DoubleTakes

Trailer-able performance cruisers under 5k?

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Anybody have any ideas of a performance boat under 5k? Doesnt have to be new or anything, just a decent performer that can be had for relatively cheap. Also needs to be able to survive SF bay winds(17-25kts) and chop.

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41 minutes ago, DoubleTakes said:

Anybody have any ideas of a performance boat under 5k? Doesnt have to be new or anything, just a decent performer that can be had for relatively cheap. Also needs to be able to survive SF bay winds(17-25kts) and chop.

I know of a J24 with trailer for sale, asking $6K Canadian dollars (about $US 4500) - in Vancouver, BC.  Don’t know if that fits your requirements other than price...

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Cal 20 and Santana 22's are often sailed in SF bay.  I have no idea how much they go for and not sure what shape the boat and trailer will be in for 5K.  They seem to be good bay boats though.  Moore 24 is the all time classic small performance boat for SF bay but I think they are in high demand, hard to find and probably go for more than 5k.  Just my guess though.

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41 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I know of a J24 with trailer for sale, asking $6K Canadian dollars (about $US 4500) - in Vancouver, BC.  Don’t know if that fits your requirements other than price...

Im not super into j/24s due to their lack of cabinspace and ability to sink if knocked down.

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1 hour ago, DoubleTakes said:

Im not super into j/24s due to their lack of cabinspace and ability to sink if knocked down.

Are going RTW?

 

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3 hours ago, DoubleTakes said:

Im not super into j/24s due to their lack of cabinspace and ability to sink if knocked down.

Knocked down?  In “17-25 and chop”?  Things happen, but...

For $5K, “performance” perhaps Santana 20 https://www.s20.org/classified-ads/

But they’ll also likely sink if knocked down, like many small boats...plan ahead to avoid this scenario.

But if a J24 has too small a cabin, a Santana 20 certainly will.  But you also want trailerable.  An Olson 30 needing lots of work for $5K maybe, trailerable but not easily so.  Merit 25.  Slightly bigger than the too small J24.

What are you willing to compromise on?  Performance?  Cabin size? Trailerability?  Price?  Looks like a hard order to fill otherwise...

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Knocked down?  In “17-25 and chop”?  Things happen, but...

For $5K, “performance” perhaps Santana 20 https://www.s20.org/classified-ads/

But they’ll also likely sink if knocked down, like many small boats...plan ahead to avoid this scenario.

But if a J24 has too small a cabin, a Santana 20 certainly will.  But you also want trailerable.  An Olson 30 needing lots of work for $5K maybe, trailerable but not easily so.  Merit 25.  Slightly bigger than the too small J24.

What are you willing to compromise on?  Performance?  Cabin size? Trailerability?  Price?  Looks like a hard order to fill otherwise...

I owned 2 Santana 20's over the years.  Great boats, a lot of fun and they're cheap.  They excel on flat water and light to moderate winds.  Sailing an S20 in SF bay would be a hate mission though.  It could be done but it's not really what the boat is made for.  It doesn't like heavy wind or chop.  Not saying it can't and hasn't been done but it most definitely wouldn't be an enjoyable experience.  Not knowing many specifics of the OP's dream boat I'd still recommend a Santana 22 and Cal 20.  They've both stood the test of time in SF Bay and people seem to be very happy with them.

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Knocked down?  In “17-25 and chop”?  Things happen, but...

It can get nasty quick. Had a day where I went out in 20 and came back with 40knts breeze. 

 

If of anything I would compromise cabin space/trailerability for speed/stability 

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San Juan 24? 

It can lawn dart perfectly.

If things get out of control, just go down below for a nice nap and you’ll wake up on your trailer. 

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S2 7.9.

 

Good performer, trailerable. Well built. Can handle breeze. 

I don’t know if the daggerboard is a problem in a knockdown. Some have expressed concern about it slamming upwards in a bad wipeout.  Not sure there’s evidence of that, or just a potential problem. 

Under $5k might be a challenge, but not impossible. 

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What about a Santana 23? I never sailed one in a blow but they haul ass in 20 kts. Hard to find a good one but the price should be close to your budget. 

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6 hours ago, valcour said:

S2 7.9.

 

Good performer, trailerable. Well built. Can handle breeze. 

I don’t know if the daggerboard is a problem in a knockdown. Some have expressed concern about it slamming upwards in a bad wipeout.  Not sure there’s evidence of that, or just a potential problem. 

Under $5k might be a challenge, but not impossible. 

There is a 7.9 on the Class Facebook Page that is listed for $4k in Wisconsin.  Boat needs a little cosmetic love, but the seller bills it as solid.

I'm pretty sure AlanH is on SF bay and has a CB 7.9.

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33 minutes ago, kinardly said:

What about a Santana 23? I never sailed one in a blow but they haul ass in 20 kts. Hard to find a good one but the price should be close to your budget. 

Guy I know just got one for $500.  Needs some work, but apparently the seller simply didn’t know what boat was worth...

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23 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I know of a J24 with trailer for sale, asking $6K Canadian dollars (about $US 4500) - in Vancouver, BC.  Don’t know if that fits your requirements other than price...

J24's on SF bay? only if you have a penchant for the wrong boat, at the wrong venue, in a shit fleet.  seriously, that SF bay j24 fleet, except for one boat that wins all the races is awful.  and the boat is a dangerous tank for those conditions...

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Moore is supposed to be a light weight flyer.

Must be able to handle rougher stuff, Webb Chiles is near completing a circumnavigation in one.

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23 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Are going RTW?

 

Please tell me they didn't leave the man overboard in the water(dragging behind the boat) while getting down their flag poled kite? 

 

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Santana 22 is a stiff little boat - about the ideal boat of that size for SF Bay.  Part of the reason is it's 4' deep fixed keel however, which makes ramp launching a challenge.  Moore 24 has the same issue.

I don't think you'll find the Moore 24 has any more room below than the J/24.  It is a bit more seaworthy, though.

If you insist on big and spacious, maybe a Catalina 25.  They're a handful to trailer too, though.  Nobody would ever use the word "Performance" and "Catalina 25" together in the same sentence, though.

It seems like you're looking for a "bulletproof" boat to take care of you in all conditions, but I'm hard pressed to think of anything in the 24 and under range that the sailor can't sink on SF Bay when the froth is up and you just keep piling on bad decisions...

As always, all boats are compromises.  Decide what your top priorities are, and where you're willing to accept something less than optimal, and some boats will start to come into focus.

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It's enough of a challenge to find a good trailerable boat without demanding performance too, and then to say "oh and I'll only pay 5k"

A good highway trailer for a 2~4k lb boat can cost more than that. Then there is the question, what is "trailerable" ? Not a J-24, but lots of people do it anyway.

IMHO there's nothing inherently un-tough about a lightweight flyer. And any good boat should stand up to SF Bay.

FB... Doug

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On 6/25/2018 at 4:54 PM, Hugh Jorgan said:

Cal 20 and Santana 22's are often sailed in SF bay.  I have no idea how much they go for and not sure what shape the boat and trailer will be in for 5K.  They seem to be good bay boats though.  Moore 24 is the all time classic small performance boat for SF bay but I think they are in high demand, hard to find and probably go for more than 5k.  Just my guess though.

HMBYC has a Cal 20 on trailer in prime race condition for his price range because owner relocated to Ireland and left this boat behind.  Raced regularly on the bay.

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On 6/25/2018 at 10:20 PM, DoubleTakes said:

If of anything I would compromise cabin space/trailerability for speed/stability 

I just saw that one.

Based on that, you almost for sure want either a Cal 20 or a Santana 22.  A Moore 24 is going to be out of your price range.

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Trailerable, Fast, Seaworthy on SF Bay, Less than $5k all in. Pick three of the four options and your chances increase greatly.

Maybe the Mark Marine 23 bjmoose posted fits the bill so it is at least worth a look. This might be the winner.

I have always had a soft spot for 'tuna 22s, they are great boats but some of the older inexpensive ones can turn into money pits and not often available with trailers.

Moore 24 is always a winner in my book. Owned two, saw many being built, one of my favorite boats there is. Problem is you're looking at $10k, at least. Worth every penny.

I'll add Wilderness 21 to the list since they have not been mentioned already. Not easy to find, but they pop up once in a while.

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Just now, MikeR80 said:

Olson 30's are great boats.  id pass on that project for that price though.

Yeah, the guy is trying to sell it for 15k but it needs new sails, new paint, new electronics, and may have some structural issues.

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pass on that.  structural issues are deal breakers for me.  the thing should probably be cut up and turned into an artificial reef.

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There is the Ranger 23 to consider as well. Slightly larger than the Santana 22, both designed by Gary Mull, about the same era. The Ranger is an newer design andMull configured it to be able to sail as a quarter tonner. (not that that makes any difference now)

Sailboat Data for each:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=310         Ranger 23

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=223.       Santana 22

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/d/1975-ranger-23-sailboat-for/6627627471.html

 

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On 6/25/2018 at 5:21 PM, DoubleTakes said:

Im not super into j/24s due to their lack of cabinspace and ability to sink if knocked down.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and totally appreciate your ability to not care for the J-24.  That said, many great small boats (in their original specification) could sink if capsized, the J is by no way unique in that regard.  Given that, and the fact that most of the J-24s that have sunk, have sunk when being pushed hard in sporty conditions, (J-24s rarely sink upwind...its when they are going downwind in big wind/waves with a chute that folks get in some trouble)  when and there was a lack of attention to seamanship on the part of the crew...(unlatched/locked cockpit lockers, open companionways, no companion way sliding hatch installed, foredeck hatch not secured) that it it hard to blame the inherent design or qualities of the boat for that.  There are plenty of J-24s that have raced in those very same conditions on done very well, and not capsized or sunk. 

2013 version of the Down the Bay race featured just the conditions you are talking about.  Winds 25-40kts from the North.  120nm downwind course.  I did the race on a Jeanneau 42 performance edition in non-spin.  We saw surfs to 18 knots without a chute, and averaged 10kts down rumbline.  A J-24 racing in PHRF C finished an hour and 11 minutes behind us.  They beat every boat in PHRF B on Elapsed Time, boat for boat!  They were less than an hour behind all but 3 PHRF A boats on elapsed time!  

You want fast and stable in sporty conditions?  I give you a J-24.

 

Now that aside, like others have said, not sure you can get what you want for under 5k.  Seems the ideal 2 boats are a S2 7.9 or an Olson 25 as I don't really see the Moore as having that much more room below than a J-24, but both of those are all closer to $11k or more.  To get a boat that doesn't mean needing to throw alot of money at once you buy it means buying a nicer, but older Cal 20, Santana 22, Ranger 23, etc.  They were fast for their time, and stable as well...so it depends entirely on your definition of fast, stable, with "more room" than a J-24.

 

Good luck!  Let us know what you end up with.

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11 hours ago, DoubleTakes said:

I think I’ve located an Olson 30 that can be had for about 6k but will need a lot of work. Any opinions?

30' doesn't seem very trailerable, depending on what your intentions are for the boat.  Are you looking for a boat you can easily tow around to different places or just something that can be dry sailed and rarely be towed around?  If you just want a dry sailed boat that stays in the lot your options open up a little more.  If you're open to wet sailed boats you'll have plenty more options too, even while keeping the price around 5K.

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39 minutes ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

30' doesn't seem very trailerable, depending on what your intentions are for the boat.  Are you looking for a boat you can easily tow around to different places or just something that can be dry sailed and rarely be towed around?  If you just want a dry sailed boat that stays in the lot your options open up a little more.  If you're open to wet sailed boats you'll have plenty more options too, even while keeping the price around 5K.

trailerability depends more weight and width, boss

I'm pretty sure he's not into spending 300-400 a month on a slip in the SF bay area for a $5k boat.

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16 hours ago, DoubleTakes said:

I think I’ve located an Olson 30 that can be had for about 6k but will need a lot of work. Any opinions?

With trailer? What kind of work does it need? If it were me I would be all over it, depending on how much it needs (and what your skills and available time allow). If it is just a tired race boat that is still seaworthy for pleasure sailing and that is your intention, then it could be a great deal. If you need to put a ton of money in it to make it safe, that might be another story. Assuming good mast step (preferably already modified inside), good standing rigging, and decent sails it is probably a bargain. Have the hull and deck checked for moisture in the balsa. Overall Olson 30s were very well built and will stand the test of time quite well.

It is as light as many 22-25 footers. Moore 24s, Olson 30s, etc. get towed to and launched at Huntington Lake (7000' up in the Sierras). A tongue extension or long cable to completely submerse the trailer is needed but that is an example of a pretty typical ramp launch. (Also an incredible place to sail.)

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12 minutes ago, msvphoto said:

With trailer? What kind of work does it need? If it were me I would be all over it, depending on how much it needs (and what your skills and available time allow). If it is just a tired race boat that is still seaworthy for pleasure sailing and that is your intention, then it could be a great deal. If you need to put a ton of money in it to make it safe, that might be another story. Assuming good mast step (preferably already modified inside), good standing rigging, and decent sails it is probably a bargain. Have the hull and deck checked for moisture in the balsa. Overall Olson 30s were very well built and will stand the test of time quite well.

It is as light as many 22-25 footers. Moore 24s, Olson 30s, etc. get towed to and launched at Huntington Lake (7000' up in the Sierras). A tongue extension or long cable to completely submerse the trailer is needed but that is an example of a pretty typical ramp launch. (Also an incredible place to sail.)

It needs a lot of new equipment, and a full set of new sails, a new engine, and a new paint job. Guy wants to sell trailer separate, but hopefully I can get him to include it in the price 

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13 hours ago, Crash said:

I'm not trying to pick a fight, and totally appreciate your ability to not care for the J-24.  That said, many great small boats (in their original specification) could sink if capsized, the J is by no way unique in that regard.  Given that, and the fact that most of the J-24s that have sunk, have sunk when being pushed hard in sporty conditions, (J-24s rarely sink upwind...its when they are going downwind in big wind/waves with a chute that folks get in some trouble)  when and there was a lack of attention to seamanship on the part of the crew...(unlatched/locked cockpit lockers, open companionways, no companion way sliding hatch installed, foredeck hatch not secured) that it it hard to blame the inherent design or qualities of the boat for that.  There are plenty of J-24s that have raced in those very same conditions on done very well, and not capsized or sunk. 

2013 version of the Down the Bay race featured just the conditions you are talking about.  Winds 25-40kts from the North.  120nm downwind course.  I did the race on a Jeanneau 42 performance edition in non-spin.  We saw surfs to 18 knots without a chute, and averaged 10kts down rumbline.  A J-24 racing in PHRF C finished an hour and 11 minutes behind us.  They beat every boat in PHRF B on Elapsed Time, boat for boat!  They were less than an hour behind all but 3 PHRF A boats on elapsed time!  

You want fast and stable in sporty conditions?  I give you a J-24.

 

Now that aside, like others have said, not sure you can get what you want for under 5k.  Seems the ideal 2 boats are a S2 7.9 or an Olson 25 as I don't really see the Moore as having that much more room below than a J-24, but both of those are all closer to $11k or more.  To get a boat that doesn't mean needing to throw alot of money at once you buy it means buying a nicer, but older Cal 20, Santana 22, Ranger 23, etc.  They were fast for their time, and stable as well...so it depends entirely on your definition of fast, stable, with "more room" than a J-24.

 

Good luck!  Let us know what you end up with.

I was on that J24. The kite blew up within the first hour of the race leaving a small scrap at the halyard. We did the rest of the race with the Genoa and Main, alternating between wing on wing and deep reaching. I doubt I will ever go that fast on a J24 again. That race will forever be one of the best of my life.

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1 hour ago, DoubleTakes said:

Hoist w/ 2ton crane

Have you looked into getting a dry storage space?  With the announced redevelopment of Alameda Marina, dry storage space is even more at a premium than usual, I think.

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3 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

I was on that J24. The kite blew up within the first hour of the race leaving a small scrap at the halyard. We did the rest of the race with the Genoa and Main, alternating between wing on wing and deep reaching. I doubt I will ever go that fast on a J24 again. That race will forever be one of the best of my life.

It was a truly epic performance by you guys!

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Google the C&C Mega 30.  Might have been ahead of it's time, but about your price range and can trailer.

 

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+1 Cal 20, Santana 22, and Folkboat.  All available in the area, within the budget.  Ranger 23 is a good call too.

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On 6/25/2018 at 8:21 PM, DoubleTakes said:

Im not super into j/24s due to their ability to sink if knocked down.

Always thought that was the only positive attribute of those horrible painbox miseryships...

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Out of left field, I brought a midwestern boat to the Bay Area in 1991. 23’ Pearson cat-rigged daysailor. I still see it in alameda occasionally. There are a few of them here. It was great. Easy to sail, quick as a j24, maybe didn’t point as high. Cheap as chips to run. 

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On 6/28/2018 at 3:25 PM, Crash said:

It was a truly epic performance by you guys!

That was an epic day of sailing.

 

 

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On 6/25/2018 at 3:55 PM, DoubleTakes said:

Anybody have any ideas of a performance boat under 5k? Doesnt have to be new or anything, just a decent performer that can be had for relatively cheap. Also needs to be able to survive SF bay winds(17-25kts) and chop.

I am also looking for a trailerable ULDB blue water cruising boat with good accomodations, an inboard diesel  & shoal draft for under 3k

let me know what you find

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7 minutes ago, DoubleTakes said:

Any ideas on if an olson 25 would work?

 

Probably, but you're looking at somewhere around $10k rather than $5k.  Are they trailerable? Depends on how you define trailerable.  If you mean you can put it on a trailer, almost any boat would be.   If you mean launch or put away in an hour, then likely no.

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I recommend the Dehler 25 if you can find one. I have sailed mine in 40-45 knots with no issues. Triple reefed main no jib (I don't have a storm jib). Very stiff boat for a 25 footer. 18" of draft with everything up 4.5 foot with it down it has a 800 lb cast iron lifting keel and 800 lbs of water ballast. Seems to be very tough and is fast up wind and not to bad at other points. It was designed to cross the English channel and is very popular in the UK. I have one for sale in Texas for $5,000 with a 2 year old main sail on a trailer.

I upgraded (I hope) to a C&C Mega 30 I just purchased the Mega and I haven't but it in the water yet. If you can find one of them they would also fit the bill. I can't recommend one yet as I haven't sailed on one yet. But on paper they would a good choice. Trailer-able with a sub 2' draft with everything up 5' with it all down. Other owners tell me they will plane when conditions are right and are supposed to be very fast on all points except upwind. They are not known as the best pointing boats and since they are a 8' beam they are initially tender before they settle in. That will be different than the Dehler as it out points everything in its class and is very stiff.

 

Jay

 

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On 6/28/2018 at 11:55 AM, DoubleTakes said:
On 6/28/2018 at 11:31 AM, valcour said:

Ramp or hoist launch?

Hoist w/ 2ton crane

Kind of an important detail.

If you're leaving the rig up and you're not backing a trailer down a ramp, lots of boats become more trailerable.

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