcknight and Rhys Tailby off of the Monstro mold. I'm sure it has downsides but god it looks scary cool.  As far as I can tell it's a good bit more flared and beamy in the middle which would seem to make some sense in displacement, though all told the exocet seems to look like a limo in comparison, and that barely floats. 
Wing construction and geometry: SOLID TRAMPS two years before the first SSD from Aardvark. These are way lower in cord to keep the aero drag down which, from the practical data I've seen makes some sense. You do lose dancefloor which is a tradeoff, but Luka Damic and Dave Lister are still using trams on conventional wingbars with all the surface area of a thong, and they're fast, so just get the tubes out of the picture and these are the tramps you have left.  Also these are bolt-on, which is marginally more convenient than laminated high-section solid wings like you see on the SSD or James Sainsbury's valkyrie. It does mean the fiber must be working a good deal harder in places, but chris weighs about 88 kilos so once again it looks like chris has nailed the laminate on the first try. 
Rig geometry and consumer decisions: Some off the shelf mast and off the shelf sail which look pretty on the money for  what could be readily bought in 2012. The COP on the mainsail is incredibly high up the mast for this day and age and a lot of the strong spots are built in the wrong place to do the conventional hacks that would bring that downhill. To shift the COP nicely, you'd probably need to do the following. 1. Hack off 14 inches of mast stump 2. redesign/rebuild the vang system and boom 3. cut off the tension bar across the front of the tramp and replace it with a big thick curved mainbeam across the front to get the strength back 4. Build a pizza slice shaped turntable between the rotational axis of the mast and the leading edge of the tramp. 5. Fully endplate the front half of the mainsail down to the turntable thus endplating the sail while not intersecting it fully with an dihedral airfoil (tramps) which should keep the junction drag low. 6, Maybe hack off another foot from the front edge of the tramp to properly offset the two. Not that I'd ever find the time to do it. I've got UFOs to build and sail. Boatwork sucks.
Foils: Good mach2 foils from the era. Once upon a time it had an anhedral mainfoil but apparently it fell off and sank. Fast idea but chris says it was not for public consumption. I've been told that macdougall is making anhedral mainfoils now but I never get out in public enough to have seen one. Makes sense, barring stability. 

All told, it's an immensely creative boat. I've attached a picture from before the sprit got chopped off that shows a lot of what makes it different. Further, being made by chris, you know it's light and tough. Honestly somebody should be trying to pay him more and stop me from buying it. Unlike a second hand production boat, this thing has a soul.

Procrastination over. Back to writing this week's production schedule.

DRC
 

210988_264752700245132_1289136297_o.jpg

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2 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Also since Chris won't toot his own horn about his moth, I'll do it for him. ew. 

Narwahl-  international moth

Color: Excited Puce
Controls: rigged for a sprit back when sprits were still uncool and "we tried that in Torobole and it was worse", so way ahead of its time. Reverted to no sprit in what I can only guess was a last minute fit of conformity. Nowadays they're a must for pretty clear reasons. Reverting to a sprit looks like a very easy change given the original layout.
Hull Construction: WAY low freeboard, which has been tried recently by Josh Mcknight and Rhys Tailby off of the Monstro mold. I'm sure it has downsides but god it looks scary cool.  As far as I can tell it's a good bit more flared and beamy in the middle which would seem to make some sense in displacement, though all told the exocet seems to look like a limo in comparison, and that barely floats. 
Wing construction and geometry: SOLID TRAMPS two years before the first SSD from Aardvark. These are way lower in cord to keep the aero drag down which, from the practical data I've seen makes some sense. You do lose dancefloor which is a tradeoff, but Luka Damic and Dave Lister are still using trams on conventional wingbars with all the surface area of a thong, and they're fast, so just get the tubes out of the picture and these are the tramps you have left.  Also these are bolt-on, which is marginally more convenient than laminated high-section solid wings like you see on the SSD or James Sainsbury's valkyrie. It does mean the fiber must be working a good deal harder in places, but chris weighs about 88 kilos so once again it looks like chris has nailed the laminate on the first try. 
Rig geometry and consumer decisions: Some off the shelf mast and off the shelf sail which look pretty on the money for  what could be readily bought in 2012. The COP on the mainsail is incredibly high up the mast for this day and age and a lot of the strong spots are built in the wrong place to do the conventional hacks that would bring that downhill. To shift the COP nicely, you'd probably need to do the following. 1. Hack off 14 inches of mast stump 2. redesign/rebuild the vang system and boom 3. cut off the tension bar across the front of the tramp and replace it with a big thick curved mainbeam across the front to get the strength back 4. Build a pizza slice shaped turntable between the rotational axis of the mast and the leading edge of the tramp. 5. Fully endplate the front half of the mainsail down to the turntable thus endplating the sail while not intersecting it fully with an dihedral airfoil (tramps) which should keep the junction drag low. 6, Maybe hack off another foot from the front edge of the tramp to properly offset the two. Not that I'd ever find the time to do it. I've got UFOs to build and sail. Boatwork sucks.
Foils: Good mach2 foils from the era. Once upon a time it had an anhedral mainfoil but apparently it fell off and sank. Fast idea but chris says it was not for public consumption. I've been told that macdougall is making anhedral mainfoils now but I never get out in public enough to have seen one. Makes sense, barring stability. 

All told, it's an immensely creative boat. I've attached a picture from before the sprit got chopped off that shows a lot of what makes it different. Further, being made by chris, you know it's light and tough. Honestly somebody should be trying to pay him more and stop me from buying it. Unlike a second hand production boat, this thing has a soul.

Procrastination over. Back to writing this week's production schedule.

DRC
 

210988_264752700245132_1289136297_o.jpg

Thumbs up to the both of you!

 

:)

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5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Also since Chris won't toot his own horn about his moth, I'll do it for him. ew. 

Narwahl-  international moth

Color: Excited Puce
Controls: rigged for a sprit back when sprits were still uncool and "we tried that in Torobole and it was worse", so way ahead of its time. Reverted to no sprit in what I can only guess was a last minute fit of conformity. Nowadays they're a must for pretty clear reasons. Reverting to a sprit looks like a very easy change given the original layout.
Hull Construction: WAY low freeboard, which has been tried recently by Josh Mcknight and Rhys Tailby off of the Monstro mold. I'm sure it has downsides but god it looks scary cool.  As far as I can tell it's a good bit more flared and beamy in the middle which would seem to make some sense in displacement, though all told the exocet seems to look like a limo in comparison, and that barely floats. 
Wing construction and geometry: SOLID TRAMPS two years before the first SSD from Aardvark. These are way lower in cord to keep the aero drag down which, from the practical data I've seen makes some sense. You do lose dancefloor which is a tradeoff, but Luka Damic and Dave Lister are still using trams on conventional wingbars with all the surface area of a thong, and they're fast, so just get the tubes out of the picture and these are the tramps you have left.  Also these are bolt-on, which is marginally more convenient than laminated high-section solid wings like you see on the SSD or James Sainsbury's valkyrie. It does mean the fiber must be working a good deal harder in places, but chris weighs about 88 kilos so once again it looks like chris has nailed the laminate on the first try. 
Rig geometry and consumer decisions: Some off the shelf mast and off the shelf sail which look pretty on the money for  what could be readily bought in 2012. The COP on the mainsail is incredibly high up the mast for this day and age and a lot of the strong spots are built in the wrong place to do the conventional hacks that would bring that downhill. To shift the COP nicely, you'd probably need to do the following. 1. Hack off 14 inches of mast stump 2. redesign/rebuild the vang system and boom 3. cut off the tension bar across the front of the tramp and replace it with a big thick curved mainbeam across the front to get the strength back 4. Build a pizza slice shaped turntable between the rotational axis of the mast and the leading edge of the tramp. 5. Fully endplate the front half of the mainsail down to the turntable thus endplating the sail while not intersecting it fully with an dihedral airfoil (tramps) which should keep the junction drag low. 6, Maybe hack off another foot from the front edge of the tramp to properly offset the two. Not that I'd ever find the time to do it. I've got UFOs to build and sail. Boatwork sucks.
Foils: Good mach2 foils from the era. Once upon a time it had an anhedral mainfoil but apparently it fell off and sank. Fast idea but chris says it was not for public consumption. I've been told that macdougall is making anhedral mainfoils now but I never get out in public enough to have seen one. Makes sense, barring stability. 

All told, it's an immensely creative boat. I've attached a picture from before the sprit got chopped off that shows a lot of what makes it different. Further, being made by chris, you know it's light and tough. Honestly somebody should be trying to pay him more and stop me from buying it. Unlike a second hand production boat, this thing has a soul.

Procrastination over. Back to writing this week's production schedule.

DRC
 

210988_264752700245132_1289136297_o.jpg

Wow, you know more about this boat than I do! It kind of makes me want to hang on to it. FWIW I designed those foils. I was pleased with the flap hinge which is an S-glass/G-flex laminate flush with the top surface. Monofilm wiper on the bottom. The foils seem to be strong too, so that's two good things about them.

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