MauiPunter

Beta Marine vs Nanni Marine

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I'm starting to investigate repowering and am looking at Beta and Nanni.  I've never heard of Nanni before but apparently they have been around for quite a while.  Does anyone have any strong feelings for or against either option on the market?  They are both based on the kubota engine.  I'm specifically looking at the Beta 60 and the Nanni N4.60 with the V-Drive transmission.  Pricing seems similar too.  Both around $15k for the engine, 120 amp Alternator, 15' harness and control panel, exhaust elbow, and propeller shaft coupling.   Marblehead Trading Company was recommended for the installation.

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I'd pick Beta. Heard good things about their support and dealer network.

Nanni has been around for a long time, but well, they're French...

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either or, Beta has a heavier flywheel 

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9 hours ago, Moonduster said:

Why not Yanmar?

The Beta and Nanni seem to fit my footprint better. I'll take another look at Yanmar but I believe its a larger engine for the same HP.

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9 hours ago, Gutterblack said:

either or, Beta has a heavier flywheel 

What does the heavier fly wheel get you?   More torque?

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Foot print is certainly different. I ask because the dealer network for Yanmar is bigger and that is likely the #1 consideration for most re-power projects.

Nanni engines are popular in Europe. Both Nanni and Beta continue to push to make inroads in the USA. The fundamentals of both are sound as it's just a small tractor engine. The marinization of each (and Yanmar and others) is less than ideal in various ways.

Check closely that you understand your alternator upgrade path and whether a serpentine belt is an option, either at the time of purchase or as an after market upgrade. Compare replacement parts costs for a starter, a raw water pump and a fresh water pump. Take a good look at oil change options including provision for remote oil filter and sump drain access. Understand filter sources for both oil and fuel.

A larger flywheel has no effect on torque. It may reduce torsional vibration, which is good for your transmission. It usually makes the installation quieter and eliminates some of the vibrations that get transmitted through the mounts to the hull. Otherwise, it's not that important for the kind of loads that a propeller presents.

 

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Dont know about Nanni, but loved my Beta.  Great after sale service and designed to be serviced easily. 

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Beta will give you the Kubota parts number list. When my Perkins dies, that's what will likely replace it. 

 

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2 hours ago, Elegua said:

Beta will give you the Kubota parts number list. When my Perkins dies, that's what will likely replace it. 

 

Is this unavailable with Nanni?

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3 hours ago, Moonduster said:

Foot print is certainly different. I ask because the dealer network for Yanmar is bigger and that is likely the #1 consideration for most re-power projects.

Nanni engines are popular in Europe. Both Nanni and Beta continue to push to make inroads in the USA. The fundamentals of both are sound as it's just a small tractor engine. The marinization of each (and Yanmar and others) is less than ideal in various ways.

Check closely that you understand your alternator upgrade path and whether a serpentine belt is an option, either at the time of purchase or as an after market upgrade. Compare replacement parts costs for a starter, a raw water pump and a fresh water pump. Take a good look at oil change options including provision for remote oil filter and sump drain access. Understand filter sources for both oil and fuel.

A larger flywheel has no effect on torque. It may reduce torsional vibration, which is good for your transmission. It usually makes the installation quieter and eliminates some of the vibrations that get transmitted through the mounts to the hull. Otherwise, it's not that important for the kind of loads that a propeller presents.

 

 

Ok.   Great advice.   Not sure if you are from New England area but who are the Yanmar repower specialists?  I'd like to connect with them to go over it in more detail.   

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5 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Is this unavailable with Nanni?

I think for most engines you can do some gumshoe work and find them, but Beta will give you them.

"Beta Marine engines are marinized Kubota engines. We are happy to offer Kubota service part numbersfor routine replacement parts including oil filters, fuel filters, V belts, air filter, etc. Engine parts are available through us or you can readily find what you need at most auto parts stores or Kubota dealers -world wide."

That's a huge support base. Of course you still need the marinized parts from Beta. 

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In NZ re small yacht engines, Yanmar is probably the most respected brand most likely based on their many years of being in the market and extensive dealer backup, biggest downside is cost of parts- eyewatering. Modern Volvo is good and so is virtually any make including Lombardini,  Nanni and Kubota. The fact is that any new brand name motor is going to provide years and years of trouble free service so it does not really matter what you buy. If I was looking for a lightweight setup then I would consider Lombardini, otherwise if money was no object I'd go Yanmar.

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My boat neighbor re-powered his Freedom 28 a couple years ago with a Beta two cylinder that was installed professionally.  He’s been generally happy with the engine, but has had vapor lock issues, including again last week when it was very hot and humid. Probably more specific to the installation than the motor however...

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Replaced a Perkins 4-108 with a Beta 50, with the high output alternator and a serpentine belt.  Have been very happy with the engine - easy to service - change air, oil and fuel filters, and to change the oil.  It is quieter than comparably sized Yanmars, and very smooth running.  

You can get the filters online from Amazon or from Beta.  The impeller and zinc are standard items which again you can get on line or from Bets.  I have found Beta to be cheaper than others on some of these parts.

Have been very happy with the engine, Beta customer service and parts availability and cost.

 

 

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How do you get vapor lock with a diesel?!! Diesel doesn't vaporize like gasoline. Might want to shop for a new mechanic if it was a mechanic that suggested that.

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If you want light weight, try FNM. They get 110HP from a 200kg engine with a similar foot print to 60HP engines from other manufacturers. This is the engine of choice in the Maxi 72 fleet.

While I agree that you'll get a dozen easy years out of a new diesel auxiliary, I'd suggest that begins when the hour meter says 10, not when it says 0. New installations are often difficult to sort out and dealer support can be important when there are starting, cooling, exhaust back pressure or torsional vibration problems.

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1 hour ago, Moonduster said:

If you want light weight, try FNM. They get 110HP from a 200kg engine with a similar foot print to 60HP engines from other manufacturers. This is the engine of choice in the Maxi 72 fleet.

While I agree that you'll get a dozen easy years out of a new diesel auxiliary, I'd suggest that begins when the hour meter says 10, not when it says 0. New installations are often difficult to sort out and dealer support can be important when there are starting, cooling, exhaust back pressure or torsional vibration problems.

Looks intriguing but there is like zero support in the US for this engine.  Bummer.

 

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51 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

There's a distributor. Support isn't awful. I can find them if you're interested.

I would be.  Thank you.

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7 hours ago, Moonduster said:

If you want light weight, try FNM. They get 110HP from a 200kg engine with a similar foot print to 60HP engines from other manufacturers. This is the engine of choice in the Maxi 72 fleet.

While I agree that you'll get a dozen easy years out of a new diesel auxiliary, I'd suggest that begins when the hour meter says 10, not when it says 0. New installations are often difficult to sort out and dealer support can be important when there are starting, cooling, exhaust back pressure or torsional vibration problems.

Trying to figure out why a Morgan Nelson Merck 454 would need, much less use, 110 hp. I can understand why the Maxi 72 fleet would like it.  By the way, I got 30 years our of my Perkins 4-108.

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A good friend had a Beta 2 cylinder diesel "professionally installed" as well.  The engine was not mounted flat, but rather sloped to the stern.  The fill for the heat exchanger was on the low end.  He had coolant troubles right off the bat.  Stanley from Beta met us mid cruise to problem solve and spotted the issue immediately.  Perhaps that's what you meant by vapor lock?  No problems since, in 10 years.

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26 minutes ago, CCruiser said:

Trying to figure out why a Morgan Nelson Merck 454 would need, much less use, 110 hp. I can understand why the Maxi 72 fleet would like it.  By the way, I got 30 years our of my Perkins 4-108.

My target HP is 55-65HP.

My boat fully loaded with all tanks full and all our shit aboard, weighs in around 25,000lbs = 12.5T

I think there is some rule of thumb of 4-5HP per ton. So, 60HP seems right in the middle.

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FNM has an 80 horse model.

US Distributor - 

MOTOR-SERVICES HUGO STAMP

USA- CARIBBEAN-EASTERN MEXICO-EASTERN CANADA

3190 SW 4TH Avenue Ft. 33315 FT. LAUDERDALE - USA

+ 1 954-763-3660 + 1 954-713-0435

enginesales@mshs.com

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The 80 and 110hp motors are built on the same block, the difference is the turbo and the software.

To choose between, you need to look at the specific fuel consumption numbers and do some math.

 

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5 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

My target HP is 55-65HP.

My boat fully loaded with all tanks full and all our shit aboard, weighs in around 25,000lbs = 12.5T

I think there is some rule of thumb of 4-5HP per ton. So, 60HP seems right in the middle.

Our boat fully loaded is comparable in size and weight - 46' and 26,000 lbs.  We chose the 60 because it fit the space we had, and increased the horsepower substantially over the 4-108.  If you can fit the 60, all the better, will use some more fuel, but should push the boat along nicely.  The 50 pushes ours at 7 knots at 2800 rpm, but we normally rum at 2200 rpm, use 3/4 gallons per hour, and get along at 5-6 knots.  

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1 hour ago, CCruiser said:

Our boat fully loaded is comparable in size and weight - 46' and 26,000 lbs.  We chose the 60 because it fit the space we had, and increased the horsepower substantially over the 4-108.  If you can fit the 60, all the better, will use some more fuel, but should push the boat along nicely.  The 50 pushes ours at 7 knots at 2800 rpm, but we normally rum at 2200 rpm, use 3/4 gallons per hour, and get along at 5-6 knots.  

Nice.  My boat currently has a 30 year old Universal M40 which actually puts out 32HP. So underpowered that we can barely just break 5kts at 2500 RPM and no headwind or waves.  Any higher RPM and the engine starts to overheat.  

I suppose I've learned to be a better pilot having to finesse the boat in tight spaces knowing there isn't enough power to stop her at a moments notice.  

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Sorry, meant we installed the 50, not the sixty - largest that would fit in the space, and the feet lined up with the existing engine bed.  

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Whoa. FNM gets 129 HP from a 1.3L turbo diesel.  Yanmar gets 125 HP from a 2.0L turbo diesel. A Volks Golf 1.6L diesel is 115 HP. But car engines see much lower load conditions (how long do you drive with your engine at 85% of redline?) and have a very easy life compared to a boat diesel.

I would not expect the FNM to have a long and happy life. That is one little hot rodded engine. If you're a Maxi owner and have to replace it every few years it's lost in the noise. If you're an average sailor I'd stay clear.

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10 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Nice.  My boat currently has a 30 year old Universal M40 which actually puts out 32HP. So underpowered that we can barely just break 5kts at 2500 RPM and no headwind or waves.  Any higher RPM and the engine starts to overheat.  

I suppose I've learned to be a better pilot having to finesse the boat in tight spaces knowing there isn't enough power to stop her at a moments notice.  

For reference,  i have 27K of boat,  42 ft Albin Nimbus,  and I have the 50HP Yanmar  4JH3E with a Martec 3 blade feathering.  I was lucky and got the prop dialed in pretty perfectly to the engine and she pushes the boat along well in any condition really.  I keep the prop and bottom very clean which helps.  The newer model from mine,  I think its the 4JH4 series, is quieter,  came out just as I installed mine in 2006 I guess.  YMMV

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My 35,000lb 50'er came from the factory with a 75hp naturally aspirated Yanmar but the PO repowered with the turbo/intercooled version with 100hp. I'd gladly give up the extra 25hp (which I never use) for the smaller size and lower complexity of the original motor.

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On 7/12/2018 at 2:14 PM, GMiller said:

A good friend had a Beta 2 cylinder diesel "professionally installed" as well.  The engine was not mounted flat, but rather sloped to the stern.  The fill for the heat exchanger was on the low end.  He had coolant troubles right off the bat.  Stanley from Beta met us mid cruise to problem solve and spotted the issue immediately.  Perhaps that's what you meant by vapor lock?  No problems since, in 10 years.

Could be.  Do Beta’s have an interlock that shuts down the fuel flow if there is an overheating condition?  BTW do the Beta/Nanni/Kubota have common rail fuel systems?  

4 hours ago, IStream said:

My 35,000lb 50'er came from the factory with a 75hp naturally aspirated Yanmar but the PO repowered with the turbo/intercooled version with 100hp. I'd gladly give up the exta 25hp (which I never use) for the smaller size and lower complexity of the original motor.

I would rather have more displacement and no turbo vs less displacement with turbo.  I recall reading long time ago the turbo on small marine diesels tends to be one of the major problem areas on that type engine.  

 

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17 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Nice.  My boat currently has a 30 year old Universal M40 which actually puts out 32HP. So underpowered that we can barely just break 5kts at 2500 RPM and no headwind or waves.  Any higher RPM and the engine starts to overheat.  

I suppose I've learned to be a better pilot having to finesse the boat in tight spaces knowing there isn't enough power to stop her at a moments notice.  

what's redline for the engine?  Not that 32hp is enough - but still. You should be able to run flat out and never have cooling issues.
 

Sounds like you might have some issues in the cooling passages?

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30 minutes ago, J28 said:

I would rather have more displacement and no turbo vs less displacement with turbo.  I recall reading long time ago the turbo on small marine diesels tends to be one of the major problem areas on that type engine.  

 

I agree completely. The frustrating thing is that my motor comes in both versions, same block and displacement just no-turbo/75hp or turbo/intercooled/oilcooled 100hp. Both are plenty reliable but the turbo barely fits in the space so access is a bitch and the complexity of the 4K hour service is much greater for the turbo version.

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On 7/11/2018 at 1:05 PM, MauiPunter said:

 

Ok.   Great advice.   Not sure if you are from New England area but who are the Yanmar repower specialists?  I'd like to connect with them to go over it in more detail.   

Cloutman Marine in Marblehead. https://www.cloutmanmarine.com/ - talk to Zach 508.847.1134

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1 minute ago, ryley said:

Cloutman Marine in Marblehead. https://www.cloutmanmarine.com/ - talk to Zach 508.847.1134

Thanks!   Btw, good seeing you on Saturday.  I was on LaFawnda.  :)

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Just now, MauiPunter said:

Thanks!   Btw, good seeing you on Saturday.  I was on LaFawnda.  :)

funny, my crew had the boat, I was up in Harvard doing a 52 mile fundraising bike ride ;) Are you coming to the rumble on wednesday? If so, we'll connect then.

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Just now, ryley said:

funny, my crew had the boat, I was up in Harvard doing a 52 mile fundraising bike ride ;) Are you coming to the rumble on wednesday? If so, we'll connect then.

Yup.  Then I'm racing my boat in the Beringer on Fri/Sat and then the Downeast on the following weekend..

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we'll see you at the beringer too then ;) anyway.. back on topic. Are you sure it's your engine and not your prop that's leaving you underpowered? I mean, on my boat, when I bought it I couldn't get it over 5.8 knots.. with the new flexofold (new? I think it's my 3rd season with it) we motor between 6.8 and 7.2 at WOT. That's with a 9hp 1gm10.

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2 hours ago, ryley said:

we'll see you at the beringer too then ;) anyway.. back on topic. Are you sure it's your engine and not your prop that's leaving you underpowered? I mean, on my boat, when I bought it I couldn't get it over 5.8 knots.. with the new flexofold (new? I think it's my 3rd season with it) we motor between 6.8 and 7.2 at WOT. That's with a 9hp 1gm10.

I have an 18" 3-blade Maxprop set to 18deg.   This is what Maxprop said to set the pitch to for my engine/transmission combination.  A friend of mine has been raving about the improvement he got when he switched to an autoprop which has variable pitch depending on the RPM.  So, I have been considering giving that a try since its a much lower investment.  

https://www.bruntonspropellers.com/autoprop

 

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^^ I had to set my MaxProp 2 settings less pitch than what they recommended to get near max RPM.  J/35 wiith a Yanmar 3GM30F.  They've sold a lot of J35 props but their recommended settings were way off for my boat. I could not do anything above 2800 RPM without a black cloud behind me.  Now I get over 3000 RPM/~7kts no problem.

So I would try to repitch the prop before you get rid of it. It's kind of a pain in the ass, but well worth it. 

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25 minutes ago, DrewR said:

^^ I had to set my MaxProp 2 settings less pitch than what they recommended to get near max RPM.  J/35 wiith a Yanmar 3GM30F.  They've sold a lot of J35 props but their recommended settings were way off for my boat. I could not do anything above 2800 RPM without a black cloud behind me.  Now I get over 3000 RPM/~7kts no problem.

So I would try to repitch the prop before you get rid of it. It's kind of a pain in the ass, but well worth it. 

Yea, the procedure to set the pitch is such a pain in the ass.  Can't do it when the boat is in the water.  So, hard to set and test and set again and test again.  

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Yes, I had to wait until it was hauled in the fall. I went 1 setting and it was better and the following year the 2nd.  So it took 2 seasons to dial it in. 

Fastbottoms here on SA is a diver and does them in the water. There was a diver in Marblehead or thereabouts that claimed to do. I have no clue how unless they dive with a fully stocked spare kit.  I swore at mine and had to dig around in the gravel to find dropped parts and it really is a 2 man operation, no matter what the instructions say. Learned that in my multiple attempts.

That said, repitching it was the key.  Works like a charm now. 

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22 minutes ago, DrewR said:

Yes, I had to wait until it was hauled in the fall. I went 1 setting and it was better and the following year the 2nd.  So it took 2 seasons to dial it in. 

Fastbottoms here on SA is a diver and does them in the water. There was a diver in Marblehead or thereabouts that claimed to do. I have no clue how unless they dive with a fully stocked spare kit.  I swore at mine and had to dig around in the gravel to find dropped parts and it really is a 2 man operation, no matter what the instructions say. Learned that in my multiple attempts.

That said, repitching it was the key.  Works like a charm now. 

Did you have to decrease or increase pitch compared to what Maxi recommended?

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Decrease I believe. 

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Same issue. Pitch was too heavy. Engine overheating at higher rpms and we killed the engine. Now we have another engine and a better setting of the pitch. No problems anymore

we killed a 8ysm yanmar engine en now we have a yanmar 12gm20. So bit more power ( from 8 to 12 so a lot more ) Prop is a maxprop 2 blade with heavy corrosion. So not the best anymore. 

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and just for the record, a short haul to change the pitch is way cheaper than a Nanni OR Beta install ;)

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23 hours ago, ryley said:

and just for the record, a short haul to change the pitch is way cheaper than a Nanni OR Beta install ;)

Bear in mind there is no need to haul a boat to repitch a Max Prop (or any feathering prop, for that matter), regardless of model. They can all be repitched underwater.

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2 hours ago, fstbttms said:

Bear in mind there is no need to haul a boat to repitch a Max Prop (or any feathering prop, for that matter), regardless of model. They can all be repitched underwater.

I'd love to see a video of that. Seriously. I can''t imagine doing it underwater.

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20 hours ago, DrewR said:

I'd love to see a video of that. Seriously. I can''t imagine doing it underwater.

Here's a Max Prop installation video that I never completed:

 

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I'll give another vote for a happy Beta repower customer.  In fact, when you call the Beta folks, look into becoming a 'dealer'.  You'll get a substantial amount off the motor and get a butload of spares of things like impellers.  I was lucky - I was able to use a relative's business address so I could become a dealer.

I love the motor too.  I still can't get over how quickly and it starts every single time.  And I know 30 years from now, I'll still be able to easily get spares because it's a tractor engine.  After my experience easily getting spares for a 38 year old Universal 5411, that sold me on sticking with tractor engines and staying the hell away from "marine" specific engines.  I've watched the neighbor paying thousands getting spares for his "marine" engines.

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My mate has a beta 3cyl in his boat and it seems great, however one little mod we made was to fit a shutdown solenoid timer to it so you can kill it by just turning the key off. I have always wondered why they make marine engines so retarded to start and stop compared to what for most people is instinct with a key. On to start and crank then off to stop the bloody thing. One less thing to have to explain to newbies. 

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Yeah, good call on that.  Have to 2nd the recommendation to go with an engine that has lots of parts availability. I have a 28 year old boat with a 35 year old volkswagen diesel. Best I can tell is it was in another boat prior to this one. Anyway, had to clean it up, and the basic engine is straight out of the catalog. Timing belts? valve covers, dipstick, pulleys, etc, etc, etc. Cheap as chips.

Yeah, I know this engine has some spot heating problems, but for something designed in the last decade? easy call.

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I'll throw another vote in for Beta. I have a 43 with about 400 hours on it and it's been solid. I really like being able to call Beta (NC office) and talk to the team there. They always answer and they're always happy to spend time talking through any maintenance procedures or random questions that come up. They also stock all parts and are able to get them to me within 2 days. The one time I needed a part that they did not have, they connected me with the Beta office in California, who did have it, and it was shipped immediately. Between the awesome engine and great service, I will never not have a Beta. Also, as has been mentioned, non-marinized parts are available everywhere for cheap. 

From what I understand, Yanmar has a really restrictive regional dealer network. Also their engine paint blows. Most Yanmars I see are chipped, flaking and rust streaked. Gross. 

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