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Women of the VOR in the New York Times

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14 hours ago, yl75 said:

They missed a couple, Marie Riou for instance

 

Marie's portrait is included in the article. It states that there were 22 women sailing in the race and there are 13 images, so maybe not everyone was available. In any case, very interesting read and great images.

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This well-written article continues discussions that have occurred on other threads on ORA and SA, including AC. For all outward appearances, the crew rule ("Rule") for this edition of the VOR was a success. To the extent that some of the female crew members were privately complaining that they were given less responsibility on board the boats, and if what Dee Caffari said several times in skipper pressers and elsewhere that female VOR crew, unlike their male crew members, did not have jobs lined up after the race, it is concerning.

Regarding the first issue, there are a fair number of female VOR crew who have no offshore racing experience at all; Marie Riou is one, Martine is another. So it is possible that some female crew members were not permitted or were not given the opportunity to perform tasks requiring increased skill requirements and responsibility such as driving, for that reason. Perhaps also they did not seek these opportunities out. However, I saw both Marie and Martine drive  their respective boats; I also admittedly have no idea who the women are that were complaining about their less responsible job assignments.

The two skippers who were the most vocal before the race about the mixed crew Rule were David Witt and Bouwe Bekking,  Their stated problem with the rule was that they did not like the RC dictating their crew choices. Neither of them publicly expressed other concerns, such as some of those discussed in the article (incl strength). Bouwe did initially hire two women, one left and joined Witty's team ostensibly because she wanted to sail every leg and Bouwe would not promise her that. Bouww then hired a second woman, and still started with 2.   Witty was slower to come around but quickly recognized, he said, the need for more bodies and hired Annemieke and then Libby, perhaps because by that point in time Steve Hayles was no longer a crew member.  The reason both men included two women in their crew was so they could have a full crew complement of 9. Dee exercised the option of having a 50-50 crew composition so she had an even larger crew.

I have asked in various threads and forums if anyone was aware of any skippers who were displeased with the performance of the female crew members by virtue of for example their size, relative lack of strength, or lack of expertise (though one of the stated reasons for the Rule was to provide  women the opportunity to gain the experience and develop said expertise), and did not get any direct response to that specific question.  It would be interesting to see if these same skippers would bring back their female crew members, or substitute female crew members, without the crew Rule.

When I have discussed the Rule with (male) friends, they expressed surprise that women would be required to be crew members in this offshore race, and consistently brought up strength as an issue. On certain types of boats with certain sized crew, I think it could be a legitimate issue. Mark Towill frames the situation well: it is the goal for a racing boat to have the best crew possible? I think the answer is "yes" . But a further question is: can this be done with requirements such as "under 30", "female" "national origin." Looking sole at the latest edition of the VOR that finished yesterday, the answer is an obvious "yes": DFRT had 2 female sailors; sailors under 30 (incl males Jack Boutrell; and I believe Horace, Wolf, Black); and, in Towill's example,  crew members of "national origin"arguably mandated by sponsor (same three men, although only 2 of th 3 actually sailed in the race and one sailed all but 2 of the legs, due apparently to injury of the other sailor although he did sail in Leg 10 but not 11). I am assuming Charles Caudrelier had insisted on having final say on crew composition in both editions (before and including the female crew requirements) and would not have included a Chinese sailor who in his opinion was not capable of the tasks. All 3 of the top finishing boats in this edition of the VOR had 2 female sailors and sailors under 30. Thus, these "requirements" did not hinder the teams' effectiveness. 

The America's Cup, and a possibly redesigned boat for the VOR with a smaller crew, do present crew composition challenges if the Race Sponsors and Boat Owners eel committed to continued diversity. "under 30" would not seem to be a problem. And while all women sailors may not have the strength of their male counterparts, they certainly have and showed agility and intelligence, whether they were trimming (Carolijn seemed to be a very important component of df's sail trim, for example); Liz Wardley is the female version of Kevin Escoffier, capable of a multitude of boat repairs, bow work, scrambling up and down the mast for repairs and trimming; and she drives as well.  Abbe Ehler and Dee Caffari have shown to be expert in many areas, respectively,  as has Francesca and Annemieke, just to name a few.  Some experienced sailors have stated that there are jobs onboard racing boats that women can do as well as or better than men, driving and trimming being two. 

Regarding the second issue Dee raised and I mentioned above - that female VOR crew members lack future employment offers in sailing after the race - I would hope that after having watched the last couple of legs, this situation would change. Certainly some of the women have stated they would be immediately returning to training for the Olympics, for example (e.g. Martine). Early on in the race a sailing magazine reported that Dee Caffari was pursuing the Vendee Globe.  I have not heard others state any specific plans. Hopefully, at a minimum, some of these women will be hired to do deliveries, or be signed up to crew on the myriad races around the world scheduled to occur in the next couple of years. If that does not occur, then the VOR crew issue will not have been a "disaster" but will not have delivered what it could.

 So, should sailboat races be required to have female crew members? I agree with Chris Nicholson that at least the next edition of the VOR should retain this rule, unfortunately. i hope that some of these same women come back; and that for those who for whatever reason can't or decide this is not the type of sailing they want to do professionally, that there are other qualified women ready and willing to take their place. I also agree that another all-women's crew would be great for the sport. Team SCA was hugely popular.  It has some success in the last edition, but it frankly spent much more time hundreds of miles behind the other boats. I believe it was Sally Barkley who said, in answer to a question from Andy Green, that she believed that all the women who sailed with Team SCA who wanted to be on a crew for a boat in this edition of the VOR did get a position.

That said, I have always believed and continue to believe that the best, most qualified person available and interested should be hired to do a job.  There may be situations or circumstances where other goals or purposes are important to the job sponsors so that while the best, most qualified persons are still desired, those goals or purposes are equally as important, hence the use of the Rule for this edition of the VOR.  And it turned out to be a success. 

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Awesome article and photographs! Women in the VOR are there to stay. I still dream of a very competitive all female team that would compete for the podium. Perhaps next edition, so much talent has matured (like Emily below) and in combination with veterans like Abby, Dee, Liz t name a few could perhaps do it. 

 

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If it's on IMOCAs it may well be easier for women to be competitive as the boats are lighter and thus loads are more manageable.

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At the post race presser's conference, the skippers were given the opportunity to respond to the question , set up by Dee and Witty ( who stated that he had women in his crews on maxis) whether, if there was no mixed crew rule, would they hire a woman. The unedited version of this part of the conference is posted by Jack Sparrow in the Gothenberg to the Hague thread at post # 1663. (My summary is at #1664). The response of the skippers was totally silence, with them looking down at their shoes and Dee, well, smiling knowingly it seemed. Disappointed, I am. 

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9 hours ago, despacio avenue said:

At the post race presser's conference, the skippers were given the opportunity to respond to the question , set up by Dee and Witty ( who stated that he had women in his crews on maxis) whether, if there was no mixed crew rule, would they hire a woman. The unedited version of this part of the conference is posted by Jack Sparrow in the Gothenberg to the Hague thread at post # 1663. (My summary is at #1664). The response of the skippers was totally silence, with them looking down at their shoes and Dee, well, smiling knowingly it seemed. Disappointed, I am. 

 

I actually thought their silence was most helpful in setting up the next campaign rules. If they all gave the dishonest PR answer that people wanted, there would be some who would say mission accomplished and we'll be back to 2002. 

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I'm surprised that there is no mention here of Sophie (Mapfre / SCA)... She is not a dinghy sailor or Olympian but has forged a career in sailing offshore for a very long time now. Anyone that knows her or has sailed with her will vouch for her talent being equal to any male sailor, fitness and knowledge wise,  in the rolls she performs. (mainly forward of the rig) . 

 

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33 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

I'm surprised that there is no mention here of Sophie (Mapfre / SCA)... She is not a dinghy sailor or Olympian but has forged a career in sailing offshore for a very long time now. Anyone that knows her or has sailed with her will vouch for her talent being equal to any male sailor, fitness and knowledge wise,  in the rolls she performs. (mainly forward of the rig) . 

 

You mean like rolls in the hay?  Rolls off the boat?  Sorta acrobatic tumbling of some sort on the foredeck?

 

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51 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

You mean like rolls in the hay?  Rolls off the boat?  Sorta acrobatic tumbling of some sort on the foredeck?

 

She would "roll" you up like a ball of snot and flick you away without raising a sweat. And out-sail you 8 days out of 7. Very few sailors of either gender perform her role as well as she has done consistently for years. She is one who can thank Wharro for giving her a start in blue water sailing.

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1 hour ago, PIL66 said:

I'm surprised that there is no mention here of Sophie (Mapfre / SCA)... She is not a dinghy sailor or Olympian but has forged a career in sailing offshore for a very long time now. Anyone that knows her or has sailed with her will vouch for her talent being equal to any male sailor, fitness and knowledge wise,  in the rolls she performs. (mainly forward of the rig) . 

Have you seen the wingspan on Sophie? Well, of course you have, hence the post - it's pretty intimidating.

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2 hours ago, Last Post said:

She would "roll" you up like a ball of snot and flick you away without raising a sweat. And out-sail you 8 days out of 7. Very few sailors of either gender perform her role as well as she has done consistently for years. She is one who can thank Wharro for giving her a start in blue water sailing.

I was just taking the piss out of PIL's grammar ... 

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First time a woman has won the VOR? Who is kidding who?

Charles Caudrelier won this VOR, and the race organizer put positive discrimination in practice which effectively forced him to sail with token women aboard. In such circumstances what self respecting woman would claim to have won anything? Sure there are plenty of great women sailors but they would have got more publicity for themselves with a public boycott of this edition with this rule and no sponsor behind any women's boat.

Lets' get real - It is the skipper (or even the owner!) who is seen by the public as the winner of a fully crewed ocean race; not any individual who happens to be on the boat.

I could name Tracy and Sam as women who really have won something in this event, i.e. each has won a leg, but no woman has yet won the VOR.

And to stay with reality, even if Dee had won something there are voices, mine included, who would have claimed it was down to the guys she had on her crew. (I for one had hoped for better results from that boat because it had Brian T on it and he is a renowned and respected ocean racing skipper with a track record.)

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3 hours ago, staysail said:

First time a woman has won the VOR? Who is kidding who?

Charles Caudrelier won this VOR, and the race organizer put positive discrimination in practice which effectively forced him to sail with token women aboard. In such circumstances what self respecting woman would claim to have won anything? Sure there are plenty of great women sailors but they would have got more publicity for themselves with a public boycott of this edition with this rule and no sponsor behind any women's boat.

Lets' get real - It is the skipper (or even the owner!) who is seen by the public as the winner of a fully crewed ocean race; not any individual who happens to be on the boat.

I could name Tracy and Sam as women who really have won something in this event, i.e. each has won a leg, but no woman has yet won the VOR.

And to stay with reality, even if Dee had won something there are voices, mine included, who would have claimed it was down to the guys she had on her crew. (I for one had hoped for better results from that boat because it had Brian T on it and he is a renowned and respected ocean racing skipper with a track record.)

You can start by showing us that you can sail faster a Nacra 17 or a first class 8 than Marie Riou, then you might be able to call her "a token woman" without passing for a muppet!

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13 hours ago, PIL66 said:

I'm surprised that there is no mention here of Sophie (Mapfre / SCA)... She is not a dinghy sailor or Olympian but has forged a career in sailing offshore for a very long time now. Anyone that knows her or has sailed with her will vouch for her talent being equal to any male sailor, fitness and knowledge wise,  in the rolls she performs. (mainly forward of the rig) . 

 

Can eat a lot of bloke's on the bow I know. Girl is a ledge.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

You can start by showing us that you can sail faster a Nacra 17 or a first class 8 than Marie Riou, then you might be able to call her "a token woman" without passing for a muppet!

I know plenty of women ocean racers who can sail much better that I.

What I am pointing out is this rule has done women no favours. At that press conference there was plenty of opportunity for a skipper to say something good about a woman crew member. No one said anything. not a woman's name mentioned, or did I miss something?

 

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5 hours ago, staysail said:

I could name Tracy and Sam as women who really have won something in this event, i.e. each has won a leg, but no woman has yet won the VOR.

Team wins it including everyone on shore.  A colossal effort by all.  I think what was meant was a woman was part of a winning team for the first time.

54 minutes ago, staysail said:

What I am pointing out is this rule has done women no favours.

Seems like the only way women will ever be able to be accepted will be to win it or podium on their own boat - which I think could happen.

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1 hour ago, staysail said:

 

What I am pointing out is this rule has done women no favours. 

I think your previous comment comes across as almost the opposite of that. However, where the rule has helped is by creating an opportunity for more women to gain experience alongside far more experienced men. Without the rule there would not have been many women in the race, and the opportunity to increase experience would have been missed.

For sure, some of the teams treated their female crew as second class citizens,  but others embraced the rule (even if they did not agree with it).

I also don't understand your argument that Carolijn, Marie or Justine did not win the race. They did, as much as Stu Bannatyne or Pascal Bigatorry did. The difference is that there has not previously been a female crew member, so therefore it is an easy sell to the press for increasing coverage.

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The rule was a success in that it force mixed crews to be part of the race. I wouldn't downplay that fact that the DF women won the race. They participated at a high level, they did the miles and the hard work.  Why do you need to be a captain to be a winner? Moving forward, to me it makes sense to keep the rule in place until such time that the rule is no longer needed i.e. crews are roughly 50/50 male/female even though it's not required for the boats to get extra crew. Reality is that is going to take several (many?) editions to get there. Change is slow, teams will still want the folks who have multiple trips around the planet on their team, on winning/high performing teams at that. In recent races, SCA and one trip with forced mixed crews isn't enough to move the needle. 

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41 minutes ago, Potter said:

I think your previous comment comes across as almost the opposite of that. However, where the rule has helped is by creating an opportunity for more women to gain experience alongside far more experienced men. Without the rule there would not have been many women in the race, and the opportunity to increase experience would have been missed.

For sure, some of the teams treated their female crew as second class citizens,  but others embraced the rule (even if they did not agree with it).

I also don't understand your argument that Carolijn, Marie or Justine did not win the race. They did, as much as Stu Bannatyne or Pascal Bigatorry did. The difference is that there has not previously been a female crew member, so therefore it is an easy sell to the press for increasing coverage.

Serious racing is about trying to win. Not about "gaining experience".

I didn't hear Charles say anything about the women on his boat "winning the race". Certainly didn't name any female as an essential crewmember without whom he would not have won.

Has any skipper named any woman as an outstanding crewmember? Without acknowledgement by name by a skipper why should any of the women be considered for future races? They simply have not been afforded any opportunity to show, and get credit for  prowess and none have been given any public accolade. Looks like a pretty dire outcome for this rule if we are to be honest about it. That is unless you think the VOR is a place for forcing guys to teach women to sail!

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1 hour ago, staysail said:

Serious racing is about trying to win. Not about "gaining experience".

I didn't hear Charles say anything about the women on his boat "winning the race". Certainly didn't name any female as an essential crewmember without whom he would not have won.

Has any skipper named any woman as an outstanding crewmember? Without acknowledgement by name by a skipper why should any of the women be considered for future races? They simply have not been afforded any opportunity to show, and get credit for  prowess and none have been given any public accolade. Looks like a pretty dire outcome for this rule if we are to be honest about it. That is unless you think the VOR is a place for forcing guys to teach women to sail!

I don't think that Charles has singled out any crew member. After winning he said that he had a really good crew and felt that his skippering wasn't always at the level his crew deserved. As a skipper singling out crew members isn't exactly a good idea, it will create rivalry.

I think that it is fair to say that he wouldn't have taken women on board but I think that the rule was a success. Only the most talented women get a ride and eventually there will be a pool of women experienced enough to put together a competitive boat. I also think that if they use IMOCAs next time, it will be easier for women to be competitive, the VOR70 and the VO65 to a lesser extent were boats requiring raw strength whereas IMOCA are relatively easy. If not convinced remember Ellen Mac Arthur who was competitive enough on an IMOCA to win the route du rhum and finish 2nd in the VG. Finally a competitive female crew would be a dream for a sponsor.

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4 hours ago, staysail said:

What I am pointing out is this rule has done women no favours. At that press conference there was plenty of opportunity for a skipper to say something good about a woman crew member. 

 

Good ol' boy white male privilege does women no favors either. 

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Carolijn Brouwer -Dong Feng and Annemieke Bes SHK  guests at tv talkshow Jinek on Dutch tv, so the woman racing VOR is good angle.

Host is a smart female, and a feminist ( in a natural way).

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6 hours ago, staysail said:

I know plenty of women ocean racers who can sail much better that I.

What I am pointing out is this rule has done women no favours. At that press conference there was plenty of opportunity for a skipper to say something good about a woman crew member. No one said anything. not a woman's name mentioned, or did I miss something?

 

You can "point that out" to yourself.  You'd be wrong, but you can still "point that out" to yourself. 

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Staysail it’s not about any individual on the boats it’s about the team, and that’s why I’m sure all of the skippers would be reluctant to single ANY individual out for praise man or woman. Like it or not the entire crew of DF just won the vor and that includes the woman. To think anything else is just plain ridiculous and your sexism is showing. 

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1 hour ago, Beast Mode Killa said:

Staysail it’s not about any individual on the boats it’s about the team, and that’s why I’m sure all of the skippers would be reluctant to single ANY individual out for praise man or woman. Like it or not the entire crew of DF just won the vor and that includes the woman. To think anything else is just plain ridiculous and your sexism is showing. 

You should get on well with R Brisius!

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4 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Good ol' boy white male privilege does women no favors either. 

There it is. Do you and Randumb have a roster for posting about Rich white cunts or do you operate interdependently?  

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8 hours ago, staysail said:

I know plenty of women ocean racers who can sail much better that I.

Probably most 5 years olds can as well. Girls and boys.

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16 hours ago, staysail said:

At that press conference there was plenty of opportunity for a skipper to say something good about a woman crew member. No one said anything. not a woman's name mentioned, or did I miss something?

Yes.... 3.36 Bessie's "toughest human being I've ever met in my life".. 

 

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18 hours ago, staysail said:

Serious racing is about trying to win. Not about "gaining experience".

I didn't hear Charles say anything about the women on his boat "winning the race". Certainly didn't name any female as an essential crewmember without whom he would not have won.

Has any skipper named any woman as an outstanding crewmember? Without acknowledgement by name by a skipper why should any of the women be considered for future races? They simply have not been afforded any opportunity to show, and get credit for  prowess and none have been given any public accolade. Looks like a pretty dire outcome for this rule if we are to be honest about it. That is unless you think the VOR is a place for forcing guys to teach women to sail!

All valid points, but what is the alternative? Should women than just give up and stay on the docks?

The silence in the presser by the leading skippers was extremely painful, and all telling. Little progress has been made if you scrape of the tiny layer of PR coating as it seems.

Change is a long haul thing, so the rule should stay for at least one more race to create some critical mass and hopefully then some of these women will be on the crew list on own merit instead of regulations. It will take a new generation of sailors to get this into their DNA. An all women competitive team, able to win the trophy is a long way  still.... but a girl can dream! 

Edit: just asked my solider and he said that because it is very much a man’s sport to watch, as a guy you would want to relate/identify to/with the guys doing the badass stuff and it is just (much) easier if that are cool guys instead of cool girls... is same in F1 racing, cycling, golf... and so on. There is some truth in this I think.

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22 hours ago, staysail said:

Serious racing is about trying to win. Not about "gaining experience".

I didn't hear Charles say anything about the women on his boat "winning the race". Certainly didn't name any female as an essential crewmember without whom he would not have won.

Has any skipper named any woman as an outstanding crewmember? Without acknowledgement by name by a skipper why should any of the women be considered for future races? They simply have not been afforded any opportunity to show, and get credit for  prowess and none have been given any public accolade. Looks like a pretty dire outcome for this rule if we are to be honest about it. That is unless you think the VOR is a place for forcing guys to teach women to sail!

Of course the women in the crew on DF didn't win the race for DF; no single crew member, with the possible exception of Pascal on the final leg, did, It was, as Charles has been quick to state repeatedly, a team effort. Obviously, as it has been noted above, what is meant is that for the first time in the race's history, women who were part of a team that crewed the sailing aspects of the boat (as opposed to, in the case of the Mexican entry and winner in an early race, the coat owner's wife who did the cooking on the first leg, then left the boat). In fact,  Charles has previously praised the skills of Carolijn and noted the improved cohesion and functioning of DF's crew with her and Marie onboard.  Xabi has praised Sophie and that when she missed a e.g. due to injury that they would really miss her onboard. Witty has spoken highly of Annemieke and Libby's skills. And there were others. I did not at all take them as patronizing comments. 

For me, the silence at the post-Leg 11 presser interview was, as Elisa said above, painful to watch (see my post #7 above). However, Miffy (post 8 above) makes a good point that casts a slightly more positive view of that silence. 

I would like to think that skippers and boat owners involved in offshore sailing and offshore racing would have followed this race and even what these women were able to do. Then, he or she would call Charles, or Xabi, or Bouwe, etc. and ask, as they would for a prospective male candidate for their crews, how they performed as a crew member in their given tasks. 

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4 hours ago, Elisa said:

All valid points, but what is the alternative? Should women than just give up and stay on the docks?

Edit: just asked my solider and he said that because it is very much a man’s sport to watch, as a guy you would want to relate/identify to/with the guys doing the badass stuff and it is just (much) easier if that are cool guys instead of cool girls... is same in F1 racing, cycling, golf... and so on. There is some truth in this I think.

No don't stay on the docks!

No surprise to me that most of the voices praising the positive discrimination rule are those of men! You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see this rule is actually bad for women in top level sailing.

The fact is that women sailors and particularly women skippers and women-only boats are a small minority and that is due to male dominance of the sport and nothing to do with ability and not so much to do with out and out strength. Sure a high level of fitness is needed just as in most sports but the idea that you need to have the strength of a 15 stone weightlifter is just a myth which the male sailors promote hoping to keep women out. (wait for Clean to jump in here!)

The big obstacle to women in sailing is simple and obvious, Men!. ...and most men in ocean racing seem to want to keep women out or at best, keep them in the "second class" positions!  They want the limelight for themselves.

So the answer is equally obvious. Women have to compete and they need to keep men out of their projects or at least keep them out of the front line decision making.

Women need to get themselves in charge of projects.

One thing is also blindingly obvious. If there is an all-woman boat competing on a level playing field with men or mixed crews, that boat will attract the biggest following and will get the most attention from the press. Race organizers love "all woman" boats. There was no woman in the last VG and the organizers were far from happy about that. SCA attracted by far the greatest attention in the last VOR. The biggest handicap for SCA in the last VOR was the fact that the project was managed by, you've guessed it, men. The guy in charge (RB) even tried his level best not to allow a woman skipper to be named!

So the answer is that women have much more leverage in this sport that they realise. Sponsors know that a woman's boat will get the lions share of the attention. What I would like to see is one of the young SCA crew like Sophie perhaps, get together with other Magenta project girls, and get a project going with sponsor who is a woman owned/managed company. It might mean knocking on a lot of doors but she has a great product to sell. Sam and the SCA girls proved, once they had escaped from their so called managers and trainers, and had taught themselves how to sail the boat, that they could win a VOR leg. Now there are a few more girls around who have a bit more experience why can't they win the event?

If women keep listening to the men who are actually involved in this sport one thing is for sure, the men will keep them down.

(...and your soldier is wrong. Thousands of women followed SCA. Hardly any women bothered to follow this last VOR. Women will only get interested in following when there are some women truly in charge of some racing.)

One question. Why did Dee not select an all-woman crew? If a woman skipper selects men that does not do much for the cause of women in the VOR. Was she free to select all her crew? Who managed the project? A woman or a bloke?

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You hit a lot of nails on the head there Staysail.

I agree, you say girls don’t wait, but take charge. We would need another SCA type sponsor. Problem is lots of these big sponsors are predominantly run by men as well. They too will tend to hire men primarily. So it is easier said than done. A long haul thing. A women only crew that can compete would be awesome. Could be a lot of old SCA crew that now have a lot more miles under their belt. Dee skippering perhaps, only if she lets go of the ‘schooltrip’ vibe she has going on. We’ll see and I’m sure this will be discussed lots upcoming years. :)

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There is a huge issue of translating women further into sailing. How many college women sailors sail after college? A lot of the girls in the US who are on Division 1 sailing teams stop after college. They hardly seem to transfer to big boat sailing. This is where the supply chain breaks down. However, to say it is simply caused by Men as staysail says up above is beyond ridiculous.  Some genders naturally like different things. Girls don't always enjoy the same things as boys do.  This is from jobs, to sports, to other things in life.  There is always a natural separation regardless and sometimes our society is trying to force more of a commingling these days and that word of inclusion

Strength differential between males and females is only a known issue for about 1000s of years, and will always need to be a part of the discussion.  This is not saying females should not be on the boat in any means. It is just something that occurs naturally in life for most.  Yes, there are females that are stronger than males, so lets get that thought out of the way. However, I know some great female sailors who have to change positions when the breeze is up simply because they cannot handle a take down in 30 kts, or trimming spinnaker as the breeze comes up without a grind on the winch like some of the guys can.  It was a issue in the last go around regardless of having the all female boat. They did fall off some weather systems simply due to fatigue and they certainly said they reduced risk in breezier conditions for safety factors.  

If money was no object, and there were enough female sailors capable,  I would love to see three difference races in the same around the world race. 1. Open class which can have any crew set up they wish.  2.  Mixed crew class. 3. All women's class. I would love to see 5 boats in each class going around the world at the same time.  

Life is about opportunity and luck. We need to as a society fix the opportunity side of things. However, luck is something we cannot change. For example, while Martine Grael is a phenomenal sailor and well deserving, without her father's love for the sport, she may have never been a sailor so we insert opportunity/luck to have a father like hers.  This is just one example in regards to this, but you can look at anything in life the same way.  Brittany and Ashley Force in NHRA, their father was a racer, so they became racers, etc.  They had the luck of having someone in the family who had the love as well and had the opportunity to do things others could not.  Where we can change opportunity is bringing those on board who have never sailed, and changing their lives.  However, you still have to have an interest, and if there is no interest in sailing, that is something no one can change. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Elisa said:

You hit a lot of nails on the head there Staysail.

I agree, you say girls don’t wait, but take charge. We would need another SCA type sponsor. Problem is lots of these big sponsors are predominantly run by men as well. They too will tend to hire men primarily. So it is easier said than done. A long haul thing. A women only crew that can compete would be awesome. Could be a lot of old SCA crew that now have a lot more miles under their belt. Dee skippering perhaps, only if she lets go of the ‘schooltrip’ vibe she has going on. We’ll see and I’m sure this will be discussed lots upcoming years. :)

Thanks Elisa. Agree it will not be easy, but possible I think.

I have never seen Dee as a real racing skipper though, (check her racing CV) and I think younger blood and a fresher image is needed. That's why I suggested Sophie. She has the kind of image which I think many companies would like to be associated with. I wonder if she knows how strong her following is? Does she have the ambition?

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19 minutes ago, trimfast said:

There is a huge issue of translating women further into sailing.   etc. etc. etc. etc.

 

Trimfast (!)
Sounds like you don't understand there might be a big difference between ocean racing in the US and what goes on in Europe and in particular, France. Over here women get into sailing through determination, guts, and not so much depending on Daddy, luck, or "college". And if you are a normal sized woman, yes you can single handedly reef an Imoca 60 in 45 kts of breeze, and do all the other sail handling in that sort of weather, and the stacking, and you don't ask a big bloke to help, because you are the only one on the boat! Men dominate here as elsewhere but they don't have a monopoly. The girls that have come up through sailing Oppies, Toppers, crewed racing, Min Transat, Solitaire de Figaro etc. make their own opportunities and don't depend on luck.
The good ones don't think about "inclusion", positive discrimination, etc. They simply love sailing and ocean racing and they want to win. Pity for you if you don't have women like that in the US.

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On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 3:31 PM, staysail said:

First time a woman has won the VOR? Who is kidding who?

Charles Caudrelier won this VOR, and the race organizer put positive discrimination in practice which effectively forced him to sail with token women aboard. In such circumstances what self respecting woman would claim to have won anything? Sure there are plenty of great women sailors but they would have got more publicity for themselves with a public boycott of this edition with this rule and no sponsor behind any women's boat.

Lets' get real - It is the skipper (or even the owner!) who is seen by the public as the winner of a fully crewed ocean race; not any individual who happens to be on the boat.

I could name Tracy and Sam as women who really have won something in this event, i.e. each has won a leg, but no woman has yet won the VOR.

And to stay with reality, even if Dee had won something there are voices, mine included, who would have claimed it was down to the guys she had on her crew. (I for one had hoped for better results from that boat because it had Brian T on it and he is a renowned and respected ocean racing skipper with a track record.)

Wake up Staysail. This was not a single handed race. Charles was indeed the skipper but he would be the first to acknowledge the role of everyone on board plus the shore crew, the preparateurs, the logistics, the whole darn team. You are way out of touch. Every single member of the team contributed to the victory, that I can assure you.

Certainly the skipper's name goes on the trophy but it would not be there without everyone else

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1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

Certainly the skipper's name goes on the trophy

Yes, Charles won the race. The Skipper, after all is said and done, is the one responsible for the boat and all the crew.

You entirely miss the point about the effect of the positive discrimination rule. Seems all the men in this forum also miss the point. But they would, wouldn't they?

 

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On 6/27/2018 at 3:50 PM, staysail said:

Serious racing is about trying to win. Not about "gaining experience".

I didn't hear Charles say anything about the women on his boat "winning the race". Certainly didn't name any female as an essential crewmember without whom he would not have won.

Has any skipper named any woman as an outstanding crewmember? Without acknowledgement by name by a skipper why should any of the women be considered for future races? They simply have not been afforded any opportunity to show, and get credit for  prowess and none have been given any public accolade. Looks like a pretty dire outcome for this rule if we are to be honest about it. That is unless you think the VOR is a place for forcing guys to teach women to sail!

So how does anybody gain experience then? Everyone gains experience from life and what they do, even the guys like Stu Bannantyne and Nico with the last ocean legs. 

You beating a drum that broke a long time ago and making yourself look like a dick.... again!

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9 hours ago, Elisa said:

All valid points, but what is the alternative? Should women than just give up and stay on the docks?

The silence in the presser by the leading skippers was extremely painful, and all telling. Little progress has been made if you scrape of the tiny layer of PR coating as it seems.

Change is a long haul thing, so the rule should stay for at least one more race to create some critical mass and hopefully then some of these women will be on the crew list on own merit instead of regulations. It will take a new generation of sailors to get this into their DNA. An all women competitive team, able to win the trophy is a long way  still.... but a girl can dream! 

Edit: just asked my solider and he said that because it is very much a man’s sport to watch, as a guy you would want to relate/identify to/with the guys doing the badass stuff and it is just (much) easier if that are cool guys instead of cool girls... is same in F1 racing, cycling, golf... and so on. There is some truth in this I think.

That last bit is bullshit in my book, if you can’t relate because it’s a woman, there’s something rather myopic going on. Just watch the sport and appreciate it  

Flame away. 

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Trimfast, Mad, SS, Jack, ... all so predictable.

Disagree? Have a different opinion? Normal reactions, rudeness, mildly foul language, pathetic attempts at humour. On form all of you!

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Like the U-30 rule, this edition has worked to build the next generation of sailors. The gender question as far as sailors are concerned is a distraction. Quite a few more people got a chance to get 30 years of Sidney-Hobart experience in one year and change. 

Rule is working.

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31 minutes ago, mad said:

That last bit is bullshit in my book, if you can’t relate because it’s a woman, there’s something rather myopic going on. Just watch the sport and appreciate it  

Flame away. 

No flaming Mad :), but whys it then in so many sports the female equivalent doesn’t get half as much attention as their male counterpart? Sponsors, tv rights etc they just don’t buy into it. Female soccer, cycle tours, etc are exciting to watch but they don’t get prime time and payment..why? I honestly don’t know, part could be that men still rather watch cool guys instead of cool girls. You might be one of the rare positive exceptions to that rule Mad, :).

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12 minutes ago, staysail said:

Trimfast, Mad, SS, Jack, ... all so predictable.

Disagree? Have a different opinion? Normal reactions, rudeness, mildly foul language, pathetic attempts at humour. On form all of you!

Easy staysail. You monopolized the question last edition; random posters jumped in to repeat the same old discussions/ troll-wars this time in the 69 thread, so no need to repeat old points. 

FWIW, one new example is that the Sophie-Nèti strength-injury-bow situation in Legs 2 and 3 put the strength argument to rest. Position for position, Sophie won her place.

New points would be to follow how many of the ocean virgins look back on this edition as a the big break in their carers as pro sailors. Chris N learned that Martine was a better heavy-weather driver than he expected. So much for the 'delicate' touch discussion :D

 

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7 minutes ago, stief said:

Like the U-30 rule, this edition has worked to build the next generation of sailors. The gender question as far as sailors are concerned is a distraction. Quite a few more people got a chance to get 30 years of Sidney-Hobart experience in one year and change. 

Rule is working.

Question is should they keep rule in place?, or would the (current) skippers hire these trained women on their own merits as accomplished sailors and not as a result of the rules?... To be honest, I’m pessimistic, loose the rule, loose these women I think... and that is less progress than lots of us hoped for.

Enough, otherwise I might turn into an old sour grape..^_^

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12 minutes ago, Elisa said:

Question is should they keep rule in place?, or would the (current) skippers hire these trained women on their own merits as accomplished sailors and not as a result of the rules?... To be honest, I’m pessimistic, loose the rule, loose these women I think... and that is less progress than lots of us hoped for.

Enough, otherwise I might turn into an old sour grape..^_^

Lots of reason to be pessimistic, but I keep remembering sailing here has been mixed as long as I can remember. Female commodores back in the 80's (and since), mixed dinghy crews (older husband-wife teams back in the sixties and since), young couples who went on to mixed national competitions, young couples who have taken over their parents cruisers or bought cruisers, and so on.

Honestly, sailing is on e of those sports where athleticism counts less than sailing smart, which easily outweighs gender-specific physical attributes.

So, at a grass roots level here, gender is not a factor. I do have to say, though, sailing with a hot honey sure held and holds far more appeal than sailing with guys.

 

Gotta add: this VOR edition has been mostly followed at our club by the women. And those are the women that did not want to race with other women in the several times we tried to get all the women in one boat for fun racing. That got no traction after a few attempts. They were far more interested in sailing mixed crews, and following mixed crews in the VOR. 

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18 minutes ago, stief said:

Easy staysail. You monopolized the question last edition; random posters jumped in to repeat the same old discussions/ troll-wars this time in the 69 thread, so no need to repeat old points. 

FWIW, one new example is that the Sophie-Nèti strength-injury-bow situation in Legs 2 and 3 put the strength argument to rest. Position for position, Sophie won her place.

New points would be to follow how many of the ocean virgins look back on this edition as a the big break in their carers as pro sailors. Chris N learned that Martine was a better heavy-weather driver than he expected. So much for the 'delicate' touch discussion :D

 

Come on Steif, this is just the good ole boys trying to shut down a discussion. They see themselves as "better than women". I very much doubt it!

Just so long as folk like "Trimfast" write things like "I know some great female sailors who have to change positions when the breeze is up simply because they cannot handle a take down in 30 kts", I shall feel free to write that he is uttering complete garbage and "great female sailors do not need help from men!"

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28 minutes ago, staysail said:

Come on Steif, this is just the good ole boys trying to shut down a discussion. They see themselves as "better than women". I very much doubt it!

Just so long as folk like "Trimfast" write things like "I know some great female sailors who have to change positions when the breeze is up simply because they cannot handle a take down in 30 kts", I shall feel free to write that he is uttering complete garbage and "great female sailors do not need help from men!"

I noticed Trimfast's post a while back, and had meant to link to your SCA thread when posting the NYT tweet (to save the Leg thread), so apologies. Too much else of much more interest. Wish you would have posted the link . . . enough people recall that thread.

btw, you missed out this edition. All the old issues so much better developed this time around. I couldn't keep up, and missed out on so many other races/campaigns this year. It's been great--and I'm still catching up on the last Leg ;) 

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1 hour ago, Elisa said:

No flaming Mad :), but whys it then in so many sports the female equivalent doesn’t get half as much attention as their male counterpart? Sponsors, tv rights etc they just don’t buy into it. Female soccer, cycle tours, etc are exciting to watch but they don’t get prime time and payment..why? I honestly don’t know, part could be that men still rather watch cool guys instead of cool girls. You might be one of the rare positive exceptions to that rule Mad, :).

It is maybe because not enough woman watch sports or (more important) are buying sports goods. It is not about hte quality of the players, in Olympics there is no difference in numbers for a male or a female over here. I think Dafne Schippers was the most watched one.
 

 

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1 hour ago, staysail said:

....this is just the good ole boys trying to shut down a discussion. They see themselves as "better than women".

Mate you fail to grasp the simple fact that sport is competition involving participants who want to be the best and for those that follow it, want to observe the best or best in class. 

That is why at Wimbledon the Ladies Finals are on the last Saturday and the Men's on Sunday along with Mixed Doubles. I can't imagine any tennis follower male or female would have that program any other way.

Does that program mean more people follow the men's final than the women, not necessarily. Does it mean Venus Williams could beat Rafael Nadal, no. Would anyone be interested watching her continually try to do so, no. Does it mean Venus Williams could beat a unranked male player, probably yes. Would anyone be interested watching her do it, no.

Sport has its own language and nuances to accommodate different tastes in how competition is viewed by different people. For instance "underdog" to some is simply a competitor not favoured to win, yet may even be more popular than a favourite. For others "underdog" is a polite term describing a competitor who fails to improve and should bugger off and make room for someone else.

If you want to change the evolution of  the species and how competiton is treated you are a bit late.

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The professional women tennis players are not entirely happy with the sport, mainly because they get paid far less than the men! Also with tennis tall people with a long reach have a basic fundamental advantage, and men tend to be taller than women, so by and large the game is actually easier for men than for women, or maybe that had not occurred to you? There is no equivalent fundamental disadvantage for women in ocean racing. That is why they can compete on equal terms.

But what tennis has to do with positive discrimination in professional sailing and the question "will it do any good/has it done any good, for women in this sport?" completely escapes me.

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18 minutes ago, staysail said:

The professional women tennis players are not entirely happy with the sport, mainly because they get paid far less than the men! 

And that would be because women's tennis pulls a much smaller audience and because as Pat Rafter (a short Australian who won Wimbledon (: ) described it - it is 40 minutes of rubbish. 

As for sailing I would rather see the sport encourage more young people into the sport than women. I hope you saw what I did there...

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24 minutes ago, staysail said:

The professional women tennis players are not entirely happy with the sport, mainly because they get paid far less than the men! Also with tennis tall people with a long reach have a basic fundamental advantage, and men tend to be taller than women, so by and large the game is actually easier for men than for women, or maybe that had not occurred to you? There is no equivalent fundamental disadvantage for women in ocean racing. That is why they can compete on equal terms.

But what tennis has to do with positive discrimination in professional sailing and the question "will it do any good/has it done any good, for women in this sport?" completely escapes me.

Is that why you just posted 100 words about it? I don't know what you hope to achieve with this great defence of women. It won't help you pull a root. Chicks only like Nancy- boy, in touch with there feeling types in women's Magazines. In the real world they think guys like you suck. Other men like yourself mostly.

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3 hours ago, Elisa said:

but whys it then in so many sports the female equivalent doesn’t get half as much attention as their male counterpart?

Because, Elisa there are many more lard-arse useless guys taking up space on couches all over the world. (I speak from a little bit of personal experience here ;)) They've gotta watch something, right? Which kinda supports your man's comment about what he prefers to watch. I can relate.

 

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the road less traveled

aly-bow-1.jpg

Those who have seen me on the front page before probably know a bit of my story—that I left racing just before high school, only to come back a few years ago and start an unlikely odyssey of big regattas, fast boats and many, many miles of travel. As a competitive, perfectionist, type-A personality, I wanted to hit the top of the game from the day I came back to it, and I found myself lusting after the foredeck on a TP52, maybe even in the Super Series some day. Improbable as it may be, I started working for it.

The road has been far more circuitous than planned—I have been welcomed and supported by many of the crews I’ve sailed for, and yet as I began to land bow spots on some of the biggest boats, I was also occasionally met with derision and weird, spiteful behavior (we can say it doesn’t happen, but factually, some people just don’t want females aboard, no less in a key role). These negative experiences felt like deep setbacks, but along the way, I have also met some of the most wonderful owners and crew mates one could hope for. They’ve believed in me, one became a tremendous mentor, and they’ve taken me to national and world championships, pushed my limits and expanded my horizons.

I met many of those great people last month at J/70 North Americans, among them Eduardo Porter Ludwig (aka “Goldo”), owner of a TP52 named Patches. Patches sails from Acapulco in a lively, if little known, fleet of TP52s, Farr 40s and other noteworthy one-offs. This past weekend, Goldo gifted me a big step forward toward my sailing dream, by putting me on the bow of his TP52 (finally!).

The experience was just as rich as I imagined it would be. The boats themselves are gorgeous, and the bow is intensely physical, fast-paced, wet and salty. The crew aboard Patches is talented, cooperative, and welcoming—they worked flawlessly with me in both Spanish and English, and the mechanics of every set, douse and gybe were second nature. Calling the start was pure Hollywood, as we lined up a good quarter-length out on the other TP’s but still just inside the line at the gun in race two. Acapulco itself provides a stellar arena for racing, with a tropical backdrop, ocean swells and a variety of conditions from big breeze at the start of day one to challenging light air for the navigator course on day two. We came away with a picket fence of firsts for the weekend, and I couldn’t be happier.

This is a special thank you to Goldo, his bowman Javier “Pelitos” Mollo, and the whole crew of Patches for giving me a shot. It’s the people who take a chance on a potentially unlikely talent that open the sport for growth and progress, especially at the top levels where some of us find many closed doors. Top photo thanks to Alex Salgado.

More to follow, as I will be back to race on the 52 again soon! – Aly Di Nas.

http://sailinganarchy.com/2018/06/28/the-road-less-traveled/

 

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4 hours ago, staysail said:

Also with tennis tall people with a long reach have a basic fundamental advantage, and men tend to be taller than women, so by and large the game is actually easier for men than for women, or maybe that had not occurred to you? There is no equivalent fundamental disadvantage for women in ocean racing. That is why they can compete on equal terms.

Which is why they have seperate tennis events for men and women. It may come as a surprise but physical attributes determine selection in team platforms like RTW Race Boats for both men and women. Some participants develop a skill set to offset any physical disadvantage. Some develop a skill set that capitalises on a physical advantage.

Evidence of that abounds for both men and women. Go look at the physical difference of say Boat Captains and Navigators compared to those who work forward of the mast. The problem with 65' relatively short crewed RTW Race boats is there is not a lot of room for too many specialists, giving those with a wider skillset capability and or not encumbered with a physical disadvantage, a leg up at selection time. 

However you are saying there is no such physical differential, everyone can be treated equally and if that is not occuring it must be gender discrimination. I think your wrong about that.

If the desire is for more "physicality and gender" equality then only a rule incentive is going to overcome the laws of the jungle when selection time comes around. It appears the current approach provides a pretty good nursery for future talent of all pursuasions and which ordinarily wouldn't exist.

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Even whilst pretending to encourage women, the common theme you guys all have is that on balance for VOR style racing, they are not as good as men. Same guys however all seem agreed that the 65 one design led to the closest ever racing. How can it be possible therefore for an all-women crew, at least half of them with minimal ocean racing experience prior to that VOR, to win a leg in the first VOR sailed by an all woman crew? I am sure you will all have a good explanation for that. Couldn't possibly be that women are perfectly capable of competing with men at this sport.

It is not physicality holding them back; it is men. Law of the jungle?, when it comes to selection, otherwise known as a stacked deck!

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@staysail in your opinion the all female team is the only way forward.  However, it was the leading Sailors from Team SCA that were asking for the current rule.  They don't want to sail in an all female team that has reduced experience levels. If they are good enough, they want to sail with their male counterparts, and gain from their experience. However, those men will not naturally choose to sail with women.

Carolijn and Abby are probably the two best examples of women with good skills who would not have been on this race without the rule, but absolutely deserve to have been.

 

As for Dee and her crew selection. She was not given the choice to have am all female team when she was offered the job. However, she would have chosen a mixed team anyway, as this is how she does most of her sailing. The majority youth equation was also part of the deal.

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1 hour ago, Potter said:

@staysail in your opinion the all female team is the only way forward.  However, it was the leading Sailors from Team SCA that were asking for the current rule.  They don't want to sail in an all female team that has reduced experience levels. If they are good enough, they want to sail with their male counterparts, and gain from their experience. However, those men will not naturally choose to sail with women.

Carolijn and Abby are probably the two best examples of women with good skills who would not have been on this race without the rule, but absolutely deserve to have been.

 

As for Dee and her crew selection. She was not given the choice to have am all female team when she was offered the job. However, she would have chosen a mixed team anyway, as this is how she does most of her sailing. The majority youth equation was also part of the deal.

I didn't see any of the SCA sailors lamenting the absence of men on the boat when it arrived in first place, way ahead of all the other boats, in Lorient!


So presumably it was a guy who was behind the T Top project?

So long as the women in sailing accept to be managed by men, sail with them, and not compete against them, what can they expect? They will always play second fiddle.

The single biggest personality in women's ocean racing sailing is still Tracy Edwards. She ran her own projects, and lots of top level women ocean racing sailors cut their teeth with her and due to her ambition. Women need another Tracy to step up to the plate and open up the opportunities just like Tracy did.

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56 minutes ago, staysail said:

I didn't see any of the SCA sailors lamenting the absence of men on the boat when it arrived in first place, way ahead of all the other boats, in Lorient!

So long as the women in sailing accept to be managed by men, sail with them, and not compete against them, what can they expect? They will always play second fiddle.

The single biggest personality in women's ocean racing sailing is still Tracy Edwards. She ran her own projects, and lots of top level women ocean racing sailors cut their teeth with her and due to her ambition. Women need another Tracy to step up to the plate and open up the opportunities just like Tracy did.

The problem with your hypothesis is the exact same women you mention don't subscribe to your view on "segregation". Without exception the Tracey Edwards, Dawn Rileys and the ones all mentioned by Potter in numerous posts etc, all want sailing to be "mixed" not "segregated". They have clearly discarded "segregation" and moved on.

While you pad your posts with their names, you clearly have little regard for their viewpoint, so I don't know who you are preaching to here, except maybe the mirror?

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9 hours ago, southerncross said:

the road less traveled

Good find SX. Between you and stief nothing gets gathering dust on the library shelf here.

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2 hours ago, staysail said:

I didn't see any of the SCA sailors lamenting the absence of men on the boat when it arrived in first place, way ahead of all the other boats, in Lorient!


So presumably it was a guy who was behind the T Top project?

So long as the women in sailing accept to be managed by men, sail with them, and not compete against them, what can they expect? They will always play second fiddle.

The single biggest personality in women's ocean racing sailing is still Tracy Edwards. She ran her own projects, and lots of top level women ocean racing sailors cut their teeth with her and due to her ambition. Women need another Tracy to step up to the plate and open up the opportunities just like Tracy did.

Did you even read what I had written? Or did you just pick the bits you could use to support your own hypothesis? 

She would have chosen to go mixed crew anyway.

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15 hours ago, Elisa said:

No flaming Mad :), but whys it then in so many sports the female equivalent doesn’t get half as much attention as their male counterpart? Sponsors, tv rights etc they just don’t buy into it. Female soccer, cycle tours, etc are exciting to watch but they don’t get prime time and payment..why? I honestly don’t know, part could be that men still rather watch cool guys instead of cool girls. You might be one of the rare positive exceptions to that rule Mad, :).

Thanks Elisa, I'll take that as a compliment.;)

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4 hours ago, Potter said:

@staysail in your opinion the all female team is the only way forward.  However, it was the leading Sailors from Team SCA that were asking for the current rule.  They don't want to sail in an all female team that has reduced experience levels. If they are good enough, they want to sail with their male counterparts, and gain from their experience. However, those men will not naturally choose to sail with women.

Carolijn and Abby are probably the two best examples of women with good skills who would not have been on this race without the rule, but absolutely deserve to have been.

 

As for Dee and her crew selection. She was not given the choice to have am all female team when she was offered the job. However, she would have chosen a mixed team anyway, as this is how she does most of her sailing. The majority youth equation was also part of the deal.

Thanks, Potter for answering the questions I was about to ask...

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The problem is a grassroots one. There are plenty of keen women sailors. It is a lot better now than back in the 70s and 80s, but down at club racing level, male boat owners would rather have a strong male novice than a highly competent female sailor. For a woman sailor to get a ride, she must be a wife/girlfriend/daughter of the owner and he makes the rule that she is included. 

There are now classes where class rules insist on at least 1 woman on board.

There are a lot more exceptions these days, but it is still extremely difficult for women to get on a boat. The solution: buy your own boat. As more women get into high paying jobs, more are able to follow this route.

By not having the opportunity to get onto top racing boats, women sailors need to reinvent the wheel in terms of learning skills and tricks of the trade.

On big boats men are also not strong enough. That is why there are big winches and lots of purchases in systems. Work smarter not harder.

I don’t think women will be given opportunities without rules.

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So much fail.  Thankfully isolated to one lonely poster. 

The experience factor can not be overstated. As a guy who is in the market for DH crew to go offshore,  I to situations where I know that occasionally my life is going to be in my crew's hands, I am always going to want to find the best. And yet, that is not always a simple task. 

There are lots of sailors who can steer, or can trim, or can call the side of the course, or fix broken things, or can function offshore as well as they do onshore, or whom I can get along with.  There are a very tiny number who are able to cover all if that partial list. 

It means that when I am picking team mates, I often go with a known quantity, but the reality is that since it is such a small pool of talent, those known quantities are in high demand. So it is a necessity to figure out how to trial and test and develop new talent. 

Most sailors new to this style of sailing, no matter what their prior experience, find themselves back on a steep learning curve and the only way to get up that curve is to have time and make a commitment.  And even with that experience many don't have the alchemy.

Frankly, this idea of helping develop talent in this corner of the sport is a fairly new one to me. I have been fully on board and help where I can with the idea of getting people engaged with the sport as a general matter, but guess I felt that an organic process of self development would result in talent filtering its way into the specific corner I sail in.  I suppose I was unconciously engaged in it in the past, but it's only been more recently that I have seen the more direct need to be actively engaged in helping identify and support talent development. 

If I were to limit myself to just men for those opportunities,  I would cut myself off from a substantial talent pool.  So it is to my own selfish purpose that I look broadly. 

I have no idea if or when a female skipper or a female team will win the Volvo.  So many variables go into victory that the perceived or real relative strengths or weakness of a female crew is just part of the puzzle. But what I do know is that we will never find out without active and proactive development of the talent. 

 

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“I was also occasionally met with derision and weird, spiteful behavior (we can say it doesn’t happen, but factually, some people just don’t want females aboard, no less in a key role).”

From the post above.  This seems to be at the root of it.  Old boy’s club?  Pure misogyny?  Lust?  Ignorance?

I’m curious.  I’d like to hear from a crew that is against having a woman onboard.  Even an anonymous post would do.

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1 hour ago, Sapphire Girl said:

I don’t think women will be given opportunities without rules.

You are dead right. If just the 'jungle rule" in any competition applies then there will not be "mixed crews," which women, people of inexperience etc clearly aspire to as opposed to seeking a "segregated" outcome as Staysail does.

The only person on this thread who doesn't understand that simple human asperational formula is Staysail. Why not, I wouldn't have a fuckin clue? 

Does it come easy at the flick of a pen? No it doesn't like most things in life that are important and require a bit of a struggle.

It is as obvious as mud on your face and one great legacy of this race.

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Trimfast I noted your downvote (without comment which is rare) so it seams like Staysail you are in the "segregation" camp. My apologies as I did post thinking he was the odd man out in that regard.

Anyway you said this upthread indicating a bit of a mish mash.. Would be great if you could explain your reasoning behind that approach.

23 hours ago, trimfast said:

If money was no object, and there were enough female sailors capable,  I would love to see three difference races in the same around the world race. 1. Open class which can have any crew set up they wish.  2.  Mixed crew class. 3. All women's class. I would love to see 5 boats in each class going around the world at the same time.  

Sort of reminds me about tennis..men and singles women..doubles men, women and mixed and then who actually remembers who entered and who won what.

I'm sure you have a strategy, just not sure what it is, putting aside there is no sign contestants and sponsors support such a grandiose approach now or in the future. Bit like running before one walks.

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On 6/27/2018 at 5:35 PM, LB 15 said:

There it is. Do you and Randumb have a roster for posting about Rich white cunts or do you operate interdependently?  

You are a cowardly misogynistic punk - typical of far too many Ozzies. 

Do they teach you that trash in mate school? 

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Trimfast I noted your downvote (without comment which is rare) so it seams like Staysail you are in the "segregation" camp. My apologies as I did post thinking he was the odd man out in that regard.

Anyway you said this upthread indicating a bit of a mish mash.. Would be great if you could explain your reasoning behind that approach.

Sort of reminds me about tennis..men and singles women..doubles men, women and mixed and then who actually remembers who entered and who won what.

I'm sure you have a strategy, just not sure what it is, putting aside there is no sign contestants and sponsors support such a grandiose approach now or in the future. Bit like running before one walks.

I wrote a lengthy post before that didn't actually post so that's awesome. But, I meant to like yours and not downvote so I got that wrong.

Basically my post before was about increasing opportunity for sailors to race offshore by having a larger race with three classes with five boats each. I would have them start at the same time so that each class gets the same conditions and opportunities. I would have an overall trophy, and then each class trophy.

1.  Open class, whatever crew you want to bring which you feel like gives you the best chances no restrictions other than number of crew.

2. Mixed crew boat consisting of the U30, mixed male/female rules, 1 amateur (defined below). 

3. All women's crew.

Reasons,

1. Using the class rules of the V65 currently, crew for an all male boat is 7. Mixed crew is 7+1. All female can have 11.  Minimum amount of racers for 15 boats would be 130 participants in the same race.  I think that would be awesome. More faces than the known ones in the sport.

2. Having an all female class brings in 55 female sailors the class alone. Women's world cup of soccer, but for sailing. Maybe this will influence some girl to be the next Mia Hamm, etc.

3. You could sill have comparisons between the three fleets, but in reality, a class win is the focus, with overall being an added kicker for any of the three fleets. 

4. Amateur on mixed crew boat.  I would like to see each team develop one sailor.  They likely would have high functioning novice sailors from around the world fill out applications and interests. They would then find a select group of sailors to develop into the pick. It would need to be this persons first lap of the planet, non America's Cup sailor, Non full professional sailor up until the race itself where after they would be deemed professional.  Amateur could be U30.

The quote itself about money and capabilities. We all know in this economic climate, its hard enough to get 8 teams yet alone 15. So that is why I said if money was no option. However, if you change it to three classes, you might be able to find different sponsors for the class itself, then sponsors for the teams as well. Probably just a dream, but who are we without them.

As for enough female sailors capable, I do not know if there are 55 female sailors which could/would do this type of race. I am not saying there isn't, I am just not well versed around the world enough to actually know how many exist.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, trimfast said:

But, I meant to like yours and not downvote so I got that wrong.

You can go back and change it. Has happened to a number of posters in the past (usually when on a phone, I have to double check the resulting 'reaction').

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With the IMOCA it will be difficult to impose selection rules. If you mandate at least one woman and one under 30, you've got already almost half of the crew. 

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12 hours ago, Potter said:

@staysail in your opinion the all female team is the only way forward.  However, it was the leading Sailors from Team SCA that were asking for the current rule.  They don't want to sail in an all female team that has reduced experience levels. If they are good enough, they want to sail with their male counterparts, and gain from their experience. However, those men will not naturally choose to sail with women.

 

I was brought up by parents who encouraged their children to pursue what interested them, and to believe that there were no limits on what we could achieve. They did not differentiate between how they raised my sister and I and my brother. We hunted, fished, skied ,swam, played basketball, camped, biked, played ice hockey. We did not have a lot of money but my parents, and then we kids, worked hard to get the education we wanted.  Why very conservative politically and quite religious,  they supported our endeavors through bumps in the road, and some significant detours on my part. 

 When I first started out in my professional career, many decades ago, it was a profession largely comprised of men. That has dramatically  changed over the years in most, but not all, places and companies. I credit the women that came before me, who had to go through some pretty bad and demeaning treatment, unequal pay, lack of promotion, and the like, but who by their hard and good work, helped to pave the way for those of us who came along after.  I was fortunate to not encounter "glass ceilings" and received equal treatment from my colleagues and others in the profession. I was mentored by men because they were the ones who had the experience I needed.  My role model was a woman who had achieved what I wanted who included the respect of my peers, and my then superiors. I never wanted to be labeled as a "woman  [fill in the blank for the profession]" and neither did my colleagues or other professional women.  I did not join professional organizations that were solely comprised of female professionals in my  line or work, though I willingly and eagerly made myself available to mentor young women coming up the ranks. So I relate completely to what Potter has said above regarding all female teams and women choosing to sail on mixed teams.  It is disappointing that the reluctance of male skippers or boat owners to use women in their crew has persisted for so many years. Again, I do hope the Rule is continued in the next edition of the VOR (to be named later, maybe imminently?) and that this edition of the race may have provided some level or encouragement to these men to bring women onto their crews.

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11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

The problem with your hypothesis is the exact same women you mention don't subscribe to your view on "segregation". Without exception the Tracey Edwards, Dawn Rileys and the ones all mentioned by Potter in numerous posts etc, all want sailing to be "mixed" not "segregated". They have clearly discarded "segregation" and moved on.

They are getting old now Jack, no longer have the fire of youth in their bellies. Was a far different story years ago when Tracy actually ran Maiden and Royal and Sun Alliance, if you can remember that far back and can name the girls who sailed with her. I Know less about Dawn, and girls who sailed with her, but I suspect she wasn't that impressed with men when in her heyday? You tell me if I am wrong.

I saw interviews with all sorts of women about this rule, and it was obvious that only one view would actually see the light of day, and these are people who want a job. Obviously they are not going to bite the hand that might feed them!

i sense that women are not entirely convinced this rule has done them much good. On these forums I see one woman who also had her doubts, and loads of men who are all in favour, and think its a wonderful rule. Especially those with handles like "Rail Meat", "Trimfast" etc.  Forgive me if I am sceptical.

Why do you all not want to see a woman actually run a project? Its been proved that women can win a VOR leg. Have you all got a problem if women might win the event? But I see no possibility of that if men keep control of all the teams.

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5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

You are a cowardly misogynistic punk - typical of far too many Ozzies. 

 

And you are angry clown who has to bring race into every discussion- typical of far to many men with beards. 

You also love to stereotype people from other countries- typical of far to many Trump supporters. 

 

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Why is one exclusive of the other? We can have mixed crews and nobody would object one or more projects that only involve women. But for now it seems like representation and getting experience is most important to make women in ocean racing, and especially the VOR, the new "normal".

Believe me, I would not be in favor of quota regulations anywhere, but in most cases women will never get the same chances as men, even if they work double as hard, are double as clever and double as skilled as men, without a forced quota. It usually takes a lot, a lot, a lot more effort to be accepted as equal, particularly in typical male professions.

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