Crash

"Perfect" Compromise Boat?

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If Crash lives between LA and Ventura, then unless he's driving to one of those places to berth, that means his berthing options are somewhat limited and cha-chinnnggg expensive.

Channel Islands Harbor has several marina's and YC's in it, but the per foot slip rate is going to be high and I bet availability is tight.  a 32 footer is going to be less damaging on the pocketbook than a 37 footer, though if the 32'er is  $10K more than the 37, that's a whole lot of months of berth rent.. 

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Beneteau First 310 with deep keel. There was one on the west coast for sale for a while. Ticks all your boxes except sprit. Hull is the same as the old Figaro Solo.

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3 hours ago, Alan H said:

If Crash lives between LA and Ventura, then unless he's driving to one of those places to berth, that means his berthing options are somewhat limited and cha-chinnnggg expensive.

Channel Islands Harbor has several marina's and YC's in it, but the per foot slip rate is going to be high and I bet availability is tight.  a 32 footer is going to be less damaging on the pocketbook than a 37 footer, though if the 32'er is  $10K more than the 37, that's a whole lot of months of berth rent.. 

Crash does indeed live between LA and Ventura.  Closes harbors are Ventura, Channel Islands and Marina Del Ray.  Crash is going to visit marinas in Channel Islands next week to get a better feel for cost and availability, so that he knows what he's in for before he makes a boat decision.  From what I can see, there are 2 marinas in CI that have pools, which is a nice amenity, and maybe means I don't need to build a pool in my backyard...

But everything is a compromise and a trade right?

Interestingly, though I logically agree that a $10k difference in price can by alot of months of slip rent, It's harder to think that in 3 or 4 years, I'll have paid more for a slip then for some of the boats I've considered buying to put in that slip.

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12 hours ago, Crash said:

[...]

Interestingly, though I logically agree that a $10k difference in price can by alot of months of slip rent, It's harder to think that in 3 or 4 years, I'll have paid more for a slip then for some of the boats I've considered buying to put in that slip.

Introspection is all well and good, but this sort of clear-eyed analysis can only lead to madness ;-)

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How about some of the San Juan series?  From what I’ve seen, well within your price range, San Juan 30 still looks good, at least, dunno about ratings- FWIW-

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1223

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/why-does-nobody-talk-about-the-san-juan-30-a-153867.html

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Crash, getting into Santa Barbara is next to impossible, so unless you buy  a boat in a slip there, it won't happen.   That Beneteau 310 that was on Yachtworld, in Santa Barbara is now gone, so I assume it's sold.

 

The  Ventura marinas are pretty reasonable, sailing is often "robust" off of Ventura as opposed to most of the rest of So Cal.   There are a lot of boats there and you're a little bit closer to Santa Cruz island there, than from Oxnard.  There are two boatyards, though I THINK that one is currently closed as the City is re-doing the street nearby....but check on that.  I don't know berthing rates but  I know that Ventura Isle Marina promotes itself as a "members only" marina...as in more of a "Club" than a marina.   They don't publish berth rates online.

Ventura West is supposed to be a lot less expensive.  Here's the rate sheet. - http://venturawestmarina.com/slip-rates.html

 

Kills me... I have a 28 foot slip at the Coyote Point Marina, a county-run facility here on the SF Bay.  It is, admittedly, the least expensive marina you'd actually want to be in, on the Bay. For that 28 foot slip I pay $203 a month.  At Ventura West, it would be $100 more.

 

So Crash, buys a 32 foot boat and puts it in Ventura West.  It would be $420 / month.  Over a year, that's  $5,040.

If Crash buys a 37 foot boat and puts it in Ventura West it would be $524 / month. Over a year that's  $6,288.

 

Crash buys a Tripp 33 or SR 33  and dry sails it.  Or maybe an Olson 30 or something like that...MUCH less expensive.

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Here ya go, Crash...little road trip for ya.  https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/bod/d/henderson-30-trailerable/6658435599.html

Not sure the Wife will like it, though.

 

I just checked...It's the Ventura Marina dry boat storage that's closed for a while...not the boatyard.

https://venturaharbor.com/directory/ventura-port-district-dry-storage/

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If it were me, I'd probably do this:  https://ventura.craigslist.org/boa/d/1981-capri-25-with-double/6683421677.html

Or find out if the hoist is a two-ton or a three-ton and if it's three ton, then this:  https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/boa/d/sailboat-capri-30/6683951623.html

Hell, if I lived down there, I'd buy that Capri 30 and put it on a $2500 trailer and dry-sail it.

Or does maybe this sound familiar?  https://ventura.craigslist.org/boa/d/zap-26-bruce-king-uldb/6630346027.html

 

But the wife might not approve of these options, as they are not the best for cruising by any means.  But they WILL keep the cost reasonable...as in well below your threshold and you can race all of 'em.

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11 minutes ago, Alan H said:

If it were me, I'd probably do this:  https://ventura.craigslist.org/boa/d/1981-capri-25-with-double/6683421677.html

Or find out if the hoist is a two-ton or a three-ton and if it's three ton, then this:  https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/boa/d/sailboat-capri-30/6683951623.html

Hell, if I lived down there, I'd buy that Capri 30 and put it on a $2500 trailer and dry-sail it.

Or does maybe this sound familiar?  https://ventura.craigslist.org/boa/d/zap-26-bruce-king-uldb/6630346027.html

 

But the wife might not approve of these options, as they are not the best for cruising.  but they WILL keep the cost reasonable.

If I were shopping in that size, (Capri 25, Olson 25, etc) I might would go with a J-24 as there are already 4 of them racing Wet Wednesdays out of there...

But, to make this work for the family, this has to be a family boat, that the family enjoys being one...so that knocks all the boats like Capri 30s, Pearson Flyers, Santana 30/30GPs, Tartan 10s etc off the list...

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19 minutes ago, Crash said:

Alan,

Just saw a craiglist add for a Bene 305 that is up there at Coyote Marina.  You have any insight on the boat/owners?

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/boa/d/beneteau-first-305-sailboat/6680179701.html

Crash

Right...I don't know these folks, but that's a LOT for a Bene 305. I'll be down at the marina next weekend, I can look around if you like... Oh, it's on Dock 23...I never get over there, that's why I haven't seen it.  I'm happy to go look it over for ya if you want.

Then again, the boat does check off most of your boxes.

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59 minutes ago, Alan H said:

Then again, the boat does check off most of your boxes.

It seems like it on paper, until you get on one and see how tiny the berths are.  The V-berth is very narrow.  I also didn't like the fabric headliner.  I was pretty excited about one that was for sale here (especially because it was listed as the faster fractional version) until I got onboard and also discovered that it was improperly listed and was the masthead version.

I had almost the same shopping list as Crash...

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It's seriously overpriced for what it is, even if it is a nice as the ad implies.  But it does have all the gear to race, even if the racing sails are in the order of 10+ years old, as they are two owners ago...

If you get the chance that'd be great, but please don't go out of your way.  There's a guy up there with a J/109 who's reached out to me as well, so I may be road tripping up there soon anyway.  Grandma and Grandpa live up that  way, so I'd get 2 checks in the box as it were!

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2 minutes ago, Alex W said:

It seems like it on paper, until you get on one and see how tiny the berths are.  The V-berth is very narrow.  I also didn't like the fabric headliner.  I was pretty excited about one that was for sale here (especially because it was listed as the faster fractional version) until I got onboard and also discovered that it was improperly listed and was the masthead version.

I had almost the same shopping list as Crash...

Many years ago, we had it's predecessor, the First 30E...so we are not unaware that the berths are all on the narrower/shorter side.  Plus I'm on the wider than I was 18 years ago side.  Only way to know for sure is to get on one...

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

How about some of the San Juan series?  From what I’ve seen, well within your price range, San Juan 30 still looks good, at least, dunno about ratings- FWIW-

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1223

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/why-does-nobody-talk-about-the-san-juan-30-a-153867.html

Hey Amati,

If I were in the market for a mostly C fleet PHRF beercan boat, something like that would be pretty sweet.  While I grew up racing in the IOR era, I like the later boats, with their wider transoms, then I do the early pintail boats...

But given that we want to use it as a weekend waterfront home on nice weekends (rather than staying out in the burbs), I think the SJ 30 interior is too small to really work...

A SJ 34 might work though

Crash

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 If you like the Nordic 34 the Islander 34 is the same nice design.

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4 hours ago, Crash said:

Hey Amati,

If I were in the market for a mostly C fleet PHRF beercan boat, something like that would be pretty sweet.  While I grew up racing in the IOR era, I like the later boats, with their wider transoms, then I do the early pintail boats...

But given that we want to use it as a weekend waterfront home on nice weekends (rather than staying out in the burbs), I think the SJ 30 interior is too small to really work...

A SJ 34 might work though

Crash

Nice article- the 34’ ~ 130 phrf.........

http://sj21class.org/pdf/clark_boat.pdf

I’m not neutral in this- Dennis built sails for my OK, and my brother was a layup guy at the Kent factory-  it was always fun to race a SJ 30 against an Olsen 30, since they were so different- the SJ upwind, the Olsen downwind.  Always wondered what a SJ 30 (or 34 for that matter) would have been like downwind with an assym, which might get rid of the squirrelly DDW thang- play the shifts, which kind of worked with the SJ24 in the heavier stuff just using the main & 165% Genoa.  One of the crew was a Dragon sailor.... Jibes were fun, but if you didn’t spin out, you were at the front of the fleet ;)

ill leave it at this:

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/48240-san-juan-34-a.html

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If you have only looked at a C&C 34, you might want to look at a 35 Mk III. Much nicer and larger interior and quite a bit faster, IMHO.

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Hey Ish, I'd love too, though right now, I don't see any down here in SoCal to go see...I'll have to keep my eyes open, esp if I get up to the PNW, where there seem to be more of a selection or racer/cruisers than there is down here, at least right now.

Decided to take a closer look at the Tartan 101, so am sending the Admiral over to check it out after work today, have also added the C&C 99 to the list, though the nearest boat is in SF, there are several boats worth looking at up there...

Called a couple marina's in Channel Islands Harbor, as some of them come with pools, and none of the ones in Ventura Harbor do.  For a 35 footer, they're talking $470-570/month...most allow a 3 ft overhang, so might be able to squeeze a 33 foot boat into a 30 foot slip, that knocks the cost to $350-430/month or about $1500 less a year

I appreciate everyone's inputs..even if I haven't responded directly, they've all helped shape the conversation and influenced the decision making process...plus have led to a couple of leads on boats not yet listed which is also pretty cool. So if anyone is thinking of selling their boat, and think it might be a fit, shoot me a PM.

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On 7/3/2018 at 4:02 PM, shaggy said:

Yea, but at 33' you are still paying for a 35'slip, no??  At that point might as well go for a Shock 35 or J35c.  

We cruise our Schock 35. The interior is very large due to an almost 12-foot beam. The aft berth is huge. The wife and I sleep perpendicular in it, and the kid sleeps in the V berth. Cockpit mounted traveler, phrf under 100, and we have stem tacked asym plus conventional kites on ours. Its no Swan downstairs, but it is very comfortable for our family. We came from a C&C 29, and its night and day how much better the Schock is to cruise on.  

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On 8/29/2018 at 3:06 PM, Alex W said:

It seems like it on paper, until you get on one and see how tiny the berths are.  The V-berth is very narrow.  I also didn't like the fabric headliner.  I was pretty excited about one that was for sale here (especially because it was listed as the faster fractional version) until I got onboard and also discovered that it was improperly listed and was the masthead version.

I had almost the same shopping list as Crash...

I had a similar list too, ended up with a First 305. As to space, here were the requirements Crash gave:

As background, I want to both race casually (PHRF), coastal cruise  (Catalina, Channel Islands, Santa Barbara, San Diego), and use the the boat as a weekend retreat on the water.  There are only 3 of us, SWMBO, and a 10 year old boy, but would like room for him to be able to bring a friend.

After a season on my boat, I would say it is just big enough for this, but not much more. We can coastal cruise with 4 fairly comfortable. for more than a night or two, 3 would be better - the v/b is comfortable for one smaller person. For us, its just the 2 of us so the boat has never seemed small. It's a pleasure to daysail though, and we do ok beercan.

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Ok, so we've looked at the Tartan 101  - nice, a bit too race oriented, and for the same money as a J/109, not as comfy down below.  I've also looked at a Ericson 32-200.  Layout down below would work, but would have to move the trav - its not even mid-boom more like 1/3 boom - kinda like having 2 vangs .  The particular boat I was on is currently a live aboard, shows lots of signs of previous water damage, though some of that was being addressed finally, and the new sails dated to 1997.  No spin gear or spin pole present.  VHF was mounted in such a way as to keep the nav desk/icebox top from fully opening.  Geez...

Tried to look at a Pearson 28-2.  Priced right (could buy it and new sails for what I'd consider putting down on a 109).  Looked good in pics.  But its got an accepted contract that supposed to close in the next couple days...Be really nice if Brokers would every now and again, update their listings. <_< This is the 4th boat I've called on that was under contract, and 2 of the Brokers couldn't be bothered to, or never offered to show the boat.  At least the other 2 guys were more than willing to show their boats.

Wife is going to look at a Bene First 36.7 as I type.  We looked closely at them and test sailed one before we bought our new 109 back in 2002.  I also raced on one for 2 years, so am familiar with their good points and bad points.  Still, significantly less expensive (to buy) then a 109 of the same age.

We also went and checked out a couple marinas in Channel Islands Harbor.  Leaning towards Anacapa Isle Marina.  Nice facilities, and it has a pool, which is big when you have a kid.  Close to a good breakfast spot too!

There's a C&C 99 and a C&C 34+ up in the SF Bay, that I'd like to get to see...and there seem to be a bunch more boats that match up to our requirements up in the PNW...

Not in a hurry, but getting frustrated by the quality and type of boats down here...

 

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The J-109 is a lot easier to get out of the water than the others. Also easier to get in and out of the dink.  Nice features at the islands!  And the head has headroom!

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Friends on our dock have a C&C 99 which I like a lot. Some of the interior features are nicer than our 109, especially a reasonable sized salon table. The 109's is too big and in the way even when folded. I have not spent any time in the aft cabin but it looks workable. I like the cockpit on the 109 better.  YW has a 99 close to you listed in white which i mention since lots of the 99's were made with dark hulls and by this point are looking pretty faded.

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15 hours ago, steele said:

Friends on our dock have a C&C 99 which I like a lot. Some of the interior features are nicer than our 109, especially a reasonable sized salon table. The 109's is too big and in the way even when folded.

The Express 37 (and I think the Express 34 kept it) has a nice table that can open up huge if you want to feed 6, or open halfway for smaller family use without blocking access to the v-berth and head.  I love the wide open main cabin and the galley layout, though I know some people dislike the galley sink being under the companionway and over the engine.  It is a very different interior design than the J/109 for a similar sized boat.  It feels a lot bigger and more open, but there is less available privacy.

21 hours ago, Crash said:

Tried to look at a Pearson 28-2.  Priced right (could buy it and new sails for what I'd consider putting down on a 109).  Looked good in pics.

I liked my Pearson 28-2 a lot, but I wouldn't call it performance oriented.  My boat had a 135% genoa, so it rated 198.  We mostly competed against 22-25' boats that weighed half as much and could accelerate better in puffs.  I had decent but not amazing sails, a feathering prop, but not a well prepped bottom and felt good with mid-fleet finishes.  We did win our class once in Race to the Straits, but that race had a lot of drifting...  I do have some great memories of getting the boat doing a consistent 9-10 knots coming down Puget Sound with a 20ish knot tailwind and just the right wave pattern.

What that boat is great for is squeezing a lot of boat into 29', so you can fit into a 30' slip no problem.  It sleeps 2 couples pretty comfortably, is well mannered and sails nicely, and has a lot of built in storage for a small boat.  I spent most of the summer of 2013 on mine and it never felt too cramped.  I also found it very easy to singlehand, even with the kite.  I wish they had made a "tall rig" model with a 1' deeper keel (I had the standard fin keel) and 3 or 4' taller mast.

The middle section of the quarterberth (under the cockpit) can be a bit of a head knocker.

They also made a very similar 31-2 that is 2' longer (for some reason the 28-2 is 28.5', while the 31-2 is 30.5').

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Another update:  Looked at a Bene 36.7.  Not sure why I didn't have that on the original list.  They are significantly less expensive than a J/109, yet meet (exceed) the interior requirements.  No asym.  I looked at them seriously (test sailed too) before buying my 109.  Raced on one for 2 years in Solomons MD.  Talked to that owner (has subsequently sold, then bought 2 other boats).  He wishes he still had his.  Am well aware of Pan Liner/Grid issues and Cheeki Rafki loss and lessons.  Boat we were looking at banged a rock racing the night before we first saw it.  It was hauled with the keel off.  2 bent keel bolts, and hull damage suspected.  I saw potential damage to liner/grid, and hired a surveyor who confirmed my suspicions.  He also found some voids/delams, though can't say if a manufacturing issue or a grounding issue.  I saw a void where the sump was cut out (missing sploge/adhesive), so likely some are manufacturing.  Shared my results with broker, who shared with owner's rep, who got pissed?  So not sure all damage is going to be repaired, not sure I'm interested in pursuing this boat...

Wife is going up to SF Bay area this weekend to visit parents and is looking at J/109, Bene 36.7, C&C 99 and Bene First 310 up there, so we'll see what that turns up.

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9 minutes ago, Crash said:

Shared my results with broker, who shared with owner's rep, who got pissed?  So not sure all damage is going to be repaired, not sure I'm interested in pursuing this boat...

Wife is going up to SF Bay area this weekend to visit parents and is looking at J/109, Bene 36.7, C&C 99 and Bene First 310 up there, so we'll see what that turns up.

1

One of my rules of purchasing anything is that if the seller gives you grief for identifying faults which were not previously disclosed ... run away, fast.

But having seen for yourself how easily the 36.7 can be damaged in a grounding, why is another one still on your shopping list?   Are you one of those lucky sailors who never runs aground? ;)

 

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That's an interesting discussion TL.  Having lived and sailed most of my life in on the Chesapeake Bay, I've run aground more than once or twice, but that's as forgiving an environment as you'll find.  When racing we used to call it "bump" tacking.

Out here in SOCAL, most all the harbors are created with rock jetties.  In this case, there is a well known rock (misplaced during jetty constuction?) right near the entrance that is used as a turning mark on the way to finishing inside the harbor.  Low tide, cut the corner, bang the rock...he's not the first, and likely not the last guy that will do that.

As to the design aspect of the 36.7.  We don't design airplane wings to survive hitting objects.  So you can look at the Bene design two ways I think.  One is that the liner/grid did its job.  Guy hit a rock.  Keel stayed on.  No water leaked into boat.  Liner/grid and hull flexed to absorb the damage (like a car's crumple zone?), and need repair to be back to 100%.

Other way is boat should in fact be robust enough to withstand such a single hit grounding without damage.  That would require more structure and/or a different keel design. That would definitively add cost and/or decrease performance.  As with any and all design elements, there is compromise.  So I think if you (me) were to buy a 36.7, you have to take a much more proactive approach to determining if the grid/liner system has been properly assembled (no voids, etc) and that there is no unseen damage (harder to do, I realize), and recognize the boat is not as damage tolerant as say a Luders 44 yawl with a full keel (the boat I learned how to bump tack on!), so it you do hit something, you need to get the boat hauled and thoroughly inspected by highly experienced and competent surveyors and yard personnel with a mindset that they may well be hidden damage.

I'm not sure where I fall on that spectrum.  So far as I know, none of the Bene 36.7s (over what 800 built?) have lost a keel.  There were a number or signs that were ignored on Cheeki Rafki that I am not likely to ignore (why does the bilge keep filling with salt water?). I have no plans to cross on ocean with the boat.  But I don't want to lose the keel on the way to Catalina Island either. All that said, I've owned plenty of mid 80s racer/cruisers and been perfectly happy with how they perform.  I don't need a boat that rates as fast as a J/109 or Bene 36.7.  But they do meet the Admirals requirements in a way 95% of mid 80's racer/cruisers don't.

"Compromise" was part of the thread title for a reason.  Haven't decided which aspects and requirements to compromise on yet...That's part of the fun, and the frustration with this.

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Just now, Crash said:

That's an interesting discussion TL.  Having lived and sailed most of my life in on the Chesapeake Bay, I've run aground more than once or twice, but that's as forgiving an environment as you'll find.  When racing we used to call it "bump" tacking.

Out here in SOCAL, most all the harbors are created with rock jetties.  In this case, there is a well known rock (misplaced during jetty constuction?) right near the entrance marker that is used as a turning mark on the way to finishing inside the harbor.  Low tide, cut the corner, bang the rock...he's not the first, and likely not the last guy that will do that.

As to the design aspect of the 36.7.  We don't design airplane wings to survive hitting objects.  So you can look at the Bene design two ways I think.  One is that the liner/grid did its job.  Guy hit a rock.  Keel stayed on.  No water leaked into boat.  Liner/grid and hull flexed to absorb the damage (like a car's crumple zone?), and need repair to be back to 100%.

Other way is boat should in fact be robust enough to withstand such a single hit grounding without damage.  That would require more structure and/or a different keel design. That would definitively add cost and/or decrease performance.  As with any and all design elements, there is compromise.  So I think if you (me) were to buy a 36.7, you have to take a much more proactive approach to determining if the grid/liner system has been properly assembled (no voids, etc) and that there is no unseen damage (harder to do, I realize), and recognize the boat is not as damage tolerant as say a Luders 44 yawl with a full keel (the boat I learned how to bump tack on!), so it you do hit something, you need to get the boat hauled and thoroughly inspected by highly experienced and competent surveyors and yard personnel with a mindset that they may well be hidden damage.

I'm not sure where I fall on that spectrum.  So far as I know, none of the Bene 36.7s (over what 800 built?) have lost a keel.  There were a number or signs that were ignored on Cheeki Rafki that I am not likely to ignore (why does the bilge keep filling with salt water?). I have no plans to cross on ocean with the boat.  But I don't want to lose the keel on the way to Catalina Island either. All that said, I've owned plenty of mid 80s racer/cruisers and been perfectly happy with how they perform.  I don't need a boat that rates as fast as a J/109 or Bene 36.7.  But they do meet the Admirals requirements in a way 95% of mid 80's racer/cruisers don't.

"Compromise" was part of the thread title for a reason.  Haven't decided which aspects and requirements to compromise on yet...That's part of the fun, and the frustration with this.

 

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4 minutes ago, Crash said:

As to the design aspect of the 36.7.  We don't design airplane wings to survive hitting objects.  So you can look at the Bene design two ways I think.  One is that the liner/grid did its job.  Guy hit a rock.  Keel stayed on.  No water leaked into boat.  Liner/grid and hull flexed to absorb the damage (like a car's crumple zone?), and need repair to be back to 100%.

Other way is boat should in fact be robust enough to withstand such a single hit grounding without damage.  That would require more structure and/or a different keel design. That would definitively add cost and/or decrease performance. 

4

No, aeroplane wings aren't designed to hit things.  But I think it's a bad comparison, 'cos a)  normal usage of aircraft doesn't include a reasonable likelihood of groundings, as is the case with yots; b) aircraft are very high maintenance items, so expensive fixes are routine in a way that only the most extreme racing yachts are, so major dismantling is less out-of-the-ordinary.  There's a reason aircraft spend a lot more time in hangars than common-or-garden yachts do.

Sure, it'd be nice if single hit groundings did no damage, as was the case with 60s/70s long keelers and many early fin keelers.   And yes, that degree of durability is achievable on a modern deep slim fin only with a lot of v expensive and/or heavy engineering, which the production boat builders show no sign of wanting to do.

But in between the extremes, surely there are boats which can take a grounding without requiring such massively expensive surveys and repairs as those Benes?  

It's obviously highly unlikely that a 36.7 would shed its keel in the ocean.  However, what would worry me is the much higher possibility that a minor grounding could turn into a 20 grand repair bill.  I'd want something where the fixes are cheaper.  YMMV :) 

 

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That makes for another interesting discussion.  I wonder if insurance rates on 36.7s reflect that risk/cost?  As it seems to me the repair bill is an insurance claim, and the cost to the owner is his deductible, (a couple grand at most) not the 20 grand repair cost.  

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45 minutes ago, Crash said:

That makes for another interesting discussion.  I wonder if insurance rates on 36.7s reflect that risk/cost?  As it seems to me the repair bill is an insurance claim, and the cost to the owner is his deductible, (a couple grand at most) not the 20 grand repair cost.  

After a big claim like that, the crunch time is not payout -- it's at renewal time.  After a big payout, insurers have a habit of doing big things to the premium, the restrictions and the excess.

"This boat's light grounding cost us 20K.  Now that we know it's so expensive to fix, we'll stick a 25 grand excess on any groundings".  (And no, I'm not dreaming this up.  I saw it happen to a boat which had a much cheaper grounding repair)

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36.7 might be a nice little compromise, rates level with the Express 37 (or did)

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On a 36.7, one thing you have to watch for on a repair is the tendency to want to "fix all ills."  Beneteau's "Grid and splooge" approach to construction leads to some thin spots and even voids as an acceptable variation in build quality.  Like delams and Inclusions on aircraft structures, there is a level where they are 1 - expected and 2 allowable from a strength perspective.  Perhaps the owner's rep thought you were asking to have a Hyundai rebuilt into a Rolls Royce with perfect, not production quality.  Slippery slope and hard for even a great surveyor to assess.

On early composite tactical aircraft (F/A-18's) every wing panel was NDI's after manufacture and most had flaws that were dispositioned to be allowable for use "as is".  Those records were retained on microfiche and stored.  They were not readily available for reference on an in service airplane.  I did a lot of work on advanced composite repair techniques and a constant worry was minor field damage where the inspection uncovered the flaws that were there since manufacture and required addressing from an engineering standpoint if and when discovered.  Real risk that minor in service damage would require removal or scrapping of the panel based on the difference between how we treated manufacturing flaws and in service damage.  

 

 

 

 

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IB, that's a great point.  I can see looking at an undamaged 36.7 and finding a couple of small voids/delams and recognizing them as acceptable.  The problem here (I think) is determining what is a pre-existing manufacturing flaw (void) and what is an impact delam, as in some cases they both may sound similar to the hammer/ear.  Without more sophisticated test gear and procedures (like we had for composite aircraft) there really is no record, boat to boat, of what was an original manufacturing "variation" nor an engineering analysis to enable a disposition of "strong enough for the intended use."  

The second challenge I can sorta see, is given the above, how does one decide that some amount/number of voids/delams are acceptable from a strength standpoint.  One the one hand, no 36.7 that I know of has lost a keel...so that would seem to indicate the original build quality is adequate for the way the boats are used. On the other hand, I don't want my family to be on the first one that does lose a keel 1/2 to Catalina.  I recognize we are in that risk cube area of 'very low likelihood of occurrence vs. catastrophic consequences" should it occur.  

The last part I'm trying to sort thru is how hard is it to repair the voids (whether an original manufacturing variation or as a result of damage).  Can additional adhesive/epoxy/splooge be introduced to fill the void?  If so, that doesn't seem like an overly complicated or expensive approach.  Or would the surfaces be too contaminated for that approach to work?  And with keel off, and all the floorboards up, there certainly isn't an easier time to repair what needs to be repaired (whatever that might be)...

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

IB, that's a great point.  I can see looking at an undamaged 36.7 and finding a couple of small voids/delams and recognizing them as acceptable.  The problem here (I think) is determining what is a pre-existing manufacturing flaw (void) and what is an impact delam, as in some cases they both may sound similar to the hammer/ear.  Without more sophisticated test gear and procedures (like we had for composite aircraft) there really is no record, boat to boat, of what was an original manufacturing "variation" nor an engineering analysis to enable a disposition of "strong enough for the intended use."  

The second challenge I can sorta see, is given the above, how does one decide that some amount/number of voids/delams are acceptable from a strength standpoint.  One the one hand, no 36.7 that I know of has lost a keel...so that would seem to indicate the original build quality is adequate for the way the boats are used. On the other hand, I don't want my family to be on the first one that does lose a keel 1/2 to Catalina.  I recognize we are in that risk cube area of 'very low likelihood of occurrence vs. catastrophic consequences" should it occur.  

The last part I'm trying to sort thru is how hard is it to repair the voids (whether an original manufacturing variation or as a result of damage).  Can additional adhesive/epoxy/splooge be introduced to fill the void?  If so, that doesn't seem like an overly complicated or expensive approach.  Or would the surfaces be too contaminated for that approach to work?  And with keel off, and all the floorboards up, there certainly isn't an easier time to repair what needs to be repaired (whatever that might be)...

Good questions. I would think that be the surfaces would be too cured and contaminated to get any reasonable secondary bond by injecting in Plexus or the like but I’m a few years away from the art of the possible these days. Based on imperfect knowledge, I’d want to cut out the disbanded part of the grid, prep the surfaces and splice back in the grid with a proper scarf joint but I’m an airplane guy looking to achieve a full strength and fatigue life fix. A good surveyor probably has a different outlook.  Not a repair for the faint hearted and pretty high cost on a used 36.7. 

When did you sail on FC?

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2007-2009.  Great Skipper, great boat, great crew!  I was a WBB guy at the time, my wife was in PMA-280 as Strategic Plans..

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So the Admiral was able to look at the Bene First 310, the J/109 and the Bene 36.7.  Broker for the C&C 99 was out of town, and couldn't arrange with the owner to get her on the boat, so we didn't see that one. 

109 was in great shape...without some of the issues on the earlier 109 we looked at.  "Beautiful" was my wife's comments, and obviously cared for by a knowledgeable and thoughtful owner.

Bene 36.7 was also nice.  It to has suffered a grounding while under the care of a Delivery Skipper. Its had mulitple surveys and $40k worth of repairs (and a 9 page workorder as documentation)....

Bene First 310 really struck a chord with the Admiral, which is a little surprising as it was she who was liking the bigger, newer boats.  I'm headed up there this weekend to look at it and sail it myself.  I'm less familiar with them then I am with the Bene First series that came both prior or after.  What can you guys tell me about the First 310?  I know its based on the Figaro Solo hull, with 6" or so of addtional freeboard.  Down here in SOCAL the only version with a rating is the shoal draft version, and it rates 153.  This on is deep draft, though it also as a wheel and mid-boom sheeting.  I'd prefer a tiller and end-boom sheeting, particularly on a boat that size.  But they also came that way, so might not be too hard to convert to tiller/end boom sheeting...Obviously its performance doesn't come close to the 36.7s or the 109s, but in someways for a casual family race program, being in the middle of the B Fleet, vice in the A Fleet is not a bad thing.  As far as I can tell, B Fleet in the Channel Islands Harbor area seems to run from 111-198, with a couple boats rating in the 147 range...

Has racing sails and gear, but are dated, and haven't been used by current owners.  Standing rigging replaced in 07, inspected in 17 (which is more then can be said for most boats that age).

Thinking ahead to take into account logistics of moving the boat down here should I make an offer.  Boat is in Point Richmond area...anyone know any good surveyor up there?  Also while I have open ocean sailing and racing experience, it was all years ago (35 or so) and in the Atlantic.  I've done numerous transits of the coast from San Francisco to San Diego and back, but that was on the bridge of an Aircraft Carrier, so that's not the same either...so at what point does the weather window close for sailing it down...assuming a multi-day or weeks of harbor hopping.  SF to Monterrey, then to Moro, then to Santa Barbara, then to Channel Islands.  Are there better places to stop in between those?  Obviously I'd want to put together a crew that included some experienced West Coast offshore time.  

Wonder how much to hire a delivery skipper (that won't run it aground), or how much to truck it down here.  Anyone with any experience to share from that perspective?

 

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Crash, we love our Bene 40.7 for what it is and it's enough like a 36.7 that I think some of the same observations apply. It has good performance and can take more than a couple to Catalina for a week or two without us killing each other. OTOH, you don't get all that volume and performance without some compromises. One, the design features a lot of freeboard and a fairly shallow underbody. A crosswind slip with a big powerboat can make docking and undocking very interesting. I was OK in a 50 ft slip with plenty of room but now have about a fender's width of clearance in a smaller sip with a trawler next door. I was single handing quite a lot but not anymore, it got too embarassing. 

Two, the quarter berths are fine but the port one comes at the expense of galley counter space that is really needed to feed everybody conveniently underway. And the curved settees in the saloon look cool but suck as a place to perch with a book or, God forbid, take a nap underway. 

Three, the boat just doesn't steer with the same feel and ease of a J Boat. It takes total concentration when hard on the wind. It's probably made me a better helmsman but it does take getting used to and you can never relax and just steer by feel. I've steered a 36.7 upwind enough times to know it's the same. You sort of hunt for the groove and then find yourself overshooting. I actually use the windex on the mast more than the telltales which is totally backward in my experience. 

Finally, that PHRF rating assumes you can stack beef on the weather rail to make up for being a little underballasted (or overcanvassed). As an elderly couple we compensate by using a smaller headsail even in light airs and we area happy with the result. But you will quickly find the weather helm building in 12-14 kts if it's just the two of you out with a number one or even a two. 

I would suggest you take one out for a good sea trial before committing. All that said, I'd buy another 40.7 in a heartbeat but it's taken me a while to get used to it. 

 

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We brought our 40.7 down to SD from Pt. Richmond in March of 2017. Wind on the nose practically the whole time. Moro Bay is a good place to tuck into and refuel after Piedras Blancas and before Arguello and Concepcion. Then, took it all the way through the Channel Islands toward SD. We were unlucky in that the wind finally shifted to North just as we got to San Nicolas but then blew out the kite and hit steady 30kts, gusting to 36 with all that wind pressure fighting the South swells that had been building in the preceding week. Just me, the broker and my daughter who is an excellent sailor. Boat handled it fine except we were late getting the sails shortened. I imagine a 310 would be similarly capable 

We used Bill Melbostad as our surveyor. Would use him again. Some of the Bay anarchists probably know his company name.

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11 minutes ago, kinardly said:

Crash, we love our Bene 40.7 for what it is and it's enough like a 36.7 that I think some of the same observations apply. It has good performance and can take more than a couple to Catalina for a week or two without us killing each other. OTOH, you don't get all that volume and performance without some compromises. One, the design features a lot of freeboard and a fairly shallow underbody. A crosswind slip with a big powerboat can make docking and undocking very interesting. I was OK in a 50 ft slip with plenty of room but now have about a fender's width of clearance in a smaller sip with a trawler next door. I was single handing quite a lot but not anymore, it got too embarassing. 

Two, the quarter berths are fine but the port one comes at the expense of galley counter space that is really needed to feed everybody conveniently underway. And the curved settees in the saloon look cool but suck as a place to perch with a book or, God forbid, take a nap underway. 

Three, the boat just doesn't steer with the same feel and ease of a J Boat. It takes total concentration when hard on the wind. It's probably made me a better helmsman but it does take getting used to and you can never relax and just steer by feel. I've steered a 36.7 upwind enough times to know it's the same. You sort of hunt for the groove and then find yourself overshooting. I actually use the windex on the mast more than the telltales which is totally backward in my experience. 

Finally, that PHRF rating assumes you can stack beef on the weather rail to make up for being a little underballasted (or overcanvassed). As an elderly couple we compensate by using a smaller headsail even in light airs and we area happy with the result. But you will quickly find the weather helm building in 12-14 kts if it's just the two of you out with a number one or even a two. 

I would suggest you take one out for a good sea trial before committing. All that said, I'd buy another 40.7 in a heartbeat but it's taken me a while to get used to it. 

 

Kindardly,

Thanks!  All boats require some compromise.  The J/109 galley suffers the same issue due to its quarterberth.  I raced on a 36.7 for 2 years, and did a KWRW on a 40.7, and while I never drove those boats during the race, I did spend a fair amount of time driving them to/from the start, etc.  I agree they don't steer with the same feel or ease of a J Boat, and that it takes more effort and attention to keep them in the groove, both by the helmsman, and the main trimmer (who can help a lot if they're any good).  It will be interesting to see how the helm of the 310 is in comparison.  One goal is to turn the almost 11 year old into a both a foredeck guy and a helmsman in the next 7 years of so that I've got him before he goes off to college...

Edit:  Thanks for the info on the transit of your boat and surveyor too!

Crash

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On 9/20/2018 at 12:45 PM, Raz'r said:

36.7 might be a nice little compromise, rates level with the Express 37 (or did)

In PHRF-NW is the Express 37 rates 72 and the Bene 36.7 is 81.  Pretty close and it sounds like both are faster than what the OP really needs.

I thought the problem with the 40.7 style of grid is that you can't inspect the bond between the pan and the hull.  I think it is reasonable to build a boat that can't handle multiple hard groundings at full speed, but it better be possible to do a good inspection afterwords...

alex

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My 405 has a wheel & I've always preferred tillers & have contemplated converting, though 40' is a lot for a tiller.  The emergency tiller drops right down onto the rudder post, so the conversion would be quite simple.  

I found this pic of the swim step of a 310 with wheel steering - I suspect the cover between the two speakers is the rudder post head - so it might be even easier for you to convert to a tiller.  You might even be able to buy the part from Beneteau.  

Interesting set of options you're looking at across a big range of budgets.  You could buy a lot of fresh sails & bareboat charters for the price differential plus the slip fee savings, as long as your wife is happy!  

 

image.png.bc2c892e06d015f75b973799574da013.png

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

So the Admiral was able to look at the Bene First 310, the J/109 and the Bene 36.7.  Broker for the C&C 99 was out of town, and couldn't arrange with the owner to get her on the boat, so we didn't see that one. 

109 was in great shape...without some of the issues on the earlier 109 we looked at.  "Beautiful" was my wife's comments, and obviously cared for by a knowledgeable and thoughtful owner.

Bene 36.7 was also nice.  It to has suffered a grounding while under the care of a Delivery Skipper. Its had mulitple surveys and $40k worth of repairs (and a 9 page workorder as documentation)....

Bene First 310 really struck a chord with the Admiral, which is a little surprising as it was she who was liking the bigger, newer boats.  I'm headed up there this weekend to look at it and sail it myself.  I'm less familiar with them then I am with the Bene First series that came both prior or after.  What can you guys tell me about the First 310?  I know its based on the Figaro Solo hull, with 6" or so of addtional freeboard.  Down here in SOCAL the only version with a rating is the shoal draft version, and it rates 153.  This on is deep draft, though it also as a wheel and mid-boom sheeting.  I'd prefer a tiller and end-boom sheeting, particularly on a boat that size.  But they also came that way, so might not be too hard to convert to tiller/end boom sheeting...Obviously its performance doesn't come close to the 36.7s or the 109s, but in someways for a casual family race program, being in the middle of the B Fleet, vice in the A Fleet is not a bad thing.  As far as I can tell, B Fleet in the Channel Islands Harbor area seems to run from 111-198, with a couple boats rating in the 147 range...

Has racing sails and gear, but are dated, and haven't been used by current owners.  Standing rigging replaced in 07, inspected in 17 (which is more then can be said for most boats that age).

Thinking ahead to take into account logistics of moving the boat down here should I make an offer.  Boat is in Point Richmond area...anyone know any good surveyor up there?  Also while I have open ocean sailing and racing experience, it was all years ago (35 or so) and in the Atlantic.  I've done numerous transits of the coast from San Francisco to San Diego and back, but that was on the bridge of an Aircraft Carrier, so that's not the same either...so at what point does the weather window close for sailing it down...assuming a multi-day or weeks of harbor hopping.  SF to Monterrey, then to Moro, then to Santa Barbara, then to Channel Islands.  Are there better places to stop in between those?  Obviously I'd want to put together a crew that included some experienced West Coast offshore time.  

Wonder how much to hire a delivery skipper (that won't run it aground), or how much to truck it down here.  Anyone with any experience to share from that perspective?

 

Sept till the storms come is probably when the pacific is the most passive.  Shouldn't really be any issue with a well found boat. one absolute must, clean/polish the fuel tanks before you go. A dock queen or even a lightly used daysailer will likely have algae in the tanks, and that stuff stirs up easily at sea.

I used these guys from San Diego to bring a boat from MDR to SF back in April and they charged $2500 + Fuel

 

 

Assen Alexandrov <deliveryyacht@yahoo.com>

 

 

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Thanks Raz'r!  I've learned the fuel algae/bacteria/gunk lesson the hard way in the past, but a great reminder before we go this time....

Also thanks for the Delivery info..

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9 minutes ago, Crash said:

Thanks Raz'r!  I've learned the fuel algae/bacteria/gunk lesson the hard way in the past, but a great reminder before we go this time....

Also thanks for the Delivery info..

Yeah, 5 years ago some buddies brought a boat up and I recommended that several times, they didn't get to it, and limped into Morro Bay with a sputtering engine and several gooey filters.

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1 hour ago, socalrider said:

My 405 has a wheel & I've always preferred tillers & have contemplated converting, though 40' is a lot for a tiller.  The emergency tiller drops right down onto the rudder post, so the conversion would be quite simple.  

I found this pic of the swim step of a 310 with wheel steering - I suspect the cover between the two speakers is the rudder post head - so it might be even easier for you to convert to a tiller.  You might even be able to buy the part from Beneteau.  

Interesting set of options you're looking at across a big range of budgets.  You could buy a lot of fresh sails & bareboat charters for the price differential plus the slip fee savings, as long as your wife is happy!  

 

image.png.bc2c892e06d015f75b973799574da013.png

Right...in some ways it comes down to, if I buy a J/109, I'll be boat poor and won't be able to buy much else.  If I buy a 36.7, I can still do some other stuff to the house or the condo, but can't go crazy.  If I buy the 310, I have lots of options available...maybe even a pool in the back yard :rolleyes:

 

I suspect you might be right about the tiller conversion not being to difficult.  Pics I've seen of cockpit mounted travellers for end boom sheeting show them mounted proud on the bridgedeck, so that might not be too hard either

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3 hours ago, Crash said:

One goal is to turn the almost 11 year old into a both a foredeck guy and a helmsman in the next 7 years of so that I've got him before he goes off to college...

Training up your son is a fine goal.  To do that, it seems to me that you need to keep the loads manageable for the next few years while he is growing, and have a boat which keeps his interest as the teen years progress.  To my mind that points to a small and sporty boat which can race competitively.  The 310 seems to win on both counts: usefully smaller than the 36.7, and competitive in your local fleet.  Plus the smaller size will save $$ which you can spend on keeping the boat competitive

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Legs,

That was kinda our thought and a lesson learned from the J/109 we owned previously.  My 3 older kids (now out of college and on their own) were 12, 10 and 8 when we got that boat.  While they all learned to sail and race on it, and all went on to race after it, the younger two were restricted for a couple years to easier, less physically demanding jobs, while the 12 year old was big enough and strong enough to start out as Mast....and grew into the foredeck guy much faster then the two younger girls grew into roles.  They were able to get much more engaged once we bought the S2 9.1 when they were now 16 and 14.

 

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Here's 2 cents worth:

The sail to Monterey is relatively easy.  From there, you call the harbormaster at Morro bay and ask about conditions.  The next hop is around point Conception, that's where it usually turns mild.  Not many bailout options. 

My OP's boat is a 36.7, and he had it delivered from SF; dunno the cost, but it was certainly much cheaper than trucking (I'll ask who he used).  I was bummed to miss the trip. 

 

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I was told the skipper would be $250-300/day, the paid crew $125-150/day, plus food and travel expenses. In the end I, my daughter and the broker, who had become a close friend, just went and did it as lark ( paid the travel expenses). We spent two days in Pt Richmond getting the boat ready plus had the fuel tank cleaned, the engine serviced, the hull scrubbed and so on plus a day in Morro, seven for the whole trip. But we motored a LOT more than we'd planned with 20 kts on the nose for 3 1/2 of those at sea  days. Four was our original plan. The various forecasts we consulted all concluded the winds would shift to north right about the time we exited the Golden Gate. Didn't happen and you have to plan for that possibility.

Fueling up in the Bay Area is kind of weird; everyone in Pt. Richmond buys auto diesel at the Arco and fuels up at the docks. The nearest fuel dock per se is either Berkeley or Sausalito. In SD if you tried to fuel at your dock you'd  probably get arrested. Pt Richmond's got some of the nicest members you'll ever meet and someone there probably will loan you their jerry cans. And do your shopping for odd marine hardware bits at Whale Point Ace Hardware.  Very cool place. 

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If production boats are being considered Look at a Hanse 400 well built, fast and very user friendly and no I do not own one. 

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6 hours ago, kinardly said:

 

Fueling up in the Bay Area is kind of weird; everyone in Pt. Richmond buys auto diesel at the Arco and fuels up at the docks. The nearest fuel dock per se is either Berkeley or Sausalito. In SD if you tried to fuel at your dock you'd  probably get arrested. Pt Richmond's got some of the nicest members you'll ever meet and someone there probably will loan you their jerry cans. And do your shopping for odd marine hardware bits at Whale Point Ace Hardware.  Very cool place. 

good descriptions!

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Very minor side note but if you go with the 109 it is easy to add a fold out shelf to the galley that is very handy to increase counter space.

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1 hour ago, Jammer Six said:

Where else would you fuel up? At sea? What are you talking about?

Jammer,

I assume what he means is you fill your jerry cans at the gas station, then carry them down to the dock and use the jerry cans to fill the boat's fuel tank, as there are no "fuel piers" and that in San Diego, that practice is officially frowned upon as you might spill a small amount diesel into the bay causing a slight sheen on the surface of the water and not have the proper spill kit to contain it...;)

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15 hours ago, Crash said:

Jammer,

I assume what he means is you fill your jerry cans at the gas station, then carry them down to the dock and use the jerry cans to fill the boat's fuel tank, as there are no "fuel piers" and that in San Diego, that practice is officially frowned upon as you might spill a small amount diesel into the bay causing a slight sheen on the surface of the water and not have the proper spill kit to contain it...;)

Nailed it.

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I'm constantly amazed at the number of sailors and boat owners (boat owners, at least, probably have some measure of financial success or managed their inheritance) who are functionally illiterate, and can't seem to convey basic trains of thought.

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You're blaming your not understanding on a poorly worded post? I understood perfectly. Maybe the static is on your end of the phone.

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On 9/25/2018 at 12:09 PM, kinardly said:

 

Fueling up in the Bay Area is kind of weird; everyone in Pt. Richmond buys auto diesel at the Arco and fuels up at the docks. The nearest fuel dock per se is either Berkeley or Sausalito. 

The fuel dock near Jack London square on the estuary was closed for repairs when I went there last weekend

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

You're blaming your not understanding on a poorly worded post? I understood perfectly. Maybe the static is on your end of the phone.

See?

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I think you have owned one in the past or sailed one - Ericson 33RH. They are old, always need work but sail well in light air, fun boats and a nice interior.

mine has a 50 gallon fuel tank.. don't know why, I think they needed the extra weight...

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I've looked at them several times while boat shopping, and for a variety of reasons, picked other boats.  That said, they've always been on my "short" list of boats I'd like to own.  Not a ton of them around, however, and even fewer out here in SOCAL.  Plus they lack an aft cabin with a double berth, which is a huge plus given that one of the uses of the boat is "weekend" waterfront house.  Plan to race as well, so dockside condo's need not apply.  

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On 9/24/2018 at 12:06 PM, Crash said:

So the Admiral was able to look at the Bene First 310, the J/109 and the Bene 36.7.  Broker for the C&C 99 was out of town, and couldn't arrange with the owner to get her on the boat, so we didn't see that one. 

109 was in great shape...without some of the issues on the earlier 109 we looked at.  "Beautiful" was my wife's comments, and obviously cared for by a knowledgeable and thoughtful owner.

Bene 36.7 was also nice.  It to has suffered a grounding while under the care of a Delivery Skipper. Its had mulitple surveys and $40k worth of repairs (and a 9 page workorder as documentation)....

Bene First 310 really struck a chord with the Admiral, which is a little surprising as it was she who was liking the bigger, newer boats.  I'm headed up there this weekend to look at it and sail it myself.  I'm less familiar with them then I am with the Bene First series that came both prior or after.  What can you guys tell me about the First 310?  I know its based on the Figaro Solo hull, with 6" or so of addtional freeboard.  Down here in SOCAL the only version with a rating is the shoal draft version, and it rates 153.  This on is deep draft, though it also as a wheel and mid-boom sheeting.  I'd prefer a tiller and end-boom sheeting, particularly on a boat that size.  But they also came that way, so might not be too hard to convert to tiller/end boom sheeting...Obviously its performance doesn't come close to the 36.7s or the 109s, but in someways for a casual family race program, being in the middle of the B Fleet, vice in the A Fleet is not a bad thing.  As far as I can tell, B Fleet in the Channel Islands Harbor area seems to run from 111-198, with a couple boats rating in the 147 range...

Has racing sails and gear, but are dated, and haven't been used by current owners.  Standing rigging replaced in 07, inspected in 17 (which is more then can be said for most boats that age).

Thinking ahead to take into account logistics of moving the boat down here should I make an offer.  Boat is in Point Richmond area...anyone know any good surveyor up there?  Also while I have open ocean sailing and racing experience, it was all years ago (35 or so) and in the Atlantic.  I've done numerous transits of the coast from San Francisco to San Diego and back, but that was on the bridge of an Aircraft Carrier, so that's not the same either...so at what point does the weather window close for sailing it down...assuming a multi-day or weeks of harbor hopping.  SF to Monterrey, then to Moro, then to Santa Barbara, then to Channel Islands.  Are there better places to stop in between those?  Obviously I'd want to put together a crew that included some experienced West Coast offshore time.  

Wonder how much to hire a delivery skipper (that won't run it aground), or how much to truck it down here.  Anyone with any experience to share from that perspective?

 

So update time.  Spent a couple hours last Sunday sailing the boat (in light air - a relatively rare SF Bay weekend), and then several more climbing around on the First 310.  Overall the boat and systems are in nice shape, and its been well cared for.  I liked it enough to go ahead an make an offer, which was accepted.  Survey is Oct 16th (yards and surveyors all backed up up there).  Not expecting to find anything surprising, but ya never know.

Current plan is to have it trucked down vice trying to sail it down.  I'm not a big fan of taking an unknown boat offshore and i'm not in a big hurry, so will wait and try to find a empty return/complimentary lift kind of deal...

As no boat is perfect, this one will need some upgrades to get it to to fill the racing side of the equation better:  

 - Has a fixed prop, so will need to get a folding one.

 - Has wheel steering, would like a tiller.

 - Has mid-boom sheeting, would like to move it back to the bridgedeck

 - Couple of the Spinlock rope clutch side plates are beginning to crack around the pivot pins, so they need replacing

 - Dodger canvas is getting kinda ratty, so needs replacing.  Frames look great though can't get as much mainsheet/vang as you'd like without boom hitting on the dodger

 - Basic Instrumentation is there, but not displayed well for racing.  Need at least one more ST 60 style display up forward (only wind shown there right now), but has all the sensors/transducers for wind direction & speed, depth, and boatspeed.

 - Doesn't come with a 155, which I think will be needed down here  in SOCAL - Channel Islands/Ventura area, and other sails are not new.  So will need to build a sail budget and start getting some newer sails.

 

 

 

 

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Get a sailmaker on the boat before you order the 155. Even with the cars all the way back it's a pretty tight fit sheeting angle wise.

Oh and congrats on the boat, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

 

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Will do.  Will have to dig into the SOCAL PHRF regs to see where the "break" is on Genny size vs. credits.  What size fits best?  150? 145?

This one has the below deck furler installed, so I'm already giving up some sail area due to the tack point being almost a foot behind where the headstay would "normally" be.  There is also a second headstay fitting forward of that in the "conventional" spot that would allow a longer J.  Don't know if the existing headstay can be moved, or if it would need a new headstay and foil set up .  (I suspect the later)

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Congrats. Hope the survey goes well. Trucking down might be the better strategy this time of year for sure. 

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Congrats!!!

As you look at fixing her up, one of the benefits (in case you don't know already) of Beneteau is that they are pretty good at supporting their products.  You can pull parts lists online here once you register: http://spareparts.beneteauusa.com

I know the PO of my F405 called the factory about suggestions for slipping rope clutches, and they sent him over a bag of replacement parts (Goiot), free of charge.  Nice!  They stocked replacement keel bolts as well - had to pay for those, but they were quite reasonably priced.  

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One thing to emphasize, do not rely on the Beneteau dealer in the Bay area, Passage Nautical, for anything. I was appalled at the lack of service and support and I bought my used Beneteau from them. On the contrary, if you don't have a dealer readily available to you in NB, I can heartily recommend South Coast Yacht Sales in SD. They are absolutely the opposite of Passage, first class service and support. 

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23 hours ago, Crash said:

Will do.  Will have to dig into the SOCAL PHRF regs to see where the "break" is on Genny size vs. credits.  What size fits best?  150? 145?

 

I went with a 150, but I measured the boat myself so I was somewhat conservative.

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Here's a cool looking pocket cruiser.  Pantanel 25' from Barros.  Like an updated Beneteau 235.  Less than 30' but looks pretty good.

ddd.jpg

dark_ice_1.jpg

img002.jpg

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Well, having not learned with the previous 6 boat ownership experiences, I'm a boat owner again.  Boat surveyed pretty clean, with some issues that need to be dealt with upfront, including the fixed prop is shot (all pink - but was going to get a 2 bladed geared folder anyhow), there's a half dozen good sized blisters (3-5 inches in diameter) to be repaired (but it needed a bottom job anyway), and the valve cover or head gasket is weeping some oil.  Now I just have to figure out how to get it down here from Point Richmond.  Given the issues it has, I'm pretty sure I don't want to make its maiden voyage an offshore trip down the Cali coast as winter is coming on...so likely will put it on a truck.  That will let me get a good rig survey done before re-stepping the rig, replace the prop, and do the bottom work she needs all before it goes in the water....

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.  Most all of the input was very thoughtful and thought-provoking, and helped us come to this decision.

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Crash. Given the standing rigging is probably original to the boat, why not take advantage of he rig being out to replace it? Big part of the cost of new standing rigging is either getting the stick out and back in or the time and labor to do one stay at a time on a standing rig. 

You are a smart guy. Probably could get a rigging shop to match the current shrouds and run them yourself before the rig goes back up. 

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IB,

Standing rigging was replaced in 2007...bit that’s still a good 11 years ago, and all that time in SF Bay, so in salt water and higher winds.  I’m actually most concerned with the Tball ends, as they are hard to see/hidden and the headstay, which is under the furler, so can’t be seen either.  Step one is a survey/inspection, in part because I want all of the rig checked (spreader ends and attachments, sheaves, backstay crane, etc, etc.) not just the standing rigging...

But certainly no cheaper or better time to replace standing rigging than when the rig is down anyway... 1/2 the cost is in dropping/re-stepping the rig...

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52 minutes ago, Crash said:

IB,

Standing rigging was replaced in 2007...bit that’s still a good 11 years ago, and all that time in SF Bay, so in salt water and higher winds.  I’m actually most concerned with the Tball ends, as they are hard to see/hidden and the headstay, which is under the furler, so can’t be seen either.  Step one is a survey/inspection, in part because I want all of the rig checked (spreader ends and attachments, sheaves, backstay crane, etc, etc.) not just the standing rigging...

But certainly no cheaper or better time to replace standing rigging than when the rig is down anyway... 1/2 the cost is in dropping/re-stepping the rig...

From 2007 I suspect it’s fine. T-Balls are pretty durable. I would take a close look at fretting/wear due to the high wind environment but they should be fine.  I would preemptively replace sheaves while it’s down and consider the ball bearing sheaves from Garhauer if the size is available. 

What sort of furler?  Possible to thread a new stay into some while it’s down. 

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

IB,

Standing rigging was replaced in 2007...bit that’s still a good 11 years ago, and all that time in SF Bay, so in salt water and higher winds.  I’m actually most concerned with the Tball ends, as they are hard to see/hidden and the headstay, which is under the furler, so can’t be seen either.  Step one is a survey/inspection, in part because I want all of the rig checked (spreader ends and attachments, sheaves, backstay crane, etc, etc.) not just the standing rigging...

But certainly no cheaper or better time to replace standing rigging than when the rig is down anyway... 1/2 the cost is in dropping/re-stepping the rig...

If you go that route, would you consider synthetic?  I've been contemplating that for whenever I need to do it on my 405.  I like the idea of saving all that weight aloft.  

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Socal...good question.  I'd be interested to see what a rigger might say about UV here in sunny socal...UV is one of the big issues as I understand it.  I also understand that syn rope costs more than wire/less than rod.  If wire is good for 10 -15 years, and syn rope is only good for 5-8 given the amount of sun we get (that's a guess, I dunno), then it would seem to not be cost effective.  If I were cruising around the world, the ease of carrying syn rope as spares might tip the balance.  As a casual beer can racer, while I can appreciate the reduction in weight aloft, I'm pretty sure one or two bad tacks will cost me the same as the weight aloft..so I should work on crew work first...then move to total boat optimization :rolleyes:

 

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

Socal...good question.  I'd be interested to see what a rigger might say about UV here in sunny socal...UV is one of the big issues as I understand it.  I also understand that syn rope costs more than wire/less than rod.  If wire is good for 10 -15 years, and syn rope is only good for 5-8 given the amount of sun we get (that's a guess, I dunno), then it would seem to not be cost effective.  If I were cruising around the world, the ease of carrying syn rope as spares might tip the balance.  As a casual beer can racer, while I can appreciate the reduction in weight aloft, I'm pretty sure one or two bad tacks will cost me the same as the weight aloft..so I should work on crew work first...then move to total boat optimization :rolleyes:

 

I seem to recall at least some claiming that UV wasn’t too much of a problem based on load testing after many years of exposure, but do your research for sure - and please share the results.

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Congratulations Crash! 

Synthetic Rigging on a keel boat is stretchy and prone to chafe and U/V.  Stay with wire.  Allan at SeaTek in Wilminton is really good at it.  His shop has a spar trailer, and they travel around the LA area.  

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Thanks Silent Bob!  Esp the rigger recommendation!

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On 10/16/2018 at 11:39 AM, r.finn said:

Here's a cool looking pocket cruiser.  Pantanel 25' from Barros.  Like an updated Beneteau 235.  Less than 30' but looks pretty good.

ddd.jpg

dark_ice_1.jpg

img002.jpg

A builder made some (I don't know really how many) units in fiberglass down here in Brazil. Pretty boat.

noticia_212_04.jpg

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