Crash

"Perfect" Compromise Boat?

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Moved from East Coas(Chesapeake Bay) to West Coast (Halfway between LA & Ventura) four years ago, selling the last boat when we left.  Finally at a point to be able to buy another used boat, and while I'm a constant boat shopper, and fairly well aware of what boats are out there, I'm hoping you guys can highlight one or two I haven't yet thought of.  As background, I want to both race casually (PHRF), coastal cruise  (Catalina, Channel Islands, Santa Barbara, San Diego), and use the the boat as a weekend retreat on the water.  There are only 3 of us, SWMBO, and a 10 year old boy, but would like room for him to be able to bring a friend.  SWMBO, would very much like semi-private double berth for us, that is not cramming our feet together (real vee- berths), and not have the head in a sleeping cabin (at least not ours). Standing headroom, but tallest of us is 5' 10".  I like more traditional interiors, don't like newer Euro style.  (Slip rates out here are exorbitant, at least compared to Norfolk VA, and every 5 foot of LOA is another $100, so trying to stay in the 30 foot range.  I'd like the trav in the cockpit (i.e. not mid boom on the cabin), like retracting sprits & asyms, but can do conventional chute and poles.  Inboard diesel.  Would like to keep purchase price under $30k, but can go higher for the "perfect" boat.  Like the mid-80s production Maxi-MORC boats (S2 9.1, Olson 911, Santana 30/30, ?), though most don't meet interior desires. Boats I've owned in the past:  J-24, Santana 30/30RC, Beneteau First 30E, J/109, S2 9.1

The "Perfect" Boat would be another  J/109.  Meets all the requirements from a "boat perspective." Has the interior layout, space, asym, and more performance than I need.  Fails on cost. Cost's too much buy, sails too expensive, slip's expensive.

J-97 also quite attractive.  Layout works, plenty of performance, better on size/slip fees, sail costs more reasonable.  Purchase price too high, and don't really dig "euro styled" interior.  Can't find many in the US, let alone here on west coast.

Andrews 28.  Hits on many requirements.  Interior a little small.  Only made 4, so finding one is???   

C&C 30-2.  Hits most requirements.  Has mid boom main sheet & no asym on a pole.

CS 30.  Same as C&C 30-2, but less private aft cabin

Aloha 30.  Same as C&C 30-2.

Olson 911S.  Aft berth might work, but open to main cabin.  No asym

Olson 34/Express 34.  Same as Olson 911S, and more expensive from a sails/slip perspective

C&C 33-2.  Aft cabin/berth maybe smaller than C&C 30-2? Trav in right place,  more expensive from slip and sails perspective

Catalina 30 and the like are too "cruiser" oriented in general to appeal.

 

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What about a deep fin tall stick Catalina 30 with some crisp paper racing sails. They sail better than you would think and are easy to resell.

Good interior layout. 

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The quarter berth on the Olson 911 is decent sized, but kind of a tunnel to crawl out of. I've banged myself up by standing up too quickly a number of times. Like most quarter berths, airflow back there can be limited. I added a solar vent and a port into the cockpit to help. Still need to add 12V fans throughout, but that is more of a Chesapeake issue than a CA issue. 

Asym can be resolved by adding an aftermarket spirit. I like the looks of the Trogear and C-Spirit options for older boats, but have never sailed with one. I know of a guy who put one on a J/30 for cruising and loves it. 

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31 minutes ago, TQA said:

What about a deep fin tall stick Catalina 30 with some crisp paper racing sails. They sail better than you would think and are easy to resell.

Good interior layout. 

I dunno, raced against them in the past on the First 30E.  Out here they rate 174, compared to the Ericson built 911s that rates 129.  That's a pretty good sized difference.  I'm not sure I agree they are easy to resell, because there are so many of them on the market you are competing against a lot of boats...most buyers at that price point see only cost, and not condition/equipment...

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13 minutes ago, Slick470 said:

The quarter berth on the Olson 911 is decent sized, but kind of a tunnel to crawl out of. I've banged myself up by standing up too quickly a number of times. Like most quarter berths, airflow back there can be limited. I added a solar vent and a port into the cockpit to help. Still need to add 12V fans throughout, but that is more of a Chesapeake issue than a CA issue. 

Asym can be resolved by adding an aftermarket spirit. I like the looks of the Trogear and C-Spirit options for older boats, but have never sailed with one. I know of a guy who put one on a J/30 for cruising and loves it. 

Slick, do 911s'  have an opening port to the cockpit from quarter berth?  We needed fans on the 109 as well.  For inport use, we actually got one of those hatch mounted A/C units, which worked pretty good.  Not really an issue out here. 

I agree asym can be resolved (partially) by an aftermarket sprit.  The longer, retractable J/boat style gets you a bigger asym, and looks less clunky (from the outside anyway), but not sure it's worth the cost of trying to mod a conventional boat to a retractable sprit.  Not having an asym is not a deal breaker to me...and like you said, you could certainly add one for cruising...

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I haven't been on an Express 34, but my Express 37 has lots of foot area in the V-berth. There is a ton of room between the forward bulkhead and bow. 

Quest 30 hasn't been mentioned yet but seems to meet all of your requirements. There was a really cheap one in Maryland, but it might have sold by now. 

There are very few options for 30' boat with a good double berth, standing headroom, and rates near 100.  There are even fewer of them for sale.  We were looking for that and moved up a lot in size range to get the Express 37. Slips and sails are more expensive, but we love the boat and having two adult sized double berths.  It is pretty easy to single or doublehand. The interior is bigger and more open than the 109. I really wanted to find an Olson 911 or Express 34, but there weren't any out there when we were shopping. 

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27 minutes ago, Crash said:

Slick, do 911s'  have an opening port to the cockpit from quarter berth?  We needed fans on the 109 as well.  For inport use, we actually got one of those hatch mounted A/C units, which worked pretty good.  Not really an issue out here. 

I agree asym can be resolved (partially) by an aftermarket sprit.  The longer, retractable J/boat style gets you a bigger asym, and looks less clunky (from the outside anyway), but not sure it's worth the cost of trying to mod a conventional boat to a retractable sprit.  Not having an asym is not a deal breaker to me...and like you said, you could certainly add one for cruising...

The cockpit port wasn't standard on our Ericson built boat, but from pictures that I've seen of other boats, it might have been a factory option. If not that, a number of owners have added them. I put one in our boat a few years ago and it definitely helps and wasn't that hard to do.  

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If you are willing to go a bit older there are some good options at reduced cost. A tartan 30 meets a lot of your criteria with a nice traditional interior and better performance and build quality than the Catalina. An Ericson or Ranger would work too, the Ericson 34 is an especially nice boat.

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Take a look at the older Benteau First series. Here’s a 33.7 in San Diego as an example (no affiliation):

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/boa/d/beneteau-first-337/6630091636.html

I’ve got a 405 which is fantastic - happy to show it to you if you’re around. Bigger than you are looking for but if you want space for 3 plus a friend and speed that extra $200/mo in slip fees might be worth it.  A bit more displacement can be nice out in the Pacific swell. 

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Socal -- I walked past this one this past weekend while I was down racing with a friend on his FT 7.5.  I like the older 80's Firsts, like the First 30E we had or your 405.  I'm not a fan of the looks of the mid 90s era Firsts with their rounded off cabins, and esp the 33.7's notched cabin top. The interior does hit on all requirements, and the performance is pretty good to.   Gelcoat on that particular boat is very faded.  Topsides look ok, but sorta neglected.  Plus I think its not the deep keel one either.  No real reason for anything other then a deep keel here.

Steele - totally agree on the older Tartan, Rangers, Ericson's etc.  Issue with them is they don't meet the interior berth requirement...there is no good double berth that isn't a pointy vee-berth, or a pull out double in the main cabin, and the Admiral doesn't want want to make that compromise...and I wish to keep her happy!

Also, I know I will end up compromising on some of the requirements, so even if I sorta push back now, don't take that as I don't appreciate the input, or won't maybe in the end, make that compromise!  Appreciate all the feedback and thoughts.

Crash

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Beneteau 345 if you can find one. Sweet sailor, good aft cabin.

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2Legs, can't get that page to load...but Boy Scout and Retired Naval Officer, so robbing banks might not be my forte.  Long sail home from France to Socal.  What'd dave say, it cost him $90k to get the boat home?  Even if I could do it for half that (smaller boat, less crew, etc) it'd seriously eat into my boat program funding :rolleyes:

Semi, your right, and a First 345 is on the list.  Biggest shortfall of all those 80's First series boats (besides the cast iron keel, which is sorta a pain) is the droopy headliner issue.  Started to have to deal with it in the aft cabin and forepeak of the First 30E, and that was 2002, so 16 years later?  Now if I can find one someone has already done, and done well, that could be a great buy...

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Yeah, I would be looking at mid to late 80's French boats.   Beneteau First 32 has a dedicated aft cabin and the head is on the other side of the boat.   Not sure how roomy that double is, though....  First 345 would be better in that respect but berth rent and haulouts and everything go up...

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

2Legs, can't get that page to load...but Boy Scout and Retired Naval Officer, so robbing banks might not be my forte.  Long sail home from France to Socal.  What'd dave say, it cost him $90k to get the boat home?  Even if I could do it for half that (smaller boat, less crew, etc) it'd seriously eat into my boat program funding :rolleyes:

Pogo is a Breton boat ... so do the crossing Breton style, rather than Dave's luxury style. Navigate with a sextant, use old s/h sails, hand-steer, and feed yourself on baguettes, cheap red wine and whatever fish you catch.  Budget $90 without a k :)

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4 hours ago, socalrider said:

Take a look at the older Benteau First series. Here’s a 33.7 in San Diego as an example (no affiliation):

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/boa/d/beneteau-first-337/6630091636.html

I’ve got a 405 which is fantastic - happy to show it to you if you’re around. Bigger than you are looking for but if you want space for 3 plus a friend and speed that extra $200/mo in slip fees might be worth it.  A bit more displacement can be nice out in the Pacific swell. 

Yea, but at 33' you are still paying for a 35'slip, no??  At that point might as well go for a Shock 35 or J35c.  

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Ohhh, J-35C...No asym, bit pricey, but I like to think of them as a smaller J-44.  I like them alot B)

Hey Steele, I just looked at an Ericson 34-2 on Yachtworld down in San Diego.  Other than slip fees (about $1k more than 30 ft'er a year), it actually hits on all the requirements short of an asym.  Rates 120-126, so almost as fast as an Olson 34, and about as same as the Ron Holland designed Ericson 33 ('82 IOR production racer).  I've raced against an Ericson 35-2 (Sea Maidian) who does pretty darn good with that rating.  Same hull for all intents and purposes.  Humm.....

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I am glad you figured out I meant the 34-2 not the IOR 34. There are two 34-2s on my dock that I have always liked but I have never sailed on one. Perhaps adding a selden bowsprit would be an option.

 

I think Practical Sailor did an article on the 34-2 in the past year or so, might be worth a look.

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I was pretty sure you didn't mean the pintail 34T...I'll look for the Practical Sailor Article.  I know there was also one in Sailing Magazine...

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Doesn't fullfill your wish for an asymmetric, but what about the X-332?

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Mikkel

Neat boat.  Hits most of the targets.  Little expensive (as most all good boats are)...but none for sale in US at this time that I can see....:(

Crash

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Nice!  I like both of ‘em. Don’t know anything about the Delher but sure looks well kept. I’ve always loved the 80s C&Cs which were common on the east coast where I grew up but less so out here.  

I saw a couple of good CS boats when I was looking as well - was really impressed by a CS30 as a well built alternative to the ubiquitous Cat30s but a bit too small for us. 

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I've seen both those listings.  I've always liked the C&C 34, but it doesn't meet the "non-pointy on one end" double berth requirement.  Many really great possibilities get tossed on that requirement.  Might be that requirement has to be modified some B)

The Dehler is a nice looking boat that looks in good shape.  Got a lot of grey, which is not my favorite color when applied to the interior of a sailboat

Interestingly, as I would consider both boats more "race oriented" than the Ericson 34-2, both rate slower than the Ericson, I would guess based on both designs being IOR influenced.

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A J/32 should tick most of the boxes.  PHRF ~114.  Decent, "traditional" interior.

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Sam,

It does tick many.  Would have to find one of the few that came with the quarterberth option, none of the ones on the market right now have it (late model option I believe), and would have to try out the vee-berth, though its not too pointy, so that might work.  From a "casual" racing perspective, they're supposed to be pretty good upwind, but suffer downwind as most fly a 70sqm aysm without a pole.  So smaller chute, and can't plane, but can't go deep/soak well either.  Lots of that can be fixed with a conventional chute approach I'd think.  A J-32 with a masthead asym and a pole could be an awesome family friendly racer and cruiser, but not sure the rig would take that...

 

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The J/32 only had an optional quarterberth early in its run.  Few seem to have taken it - I've only seen one on Yachtworld with one over the last 5 or so years. 

The v berth is pretty wide at the tip - somewhere between 18" and 2 feet.  It is also fairly low - only about an inch higher than the settees in the main cabin, so it's very easy to get in and out of.

Compared to the J/109, it has a better v berth and a slightly bigger galley area.  But it has just a nav table, and usually no quarterberth.

I asked Alan Johnstone last year at the Annapolis show about how long of a deck mounted sprit he would recommend for the boat - he suggested around 4 feet in length.  I haven't done anything yet.

 

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Ahh...early in the run.  I knew it was not a common option..Thanks for the rest of the info as well. Good Stuff!

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Chart of boats vs. Requirements and my arbitrary ratings. Green=Good, Lt Green=Pretty Good, Yellow=Okay, Red=Not so Good

 

image.png.27c4ec3093d5ad9f8983213063973dd9.png

 

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What about a J/29? A little short on the headroom, but the V-berth is HUGE. Traveler in cockpit, extra quarterberth for the occasional guest, PHRF around 114 and dirt cheap.

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Looking at the mostly green options, the price difference between the two J's and the F-345 and the O-34 could make up a lot of those increased slip and maintenance fees. Like 10 years worth...

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You left off the Quest 30 that I mentioned earlier?

Double berth under the cockpit, decent sized v-berth for your son, fast, asym, pretty affordable especially considering that the boats are 15 years newer than most of your list (the one listed now is $59k)

Downside: not a lot of privacy (correctable with some DIY curtains).

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Alex,

I should have said its a work in progress...I'm not done adding boats, I just did the "easy" ones I already knew a good amount about from previous research...

The one up in MA is pretty nice looking...wonder how much to get it moved out here...humm

Crash

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1 hour ago, freewheelin said:

Looking at the mostly green options, the price difference between the two J's and the F-345 and the O-34 could make up a lot of those increased slip and maintenance fees. Like 10 years worth...

Yea, ain't that the truth!  The two J's are on the chart only as they represent the almost perfect boat if you take purchase cost out of the equation.  They are not "realistic" options due to cost unless I win the lottery B)

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When I used to charter more, one of my favorite boats to charter was a C&C 33-2.

Not a modern ultralight rocketship, but a sweet sailing boat that moves well under sail, and would seem well suited to your stated usages.

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Oooh, I don't see the Olson 34 on your list!

EDIT - never mind, it is there.  But another well sailing racer/cruiser that would seem to fit the bill admirably.

http://www.mcmichaelyachtbrokers.com/boat/1990/olson/34/1567/

 

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What happened to the one Olson 34 built by Pacific Yachts?  Is it still out there?  That looks like a special boat at 7500lbs, the Ericson built ones are still very nice but spec at over 30% heavier (10600 lbs).

The Express 34 and Olson 34 look so similar for having had different designers.  I'd prefer the Express design myself just to get the better SA/D (slightly more waterline and narrower beam don't hurt either), but both look great.  There is a nice comparison here: https://express34.wordpress.com/opinions/

There is an Olson 34 next to me on our dock and it is a really nice boat.  The owner said it was the last one to come out of the Ericson yard.  They have it built out for cruising and love the boat.

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6 minutes ago, Alex W said:

What happened to the one Olson 34 built by Pacific Yachts?  Is it still out there?  That looks like a special boat at 7500lbs, the Ericson built ones are still very nice but spec at over 30% heavier (10600 lbs).

Pogen owned it but sold it a couple of years ago.

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29 minutes ago, Alex W said:

The Express 34 and Olson 34 look so similar for having had different designers.  I'd prefer the Express design myself just to get the better SA/D (slightly more waterline and narrower beam don't hurt either), but both look great.  There is a nice comparison here: https://express34.wordpress.com/opinions/

Olson 34 is basically a scaled up Olson 911 which Schumacher designed. So, yeah even though George Olson designed the 34, it's not a big surprise the Olson 34 looks a lot like the Express line. Call it a half sister. 

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Bob Fleck's Olson 911 Mad Hatter is just a terror on the Chespeake Bay in PHRF B.

I like both the Express's and the Olson's...choices, so many choices to make...:rolleyes:

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Yeah, my wife wasn't happy when we heard Bob had bought his 911. She had raced against him on S2 7.9s and watched him clean up and knew he'd do the same with the 911. Ultimately, we've been too busy racing on OPBs and having little kids to race ours, so it hasn't mattered. 

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This boat has been listed like this for at least two years now. I doubt it is a creampuff.

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On 7/3/2018 at 9:50 PM, TwoLegged said:

Pogo is a Breton boat ... so do the crossing Breton style, rather than Dave's luxury style. Navigate with a sextant, use old s/h sails, hand-steer, and feed yourself on baguettes, cheap red wine and whatever fish you catch.  Budget $90 without a k :)

I agree except that you forgot the pâté Hénaff. Breton boats need some to function properly.

234eaca5-7683-d826-fdf9-a6ec52c30782.jpg

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Doesn't the First 30E suits your requirements?

I personally think that 9ish metres is a good choice for this kind of program. These boats are still easy to sail, not too expensive to maintain and reasonably comfortable.

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Pana, its close, and the follow on 305 is closer still.  I agree on the 9ish meter size is about right.  Must be why I've owned 3 so far...

Biggest issue on them is most still have the original black foam backed vinyl head and hull liners, which are all now falling off.  Its something of a time consuming, messy job to get them down and cleaned to bare fiberglass.  Then need to decide how to refinish to make look good (depends on what "good" is)

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The liner is a real downside on the 305. Mine had already been stripped to bare fiberglass in the V and quarter berths. The main area (saloon?) looks fine, but it is sagging a bit over the nav station and the stove. It really bugged me at first, but I have been told is a huge and messy project. In the meantime, I propped the sagging sections up with some spare batten material that was about the same color that kind of snapped them into place. Honestly, I had forgotten about them until just now.

So I guess it really does depend on what "good" is. I am now not sure I want to go through the hassle of ripping them out, provided the quick fix keeps looking fine. I don't think anyone on our boat has realized yet it is an issue.

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I agree except that you forgot the pâté Hénaff. Breton boats need some to function properly.

234eaca5-7683-d826-fdf9-a6ec52c30782.jpg

French Spam! Who knew?

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I was in Paris about two months ago. And let me give you a warning if you're going over there; here's an example: chapo means hat. Ooof means egg. It's like those French have a different word for everything. You never appreciate your language until you go to a foreign country that doesn't have the courtesy to speak English.

-Steve Martin

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There were more than a few C&C 30-2's that left the factory with bridgedeck travellers.  Not end boom sheeting but better than the forward cabintop.

Then there's the C&C 34+.  Ticks all the boxes, like most C&C's hard to sail to it's rating (sub 100), and even at a decent hagglers price double your budget.  But sweet boat to sail.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/C%26C-34-Plus-3016129/Anacortes/WA/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.W0TlH7iQyCg

 

There's an inmate here who has one (zzrider?) and seems to like it.

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19 hours ago, monsoon said:

French Spam! Who knew?

Not Spam, it's made from real pork bits.

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The 30E has a really narrow V-berth, sails in a class that isn't as competitive around here, and has that annoying headliner.  It was a pretty easy boat for me to skip when I was shopping.

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2 hours ago, Dilligaf0220 said:

There were more than a few C&C 30-2's that left the factory with bridgedeck travellers.  Not end boom sheeting but better than the forward cabintop.

Then there's the C&C 34+.  Ticks all the boxes, like most C&C's hard to sail to it's rating (sub 100), and even at a decent hagglers price double your budget.  But sweet boat to sail.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1991/C%26C-34-Plus-3016129/Anacortes/WA/United-States?refSource=standard listing#.W0TlH7iQyCg

 

There's an inmate here who has one (zzrider?) and seems to like it.

Didn't know that about the 30-2 Dill, thanks!  I had been thinking about which boats on the list might be easily modded to bridgedeck  or cross cockpit traveler location.  The fact that some 30-2's came that way might mean they are easier to mod.  I always wonder on the athwartship berths how you get in and out of the aft side.  Roll?  Crawl in along the pillow end then lay out?  What about when there are two sleeping?  Seems you kinda have to either crawl over, or both get up.  But every aft berth/cabin I can afford has some measure of climbing involved in getting in to or out of ....

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3 minutes ago, Crash said:

I always wonder on the athwartship berths how you get in and out of the aft side. 

I sleep in the aft side on our boat.  Yeah, I just crawl in, it really isn't a big deal.  It is better than the alternative where one person is fully under the cockpit in a coffin like space (that is how my previous boat was setup).  It looks like the C&C 30-2 uses the coffin approach.

The only downside of sleeping there is that little wavelets can make a lot of noise when hitting the acute angle between the water and hull.  I didn't hear this on my cruising-oriented Pearson because the reverse transom was almost right at the waterline.  On the Express it sits higher (so that there is a lot less turbulence when sailing), but at rest that means you get this area that wavelets get stuck in and make a lot of noise.  The C&C 30-2 transom knuckle appears to be a bit higher (more like the Express, less like the Pearson) and it might suffer from the same problem.

 

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Some seasoned sailors prefer an athwartships berth.

That's because some of us can('t) stand to lie down. (Ducking)

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Hey Bob...I don't believe I've ever slept in one.  But as we are creatures of habit, and I always sleep to the right of my wife, on boat where the "headboard" is to port, means the old guy who has to get up a pee once or twice a night has to figure a way to do that without falling on her.  I'm sure it can be done, and may well be worth it, depending on the boat...

If I bump the budget to the C&C 34+ level, then I can consider the Nordic/Islander 34 as well, but they are hard to find on the market...

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Keep in mind that the C&C 34+ is almost a 36 foot boat...  

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I want to thank everyone who's responded/contributed to date.  We are off on a 3 week trip, 1st to inter my folks back in the town in NY we grew up in, then down to our condo in the Blue Ridge Mts for a week, then a week in DC, and a week in Costa Rica.  Not sure how much I'll be able to check in here (CA in general), but the Admiral and I will be doing a fair amount of talking and noodling over all the input you guys have given me so far...it really has been quite valuable, and I appreciate all of it.  

Very Respectfully,

Crash

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Crash:

The I-34/Nordic 34 is a fabulous sailing boat, one of my best. I'd look for the Islander version. It's lighter.

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Sadly there is a Islander/Nordic 34 on my dock that has not moved in years. The mold has made it more green than white, I have no idea what the interior is like, and don't really want to find out.

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On 7/10/2018 at 7:51 PM, IStream said:

Yeah but paté Hénaff is just the dog's bollocks especially if you are cold and wet.

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Hey, Crash, something to think about: I was also adamant I wanted my main traveler across the cockpit in front of the helm so I could play it when sailing short handed but now I think my old bridge deck traveler Yamaha 33 was a better short handed arrangement. I have to climb over the damned thing to tack the headsail and then race back to the helm. The solution is to remove the cockpit seats lockers and relocate the traveler to the cockpit sole but I hate to give up those lockers. 

In your size range a tiller equipped boat with bridge deck traveler might be the ticket. 

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Yeah but paté Hénaff is just the dog's bollocks especially if you are cold and wet.

Spam is incredibly popular in Hawaii. Pate for the hot and humid palate.

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1 hour ago, kinardly said:

Or end boom sheeting across the transom-_-

Or a good autopilot.

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Thanks Sam.

 

I'll be at the Sausalito YC this Sunday afternoon for a presentation and book signing. I'll sign any book.

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Noticed your rated the O-34 negative because it requires a mod in order to carry an assy.  Totally agree that it should be converted, but it isn't that difficult and doesn't have to be expensive.  I converted about 7 years ago and love it.  We've had our boat for about 10 years, moved it up to Mystic CT from the southern Ches (HYC) and have no plans to move up.  It's a great cruiser for the two of us and a competitive racer with a couple crew.

1633087032_ProfileCropmini.thumb.JPG.b312a66996d5c28736d01b2562cd9037.JPG

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On 7/6/2018 at 3:54 PM, Crash said:

Chart of boats vs. Requirements and my arbitrary ratings. Green=Good, Lt Green=Pretty Good, Yellow=Okay, Red=Not so Good

 

image.png.27c4ec3093d5ad9f8983213063973dd9.png

 

Crash , thanks for posting this, look forward to seeing your finished chart. Would like to see your work-up of the J/33, J/35, J/120, Express 37,

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:54 PM, Crash said:

Chart of boats vs. Requirements and my arbitrary ratings. Green=Good, Lt Green=Pretty Good, Yellow=Okay, Red=Not so Good

 

image.png.27c4ec3093d5ad9f8983213063973dd9.png

 

I still don't get what you guys call "Euro "? Is it the layout, the lack of wood?

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Pano, 

Yeah kinda...Euro to me is rectilinear, IKEA like. Cabinets and shelves are modular, prebuilt units with “useless” blank space above. Priority is on space, light, and airiness at the dock. Layout is prioritized towards “living” space. Sleeps 1, 2 or maybe 3 couples in the same number of cabins...

kinda like this:

Traditional is build in cabinetry, smaller spaces, emphasis on good sea berths and being able to sleep greater than half the crew at sea. Kinda like this:

I had a friend with a Jeanneau 42i Performance version.  It could sleep 4 if couples, or less at sea as the curved settees didn’t make great berths.  My old S2 9.1, which was only 30 ft could sleep an honest 7 folks, only 2 of which need to be a couple....

Euro isn’t bad, nor is traditional better. I happen to like traditional better, so to me, I like a more traditional “offshore” more woody layout better.   Other folks like a more more open airy layout. It’s all about the art of the compromise....

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On 7/10/2018 at 11:57 PM, Bob Perry said:

Some seasoned sailors prefer an athwartships berth.

We turned our 26 foot 6’6” beam boat into a shag palace by sleeping sideways: a simple infill did the job. I slept aft so I could pee from the cockpit, she slept forward so she had a private head. 

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Mr. Ed:

When I chartered a CT54 in the BVI's the aft berth was big enough so you could sleep either longitudinally or athwartships. Can't recall which way we slept. We slept well.

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13 hours ago, Crash said:

Pano, 

Yeah kinda...Euro to me is rectilinear, IKEA like. Cabinets and shelves are modular, prebuilt units with “useless” blank space above. Priority is on space, light, and airiness at the dock. Layout is prioritized towards “living” space. Sleeps 1, 2 or maybe 3 couples in the same number of cabins...

kinda like this:

 

Traditional is build in cabinetry, smaller spaces, emphasis on good sea berths and being able to sleep greater than half the crew at sea. Kinda like this:

 

I had a friend with a Jeanneau 42i Performance version.  It could sleep 4 if couples, or less at sea as the curved settees didn’t make great berths.  My old S2 9.1, which was only 30 ft could sleep an honest 7 folks, only 2 of which need to be a couple....

Euro isn’t bad, nor is traditional better. I happen to like traditional better, so to me, I like a more traditional “offshore” more woody layout better.   Other folks like a more more open airy layout. It’s all about the art of the compromise....

I get it, it is a bit of misnomer IMO though before marketing department discovered that "airy sells", European boats had smaller spaces and woody interiors.

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Pano, your right, Europe is the home to many traditional older designs...I just think the big builders, Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hanse, etc, discovered “airy space” sells long before the US builders did...so they lead the change, and therefore I associate that style to them...

i don’t really even mean to use term in a negative manner, only has a style choice that I don’t care for...though obviously, many do

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I found the Bene 47 quad cabin to be quite fit for an '8 days a week' charter for 7 people. 

If I were to generalize the 'Euro style' of Bene/Jeanneau/Hanse, (among other things) one thing I'd note is that the late models seem to have quite a high freeboard compared to more 'traditional' boats of yesteryear. Probably a 1 1/2foot or so difference at around 40-47 ft length.

This was quite noticeable when someone pulled up to the slip next to me a couple years ago in a Hanse 40 something. Big step up and down off the dock,  and the thing had windage on the bow close to an open 60(ok maybe a slight exaggeration). Was not impressed that it came out of the box with a furling system that could not be wrapped properly with the hard clew-board.

But hey, life would be boring if those were the only boats to talk about and there's more going on in Europe than the 'plain ol same ol'.

so how about this perfect compromise cappuccino cruiser with a bit of Euro flair?

https://www.worthavenueyachts.com/yachts-for-sale/mandrake/

 

 

 

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Heh I always thought "Euro style galley" was everything lined up amidships down one side of the cabin.

Ofcourse I always pictured in Europe it was being touted as an "American Style" galley...

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15 hours ago, Dilligaf0220 said:

Heh I always thought "Euro style galley" was everything lined up amidships down one side of the cabin.

Ofcourse I always pictured in Europe it was being touted as an "American Style" galley...

Yes, in French we call this American galley.

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My impression was that for boats less than 30 feet, Euro-style meant shrinking the v-berth to a size only good for storage, and moving the seats and permanent table far forward. I say "seats" because they not not very good for sleeping.

LIke the Jeanneau Fantasia 27:

 

 

2018-07-21_1357.png

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31 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

My impression was that for boats less than 30 feet, Euro-style meant shrinking the v-berth to a size only good for storage, and moving the seats and permanent table far forward. I say "seats" because they not not very good for sleeping.

LIke the Jeanneau Fantasia 27:

 

 

2018-07-21_1357.png

5894648_20160804053146121_1_XLARGE.jpg

It looks like the divider between the v-berth and settees can be removed, expanding the v--berth to a normal size.

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that is funny, I always thought of this kind of layout as American, since I had only seen it on Pearsons and Hunters

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1 hour ago, freewheelin said:

that is funny, I always thought of this kind of layout as American, since I had only seen it on Pearsons and Hunters

Maybe it's just the result of moving the head aft.

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Semi, I think that started the trend, though I would call a J/109’s interior “traditional” and it has an aft head...and I would call the J/97’s layout more “Euro”...and the newest Beneteau’s, Hanse’s etc totally Euro...

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Hey nice find Slick! Agree the wheels a little weird, and have to wonder what the sail inventory is like given it’s “never been raced”

But it looks like it’s in decent shape, in the pics anyway

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