DTH

Beneteau 10R

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Going on a Great Lakes distance race on a 10R, which is a new boat for me.

1. Any general tips for making these go?

2. How sensitive are they to having weight stored in the back of the boat?

thanks

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On the 10r I beercan race with (generally) 5 crew......

Updated rudder.

Base of mast in center position.

4-6 inches of mast pre-bend.

Lighten the aft end of the boat, especially in light air.(toss tactician overboard)

Store spare sails at  base of mast, generally keep weight over the keel to reduce pitching. Use rail meat to control bow up/down and heel.

Sails best relatively flat, 8-10 degrees heel max.

10-12 knots of wind is when we change from 130 jib to 105 jib.

Jib barber haulers for 105 jib to be able to sheet well inboard.

12-15 knots is when we consider reefing to keep boat on her feet.

Use backstay judiciously.

What race?

Regardless, best of luck!

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, DTH said:

 

1. Any general tips for making these go?

 

code zero

use it early & often

the boats have good legs for long runs and perform best when you can get a spinnaker up.

some of the guys in northern Europe have put jib tracks inboard of the shrouds which is contrary to the conventional or accepted wisdom that the boats like to be sailed fatter, but this may also be due to their use of a different rating system which does not mandate the largest sail plan possible (what we call “optimized” ß?)

have you asked this question on the 10 R Facebook page?

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6 hours ago, Parma said:

code zero

use it early & often

the boats have good legs for long runs and perform best when you can get a spinnaker up.

some of the guys in northern Europe have put jib tracks inboard of the shrouds which is contrary to the conventional or accepted wisdom that the boats like to be sailed fatter, but this may also be due to their use of a different rating system which does not mandate the largest sail plan possible (what we call “optimized” ß?)

have you asked this question on the 10 R Facebook page?

In 10-12 kts TWS this works, will beat J109s easily on speed and pointing, outside of that window they're a dog.

Agree that they are fast downwind (max 120 deg) with a A1 or J0 up.

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17 hours ago, madohe said:

12-15 knots is when we consider reefing to keep boat on her feet.
 

You can't be serious! Or did you mean 12-15 m/s? Certainly no-one around here would reef a First 10R/34.7 below 20 knots while racing. The Estonian First 34.7 fleet is probably the best in the world and I don't think I have ever seen them reef below ~25 knots.

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7 hours ago, Joakim said:

You can't be serious! Or did you mean 12-15 m/s? Certainly no-one around here would reef a First 10R/34.7 below 20 knots while racing. The Estonian First 34.7 fleet is probably the best in the world and I don't think I have ever seen them reef below ~25 knots.

I think the Estonian guys are running a 105% jib and madohe was referring to a 155%, but even so we now keep a 140 (IRC rule sail) up to about 20 and yes the 105% is good to about 25.

On a related note we got a 155 and the sailmaker said the sail fabric was meant for and good up to about 12 but we flew it a bunch in 16-18

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10 minutes ago, Parma said:

I think the Estonian guys are running a 105% jib and madohe was referring to a 155%, but even so we now keep a 140 (IRC rule sail) up to about 20 and yes the 105% is good to about 25.

On a related note we got a 155 and the sailmaker said the sail fabric was meant for and good up to about 12 but we flew it a bunch in 16-18

He said he changes to 105 in 10-12 knots, which sounds good, but to reef at 12-15 knots would certainly make you slow. Also it is likely a bad idea to reef and keep an overlapping headsail.

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The 10R does not reward a lazy lead bottom crew.  Shifting crew weight should be a religion and as Madohe said, stack everything you can at the mast, crew bags first and sails next.  Use the inhauler as a fine tune element for your 130 or 140 and not with a 150 or 155 because it will badly distort the sail.

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Was told by my sailmaker that the HK fleet all reef in 16kts TWS. Boat is faster that way.

We have non overlap so don't.

That said, the boat is fully powered up in 12-14kts TWS in a flattish sea with the new fancy carbon sails. Main is doing SFA in 18kts, might look at rigging the reef.

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3 hours ago, SteveC said:

Was told by my sailmaker that the HK fleet all reef in 16kts TWS. Boat is faster that way.

We have non overlap so don't.

That said, the boat is fully powered up in 12-14kts TWS in a flattish sea with the new fancy carbon sails. Main is doing SFA in 18kts, might look at rigging the reef.

Huh! Will have to try that to see, despite the ignominy of being seen with a reefed main in 16.

Is it the case that the HK boats have the original rudder and the reefing is done to control the amount of windchecking?

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14 hours ago, SteveC said:

Was told by my sailmaker that the HK fleet all reef in 16kts TWS. Boat is faster that way.

We have non overlap so don't.

That said, the boat is fully powered up in 12-14kts TWS in a flattish sea with the new fancy carbon sails. Main is doing SFA in 18kts, might look at rigging the reef.

What does "Main is doing SFA" mean? Sure the boat is fully powered up in 12-14 kts, if not even earlier. That doesn't mean reefing is needed.There are many classes that power up way sooner than 34.7/10R and never reef.

You need to trim the headsail and rig so that you can sail up to 25 kts without excessive backwinding of mainsail. My own boat is not 34.7/10R, but is about the same size and with clearly more sail area. We used to be in trouble at 18+kts, but changed the rig trim and now we would never reef in a race below 25 kts and we are much faster than we used be. I have raced many times against the Estonian 34.7 fleet and they don't have any problems with full mainsail in 20-25 kts TWS.

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Here is the message I would give to anyone getting ready for a distance race..

  • Look at the way the boat is rigged and decide what options you have for sail changes (kites and jibs)
  • Carry extra sheets (spin and jib)
  • Carry gear for outboard jib leads
  • Make sure you have your storm sails and understand how to rig them (NOR and SI may require them)
  • Make sure you can double reef the main (NOR and SIs may require this)
  • Make sure the shitter works or be prepared hang your ass over the side. The Great Lakes have regulations regarding pump out. These may be different depending on which lake and which country you're in.

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I have a 10R on Lake Michigan and use it for solo distance stuff.

A lot of the above points are valid, although I generally wont reef until around 20 even singlehanded.  I have a battened #3 and crush the backstay and the boat tends to stay on its feet.  It really really requires a very active main trimmer.  It's an incredibly fast boat in light air and likes the main overtrimmed traveller to windward (obviously depends on other stuff, but in my experience this seems to work well).  

I have forward inhaulers for the #3 off the mast base and use the inhauler significantly with my #1 (~145%).  The boat reaches quite well in light air with an A3 (don't have a code but want to add one, heard it rocks).  It's a fun boat to heat up and sail fast, but really need to religiously stick to the polars. 

Like others have said, keep weight right over the keel.  It's very sensitive to weight and you can add a ton of drag by sitting the stern deeper in the water.  Keep the boat as light as possible.  You need the crew weight, but any more than that it feels like it suffers a lot.

Overall, i really dig the boat for distance and it's a much more comfortable ride in waves than you'd think by looking at it.  The bow is empty and light, so beating into waves, you have to work fairly hard driving to keep the bow from getting knocked off every wave...Hope that helps a little...Which 10R?

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18 hours ago, Parma said:

Huh! Will have to try that to see, despite the ignominy of being seen with a reefed main in 16.

Is it the case that the HK boats have the original rudder and the reefing is done to control the amount of windchecking?

Don't know what rudder they have, we have the new (bigger) one.

7 hours ago, Joakim said:

What does "Main is doing SFA" mean? Sure the boat is fully powered up in 12-14 kts, if not even earlier. That doesn't mean reefing is needed.There are many classes that power up way sooner than 34.7/10R and never reef.

You need to trim the headsail and rig so that you can sail up to 25 kts without excessive backwinding of mainsail. My own boat is not 34.7/10R, but is about the same size and with clearly more sail area. We used to be in trouble at 18+kts, but changed the rig trim and now we would never reef in a race below 25 kts and we are much faster than we used be. I have raced many times against the Estonian 34.7 fleet and they don't have any problems with full mainsail in 20-25 kts TWS.

Doing SFA means it's not driving most of the time. The reasoning is it's faster because powering up the main causes more heel and therefore more weather helm which needs more rudder to correct it. Full main with 50% helm is not fast. Feathering is the only other fast option but that needs 200% concentration and means the driver cannot also be skipper / tactician because as soon as you look around and lose the feather slot, the boat will overpower and spin.

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2 hours ago, SteveC said:

Doing SFA means it's not driving most of the time. The reasoning is it's faster because powering up the main causes more heel and therefore more weather helm which needs more rudder to correct it. Full main with 50% helm is not fast. Feathering is the only other fast option but that needs 200% concentration and means the driver cannot also be skipper / tactician because as soon as you look around and lose the feather slot, the boat will overpower and spin.

I'm just watching this conversation because I have a B 40.7 with somewhat similar sailing traits. That doesn't qualify me to advise you but I think you heard from several B 10R sailors that backwinding the main shouldn't be necessary in 20-25kts apparent with a #3 up if the rig and trim are properly set. Back in the old IOR ribbon main days when the 155 genoa was the big power provider, that technique actually made some sense but I know, in my particular case, what worked then doesn't equate to fast trim on present my boat. You might want to listen to these guys. After all, you did ask. 

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33 minutes ago, kinardly said:

I'm just watching this conversation because I have a B 40.7 with somewhat similar sailing traits. That doesn't qualify me to advise you but I think you heard from several B 10R sailors that backwinding the main shouldn't be necessary in 20-25kts apparent with a #3 up if the rig and trim are properly set. Back in the old IOR ribbon main days when the 155 genoa was the big power provider, that technique actually made some sense but I know, in my particular case, what worked then doesn't equate to fast trim on present my boat. You might want to listen to these guys. After all, you did ask. 

I'm listening, most definitely. I'm not saying what I'm doing is best, just trying to make sense of it all really. 

The balance seems to be between more power in the sails vs braking / stalling action of the rudder because of excess WH. 

I can outperform a new Benny First 35 by out pointing them and still maintaining boat speed using feathering - but - that could be down to them not having a good driver.

Where I'm struggling is with J109's - even the worst of them are beating us despite the IRC difference.

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You don't want to have too much heel nor too much weather helm, but at the same time you don't want to have excessive backwinding on the mainsail. Thus you must flatten and twist the mainsail by pulling the backstay really hard (and possibly changing the rig trim) and playing with traveller and main sheet. Backwinding is caused by headsail. It is very important to have the headsail also enough flat, twisted and not too tightly sheeted. Move the headsail car backwards (and ease the sheet) until you no longer get too much backwinding.

Target AWA increases rapidly when the wind increases above 16-20 kts. You should increase sheating angles with increasing wind and AWA.

You should not be able to match a First 35 on a beat. They are not sailing that well if you do. 16-20 kts beat First 35 should be about equal to J/109. J/109 is not that common around here, but we have a few First 35 and some of them are very well sailed. They can easily beat the Estonian 34.7 fleet in sailed times.

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3 minutes ago, Joakim said:

You don't want to have too much heel nor too much weather helm, but at the same time you don't want to have excessive backwinding on the mainsail. Thus you must flatten and twist the mainsail by pulling the backstay really hard (and possibly changing the rig trim) and playing with traveller and main sheet. Backwinding is caused by headsail. It is very important to have the headsail also enough flat, twisted and not too tightly sheeted. Move the headsail car backwards (and ease the sheet) until you no longer get too much backwinding.

Target AWA increases rapidly when the wind increases above 16-20 kts. You should increase sheating angles with increasing wind and AWA.

You should not be able to match a First 35 on a beat. They are not sailing that well if you do. 16-20 kts beat First 35 should be about equal to J/109. J/109 is not that common around here, but we have a few First 35 and some of them are very well sailed. They can easily beat the Estonian 34.7 fleet in sailed times.

yes, backstay is enormously important.  When i had an older, blown out main i was struggling in 15.  new main and crushing the backstay makes the boat very controllable.  I agree that trying to beat a 109 boat for boat probably wont happen unless it's really light and even then unlikely.  should be quicker than a 105 but not the 109.

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The ultimate key to going fast in the boat is keeping it balanced.  It quickly develops weather helm and so aggressively depowering the main, moving the rig forward (lots of turns on the headstay as wind builds), etc. are all effective.  Going back to the reefing issue, we stumbled upon this configuration during a long upwind overnight race.  The wind built to around 15 kts and we had the 155% up.  We tucked in a reef and found the boat to be much more balanced and actually quite fast using this setup.  Again, it moved the CE forward in the sailplan and helped with balance.  Of course this was with older, blown out sails.  With new, flatter sails the boat is much more manageable in 12-14 kts with the full sailplan.  That being said, we still go down to the #3 in anything around 15.  We've been sailing the boat for 6 years and are still working on our boatspeed in moderate conditions.  In anything under about 7 kts we are typically very fast.  Waterline and deep running conditions are not our friend...

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Out of interest are people willing to post their IRC rating here?

We are 0.984, only other 34.7 in the fleet is 0.990,  similar non-overlap sailplans.

109's are all around 1.012 - 1.015

F35 is 1.017

XP35 is 1.018 

A35 is 1.021

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Geeez, wheres walterbshaffer? didn't he have one of these in Sandy Eggo?

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3 hours ago, hobot said:

Geeez, wheres walterbshaffer? didn't he have one of these in Sandy Eggo?

i heard dubya changed his name to hobot & moved to washington state.

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Nobody in their right mind willingly moves to Washington State, it's overrun with Tech Bro's, it rains ALOT and the price of Real Estate is through the roof!

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I don't depower: I feather up into the puff before the wind takes control of the rig and then bear off when I feel it letting go of the rig.

1/4 speed bubble in the main when continuous.

The skinnier, deeper rudder is $ well spent. (FU Bene & FYD for not going with that rudder in the first place. DHs!)

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Feather first, then ease the traveller.

Main trim and helm need to be in total sync for it to work. We have a piece of tape on the wheel that marks zero / straight and the main trimmer watches that more than anything else when it's heavy. That, combined with feathering is fast and gives good VMG but it's sailing on a knife edge. Even with the deep rudder it can go from feathering to overpowered and spin immediately if the main trim doesn't react fast.

Problem is - helm is sailing / feathering based on angle of heal - which is something the main trim is in charge of. If main trim eases in a puff, helm bears down for more power, boat accelerates too much, AWS goes up and at the same time main trim is recovering and adding more power again - result is a spin. Hence, both have to be perfectly in sync all the time. 

 

I learned this way back when sailing Impalas in a breeze: upwind, the main trimmer steers the boat, downwind, the crew on the kicker / vang steers. The helm only could only make vague suggestions as to where the boat went. :D

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