Brexit, and all it entails

[Saorsa 304]

On 6/22/2018 at 3:27 AM, Shortforbob said:

This sounds even dumber than usual from me, but what I don;t understand is why?

The cold war is supposedly over, what do the russians have to gain by this campaign of meddling?

I get that all countries have their preferences in the leadership of other countries for economic and ideological reasons, but I kind of assumed that this spy V spy thing with the west V Russia was over.

Wht is Putin doing this with the EU and the USA...just becaused he can? or does he really have more sinister world domination kind of motives?

And also..has the west still been trying to cripple russia over the last 30 years since the break up of the USSR?

 

The Russians get to produce chaos in other countries who will be so wrapped up in their own internal issues that they will do nothing to stop the invasion of the Ukraiine, shooting down airliners, or the slow motion invasion of Georgia.

China gets the benefit of all that for free thanks to Putin.

 

[Mismoyled Jiblet. 746]

1 hour ago, Saorsa said:

China gets the benefit of all that for free thanks to Putin. Trump and the dumbshits like Saorsa who support Trump

Fixed it for you mook. He took Crimea and you cheer him.

[Mismoyled Jiblet. 746]

5 hours ago, Saorsa said:

and the shadow education minister seems to think you can revitalize the High Street with libraries and youth clubs instead of businesses.

who the fuck thinks retails going to come back? really, what the fuck planet are you on? some Florida senior center that functions as an adult daycare facilitys? Retails dead, high streets are, for highly productive economic purposes, dead. You either abandon them or reuse them. most of them can not be redeployed for conventional "business". If you lived in the US and were observant, you'd see how non-AB US shopping malls are attempting to redevelop themselves along basically the same lines - public services, perhaps some low yielding restaurants, because retails dead.

[Saorsa 304]

4 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

who the fuck thinks retails going to come back? really, what the fuck planet are you on? some Florida senior center that functions as an adult daycare facilitys? Retails dead, high streets are, for highly productive economic purposes, dead. You either abandon them or reuse them. most of them can not be redeployed for conventional "business". If you lived in the US and were observant, you'd see how non-AB US shopping malls are attempting to redevelop themselves along basically the same lines - public services, perhaps some low yielding restaurants, because retails dead.

Not me.  I don't know where you got the idea that I did.

I was telling you how the Shadow Education Minister felt she would bring them back with libraries and youth clubs.

Retail isn't dead, it just looks different now.  You don't actually believe that Amazon is a wholesale operation do you?

I'm invested in a couple of REITs but none with large mall holdings.   Amazon doesn't actually own all those warehouses and fulfillment centers.

 

[Contumacious Tom 663]

I've been watching MegaLoMart try to become Amazon, but with big stores. They're looking like Amazon, but with big anchors around their neck.

It wasn't that long ago that MegaLoMart was the Death Star of Retail (as Dave Barry recently dubbed Amazon) and Amazon was a quirky seller of used books that didn't even have a store.

[mad 1,531]

Quote

Nigel Lawson, a former chair of the Vote Leave campaign during the EU referendum and one of tens of thousands of Britons living in France, is to apply for his official French residency card.

The former chancellor said he had started the process of applying for one of the cards, known as a carte de séjour, which British expatriates are being encouraged to obtain to help bolster their rights after the UK withdraws from the EU, but added that he was “not particularly worried”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/31/brexiter-nigel-lawson-applies-french-residency-vote-leave?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[mad 1,531]

17 hours ago, Saorsa said:

There are companies in Europe that want to trade with the UK and vice versa.  Trade will happen.  There are too many civil contracts that will not be voided with a political change.  The terms might suffer but folks in the UK will still be able to buy BMWs and folks in the EU will still be able to buy Jags. 

The BBC has a program called Question Time.  It's a panel program with a moderator, an MP from each party usually a cabinet member and their shadow, a local MP and a couple of Journalists.  The audience gets to ask the questions, the responses are remarkably polite but intense.

The politicians are almost an embarrassment in most cases.  Neither Dimbleby or the audience lets them spin too long saying nothing.

The general feeling from the audience comes across as "Well, we are getting out regardless, why don't you idiots pull your socks up and get to work". 

Some of them are calling for a 'referendum on the deal".  I don't see that as anything but silly.  The event will occur regardless of the "deal".  The UK would be better off spending the next 11 month preparing for the state change and disregard the idiocy of parliament political manoeuvering .

Quote

The European aircraft maker Airbus could be the first of many firms to threaten to end its investment in Britain, putting tens of thousands of jobs at risk, if the government cannot provide urgent clarity on Brexit, the leading business lobby group has warned.

 

 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/theresa-may-will-listen-to-airbus-brexit-concerns-no-10-says?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Saorsa 304]

12 minutes ago, mad said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/31/brexiter-nigel-lawson-applies-french-residency-vote-leave?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Wait, he's actually following the law to get the equivalent of a green card?

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[Saorsa 304]

8 minutes ago, mad said:

 

 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/theresa-may-will-listen-to-airbus-brexit-concerns-no-10-says?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

March 19th is coming.  The date is not an accident.  They want to get through one more St. Patricks day before shutting the border again.

 

[mad 1,531]

4 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Wait, he's actually following the law to get the equivalent of a green card?

Sounds like a good idea.

 

He’s a two-faced cunt. 

[SloopJonB 2,528]

On 6/20/2018 at 10:22 AM, Lark said:

I respect a man willing to change his mind to fit the evidence, instead of the alternative.  You would make a lousy American politician.

But does he still use the toilet brush to scrub his entire head compartment?

[mad 1,531]

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-reassures-ceos-after-boris-johnson-f-business-claim-11417620

straight out of the Trump diplomacy handbook. 

 

Quote

The prime minister declined to say if she reprimanded Mr Johnson, who reportedly said "f*** business" when asked about the fears of some business leaders over the nature of the UK's exit from the EU.

Very shortly after Mrs May's backing for business, Mr Johnson did not deny the remarks during an appearance in the House of Commons on Tuesday.

Asked if he could justify the alleged outburst, Mr Johnson replied: "I don't think anybody could doubt the passionate support of this Government for business.

he’s on a roll with this one. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/26/brexit-uncertainty-has-already-hit-investment-in-car-industry-manufacturers-say-politics-live

Quote

Boris Johnson criticised after telling MPs why he is 'increasingly admiring' of Trump – as it happened

 

[LeoV 371]

There is now a big EU top, and two days were planned to talk about the UK plans, so after the summer there was an half year to implant it...

No UK plan, no talks, its will be a last minute deal...

[SloopJonB 2,528]

Boris Johnson is almost as big a moron as Trump.

Almost.

[mad 1,531]

50 minutes ago, LeoV said:

There is now a big EU top, and two days were planned to talk about the UK plans, so after the summer there was an half year to implant it...

No UK plan, no talks, its will be a last minute deal...

Not sure if it’s going to be much of a deal the way it’s going. 

[mad 1,531]

4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Boris Johnson is almost as big a moron as Trump.

Almost.

[SloopJonB 2,528]

I'd be very surprised if Brexit ever actually happens.

I suspect that it will shamble along, accomplishing nothing until the old fools who voted for it have died off and it will then be allowed to die a natural death or there will be another referendum on it.

My daughter lives in England with her family and they tell us that the younger people are furious at the old white assholes who voted for it because their beer would have gone up a bit.

Seriously - it was that trivial. They make Trump supporters look like intellectuals.

[Shortforbob 570]

7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I'd be very surprised if Brexit ever actually happens.

I suspect that it will shamble along, accomplishing nothing until the old fools who voted for it have died off and it will then be allowed to die a natural death or there will be another referendum on it.

My daughter lives in England with her family and they tell us that the younger people are furious at the old white assholes who voted for it because their beer would have gone up a bit.

Seriously - it was that trivial. They make Trump supporters look like intellectuals.

Yeah..the tabloids have been doing a job on that generation since 1973. British sausages to be banned (meat content regs), beer mats to be banned (dunno where this came from, the yellow in Leicester cheese to be banned...sometimes I wondered if this was a cruel game Murdoch was playing with the plebs.

[Ease the sheet. 413]

Britain post brexit will make brirain pre 1950 seem like heaven.....

[mad 1,531]

7 hours ago, Lying Malarky said:

Britain post brexit will make brirain pre 1950 seem like heaven.....

That’s the utopia the leave voters are looking for. 

[Ease the sheet. 413]

Its going to be great having the old enemy back....

[Bill R 6]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/11/uk-government-very-seriously-examining-arron-banks-russian-links  seems like tose pesky russians have  fiddled with everything.

 

[LeoV 371]

Weird is that the UK was always against an EU army, but now they signed a deal with a few EU countries to form a rapid deployment force. This is outside of the EU army deal.
At least there is some results in talks between Eu and UK, showing the military are more pragmatic then politicians, as expected.

[mad 1,531]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/29/eu-uk-divide-poses-serious-threat-to-brexit-talks-says-barnier?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Quote

Brexit: EU leaders say single-market access for goods a nonstarter

Well this is working out well for us. 

[SloopJonB 2,528]

Divorce with bedroom privileges.

[mad 1,531]

30 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Divorce with bedroom privileges.

Quite possibly, it’ll be the UK that’s gets the fucking that’s for sure. 

[Mismoyled Jiblet. 746]

3 hours ago, mad said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/29/eu-uk-divide-poses-serious-threat-to-brexit-talks-says-barnier?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Well this is working out well for us. 

"you'll always have the WTO"

< aide enters with cue card that states "and the US is withdrawing from the WTO >

"well, good luck with that"

[Mickey Rat 57]

6 hours ago, mad said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/29/eu-uk-divide-poses-serious-threat-to-brexit-talks-says-barnier?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Well this is working out well for us. 

Naturally, the EU is not going to make this easy. 

[LeoV 371]

And the UK is not making it easy.
5 options
5, like Norway
4, like Swiss
3, like Turkey, Linky
2, in between Turkey and 1, never been done, still problem of North Ireland borders.
1, total exit

5,4,3 impossible because of UK demands.

2, UK you better come up with a good plan

1, easiest, good bye and good luck. Getting my Q flag out of the dustbin.

[mad 1,531]

7 hours ago, Mickey Rat said:

Naturally, the EU is not going to make this easy. 

A shame those that wanted out didn’t think about this when they voted. 

[mad 1,531]

10 minutes ago, LeoV said:

And the UK is not making it easy.
5 options
5, like Norway
4, like Swiss
3, like Turkey, Linky
2, in between Turkey and 1, never been done, still problem of North Ireland borders.
1, total exit

5,4,3 impossible because of UK demands.

2, UK you better come up with a good plan

1, easiest, good bye and good luck. Getting my Q flag out of the dustbin.

Good luck with the Q flag and waiting for customs clearance, we don’t have anywhere near enough customs officials to man anything but the largest ports. And even then, visiting yachts are going to be way down the list. 

To add,

Taking into account the summer break for politicians, there’s only 6 weeks left for us to formulate the deal before presenting it!!

We’re fucked! 

[LeoV 371]

Just now, mad said:

Good luck with the Q flag and waiting for customs clearance, we don’t have anywhere near enough customs officials to man anything but the largest ports. And even then, visiting yachts are going to be way down the list. 

Good luck, migrant smugglers love turmoil.
But you are already preparing:

[Mickey Rat 57]

8 minutes ago, mad said:

A shame those that wanted out didn’t think about this when they voted. 

I'm surprised they were even allowed to vote, I don't see the EU making that mistake again. But yes, of course, they will do what they can to make an example of them. 

[mad 1,531]

2 minutes ago, Mickey Rat said:

I'm surprised they were even allowed to vote, I don't see the EU making that mistake again. But yes, of course, they will do what they can to make an example of them. 

The EU can’t stop countries having a referendum, they will however make an exit look as unappealing as possible. 

[Albatros 40]

13 minutes ago, mad said:

Good luck with the Q flag and waiting for customs clearance, we don’t have anywhere near enough customs officials to man anything but the largest ports. And even then, visiting yachts are going to be way down the list. 

To add,

Taking into account the summer break for politicians, there’s only 6 weeks left for us to formulate the deal before presenting it!!

We’re fucked! 

on the upside, our customs won't have legal grounds anymore to extort british yachts coming in with red diesel ... always look on the bright side of life...

[LeoV 371]

10 minutes ago, mad said:

The EU can’t stop countries having a referendum, they will however make an exit look as unappealing as possible. 

They hoped for a Norway solution. Pay and have nothing to say

The whole situation will only be clear in a year of ten. Its a big gamble.

[mad 1,531]

 

Quote

Significant planning is going on to prepare the NHS for the prospect of a no-deal Brexit, including securing continuation of medical supplies, the head of the health service has said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/01/nhs-preparing-for-disruption-to-supplies-from-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

 

[mad 1,531]

15 minutes ago, LeoV said:

They hoped for a Norway solution. Pay and have nothing to say

The whole situation will only be clear in a year of ten. Its a big gamble.

Gambling when the odds are firmly against you is lunacy. 

[Albatros 40]

grin, there is so much planning going on to prepare for the no-deal Brexit that at some point in time one or another bright bulb might come to the conclusion that there is no point anymore in getting a deal as all has been planned anyhow

[LeoV 371]

Invest in fruit and veggie companies, you import 90%, and the margins for the producer are razor thin here in holland, so a difficult export, why bother.

[SloopJonB 2,528]

3 hours ago, mad said:

Gambling when the odds are firmly against you is lunacy. 

Works for Vegas.

[mad 1,531]

16 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Works for Vegas.

Always works for the house, just this time we’re not the house, we’re the stooge. 

[mad 1,531]

16 hours ago, LeoV said:

Invest in fruit and veggie companies, you import 90%, and the margins for the producer are razor thin here in holland, so a difficult export, why bother.

Thanks for the tip. 

[LeoV 371]

And how is the new proposal from May ? You think finally the Uk mp's will get a plan to offer the EU ?
When was the last time she publicised a plan before this one? August last year ? And there was no agreement in the UK for it ?
What is the difference between old and new plan ? Nothing ?
Blistering speed ...

[mad 1,531]

23 minutes ago, LeoV said:

And how is the new proposal from May ? You think finally the Uk mp's will get a plan to offer the EU ?
When was the last time she publicised a plan before this one? August last year ? And there was no agreement in the UK for it ?
What is the difference between old and new plan ? Nothing ?
Blistering speed ...

Its not actually been announced yet and won't be until next week. Unless of course the Tories tear themselves apart over it. They can't even agree amongst themselves, I'm not holding out much hope.  We want all the benefits of the EU without being in it.

 

Quote

Downing Street has produced a third model for handling customs after the UK leaves the EU, the BBC understands.

Details of the new plan have not been revealed publicly but senior ministers will discuss it at Chequers, the prime minister's country retreat, on Friday.

Ministers have been involved in heated discussions recently as they tried to choose between two earlier models.

Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg says the PM risks a revolt if the type of Brexit she promised is not delivered.

The PM is set to be pressed to give more detail of the plan when she faces MPs in the House of Commons from about 17:00 BST.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44671507

[LeoV 371]

Infighting probably will continue, nice to have members as Johnson and Rees/Mogg.
So, exit May before September ?
Will she retire in France ?

 

[The Main Man 36]

Danny Dyer recently became my favourite actor.... here’s why. The sting in the tail at the end gets me every time!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/film/video/2018/jun/29/danny-dyer-attacks-david-cameron-over-brexit-video

[Shootist Jeff 658]

On 7/1/2018 at 2:46 PM, mad said:

Good luck with the Q flag and waiting for customs clearance, we don’t have anywhere near enough customs officials to man anything but the largest ports. And even then, visiting yachts are going to be way down the list. 

To add,

Taking into account the summer break for politicians, there’s only 6 weeks left for us to formulate the deal before presenting it!!

We’re fucked! 

Sounds like a good jobs program to hire more customs officials.  

Personally, I think the UK should just rip off the bandaid and be done with it.  Its not like there are not other countries out there to trade with.  The market for your goods and services doesn't go away over night, nor does the UK market for euro goods go away.  There will be trade both ways, it will just look different that it does now.  Just fucking Brexit and tell Brussels to go fuck themselves.  Because they are going to try to fuck you no matter how hard you negotiate a fair deal.  So just get it over with and go your own way and work on bilateral trade deals.  Every country has the right to control their own destiny.  The people voted, get the fuck on with it.  Elections have consequences.  So the No Leave side lost.  The Remainers should have tried harder to win.  Its done, so get on with it. 

I think the issue with Theresa is she doesn't believe in it (Brexit) and therefore her heart is not in standing her ground and doing what she must do.  I predict she will be gone in the next 6-9 months.  A year tops.  

I continue to maintain that every country should have the right to determine its own destiny.  And I think this is the central issue with the EU.  When the UK joined the EEC in 1973, it made perfect sense when it was a purely economic common trade agreement.  The problem is that it morphed into the EU and the EU became a quasi gov't that sought to manage ALL aspects of a member nation's business - both social and economic.  It was the heavy handed EU regulations and resultant loss of national identity that, IMHO, drove the UK to want to leave.  I can't say that I blame them.  Had the EU stayed a purely economic compact, there would be no talk of a Brexit.  But as soon as Brussels essentially is running a large chunk of the UK's society from afar and telling the UK gov't what they can and can't do in many areas - I think that is the time to tell them to fuck off. 

Here is an interesting as well balanced look at the benefits of EU membership to the UK:  https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

As an aside, This old text, that is relevant still to this day, I think sums up the UK's grievances quite well:

Quote

 

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain President of the European Union is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British European brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown EU, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

 

 

[mad 1,531]

7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Sounds like a good jobs program to hire more customs officials.  

Personally, I think the UK should just rip off the bandaid and be done with it.  Its not like there are not other countries out there to trade with.  The market for your goods and services doesn't go away over night, nor does the UK market for euro goods go away.  There will be trade both ways, it will just look different that it does now.  Just fucking Brexit and tell Brussels to go fuck themselves.  Because they are going to try to fuck you no matter how hard you negotiate a fair deal.  So just get it over with and go your own way and work on bilateral trade deals.  Every country has the right to control their own destiny.  The people voted, get the fuck on with it.  Elections have consequences.  So the No Leave side lost.  The Remainers should have tried harder to win.  Its done, so get on with it. 

I think the issue with Theresa is she doesn't believe in it (Brexit) and therefore her heart is not in standing her ground and doing what she must do.  I predict she will be gone in the next 6-9 months.  A year tops.  

I continue to maintain that every country should have the right to determine its own destiny.  And I think this is the central issue with the EU.  When the UK joined the EEC in 1973, it made perfect sense when it was a purely economic common trade agreement.  The problem is that it morphed into the EU and the EU became a quasi gov't that sought to manage ALL aspects of a member nation's business - both social and economic.  It was the heavy handed EU regulations and resultant loss of national identity that, IMHO, drove the UK to want to leave.  I can't say that I blame them.  Had the EU stayed a purely economic compact, there would be no talk of a Brexit.  But as soon as Brussels essentially is running a large chunk of the UK's society from afar and telling the UK gov't what they can and can't do in many areas - I think that is the time to tell them to fuck off. 

Here is an interesting as well balanced look at the benefits of EU membership to the UK:  https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

As an aside, This old text, that is relevant still to this day, I think sums up the UK's grievances quite well:

 

It’s not quite as simple as just walking away, and it’s definitely not in the UKs interests to go it alone. That’s been apparent to many from the beginning and is slowly sinking in to the less ardent Brexit fans. Nobody really had a clue what it would entail during the referendum, and most of the Brexit campaign was a pack of lies, (admittedly the remain campaign also made a complete mess of the campaign as well). Add to that the ever increasing tie up with the Brexit groups, UKIP and Russia and it makes you wonder about the whole process!!??

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/04/vote-leave-breached-electoral-rules-watchdog-will-find-reports?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is evident because after 2 years of fucking around we still have no plan in place, neither the EU nor the UK can make up their minds what is the most advantageous way forward. 

Quote

Hardline Eurosceptic MPs have begun to voice concerns at Theresa May’s plans to negotiate a soft Brexit deal, raising the possibility of a Commons rebellion by Tory Brexiters.

After a high-stakes Chequers awayday, the prime minister managed to sign up her fractious cabinet to a UK-EU free trade area under a “common rulebook” that will match EU standards on foods and goods.

The plan has alarmed Brexiters, who believe it signals that Britain will in effect remain subject to EU rules and unable to negotiate new trade deals.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/06/theresa-may-secures-approval-from-cabinet-to-negotiate-soft-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The only party that wholy wanted Brexit was UKIP, and they’ve imploded and nowhere to be seen. No sign has ever been seen of their Brexit plans, most likely, because it never existed. 

I’d rather place more faith in the views of business leaders than the current elected idiots (both sides)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/06/government-has-no-clue-how-to-execute-brexit-without-harm-airbus-chief?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/04/jaguar-land-rovers-80bn-uk-investment-plan-at-risk-after-hard-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Neither side is going to get what they want out of this, it’s going to be a long drawn out process and very expensive, with almost certainly no real benefit to either side.  It’s a fuckup from start to finish..... and nobody knows where the finish is  

 

 

[Raz'r 967]

6 minutes ago, mad said:

It’s not quite as simple as just walking away, and it’s definitely not in the UKs interests to go it alone. That’s been apparent to many from the beginning and is slowly sinking in to the less ardent Brexit fans. Nobody really had a clue what it would entail during the referendum, and most of the Brexit campaign was a pack of lies, (admittedly the remain campaign also made a complete mess of the campaign as well). Add to that the ever increasing tie up with the Brexit groups, UKIP and Russia and it makes you wonder about the whole process!!??

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/04/vote-leave-breached-electoral-rules-watchdog-will-find-reports?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is evident because after 2 years of fucking around we still have no plan in place, neither the EU nor the UK can make up their minds what is the most advantageous way forward. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/06/theresa-may-secures-approval-from-cabinet-to-negotiate-soft-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The only party that wholy wanted Brexit was UKIP, and they’ve imploded and nowhere to be seen. No sign has ever been seen of their Brexit plans, most likely, because it never existed. 

I’d rather place more faith in the views of business leaders than the current elected idiots (both sides)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/06/government-has-no-clue-how-to-execute-brexit-without-harm-airbus-chief?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/04/jaguar-land-rovers-80bn-uk-investment-plan-at-risk-after-hard-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Neither side is going to get what they want out of this, it’s going to be a long drawn out process and very expensive, with almost certainly no real benefit to either side.  It’s a fuckup from start to finish..... and nobody knows where the finish is  

 

 

Russia got what it wanted. Just sayin 

[Mismoyled Jiblet. 746]

8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Sounds like a good jobs program to hire more customs officials.  

Personally, I think the UK should just rip off the bandaid and be done with it.  Its not like there are not other countries out there to trade with.  The market for your goods and services doesn't go away over night, nor does the UK market for euro goods go away.  There will be trade both ways, it will just look different that it does now.  Just fucking Brexit and tell Brussels to go fuck themselves.  Because they are going to try to fuck you no matter how hard you negotiate a fair deal.  So just get it over with and go your own way and work on bilateral trade deals.  Every country has the right to control their own destiny.  The people voted, get the fuck on with it.  Elections have consequences.  So the No Leave side lost.  The Remainers should have tried harder to win.  Its done, so get on with it. 

So after 2 years it's still the same fact-free, reality-free, emotionally driven conservative bullshit.  here's something you are just as fucking stupid as Trump at understanding - the UK can't negotiate bilaterals with any EU country. They have to go through the EU - which is a majority of their imports, and almost a majority of their exports. Anyways, you and the rest of the yank conservatives will continue with this bullshit I'm sure.

Meanwhile, David Cameroon is selling out the UK in China right now

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-03/riding-china-s-rise-the-european-politicians-in-beijing-s-orbit

32 minutes ago, mad said:

This is evident because after 2 years of fucking around we still have no plan in place, neither the EU nor the UK can make up their minds what is the most advantageous way forward. 

There isn't a path to de-integrate a large nation in a global economy without substantial short and long term economic disruption. It's just clowns like Jeff - who loves his global jetsetting lifestyle - who want to go back to some bullshit fantasy of the past that think you can.

[Shootist Jeff 658]

1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Russia got what it wanted. Just sayin 

In the US or the UK?

[RKoch 998]

50 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

In the US or the UK?

Both. Russia wants to weaken western trade and military alliances. Mission accomplished.

 

[mad 1,531]

9 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Both. Russia wants to weaken western trade and military alliances. Mission accomplished.

 

It’s that very old fashioned divide and conquer routine. 

[Xlot 64]

 

  ^ Silver lining: it’s far more lively than Fukuyama’s boring Triumph of Democracy scenario. John le Carré might go back to writing novels with decent plots

[Mickey Rat 57]

9 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Both. Russia wants to weaken western trade and military alliances. Mission accomplished.

 

The Helsinki summit is literally a chance to stop a new Cold War, so why do you think that a deal between the US and Russia is such a bad thing and that it will weaken western trade and military alliances? 

[RKoch 998]

10 minutes ago, Mickey Rat said:

The Helsinki summit is literally a chance to stop a new Cold War, so why do you think that a deal between the US and Russia is such a bad thing and that it will weaken western trade and military alliances? 

If Trump gets a deal with Putin like the deal he got with Lil' Kim, maybe he'll get a Nobel?

Trump is a petulant child trying to play an adult game...he's way over his head. If Putin's Puppet continues throwing temper tantrums in G7 and NATO, it weakens those relationships and helps Putin. Likewise, Putin's interference in the Brexit vote. Putin is racking up win after win.

[Saorsa 304]

If you want to worry about a nuclear threat, Fukushima is still hot.

 

[Amati 340]

2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

In the US or the UK?

Everywhere except China.

I wonder if Trump will turn to China when things start going bad when this flirtation with Putin goes bad.

like Mary MacGregor Crooned:

.....torn between two lovers,

feelin’ like a fool 

loving both of you 

is breaking all the rules......

Is it just me, or does Trump talk like a hooker trying to sound intellectual?

[Mickey Rat 57]

52 minutes ago, RKoch said:

Trump is a petulant child trying to play an adult game...he's way over his head. If Putin's Puppet continues throwing temper tantrums in G7 and NATO, it weakens those relationships and helps Putin. Likewise, Putin's interference in the Brexit vote. Putin is racking up win after win.

 

Sorry but these are all positives as far as I'm concerned. Thanks, Putin. 

[RKoch 998]

1 hour ago, Mickey Rat said:

Sorry but these are all positives as far as I'm concerned. Thanks, Putin. 

Because isolationism worked so well in the 30s?  <roll eyes>

[Ease the sheet. 413]

10 hours ago, mad said:

It’s that very old fashioned divide and conquer routine. 

Thread drift. As Russia increases in power and influence,  it won't be at China's expense.....

[Mickey Rat 57]

15 hours ago, RKoch said:

Because isolationism worked so well in the 30s?  <roll eyes>

Do you mean Uncle Joe, Mao or Hitler? Hell, let's take it back to the 1910's and America's role in the Bolshevik revolution right up until the destruction of Lybia, Syria, Yemen. 

Agreed, US non-intervention would have saved countless lives. 

[mad 1,531]

Well this is  going well!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/jul/09/david-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-live-updates?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Quote

David Davis steps down as Brexit secretary in blow to PM – live updates

Then again, he was another lying sack of shit anyway. So it’s no surprise he finally quit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/06/sector-by-sector-brexit-impact-forecasts-do-not-exist-says-david-davis

Quote

The UK government has produced no economic forecasts on the likely impact of Brexit on various sectors of the economy, David Davis has told a committee of MPs who have attempted to examine the studies.

The revelation prompted calls from some MPs for the Brexit secretary to be held in contempt of parliament if it were found he had held back any details of such assessments, which a vote in the Commons last month demanded he released.

 

[mad 1,531]

And another one. 

Quote

LONDON (Reuters) - Steve Baker, a minister in Britain’s Brexit department, has resigned from the government, the Telegraph newspaper reported on Monday, shortly after the resignation of his boss, Brexit minister David Davis.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-baker/uk-brexit-department-minister-steve-baker-resigns-telegraph-idUSKBN1JY11X

[Shortforbob 570]

Rats leaving sinking island?

[Shortforbob 570]

1 hour ago, mad said:

Well this is  going well!!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/jul/09/david-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-live-updates?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Then again, he was another lying sack of shit anyway. So it’s no surprise he finally quit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/06/sector-by-sector-brexit-impact-forecasts-do-not-exist-says-david-davis

 

wow that's some revelations..hanging from lamp post time.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/06/sector-by-sector-brexit-impact-forecasts-do-not-exist-says-david-davis

(but not before trumps visit please, we dont want to get the blood up too soon)

[LeoV 371]

18 of 24 months gone now, 6 left, and still the UK is infighting.

Newest proposal;
UK a kind of free zone, EU imports and exports no tax or customs (as if they did not leave), rest of world according to trade deals with UK only.
How the hell can they control that, impossible, will be a smugglers dream.
What is the benefit for the EU, some trade will be easier, but control of non Eu goods entering EU by the  UK asks for a lot of regulation, its probably cheaper to except trade with the UK will be less. Specially as the Pound Euro value will dictate most of the costs difference. It is already less profitable to deal with the UK.
If the exit is soft of hard, the trade with the UK will be hurt.

It was so easy, pick the total out,Norway, Swiss, Turkey or Canada deal. Nah they thought they could broker a special deal.
Turkey and Canada deal took a decade to work out, it would work out as total exit.

BTW, if the UK chooses total out, the Eu are not allowed to deal in nuclear material. Do your hospitals know ?

[mad 1,531]

14 minutes ago, LeoV said:

18 of 24 months gone now, 6 left, and still the UK is infighting.

Newest proposal;
UK a kind of free zone, EU imports and exports no tax or customs (as if they did not leave), rest of world according to trade deals with UK only.
How the hell can they control that, impossible, will be a smugglers dream.
What is the benefit for the EU, some trade will be easier, but control of non Eu goods entering EU by the  UK asks for a lot of regulation, its probably cheaper to except trade with the UK will be less. Specially as the Pound Euro value will dictate most of the costs difference. It is already less profitable to deal with the UK.
If the exit is soft of hard, the trade with the UK will be hurt.

It was so easy, pick the total out,Norway, Swiss, Turkey or Canada deal. Nah they thought they could broker a special deal.
Turkey and Canada deal took a decade to work out, it would work out as total exit.

BTW, if the UK chooses total out, the Eu are not allowed to deal in nuclear material. Do your hospitals know ?

There's not even 6 months left, the fuckers go on summer holiday 24th July until 4th of Sept.

It's a joke, they're all sitting there claiming they've come to a deal, but it's just a deal amongst themselves, and even that hasn't worked by the look of the resignations etc. They haven't even started to sell the deal to the EU, who probably trying not to laugh.

EU not allowed to trade nuclear to non-eu countries?? I hadn't heard that one, but i'm not surprised. We probably have a special deal in mind for that as well.  Or we'll just end up buying it elsewhere.......depending on what our final relationship with the EU is.

[LeoV 371]

You have the International Atom agency, or something like that.
You can only trade if you have setup an agency to control all nuclear activities.
So all is save etc etc. If a country agency is not setup to those rules, no trade, but it seems the international deal is there, then the Eu agency have to ask UK how the transport will be, have to agree on that. Then the customs rules have to be clear, then the tariff on it.  Then there will be a deal. Can be done in a few months.
So that is the bureaucratic stuff. Then the real life problems, its nuclear and needs to be transported quickly.

quote from some site;
Membership in Euratom has helped Britain become a leading manufacturer of reactor fuel and a key participant in EU-led nuclear research projects. Prime Minister Theresa May’s government has drawn fire for the decision to leave Euratom. The organization governs the transport of radioactive materials, reactor fuel, medical isotopes and commercial atomic technology.

of course the gov is optimistic;
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-meeting-milestones-for-euratom-exit

But in practice, the medical isotopes will be a problem, and there is already shortage, the Dutch producer should actually close down for safety inspections etc, but got a pass as the shortage would be more deadly then a mayor incident on that plant. They do now the renovation in small parts.
https://www.businessinsider.nl/brexit-cancer-treatment-euratom-patients-at-risk-2018-3/?international=true&amp;r=UK

So if hard exit, the UK has to setup its own isotope production, will be expensive.

I used the stuff and it cured me, that is why I followed this with more interest then normal.

[LeoV 371]

The Customs plan is funny;

Customs Plan

• First there were two plans and the Cabinet couldn’t agree on either (remember Maximum Facilitation and the New Customs Partnership?)
• Now the Cabinet has agreed to a third way: it’s called a Facilitated Customs Agreement. The U.K. will collect tariffs on behalf of the EU and refunds will be offered if the U.K.’s tariffs are different.
• It will be introduced “in stages as both sides complete the necessary preparations."
• The EU has been very frosty about any plan that delegates its tax collection to the U.K. and there are also concerns about smuggling. Germany doesn’t like it.

Yeah, we will let the UK collect taxes for the EU, yeah right.

The Irish Border

• The Cabinet reckons it’s found a way out of the Irish border stalemate -- the main sticking point in talks -- and this will make it easier to get the divorce deal that’s due to be signed in October.
• The new plan would remove the need for a policed frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. While both sides want to avoid a hard border, each side rejects the other’s idea -- known as backstop proposals -- to guarantee that. The Cabinet says the new plan means a backstop won’t be needed, and this will make it easier to reach a deal. Check out the exact wording here: It’s point 5.

Yeah, right, Open border there, you can hear the people smugglers already scooping out the area.
It will be like the Spanish enclaves in Africa.

And on it goes,

[Contumacious Tom 663]

On 7/7/2018 at 1:42 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

I continue to maintain that every country should have the right to determine its own destiny.  And I think this is the central issue with the EU.  When the UK joined the EEC in 1973, it made perfect sense when it was a purely economic common trade agreement. 

The common market didn't make all that much sense even then. A Greek Drachma just never was a German Mark. Neither was a British pound. Their attempt to make all that (and the underlying government solvency issues) go away with the Euro hasn't really made it go away.

So it made some Brits want to go away.

[mad 1,531]

Quote

Boris Johnson has resigned as Foreign Secretary amid a growing political crisis over the UK's Brexit strategy.

He is the second senior cabinet minister to quit within hours following Brexit Secretary David Davis's exit.

His departure came shortly before Theresa May began addressing Parliament about her new Brexit plan, which has angered many Conservative MPs.

She said she did not agree with the two ex-ministers about "the best way to honour" the result of the 2016 vote.

The BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg said Mr Johnson's exit had turned an "embarrassing and difficult situation for the PM into potentially a full-blown crisis".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44770847

[Mismoyled Jiblet. 746]

2 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

The common market didn't make all that much sense even then. A Greek Drachma just never was a German Mark. Neither was a British pound.

good to see you've stopped believing in free trade. the common market has enabled free movement of people* and goods around europe at scale. you either believe in that or you don't.

*just look at all the complaints from the Brexiters about people from Eastern & southern europe stealing English jobs and their desire to return power to the UK so they can decrease said free movement of people. Well, they don't want foreigners in, but they want cheap holidays to Magaluf to get drunk.

[mad 1,531]

8 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

good to see you've stopped believing in free trade. the common market has enabled free movement of people* and goods around europe at scale. you either believe in that or you don't.

*just look at all the complaints from the Brexiters about people from Eastern & southern europe stealing English jobs.

Seems like we all need to have free movement of people at times.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/27/uk-farmers-strawberries-migrant-workers-crisis

[LeoV 371]

Oh, joy, it is getting worse. Boris out.

Seasonal workers, perfect place for illegal immigrants, just like in Spain and Italy.
http://oecdobserver.org/news/archivestory.php/aid/191/Where_do_illegal_migrants_work_.html

[dogwatch 227]

18 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Oh, joy, it is getting worse. Boris out.

 

No it's better. Now he will have time to lie down in front of that bulldozer as he promised. I hope it runs him over. That's my idea of a great and glorious future.

[mad 1,531]

I’m far more concerned about a leadership battle and Boris ending up as leader and Prime Minister!! 

Imagine Trump and Boris dealing with international diplomacy?!  

Never mind the fact that there’s only 3 weeks left for negotiations before the summer break....... we don’t have any internal agreement, let alone anyone to propose this to the EU. What a glorious fuck up this is turning out to be. 

[LeoV 371]

There will be an emergency meeting in November, Eu-UK, last chance to get a soft deal.

[SloopJonB 2,528]

Boris Johnson is a dangerous fucking moron - Britain's very own Trump.

Good riddance to him.

[mad 1,531]

2 hours ago, LeoV said:

There will be an emergency meeting in November, Eu-UK, last chance to get a soft deal.

Thanks Leo, you seem to be more up to date than I am with the last ditch plans. Is that actually in the diary for them? 

[mad 1,531]

3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Boris Johnson is a dangerous fucking moron - Britain's very own Trump.

Good riddance to him.

Absolutely agreed, unfortunately I don’t think this is the end of Boris and his political plans. 

[Fah Kiew Tu 500]

4 hours ago, mad said:

Never mind the fact that there’s only 3 weeks left for negotiations before the summer break....... we don’t have any internal agreement, let alone anyone to propose this to the EU. What a glorious fuck up this is turning out to be. 

Yes - it's wonderfully entertaining to watch.... pity my daughter is heading off to the UK & Europe next year though, might not be quite so entertaining up close.

FKT

[LeoV 371]

8 hours ago, mad said:

Thanks Leo, you seem to be more up to date than I am with the last ditch plans. Is that actually in the diary for them? 

Just listening to a well informed journalist, radio program called ;our man in Brussel.
Its logic, as all members need to agree, that takes 4 months, so last talk possible end November maybe early December.
It is not planned hence the emergency tag, but everyone in Brussel expect it.

It has my interest as it is the next big Eu thing after the monetary union. A big experiment.
The result in a few decades can be good, who knows, but the way it is handled right now is a kind of slapstick.

[Ease the sheet. 413]

8 hours ago, mad said:

Absolutely agreed, unfortunately I don’t think this is the end of Boris and his political plans. 

I think boris agrees. ......

[Shootist Jeff 658]

17 hours ago, mad said:

I’m far more concerned about a leadership battle and Boris ending up as leader and Prime Minister!! 

Imagine Trump and Boris dealing with international diplomacy?!  

Never mind the fact that there’s only 3 weeks left for negotiations before the summer break....... we don’t have any internal agreement, let alone anyone to propose this to the EU. What a glorious fuck up this is turning out to be. 

I think Boris' move was exactly to make a run at getting May booted and making a run for PM himself.  As I predicted, I don't think Teresa is going to last 6 months.  

And again, I think the glorious Cockup has been entirely of TM's making.  She's tried to be too soft with the EU instead of playing hardball.  They were going to try to fuck the UK anyway as punishment.  She gave away too much for little in return.  So of course Brussels is not going to cooperate.  Her heart was simply not in it, IMHO and they knew it.  

[mad 1,531]

18 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I think Boris' move was exactly to make a run at getting May booted and making a run for PM himself.  As I predicted, I don't think Teresa is going to last 6 months.  

And again, I think the glorious Cockup has been entirely of TM's making.  She's tried to be too soft with the EU instead of playing hardball.  They were going to try to fuck the UK anyway as punishment.  She gave away too much for little in return.  So of course Brussels is not going to cooperate.  Her heart was simply not in it, IMHO and they knew it.  

It’s not completely Mays fault, it’s the whole of the party scrabbling around for ideas that’ll work, they’ve wasted 2 years infighting and having an election etc. The biggest issue is that not one single person had the slightest idea what was involved in this, nobody!

The few within the party that want a hard Brexit are people like Jacob Rees Mogg.......just take a look and listen to him for a couple of minutes and decide if he’s really connected to reality or not.

What would you suggest as a good hardball options to try? Remembering that the UK is completely outnumbered and the EU can just tell us to fuck off.....which is basically what will happen anyway I believe. 

There is a much bigger picture to this than us just trying to negotiate trade deals with other countries.