stumblingthunder

Blood sacrifices - how it made you a better sailor

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This is to bring in the rest of you from the Dinghy Forum:

Most of my blood letting was not from dinghies but from MORC on up to sleds and maxies.

My most creative bleeding was when I was on a SC50 and I was sliding across the cabin top near the traveler during tacks.   I managed to slide my butt cheek into a clam cleat for the leeward traveler control, so I had built up a good amount of speed upon arrival.   I was abruptly well cleated at that point.

Upon reversing the direction of my slide, i proceeded to leave a nice red trail on the cabin top.   I learned, no more sliding for me that day, or in the future!

The Most of the other blood events were from meathooks on wire halyards, sheets and guys.   All were a reminder to break out the sailing knife and have a break off session on each offending wire line.

- Stumbling

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Meat hooks in wire tailed halyards and sheets. Makes me miss the good old IOR days.

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19 minutes ago, Caca Cabeza said:

Meat hooks in wire tailed halyards and sheets. Makes me miss the good old IOR days.

You forgot the sarcasm font.

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+1

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I have always had a (bad?) habit of not wanting to wear shoes on the boat in the summer. When I was much younger, my friend had a bad habit of using silicone-based tire conditioning sprays to keep the forward hatches on his Santana 20 shiny and haze free.... and very very slippery. During a particularly hairy race on the Detroit River, we decided to switch from our mylar 155 to the heavy dacron 105 when it started to really blow. I hanked on the new jib below the old one on the forestay while under spinnaker, then unhanked the 155 and as I was stuffing it down below, I slid down across the slippery hatch and tore open the bottom of my foot on a jib car track with no end cap. The skipper called for a gybe while I was up there and I proceeded to leave a trail of very distinct blood footprints all over the dacron jib. 

My friend ran across his former boat last summer at a regatta, and 18 years later, my blood footprints are still on that heavy-air jib. 

Did it make me a better sailor? I don't know. I still don't wear shoes on the boat when it's warm out, but I became really good at being aware of my foot placement when I was on the foredeck after that.

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Yeah, meat hooks......'nuff said.

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3 hours ago, ajbram said:

I have always had a (bad?) habit of not wanting to wear shoes on the boat in the summer. When I was much younger, my friend had a bad habit of using silicone-based tire conditioning sprays to keep the forward hatches on his Santana 20 shiny and haze free.... and very very slippery. During a particularly hairy race on the Detroit River, we decided to switch from our mylar 155 to the heavy dacron 105 when it started to really blow. I hanked on the new jib below the old one on the forestay while under spinnaker, then unhanked the 155 and as I was stuffing it down below, I slid down across the slippery hatch and tore open the bottom of my foot on a jib car track with no end cap. The skipper called for a gybe while I was up there and I proceeded to leave a trail of very distinct blood footprints all over the dacron jib. 

My friend ran across his former boat last summer at a regatta, and 18 years later, my blood footprints are still on that heavy-air jib. 

Did it make me a better sailor? I don't know. I still don't wear shoes on the boat when it's warm out, but I became really good at being aware of my foot placement when I was on the foredeck after that.

I don't allow anyone to go barefoot on my boat during races.  Have the same rule about velcro sandals.  It's a friggin' race...dress like it. 

Too many times, barefoot crew would cut their foot, get a jammed toe, fall on their ass.  Had someone break a toe kicking the shroud base running forward to do an emergency spin takedown.  That ended in a mess and the end of barefoot bow people.  

The last line of the IOR rule was apparently "If you're not bleeding, you aren't racing."  That does NOT need to be true.  

(p.s. They need to buy a new genoa.) 

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As a kid I was told the the bailers in a Finn were only there to drain the blood out. 

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

I don't allow anyone to go barefoot on my boat during races. 

Plus a million.  A sailboat offers every opportunity to slice your feet open at every turn and anyone who doesn't wear reasonable footwear is putting the boat at risk.  They cut their foot bad enough, now you're dropping out to get them medical attention.  On a delivery, who cares.  

On the meathooks, YES.  But I never remember a band aid, electrical and duct tape yes, but no band aids. 

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1 minute ago, Cal20sailor said:

Plus a million.  A sailboat offers every opportunity to slice your feet open at every turn and anyone who doesn't wear reasonable footwear is putting the boat at risk.  They cut their foot bad enough, now you're dropping out to get them medical attention.  On a delivery, who cares.  

On the meathooks, YES.  But I never remember a band aid, electrical and duct tape yes, but no band aids. 

Friggin' bandaids never stayed on.  Duct tape and a wad of paper towel.  

Used to run the back of a knife along every wire halyard and sheet before every race, and still sliced my palm or my sailing gloves way too often.

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Catalina 37, reefed so boom end a bit lower than I was used to.  Was turned the wrong way and never saw the accidental jibe coming--unusual for me, but there you have it.  Came to 15 minutes later, with my t-shirt having been used as the absorber of blood.  It was rather red.  ER and four stitches later and I was 70% okay and 30% confused.  13 years later I would put that at 90/10, but getting older makes it hard to parse out.

This may not be what OP was shooting for, but anyway.  Haven't been knocked out since.  Woo hoo.

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Like I always say for just about everything..."Progress is not made without a little bleeding"

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1 hour ago, Left Shift said:

Used to run the back of a knife along every wire halyard and sheet before every race, and still sliced my palm or my sailing gloves way too often.

We all did.  And we would run our hands over that stretch where the halyards make the turning block under pressure and we would all smile saying no more meat hooks today.  I am now convinced that all we did was the old wife's tale that if you shaved it, it came back more aggressive.  The afterguys never seemed so bad.  I just thank God I was able to race on SC70s vs IOR70s.  My worst wire experiences were in the early 80's on a 45'.  No wire anything long before I was on the 70.

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7 hours ago, Left Shift said:

I don't allow anyone to go barefoot on my boat during races.  Have the same rule about velcro sandals.  It's a friggin' race...dress like it. 

Too many times, barefoot crew would cut their foot, get a jammed toe, fall on their ass.  Had someone break a toe kicking the shroud base running forward to do an emergency spin takedown.  That ended in a mess and the end of barefoot bow people.  

The last line of the IOR rule was apparently "If you're not bleeding, you aren't racing."  That does NOT need to be true.  

(p.s. They need to buy a new genoa.) 

I had a lot of experience of re-setting my own toes both on and off of a sailboat (second part of the meaning behind Stumblingthunder!)   Boat shoe bottoms aways wore out or hardened up so they did not stick so well to the deck.    Life got better went Harken came out with their boat shoe!

I did a lot of sailboard racing (teak-boomed Windsurfers, Superlights, One-design and finally Superlight IIs) and once I came ashore and put both feet on top of a rock with barnacles.   Duct tape was my savior that weekend.    After having poured hydrogen peroxide on both feet, I taped up the cut up areas and left some skin available for traction.   Had a few more blisters from the reduced friction area for the weekend, but made it through the regatta.  

I am amazed now that I did not get some infection.    I hear about all these necrotic infections from salt water now that I never had heard of growing up.   Salt water was the go to for cuts and rashes back then.    Likewise, did not hear about anyone getting the amoeba up the nose into the brain from fresh water.   I put my head into the muck a number of times from jumping in, falling from skiing and just goofing around in my youth.

- Stumbling

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15 hours ago, Left Shift said:

I don't allow anyone to go barefoot on my boat during races.  Have the same rule about velcro sandals.  It's a friggin' race...dress like it. 

Too many times, barefoot crew would cut their foot, get a jammed toe, fall on their ass.  Had someone break a toe kicking the shroud base running forward to do an emergency spin takedown.  That ended in a mess and the end of barefoot bow people.  

The last line of the IOR rule was apparently "If you're not bleeding, you aren't racing."  That does NOT need to be true.  

(p.s. They need to buy a new genoa.) 

There is no hard and fast shoe policy on the boat I am currently on. It depends on weather and position. Foredeckers always wear shoes. The upper management types in the afterguard sometimes wear shoes. The spongey cockpit floor material and open layout of the M32 make it pretty forgiving for barefooters back there. 

I have a friend who spent his whole life cruising on a boat with a really high boom, then got a divot torn out of his scalp by the outhaul cam cleat during his first race on a J/24. 

 

And yes, they do need to get a new jib on that S20. That one only makes 1 or 2 appearances per year (or at least it did when i was on that boat), but usually when we got that one out it was blowing over 30, so it took a beating.

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12 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Friggin' bandaids never stayed on.  Duct tape and a wad of paper towel.  

 

+1,000,000 on that. These days my backcountry 1st aid kit contains a couple tubes of superglue as well. Works like a charm. Stings like a motherfucker.

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"Friggin' bandaids never stayed on.  Duct tape and a wad of paper towel.  "

I prefer blue tape and blue shop towels.  Much dressier.

Worked great when I did a compound fracture of a little toe.  MD in Mexico thought I did a very professional job ...

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Some idiot mastman dropped the inboard end on my skull, it actually didn't hurt until she started cutting the clips out a week or so later... but man did it bleed a lot....enough to see a few of the less hardy crew nearly pass out when they saw me....8 or 10 big staples at the club (thanks Richard and Camelle) and a bunch of free drinks,I was good to go.

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Wire winch for the main halyard anyone?

Lots of meat hooks, and if you let the brake go with the winch handle, that left a mark!

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Tripped once while on the foredeck, slid my shin across the end of the jib track. It opened up a huge gash that ran from my knee to my ankle.  I barely felt it. I finished what I was doing, and grabbed an empty bottle, filled it up with salt water, poured it it on my leg. I dried it up, then superglued it (I always have a tube in my pocket), wrapped it in a t-shirt, and wrapped the whole thing in e tape. Bomber

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5 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Tripped once while on the foredeck, slid my shin across the end of the jib track. It opened up a huge gash that ran from my knee to my ankle.  I barely felt it. I finished what I was doing, and grabbed an empty bottle, filled it up with salt water, poured it it on my leg. I dried it up, then superglued it (I always have a tube in my pocket), wrapped it in a t-shirt, and wrapped the whole thing in e tape. Bomber

I once had a hangnail that bled and was airlifted to a hospital.  

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7 hours ago, Connor.kainalu said:

Tripped once while on the foredeck, slid my shin across the end of the jib track. It opened up a huge gash that ran from my knee to my ankle.  I barely felt it. I finished what I was doing, and grabbed an empty bottle, filled it up with salt water, poured it it on my leg. I dried it up, then superglued it (I always have a tube in my pocket), wrapped it in a t-shirt, and wrapped the whole thing in e tape. Bomber

...while sailing single-handed 5 miles uphill. Each way. In the snow

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On 7/12/2018 at 6:11 PM, Left Shift said:

I don't allow anyone to go barefoot on my boat during races.  Have the same rule about velcro sandals.  It's a friggin' race...dress like it. 

Too many times, barefoot crew would cut their foot, get a jammed toe, fall on their ass.  Had someone break a toe kicking the shroud base running forward to do an emergency spin takedown.  That ended in a mess and the end of barefoot bow people.  

I always wear shoes for serious races or for boats that are new to me, but for weeknight racing it's barefoot all the way. 

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Nothing gets the blood flowing more from shins than the traveler on a S2 .7.9 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUnDmcwFtuSTPNgNkpvmZ

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There is a reason the safety guides on airplanes say "put your own oxygen mask on first"

While rushing for the first aid kit when another crew member on main had cut themselves and was bleeding profusely, I smashed my own head on the boom as it wasn't secured. I put everyone else in a worse position because there was now two people down. I was off work for 2 days, but his cut was fine in a few hours.

Also, agreeing with shoes, or open-sided 'sandals' with closed toes like keens. Broke a metatarsal when my toes went on either side of a deck fixture in a tricky docking situation.

So I now know to pause for a moment in dangerous situations to make sure I am safe first before 'helping' other crew members! Pay attention to where you are and what you are doing, and everyone will have a much better time!

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On 7/13/2018 at 8:11 AM, Left Shift said:

I don't allow anyone to go barefoot on my boat during races.  Have the same rule about velcro sandals.  It's a friggin' race...dress like it. 

Too many times, barefoot crew would cut their foot, get a jammed toe, fall on their ass.  Had someone break a toe kicking the shroud base running forward to do an emergency spin takedown.  That ended in a mess and the end of barefoot bow people.  

The last line of the IOR rule was apparently "If you're not bleeding, you aren't racing."  That does NOT need to be true.  

(p.s. They need to buy a new genoa.) 

By Genoa, do you mean the Italian town or the sail I read about in a history book?

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trimming the big #1 i learned how to get your forearm caught in the self tailer. not cool. i learned one of the many the uses of absolut vodka. i was 12 .

 

i also remember seth morell having the boom drop on his head while spinning head to wind to drop the main in alamitos bay after a day at audi race week in long beach,  somebody dropped the main halyard before being asked. now its funny, at the time , it wasnt. pretty bloody .

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On 7/13/2018 at 3:33 PM, jamhass said:

"Friggin' bandaids never stayed on.  Duct tape and a wad of paper towel.  "

I prefer blue tape and blue shop towels.  Much dressier.

Worked great when I did a compound fracture of a little toe.  MD in Mexico thought I did a very professional job ...

Super Glue the Carpenters Friend.

Driver ”We need you on the rail”. Wrong side of a spin pole as I pulled the guy snap shackle on a take down. Broken nose.

Owner “I’ll call my Dr. Buddy He will look at that.. “ Hand between pointy end of a 6M and a dock. ER and stitches.

Driver “WWF Gots nothing on Sailing “ with red all over the place when a boom bottom eye strap hit the top of my head on a no duck jibe. Lots a blood not so big hole.

Now it’s Don’t let it Happen...

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On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 12:51 AM, stumblingthunder said:

Boat shoe bottoms aways wore out or hardened up so they did not stick so well to the deck.

Perhaps I'm too cheap, but when my shoes harden up, I run beads of high temp hot glue in the treads. Has worked wonderfully so far.

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On 7/16/2018 at 10:06 PM, LB 15 said:

By Genoa, do you mean the Italian town or the sail I read about in a history book?

The sausage.... It was converted to blood sausage.

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On 7/18/2018 at 7:41 PM, OutofOffice said:

Perhaps I'm too cheap, but when my shoes harden up, I run beads of high temp hot glue in the treads. Has worked wonderfully so far.

240 sandpaper and they are fine for another year... (throwing them away is always an emotional moment (still have old school sebago's))

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On 7/18/2018 at 10:41 AM, OutofOffice said:

Perhaps I'm too cheap, but when my shoes harden up, I run beads of high temp hot glue in the treads. Has worked wonderfully so far.

Wipe em with a nice wet MEK soaked rag. Works great on tail lights too! :P

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On 7/17/2018 at 6:27 PM, bigrpowr said:

i also remember seth morell having the boom drop on his head while spinning head to wind to drop the main in alamitos bay after a day at audi race week in long beach,  somebody dropped the main halyard before being asked. now its funny, at the time , it wasnt. pretty bloody .

That explains quite a bit about Seth!

 

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1 hour ago, Somebody Else said:

That explains quite a bit about Seth!

 

don't kid, we didnt even make the start the next day, we flew over it in his plane instead.. he was plenty batshit before that .:D hes still a great guy , just dont bring up diamond head or ... 

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10 hours ago, daan62 said:

240 sandpaper and they are fine for another year... (throwing them away is always an emotional moment (still have old school sebago's))

I have used the sandpaper method a number of times.   You can also send them off to get the sole retread if the moccasin is in good shape.   I have done that until the leather uppers fall apart.

- Stumbling

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7 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

I have used the sandpaper method a number of times.   You can also send them off to get the sole retread if the moccasin is in good shape.   I have done that until the leather uppers fall apart.

- Stumbling

in my case... (wearing shoes during sailing and flipflops ashore) the leather is gone before the sole is...

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Six month deployment on the big grey boats to the Persian Gulf as part of the first Gulf War.  Watching on radar Iraqi planes flying 110 nm from the ship (a big, slow, poorly armed supply ship).  

Plenty of drills (incoming missile, chemical attack, fire, small boat attack) where it wasn't known it was a drill until near the end.  

Oh, wait, wrong kind of sailing stories.  

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I have a trimmer that I think highly of, who always finds a new way to bark his shins and skin his knees on the primaries, cockpit seats, backstay turning blocks, you name it.  He never lets a little cut stop him... but he bleeds like an heir to the Russian throne.   I've got bloodstained shorts from hitting in his dribbles of blood on the cockpit coamings... repeatedly. 

The rest of the crew are predictable.  The front end guys have scuffed knees, my mid-boat folks get rope burns from mis-handling a halyard or touching the sheets on the #1 mid-tack, and I always have scuffed knuckles from rapping boat hardware.  We, like Talleyrand said, seem to forget nothing and learn nothing.  But my trimmer... he never repeats a mistake, and never does self-surgery the same way twice.  I appreciate his ever-fresh, innovative approach to self-harm. 

Even so, I still make him hose his own blood out of the cockpit after every other race. It looks like a friggin' abbatoir back there sometimes.   

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While lollygagging on a lovely late summer afternoon outside of MKE in 10 knots of SE breeze I looked into the distance to the north after my crew said "Is that a gust line?" Pointing to a dark patch of water to the north rapidly approaching.

I said "No I think it is just that cloud's shadow."

The next thing I said was "Oh shit." as the water was clearly being torn from the calm surface of the water.  A few seconds later a cold downburst hit us like a ton of shit.   I tried to steer us into the gust but I lost control, it rounded up,  backwinded the sails and knocked us flat, my crew fell to bottom of the cockpit. I managed to ease the main traveller and sheet out the main  some, loose the backwinded genoa with one hand while steering to get us back on our feet with the other, we whipped around and my crew rolled onto a pile of line (genoa sheet) and was still on the cockpit floor swearing. His girlfriend was in the head below having a piss with this happend, she was screaming...I yelled hang on and stay there. I grabbed the furling line and started trying pull in the flagging genoa but I needed two hands so I let go of the wheel for second and we lurched into the wind the genoa sheet was under the crew so it caught, causing me to stop furling, then I saw the flagging genoa fill,  I let go of the furling line as it shot through my hand, the genoa violently unfurled, the stopper knot hit me in the thumb and tore open a gash in my index finger. Blood started flying and I thought I lost my finger for a moment. My crew got himself up and the genoa sheet shot to the stopper knot in the car as I had already released it from the winch. The genoa was flagging violently but the boat was coming to it's feet, I told him to take the wheel and I managed to get a wrap with the furling line around a winch and haul in the genoa. Now we were reaching hard on the main I eased the main sheet and we calmed down.  The wind was setting in from almost a 180 shift at 15 knots....and I was rattled and bleeding all over myself and the cockpit.

In a minute or two it calmed down. I bandaged my hand and we made for the harbor gap. I had a purple thumb and forefinger from the deal.

What I learned...

1. always use a winch on the furling line - in or out...

2. Pay attention in late afternoon past heat of the day near a urban area. Cold air suspended by hot city convection can collapse suddenly. 

3. Respect the imprecise timing of predicted windshifts. A northerly windshift was predicted for later that evening, so it arrived early apparently...

4. Be patient if you see the burst coming, prepare ahead of the gust what you can, but let the boat settle after it hits. Then make more adjustments.

5. get new flatter sails...lose the 150 genoa.. (I did this this season, I have new full batten main and 110 jib, both UK X-drive silver... boat is faster and much easier to handle)

 

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Took a boom shot to my forehead when the gooseneck broke on a SB3 in the Double Damned, blowing 30+.  It knocked me overboard, lucky still conscious.  Shoulda worn a helmet.  Hope I'm smart enough next time to do so. 

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On 7/12/2018 at 12:11 PM, ajbram said:

I have always had a (bad?) habit of not wanting to wear shoes on the boat in the summer. When I was much younger, my friend had a bad habit of using silicone-based tire conditioning sprays to keep the forward hatches on his Santana 20 shiny and haze free.... and very very slippery. During a particularly hairy race on the Detroit River, we decided to switch from our mylar 155 to the heavy dacron 105 when it started to really blow. I hanked on the new jib below the old one on the forestay while under spinnaker, then unhanked the 155 and as I was stuffing it down below, I slid down across the slippery hatch and tore open the bottom of my foot on a jib car track with no end cap. The skipper called for a gybe while I was up there and I proceeded to leave a trail of very distinct blood footprints all over the dacron jib. 

My friend ran across his former boat last summer at a regatta, and 18 years later, my blood footprints are still on that heavy-air jib. 

Did it make me a better sailor? I don't know. I still don't wear shoes on the boat when it's warm out, but I became really good at being aware of my foot placement when I was on the foredeck after that.

Jesus, how far forward was the track??  OD config??  Asking because it would take a Herculean amount of contorting your appendages to have done it on ether of the tracks..  More likely you hooked an untaped cotter pin on the chainplates, or you are really really good at yoga and should pursue a career in Cirque du soleil..  ;)

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On 7/20/2018 at 9:03 AM, daan62 said:

in my case... (wearing shoes during sailing and flipflops ashore) the leather is gone before the sole is...

I wear boatshoes in the Boatyard.  I'm lucky if I get 6 months before I start having to sew the uppers back together, then another 2 before they completely disintigrate.  The Sperry people were there once doing an ad.  They thought my 2 month old shoes were a year and a half.  Cuffed me a gift card on the spot.

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2 hours ago, Nettles said:

I wear boatshoes in the Boatyard.  I'm lucky if I get 6 months before I start having to sew the uppers back together, then another 2 before they completely disintigrate.  The Sperry people were there once doing an ad.  They thought my 2 month old shoes were a year and a half.  Cuffed me a gift card on the spot.

since a year it's even worse... got dubarry full leather boots as a birthdaypresent from my father (he bought them, too)... since i'm mostly sailing dragons (modern ones with a raised bottom) nowadays, you sit in strange positions always hurting your ankles... wearing the boots a lot (even in sunny wheater)

damn good boots!

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21 hours ago, shaggy said:

Jesus, how far forward was the track??  OD config??  Asking because it would take a Herculean amount of contorting your appendages to have done it on ether of the tracks..  More likely you hooked an untaped cotter pin on the chainplates, or you are really really good at yoga and should pursue a career in Cirque du soleil..  ;)

Not sure Shaggy.  It was many many moons ago. I'm definitely not that flexible, but I know we had some non OD stuff on that boat as well. All i really remember was sliding down the forward "window" to starboard side and peeling a chunk of flesh off my foot at the end of my slide.

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14 minutes ago, ajbram said:

Not sure Shaggy.  It was many many moons ago. I'm definitely not that flexible, but I know we had some non OD stuff on that boat as well. All i really remember was sliding down the forward "window" to starboard side and peeling a chunk of flesh off my foot at the end of my slide.

No worries,  IMHO after racing them for over 20 years the story points to the chainplates.  Cary on...B)

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3 minutes ago, shaggy said:

No worries,  IMHO after racing them for over 20 years the story points to the chainplates.  Cary on...B)

baby stay rail can be a killer, too... or the baby stay itself...

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12 minutes ago, daan62 said:

baby stay rail can be a killer, too... or the baby stay itself...

Hence the contorting comment, :P I guess I just lumped the lowers (baby stay I guess) in with the rest of the tracks.  They are essentially guarded by the chainplates...  

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1 minute ago, shaggy said:

Hence the contorting comment, :P I guess I just lumped the lowers (baby stay I guess) in with the rest of the tracks.  They are essentially guarded by the chainplates...  

they all hurt! (guess we agree...)

with baby stay i mean the little extra fore stay (picking in on the mast aproximatly halfway between deck and attachement of the checkstays) on old ior boats for controlling mast pumping. it was most of the time set up on a little rail so you could adjust the tension on the stay by pulling it forward. you had to remove it downwind or else a normal pole dip during a jibe wasn't possible. (you forgot it only once... and felt stupid the rest of your life... but never repeated!) 

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9 minutes ago, daan62 said:

they all hurt! (guess we agree...)

with baby stay i mean the little extra fore stay (picking in on the mast aproximatly halfway between deck and attachement of the checkstays) on old ior boats for controlling mast pumping. it was most of the time set up on a little rail so you could adjust the tension on the stay by pulling it forward. you had to remove it downwind or else a normal pole dip during a jibe wasn't possible. (you forgot it only once... and felt stupid the rest of your life... but never repeated!) 

Yes, they are called aft lowers nowdays.  Original boats did not have them so if it was "Many moons ago", in Detroit, my guess is they were not installed as not many S20's made it past the Mississippi.  (I may be misremembering, but I think Detroit YC may have had a fleet for club boats that were replaced by the U20's, so I may be wrong on the lowers.)  It is an add on and 90% of boats racing today have em.  

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1 hour ago, shaggy said:

 

Yes, they are called aft lowers nowdays.  Original boats did not have them so if it was "Many moons ago", in Detroit, my guess is they were not installed as not many S20's made it past the Mississippi.  (I may be misremembering, but I think Detroit YC may have had a fleet for club boats that were replaced by the U20's, so I may be wrong on the lowers.)  It is an add on and 90% of boats racing today have em.  

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We had aft lowers... 

It was this boat. 

Image result for santana 20 breakaway

Looking at other images of its deck layout, it seems it could have been the inboard jib track just above the grab rails on the cabin top. I remember i used to brace a foot on the grab rail when gybing to keep my weight not so far forward. I remember sliding all over those forward hatches that season. I could have caught a foot on anything.

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15 hours ago, shaggy said:

 

Yes, they are called aft lowers nowdays.  Original boats did not have them so if it was "Many moons ago", in Detroit, my guess is they were not installed as not many S20's made it past the Mississippi.  (I may be misremembering, but I think Detroit YC may have had a fleet for club boats that were replaced by the U20's, so I may be wrong on the lowers.)  It is an add on and 90% of boats racing today have em.  

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i meant somthing like this (with a rail on deck...):

image.png.05743a389fbecbfbdefbb0affbb6be68.png

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