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mpbeagle

Beneteau 38.1 Performance Version

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Has anyone raced on or been in a fleet with anyone racing one of the newer, twin rudder Beneteau 38. performance version?  http://no-frills-sailing.com/meet-the-beneteau-oceanis-38-1-performance/  Yes, I know there will be a flood of Beneteau haters sending in "Beneslow" jokes, but the performance version looks interesting with taller mast, 130 square feet more of sail area , a decent D/L of 145, adjustable backstay, jib cars, etc.  Although it is a Finot design (miss the Farr designs), the Polars look good and it could be promising family racer that starts at < 200K.  I like the Sunfast 3600 better with it's tillers and dedicated racing platform, but its hard to ignore the cost difference (about 40K) between the 2 boats and the Benny performace package comes with laminate race sails.  Could not find much outside of manufacturer-sponsored sites. 

I'm interested in member's actual experience racing the boat in their local fleets (how are they doing) more than opinions without any basis.  Here we go.

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Just went on sale last year. No published ratings I could find.  Better looking than Bene 36.7.  But I agree Sunfast 3600 is better looking

 

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The fact it is an Oceanis pretty much says it all.

Aesthetics aside,  the large recessed topside port lights are an issue for me - and not just for obvious reasons like potential for leaks and added drag if they become immersed when heeled.

I'm thinking more along the lines of structural issues.  Studies have shown the bow sections of a hull (topsides in particular), roughly forward of the mast experience high slamming loads.  Most boats can use additional stiffening in this area.  Here, they have removed structure from this critical area.  This is compounded by the chine running to the bow, creating very flat panel sections in the bow area, which have inherently poor stiffness.  I suspect the bow of this boat will bend and twist quite willingly - at least when compared to a hull that did not have these big forward port lights.

The German mainsheet system looks like a trip hazard, which is acceptable on a real racer, but not so much for a typical Oceanis owner.  On top of that, there is no traveller, which pretty much removes any performance aspirations.

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have a look at the Elan's. I saw a sharp one about this size on the water. Maybe the E4.  No clue on cost, but performance wise, I think they are a good bit slower than the Sunfast3600. Check me on that, because I'm not up on the 3600's rating.  The 3600 is pretty cool if you don't mind the spartan interior as a cruiser.  Racing, it still has a bit much for me.  This pig, I'd run the other direction from.  It's like the guy that puts a spoiler on a Ford Taurus. They toss on a few details like a chine, dual wheels, and the fancy mainsheet. just your average getter, but it looks trendy.

 

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13 hours ago, widget said:

 fancy mainsheet.

 

???

the main is the worst thing about the whole boat.

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15 hours ago, widget said:

have a look at the Elan's. I saw a sharp one about this size on the water. Maybe the E4.  No clue on cost, but performance wise, I think they are a good bit slower than the Sunfast3600. Check me on that, because I'm not up on the 3600's rating.  The 3600 is pretty cool if you don't mind the spartan interior as a cruiser.  Racing, it still has a bit much for me.  This pig, I'd run the other direction from.  It's like the guy that puts a spoiler on a Ford Taurus. They toss on a few details like a chine, dual wheels, and the fancy mainsheet. just your average getter, but it looks trendy.

 

a "performance" boat,   no traveller.. 

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4 hours ago, Parma said:

???

the main is the worst thing about the whole boat.

I didn’t say it was practical or smart.   “Fancy” as in looks over function to sell to someone who doesn’t know any better.   

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Good comment regarding the slamming and hull stiffness-I just finished A2B in my old boat and can attest to the amount of "slamming" force the boat must endure FWD of the mast as it goes upwind off the backs of waves.  Lots of newer boats have these "pretty" windows topsides-it's a new trend and does give a nice interior look.  The XP-38 also has several of these windows (another boat I looked at).  Big difference is they are smaller and flush.  I imagine the build quality on the x-yacht's hull is better, but the price is about 70K more without options.

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3 hours ago, mpbeagle said:

Good comment regarding the slamming and hull stiffness-I just finished A2B in my old boat and can attest to the amount of "slamming" force the boat must endure FWD of the mast as it goes upwind off the backs of waves.  Lots of newer boats have these "pretty" windows topsides-it's a new trend and does give a nice interior look.  The XP-38 also has several of these windows (another boat I looked at).  Big difference is they are smaller and flush.  I imagine the build quality on the x-yacht's hull is better, but the price is about 70K more without options.

I dunno...modern adhesives and some engineering probably pretty much solve the problem.  Has anyone ACTUALLY seen or heard of a case where there was such a failure? There's enough boats out there now with the feature that if it's a true flaw, there might be one or two cases by now.  Sometimes, folks on these here interwebs mostly just have good imaginations for 'bad things', especially if they're talking about the 'bad boys' of mass production. 

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2 hours ago, Veeger said:

I dunno...modern adhesives and some engineering probably pretty much solve the problem.  Has anyone ACTUALLY seen or heard of a case where there was such a failure? There's enough boats out there now with the feature that if it's a true flaw, there might be one or two cases by now.  Sometimes, folks on these here interwebs mostly just have good imaginations for 'bad things', especially if they're talking about the 'bad boys' of mass production. 

I don't recall mentioning structural failure - just structural issues.

In the world of Limit States Design (LRFD in the US), a design has to satisfy two criteria:

1.  Ultimate Limit State, where you are into plastic deformation and impending failure

2.  Serviceability Limit State where a structure no longer satisfies it's intended use (i.e. a floor deflecting too much when walked on)

When I said structural issues, I was referring to servicabilty failure in the sense that the bow sections will tend to bend and twist which will affect sailing performance (it's intended use) more than would be the case if the bow port lights were absent.

And yes, you could account for that in the design and add some additional structure to compensate - but that would involve added weight in the second worst place you can add weight to a sailboat.  

In other words, it is almost impossible for these port lights to not compromise performance - it's just a question of to what degree

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So, per your 'structural issues'.  What evidence is there that either the Ultimate Limit State or the Serviceability Limit State have been breached.  You're talking theory and it may well be true as far as it goes but there is no evidence that I've seen or heard that should (currently) give actual cause for concern.

Of course it's a matter of 'degree'.  I just think it's too easy to talk of compromising performance but you haven't really demonstrated that the loss is of any significance.  A 0.001 per cent loss makes your statement 'True', but irrelevant to anyone other than an engineer.  Show me where it's making a difference before pontificating about how 'bad' a certain practice is.  

We've actually had (interminable) discussions on keelbolts where there was indeed a Serviceability Limit State AND an Ultimate Limit State issue.  I just haven't seen any evidence for port lights in today's generation of hull window designs to be pushing either limit.  Raising big red flags about a feature based on theoretical facts without demonstrable proof that it even matters practically is what I'm pushing back on.  I'm not questioning that there isn't an effect on the structure.

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

So, per your 'structural issues'.  What evidence is there that either the Ultimate Limit State or the Serviceability Limit State have been breached.  You're talking theory and it may well be true as far as it goes but there is no evidence that I've seen or heard that should (currently) give actual cause for concern.

Of course it's a matter of 'degree'.  I just think it's too easy to talk of compromising performance but you haven't really demonstrated that the loss is of any significance.  A 0.001 per cent loss makes your statement 'True', but irrelevant to anyone other than an engineer.  Show me where it's making a difference before pontificating about how 'bad' a certain practice is.  

We've actually had (interminable) discussions on keelbolts where there was indeed a Serviceability Limit State AND an Ultimate Limit State issue.  I just haven't seen any evidence for port lights in today's generation of hull window designs to be pushing either limit.  Raising big red flags about a feature based on theoretical facts without demonstrable proof that it even matters practically is what I'm pushing back on.  I'm not questioning that there isn't an effect on the structure.

Fair enough.

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12 hours ago, Veeger said:

I dunno...modern adhesives and some engineering probably pretty much solve the problem.  Has anyone ACTUALLY seen or heard of a case where there was such a failure? There's enough boats out there now with the feature that if it's a true flaw, there might be one or two cases by now.  Sometimes, folks on these here interwebs mostly just have good imaginations for 'bad things', especially if they're talking about the 'bad boys' of mass production. 

But it COULD happen.

And once the wynder is broke a giant sea monster could reach it's tentacles inside & grab you.

Best to stay away from theses boats.

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