Kiwing

Time foiling

Time foiling?  

30 members have voted

  1. 1. Will there be races with less the 10% foiling time

    • no races at all
    • less than 3 races
    • More then 3 but not all races
    • all races


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Will there be races when the boats foil for less than 10% of the time?

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Wow Barfy what do you know about this rig (double sails) that I don't?

And did you think it was easy to foil all the time in those AC34 cats with all that power and control?

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Actually the more I think about it the more I think you might be right.

Relative to the wing the 2 sails don't have the power or the control.

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I voted more than 3.

I'm assuming this includes the whole Challenger series as well as the AC proper.

 

There is likely to be at least a couple of really light days where very little if any foiling happens, 2+ races per day -> 3+.

On the other hand they may just abandon/not start on those days so that'd up the fly % a lot *shrug*

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What are the conditions in the Gulf in January-March, how variable? 

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19 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

What are the conditions in the Gulf in January-March, how variable? 

The wind in the Hauraki Gulf is so variable that it cannot be predicted on a seasonal basis, from 0 to 50 knots is possible at any time.

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Do we know the limits for racing? particularly the lower wind limit and the maximum race duration?

I hope to refine this Poll to get a feel for "our" % of race time foiling.

Maybe If I were to specify 10 to 20 knots.  There would not be so many variables to cope with.

Or maybe % of total race time might be a got poll too.

Suggestions please.

 

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Thanks Terry, sounds like our Solent then!

In that case some non-foiling races sound likely. I wouldn't care to guess how many.

 

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21.93%

P.S. I have a friend who is a flying instructor. When asked to predict the weather, he says something like "the rain will stop at 11:24". . He means the rain will eventually stop. It's a joke, which many don't get at first.

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OK @dogwatch given wind conditions 5-10 knots 30% of the race time, 10-15 knots 30% of the race time, 15-20 Knots 30% of the race time. Upwind sailing 60% and down wind 40% (is that realistic?) what % of the time will they foil?

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We will see, won't we? I am looking forward to it.

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On the basis of the preliminary performance predictions disclosed, take-off (on a beam reach) won't happen with wind below 13 kts, and boats cannot stay foil-borne below 8-9 kts

 

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On 6/30/2018 at 12:07 AM, Xlot said:

On the basis of the preliminary performance predictions disclosed, take-off (on a beam reach) won't happen with wind below 13 kts, and boats cannot stay foil-borne below 8-9 kts

 

Preliminary predictions for the AC72 was that it was impossible to make them foil, this prediction was then updated to it being impossible to make them foil upwind...

Nature Science finds a way!

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44 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Preliminary predictions for the AC72 was that it was impossible to make them foil

You must have missed the years of speculation about the possibility of them foiling? That discussion dates back even to AC33. 

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13 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

You must have missed the years of speculation about the possibility of them foiling? That discussion dates back even to AC33. 

Yes and there is now speculation that these will too... so given your logic all good then eh? ;-)

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12 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Yes and there is now speculation that these will too... so given your logic all good then eh? ;-)

Whatever, dude. ;-)

They will foil when conditions allow, hopefully it won’t come down to the extremely marginal conditions that happened in Bermuda where one boat could foil but the faster boat couldn’t ;)

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Whatever, dude. ;-)

They will foil when conditions allow, hopefully it won’t come down to the extremely marginal conditions that happened in Bermuda where one boat could foil but the faster boat couldn’t ;)

Only the shit boats mate... poorly sailed... it's called losing... ;-)

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3 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

They will foil when conditions allow, hopefully it won’t come down to the extremely marginal conditions that happened in Bermuda where one boat could foil but the faster boat couldn’t ;)

'dat bad losering lol :wub:

Maybe if they'd concentrated on the expected conditions for the match and configuring their boat to the min-weight like every fucking racing sailor ever...

Still not a fucking peep from Orifice camp on what the fuck they were thinking going for max weight & hiking.

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18 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

You must have missed the years of speculation about the possibility of them foiling? That discussion dates back even to AC33. 

You must have missed the weeks of disbelief when the pictures from Auckland first came out.....followed by months of 'It wont be any faster anyway'!?

'Cause there's 'foiling' as Oracle could imagine it - and then there's real foiling

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3 hours ago, nav said:

You must have missed the weeks of disbelief when the pictures from Auckland first came out.....followed by months of 'It wont be any faster anyway'!?

'Cause there's 'foiling' as Oracle could imagine it - and then there's real foiling

Nah Nav, *everyone* knew it was possible, that's why only one team was attempting it and caught everyone else by surprise when it happened... ;-)

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On 7/2/2018 at 11:37 AM, Stingray~ said:

Whatever, dude. ;-)

They will foil when conditions allow, hopefully it won’t come down to the extremely marginal conditions that happened in Bermuda where one boat could foil but the faster boat couldn’t ;)

If it wasn't foiling, it wasn't the faster boat...

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One of the faster (than OR) boats lost because man overboard !!

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On 7/2/2018 at 11:37 AM, Stingray~ said:

Whatever, dude. ;-)

They will foil when conditions allow, hopefully it won’t come down to the extremely marginal conditions that happened in Bermuda where one boat could foil but the faster boat couldn’t ;)

Hahaha thats gotta be the funniest comment on this whole thread! 

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4 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Hahaha thats gotta be the funniest comment on this whole thread! 

It may be the most insightful one too ;)

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

It may be the most insightful one too ;)

You'll find the faster boat was the one that had a higher percentage of foiling around the course, was the first to tick off the 100% fly time achievement, and ended up demolishing the slower boat, which lets face it, would've been smoked by either finalist of the Challenger Series.

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No point in going fastest for 10% of the time and average slowest speed you'll come last every time!

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1 hour ago, mfluder said:

You'll find the faster boat was the one that had a higher percentage of foiling around the course, was the first to tick off the 100% fly time achievement, and ended up demolishing the slower boat, which lets face it, would've been smoked by either finalist of the Challenger Series.

NZ had only the 4th highest recorded top speed. And the 5 Race days were by luck exactly the lightest-wind days of the month of June ‘17. Several boats were faster than NZ’s any time the wind was above 14 knots. Guilame Verdier said exactly this too. But:

I can re-post all of those data stats as  precise proof.  Can you?  

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Just now, Stingray~ said:

NZ had only the 4th highest recorded top speed. And the 5 Race day’s were by luck exactly the lightest-wind days of the month of June ‘17. Several boats were faster than NZ’s any time the wind was above 14 knots. 

I can re-post all of those stats, can you?

Jesus fucking christ you are seriously going there?!

Stop, think it through...

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7 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Jesus fucking christ you are seriously going there?!

Stop, think it through...

NZ was faster in the marginal foiling conditions at the extreme bottom of the foiling-ability wind range.  

It is and was obvious. Why deny it? 

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8 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

NZ was faster in the marginal foiling conditions at the extreme bottom of the foiling-ability wind range.  

It is and was obvious. Why deny it? 

Here I was thinking you had at least a baseline idea of how sailing worked...

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27 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Here I was thinking you had at least a baseline idea of how sailing worked...

Am just following the obvious. It is not only the stats that prove it, multiple designers have stated it, sailors too, and GD did too in the Clean interview.

The AC35 win involved a big helping of luck for ETNZ for having guessed right about their windrange foil design choice. Stats suggest that on any of the other days in June ‘17 they’d have gotten beat. Even the NZ media got breathless about those forecasts, it was that f’ing obvious. 

Maybe not obvious to you and that’s fine, but you should probably do your dignity a favor and just stop digging ;) 

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20 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Am just following the obvious. It is not only the stats that prove it, multiple designers have stated it, sailors too, and GD did too in the Clean interview.

The AC35 win involved a big helping of luck for ETNZ for having guessed right about their windrange foil design choice. Stats suggest that on any of the other days in June ‘17 they’d have gotten beat. Even the NZ media got breathless about those forecasts, it was that f’ing obvious. 

Maybe not obvious to you and that’s fine, but you should probably do your dignity a favor and just stop digging ;) 

Oh sorry! I see! Yes, right you are - OTUSA built a drag-strip boat for competing in straight-line speed in high wind conditions, but then discovered the other boats weren't dragging them and instead started doing strange things like turning and navigating a course, and doing so in the conditions they thought they would race in. At this point OTUSA a) lost the race and b) lost any ability to demonstrate that they were quicker in a straight line because no-one else was trying to compete in that way, and c) didn't even have the right forecast.

Let me explain how sailing works - ETNZ designed, moded and sailed their boat to the conditions that mattered - the real ones that existed on the days they raced - Did you watch and see them climb over, and around OTUSA like they were running late for lunch? Boat speed wasn't what mattered, VMG did and this was what everyone was focussing on, but good luck finding meaningful comparative VMG stats anyway... 

The conditions that didn't matter, because they didn't exist on any days that sailing took place, are irrelevant, but even just for your own pathetic argument, we have no idea to what extent ETNZ would have crushed OTUSA even further, because we never saw their boat moded and sailed in these conditions.

In any event, it's pure vapour, and anyone trying to suggest that clearly has run out of dignity to bother with... the objective was fastest around the course - no one knows who was fastest in a straight line because that was only ever a collateral metric no one was aiming for... i mean seriously dude, sometimes you are like a child...

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19 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

...anyone trying to suggest that clearly has run out of dignity to bother with... 

A long list of respectably dignified AC authorities are on record saying the exact same thing. The stats prove it too.

But dream on in foolish bliss, if it makes you happy ;)

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12 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

A long list of respectably dignified AC authorities are on record saying the exact same thing. The stats prove it too.

But dream on in foolish bliss, if it makes you happy ;)

Very happy mate... this foolish bliss...

gettyimages-801438074.jpg.4e41569f8042015c26fae47641885e94.jpg.b4c2a559db68f94eaeb6a87ce6458dcf.jpg

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17 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

NZ had only the 4th highest recorded top speed. And the 5 Race days were by luck exactly the lightest-wind days of the month of June ‘17. Several boats were faster than NZ’s any time the wind was above 14 knots. Guilame Verdier said exactly this too. But:

I can re-post all of those data stats as  precise proof.  Can you?  

What the actual fuck? NZ thrashed Oracle 8-1, yet Oracle was a faster boat? How does that work? Two words...it doesn't.

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2 hours ago, mfluder said:

What the actual fuck? NZ thrashed Oracle 8-1, yet Oracle was a faster boat? How does that work? Two words...it doesn't.

Shrug.

NZ did thrash them but in the very, very tight bottom of the wind range. The lightest 5 days of the entire month. ETNZ gambled on that foil design configuration and won, somehow.

Would they have beaten OR in the upper half of the wind range? We will never know but OR did outperform them and everyone else in the (whatever it was called) lead-up ahead of the CSS. In decent wind.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Shrug.

NZ did thrash them but in the very, very tight bottom of the wind range. The lightest 5 days of the entire month. ETNZ gambled on that foil design configuration and won, somehow.

Would they have beaten OR in the upper half of the wind range? We will never know but OR did outperform them and everyone else in the (whatever it was called) lead-up ahead of the CSS. In decent wind.

 

 

giphy.gif

ETNZ calculated the weather accurately and got it right... if anyone gambled it was OTUSA and as a result got smashed...

As for what CSS results tell us... just watch the above gif again...

Seriously... it must have really hurt for over a year later you are still trying to salvage something from was outright embarrassing performance...

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55 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Shrug.

NZ did thrash them but in the very, very tight bottom of the wind range. The lightest 5 days of the entire month. ETNZ gambled on that foil design configuration and won, somehow.

Would they have beaten OR in the upper half of the wind range? We will never know but OR did outperform them and everyone else in the (whatever it was called) lead-up ahead of the CSS. In decent wind.

 

 

So ETNZ clearly had the faster boat designed for what is a predominantly light air venue. GD stated ETNZ was "holding back" gear in NZ, and only got faster once the new gear arrived in Bermuda. It was the opposite of San Francisco. Oracle had thrown all their cards on the table too early, and ETNZ hadn't. They only needed to have enough speed to get through the Challenger final, and then once that was complete, they brought all their weapons to bare, You can go on about wind conditions all you want, but at the end of the day, ETNZ had the better, faster package.

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Sorry Stingray,  I think ETNZ could have thrashed them in any circumstance but they had learnt from the last cup - keep your powder dry.

It was only in the last races that they showed Jimmy how to start in these boats.  I still believe they had tricks up their sleeve like the no look jib and the noone moves jibs (which they did in Hauraki Gulf).

I think they did a great job of convincing Jimmy he would win If only (the wind changed or .......)???  So that he never bought more money and development in until too late.

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On 7/5/2018 at 11:58 AM, Stingray~ said:

NZ had only the 4th highest recorded top speed. And the 5 Race days were by luck exactly the lightest-wind days of the month of June ‘17. Several boats were faster than NZ’s any time the wind was above 14 knots.

Lol.

Except a couple of races the whole thing was under 14kt average and ETNZ were more than competitive including absolutely smoking Orifice Team Japan with straightline, vmg & 100% fly time in RR2.

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On 7/6/2018 at 8:18 AM, Stingray~ said:

Shrug.

NZ did thrash them but in the very, very tight bottom of the wind range. The lightest 5 days of the entire month. ETNZ gambled on that foil design configuration and won, somehow.

Would they have beaten OR in the upper half of the wind range? We will never know but OR did outperform them and everyone else in the (whatever it was called) lead-up ahead of the CSS. In decent wind.

 

 

Get a sandbag up ya! ETNZ left several in the Great Sound through the CSS... 8)

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