Connor.kainalu

Protesting other fleets

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Last weekend, we were winning our class, and a guy racing on the same course, but in a different fleet fouled us at the windward mark.  We had bared (borne?) away at the mark and got the kite up, and a Farr 30 from a different fleet was on port layline, and we had to make a major course change to avoid. I wasn't sure if it was even possible to protest a different boat in a different fleet, and even though they passed us downwind, they managed to let us roll them in a smaller boat crewed entirely by teenagers, and we dumped bad air on them for the whole upwind. (It's safe to say we humiliated them)

 

But anyway, is it ok, or even possible to protest a different fleet?  If so, is it something that's frowned upon?

Also, please advise on the past tense of "bare away"

 

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60 RIGHT TO PROTEST; ...
60.1 A boat may (a) protest another boat, ... for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 [that] she was involved in or saw ...;

BASIC PRINCIPLES
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

Rule 63.8 specifically deals with protest between boats in different races.

If YOU think another boat has broken a rule and should be penalised YOU SHOULD

  1. hail 'protest' and display a red flag if required;
  2. deliver a timely written protest;
  3. attend the protest hearing and present evidence and argument in support of your protest.

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I'd be interested to discuss the mark rounding, if you were changing course, as you say, did you give the port boat room to keep clear?

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By the time the situation happened, we had the kite up and were on our proper course 

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I was just wondering how long after you stopped turning down, did you have to alter. You said they were on port layline. 

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Different fleets....wouldn't be easier to just stay clear of each other ?

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10 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

By the time the situation happened, we had the kite up and were on our proper course 

It sounds you were on Starboard with the kite up and they were on port?
You need to be more specific.

But I have to deal with a J24 fleet coming up wind after we round and set. Sometimes it is close

Pay attention and be mindful

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You should have protested because at least one of you would have learned something.

You would have answered your own question "Can I protest boats in other fleets?" The answer is yes

The port tacker would have learned the they should have given way

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IMO...Racing rules are over emphasis beginning in Opti's or whatever the youth boat maybe...there has been a culture of intimidation  created and that somehow has become thought to be the norm...of course there need to be clearly understood rules and enforced when fouls occur....but to knee jerk...go hunting and intimidating is out of per portion to most weekend sailboat racing

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16 hours ago, Brass said:

BASIC PRINCIPLES
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

If YOU think another boat has broken a rule and should be penalised YOU SHOULD

  1. hail 'protest' and display a red flag if required;
  2. deliver a timely written protest;
  3. attend the protest hearing and present evidence and argument in support of your protest.

So the ultimate sea lawyer question: if you witness, for example, a port-starboard violation and S declines to protest, could you protest both boats? P for breaking Rule 10, and S for breaking the Basic Principle by failing to enforce Rule 10 by protesting?

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Its simple - remind them that you are using the 'new' rule book where starboard has right of way over port!

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13 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

By the time the situation happened, we had the kite up and were on our proper course 

 

3 hours ago, SailChiTown said:

I was just wondering how long after you stopped turning down, did you have to alter. You said they were on port layline. 

 

3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

It sounds you were on Starboard with the kite up and they were on port?
You need to be more specific.

But I have to deal with a J24 fleet coming up wind after we round and set. Sometimes it is close

Pay attention and be mindful

The reason I ask if and how long you were on, what you called, your proper course is that, while you are turning down to your proper course, you have to give room to the port boat. You don't get mark room from them, you are a ROW boat changing course and RRS 16 applies.

If the port boat was really on the port layline and there was no offset, then it's very difficult to get to proper course before you get to that port boat, normally you would have to wait to come down until they have passed. If there is an offset, it's still difficult to establish a straight course in time to give them room to avoid. If you are coming down to them, there best and sometimes only out is to keep going forward.

Remember, even if you are doing a steady turn down, your course is constantly changing when looking at RRS 16. The port taker, according to the RRS, doesn't ever need to anticipate that you will keep turning down, they just need to keep away from your straight course.

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We were on course for about ten seconds. It was right on the edge of the circle 

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You could be racing your Sunfish on Starboard tack when a Volvo around the world boat on Port forces you to give way.  You can protest the Volvo boat and have that boat DSQ'd from its race.

How did this come about? Back in the 1970s, there was a long distance race on Lake Michigan that an offshore boat was racing in, on PORT. He went through a fleet of inshore racing boats and a Star boat hailed "Starboard!"  The offshore boat said they were racing, not against them and didn't have to pay any attention to them.  Then ran over the Star, sinking it, did not attempt to rescue the two sailors and kept racing (the two were rescued by others). 

A protest was filed by the Star boat, it ended up in appeal, which then set the rules making it clear any boat racing must follow the same rules as any other boat racing.

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At WYC we'll often have 120 boats out in 7 fleets. It can get choppy. Boats everywhere, meeting boats from other fleets everywhere.

There ARE cross-fleet protests, but rare. Usually for pure dick-head moves that demand justice, or if you think you might get redress for a total cock-up not of your doing.

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21 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

But anyway, is it ok, or even possible to protest a different fleet?  If so, is it something that's frowned upon?

PART 2
WHEN BOATS MEET
The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near
the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.

 

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Past tense is "bore away"

Knowing the verbiage will come in handy when you do file a protest.

 

Yes, you could have protested them but what would it accomplish if it didn't affect your score. 

You'd be better off to get over it and back to racing your on fleet sooner.

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4 hours ago, TJSoCal said:
21 hours ago, Brass said:

BASIC PRINCIPLES
SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

If YOU think another boat has broken a rule and should be penalised YOU SHOULD

  1. hail 'protest' and display a red flag if required;
  2. deliver a timely written protest;
  3. attend the protest hearing and present evidence and argument in support of your protest.

So the ultimate sea lawyer question: if you witness, for example, a port-starboard violation and S declines to protest, could you protest both boats? P for breaking Rule 10, and S for breaking the Basic Principle by failing to enforce Rule 10 by protesting?

A third party boat may protest a boat for breaking a Part A When Boats Meet rule, and numerous other rules.

Not protesting a boat is not a breach of rule 2. ;No boat is required to protest another boat EVER.

Rule 60.1 says A boat may protest another boat.

Case 142 says The Basic Principle, Sportsmanship and the Rules, states that all competitors, including X’s crew, are expected to enforce the rules, but there is no racing rule that requires X to protest Y ... .

 

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2 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

You could be racing your Sunfish on Starboard tack when a Volvo around the world boat on Port forces you to give way.  You can protest the Volvo boat and have that boat DSQ'd from its race.

How did this come about? Back in the 1970s, there was a long distance race on Lake Michigan that an offshore boat was racing in, on PORT. He went through a fleet of inshore racing boats and a Star boat hailed "Starboard!"  The offshore boat said they were racing, not against them and didn't have to pay any attention to them.  Then ran over the Star, sinking it, did not attempt to rescue the two sailors and kept racing (the two were rescued by others). 

A protest was filed by the Star boat, it ended up in appeal, which then set the rules making it clear any boat racing must follow the same rules as any other boat racing.

I don't think so.

IYRU Rules 1947:  Rule 45. Protests can be made by any competitor against another. (emphasis added).

IYRU Rules 1961: Rule 68. A protest can be made by any yacht against another.(emphasis added).

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2 hours ago, Brass said:

I don't think so.

IYRU Rules 1947:  Rule 45. Protests can be made by any competitor against another. (emphasis added).

IYRU Rules 1961: Rule 68. A protest can be made by any yacht against another.(emphasis added).

It was probably the first time it was brought up, or the first time it was appealed.

At one point it was in the Appeals books, got copies of those going back to dinosaurs?  You'll find it there.

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Any Port tack boat at a weather mark, where there are other stbd tack boats going up and down wind, is sailed by an 1d10T. OK maybe Lunitic is better :) 

 

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28 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Any Port tack boat at a weather mark, where there are other stbd tack boats going up and down wind, is sailed by an 1d10T. OK maybe Lunitic is better :) 

 

I think that's crap, many of the best and winningest sailors I know come in on port layline and find a hole or tack underneath 

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48 minutes ago, SailChiTown said:

I think that's crap, many of the best and winningest sailors I know come in on port layline and find a hole or tack underneath 

But usually they are sailing against the worlds best too.

This thread is about local sailing and local sailing is different.

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10 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

IMO...Racing rules are over emphasis beginning in Opti's or whatever the youth boat maybe...there has been a culture of intimidation  created and that somehow has become thought to be the norm...of course there need to be clearly understood rules and enforced when fouls occur....but to knee jerk...go hunting and intimidating is out of per portion to most weekend sailboat racing

Yep 

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16 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

IMO...Racing rules are over emphasis beginning in Opti's or whatever the youth boat maybe...there has been a culture of intimidation  created and that somehow has become thought to be the norm...of course there need to be clearly understood rules and enforced when fouls occur....but to knee jerk...go hunting and intimidating is out of per portion to most weekend sailboat racing

I dunno, maybe its different where you are, but from where I'm sitting its hard to see too much knowledge of the rules, too many protests and too keen rule observation as being a significant problem for the sport.

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You can protest assuming they are in the same regatta.  If it's different clubs out there running 2 different races that happen to be rounding the same mark then I think it's a rules of the road issue, not a racing rules issue.

If case 1, the reason to protest is to discourage them from doing the same again to you or another competitor in the future.

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^^ Is that true?  I wanted to protest a boat last year from another club that was using the same mark only bcz he was such a dick. A J/120 or J/122 on a reach nearly forced me to collide with a gov't mark, I was close hauled on stb and about a boat length or two from the mark when he came barreling in and clearly was not giving me room. I had to go head to wind and pinched by the mark by inches (current was my friend).  He knew we were also racing I was leading a pack of stb tackers from our fleet and I hailed (yelled) at him. 

At the time I wanted to drive over to the other club and protest, but then I had a beer and realized it was Wed night and the cooler was full. But I will repay the kindness some day I'm sure. He's on the list...

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1 hour ago, bgytr said:

You can protest assuming they are in the same regatta.  If it's different clubs out there running 2 different races that happen to be rounding the same mark then I think it's a rules of the road issue, not a racing rules issue.

 

6 minutes ago, DrewR said:

^^ Is that true? 

No it is not true.

By entering and participating in a race all boats agree to to be bound by the RRS 

Rule 3 ACCEPTANCE OF THE RULES 
3.1 ( a ) By participating or intending to participate in a race conducted under these rules, each competitor and boat owner agrees to accept these rules.

PART 2 WHEN BOATS MEET
The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing.

The RRS provide specific procedures for dealing with protests between boats in different events.

63.8 Protests Between Boats in Different Races
A protest between boats sailing in different races conducted by different organizing authorities shall be heard by a protest committee acceptable to those authorities.

 

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Thx!

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On 7/1/2018 at 5:09 PM, Connor.kainalu said:

Last weekend, we were winning our class, and a guy racing on the same course, but in a different fleet fouled us at the windward mark.  We had bared (borne?) away at the mark and got the kite up, and a Farr 30 from a different fleet was on port layline, and we had to make a major course change to avoid. I wasn't sure if it was even possible to protest a different boat in a different fleet, and even though they passed us downwind, they managed to let us roll them in a smaller boat crewed entirely by teenagers, and we dumped bad air on them for the whole upwind. (It's safe to say we humiliated them)

 

But anyway, is it ok, or even possible to protest a different fleet?  If so, is it something that's frowned upon?

Also, please advise on the past tense of "bare away"

 

1. Yes, you can protest a boat in another division if they foul you.

2. Yes, it sounds like you were ROW boat, provided that you met your obligations under rule 16.1

3. Just because you CAN protest them doesn't mean you SHOULD. In this case, under spinnaker, you probably didn't have to change course very radically. It probably only cost you a few seconds. When dealing with boats from another fleet, sometimes waving them through and making a small course alteration will be paid back to you in spades when you meet again on a future race course.

3. It's a dick move to purposefully dump bad air on a boat in another fleet, even if you think they fouled you earlier.

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7 hours ago, Nice! said:

1. Yes, you can protest a boat in another division if they foul you.

2. Yes, it sounds like you were ROW boat, provided that you met your obligations under rule 16.1

3. Just because you CAN protest them doesn't mean you SHOULD. In this case, under spinnaker, you probably didn't have to change course very radically. It probably only cost you a few seconds. When dealing with boats from another fleet, sometimes waving them through and making a small course alteration will be paid back to you in spades when you meet again on a future race course.

3. It's a dick move to purposefully dump bad air on a boat in another fleet, even if you think they fouled you earlier.

Just about nailed it.

3(1). Remember what we’re doing out here. Often times, it ain’t the Worlds or the Olympics, so an old saying about marriage comes to mind. “Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy”. The idea is to pick your battles. Sure you can be a “rules prick” on the water, but that’s not going to get you any points when you get back to the dock.

3(2). Not to mention, if you focus on screwing this guy you may forget you have your own fleet to compete against. That and it’s equivalent to being the d-bag that tailgates someone for making a mistake while driving on the road.

The question I have for you is you said you were winning your class at the mark, did this incident cause you to lose a place?

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We often sail in mixed fleets on overlapping courses. Often there are these big vintage wooden boats. When one is bearing down on you, my friend likes to say "remember the 1 ton rule". My boat weighs 1 ton and yours doesn't. Stay the fuck out of my way.

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10 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

We often sail in mixed fleets on overlapping courses. Often there are these big vintage wooden boats. When one is bearing down on you, my friend likes to say "remember the 1 ton rule". My boat weighs 1 ton and yours doesn't. Stay the fuck out of my way.

Then a few trips to the protest room might teach them that little boats have paid their entry fees too, and are entitled to their slice of the water and a bit of respect for the rules 

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On 7/1/2018 at 10:10 PM, Connor.kainalu said:

By the time the situation happened, we had the kite up and were on our proper course 

Note: "proper course", although defined in the RRS, does not apply in this scenario.

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13 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Note: "proper course", although defined in the RRS, does not apply in this scenario.

I think OP means to say that they were on a steady course, so starboard tack with ROW and rule 16 turned off.

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5 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I think OP means to say that they were on a steady course, so starboard tack with ROW and rule 16 turned off.

You're probably correct. "Proper course" gets thrown around all the time and is more-often-than-not used incorrectly.

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I find it somewhat strange that there are those that think because they are racing they do not have to follow the international rules of sailing. If you are out there and there are non competitors out there, what do you do? if you are involved with a non competitor, then they will resort to the law. Trying to hide behind racing rules will not work.

If you are in a large mixed fleet, how do you know who's competing and who's not?

As for protesting other fleets we do it regularly, in these confined waters in everything from an oppi to a 40ft broads yacht + tourists in motor boats + non competitors in sailing boats, in a mile and a half of river. 

We also sail down river to a pub and back, that sometimes involves sailing through other clubs fleets.

The video is our regatta week a few years ago, this years open regatta starts  30th July,

 

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On 7/3/2018 at 8:02 AM, Connor.kainalu said:

We were on course for about ten seconds. It was right on the edge of the circle 

Were you on stb or port. If you were on port you may have been the windward boat therefore the give way boat. 

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