AClass USA 230

"Proper" Sailing Yacht for the America's Cup - a tired statement

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You know, as a dinghy racer that became a multihull racer back in the early 90's, I'm really thankful that Larry Ellison had the balls and money to bring multihull racing technology into the America's Cup and we saw a run of three AC events in a row with spectacular boats and racing. Especially given that we saw probably the most exciting America's Cup ever played out in San Francisco on foiling 72' cats with a comeback that will be legendary in all sport. The naysayers were put to bed when these spectacular sailing machines began foiling through tacks and the helmsman and tacticians on the boats had to make split second decisions with position changes that could happen in seconds. While I was disappointed that the finals in Bermuda was so lopsided because TNZ did such a magnificent job with their technological advantage, the challenger series was amazing to watch.

So I just want to puke when for the upcoming AC event the defender, challenger of record, and most recently the only American challenger all use language that they are returning the America's Cup to it's "proper roots". What they are trying to do is to create a monohull that can equal the amazing performance of the AC50's which were incredible sailing machines. Good luck but you know the bar has been set.

I find all Terry Hutchinson, Phil Lotz, Grant Dalton, Hap Fauth, Luna Rossa, and others are doing with their statements is alienating a cross section of the sailing community. Guys, I get it that you like the AC in monohulls and again I'm thankful that we saw three AC events in technology I can really relate to but your comments come across as arrogant, ignorant, and a poor attempt at putting down the spectacular AC events we got to witness over the last decade.

Given that, I'll probably be rooting for Sir Ben and his team on Ineos. They are hot and heavy campaigning a foiling GC32 catamaran which I think is going to better prepare them for the AC 75' foiling monohull than the other teams that are out sailing TP52's!

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As a cat sailor since 1986 and owner of multiple Tornados, F18s and likely owner of a foiling cat in the near future.... No cup in history has been as boring to watch as the last two Americas Cups. While the beasts in SF were amazing and the stories from my friends on one of the teams were incredible to listen to, the last cup  reaching to the first mark, sailing inside a restricted digital stadium, was numbingly aweful to watch (even as a TNZL fan)... I have raced all kinds of one, two, and three hulled boats, my nose doesn’t get bent out of shape like most cat sailors in the world, all I hope for is that we return to a a design that will span 12-16 years so we can get back to a design contest that many teams can participate in .... boats that will allow new teams to get up to speed and hopefully stick around  a few cycles like NZL in 87, Prada in 2000, Alinghi in 2000, Origin (or some form of GBR team) since 2007 maybe a some form of return of Artemis... to most, cats are (as Gary Jobson told me) sailing contraptions and are only exciting to watch crash (referencing the 88 olympic games). Thankfully we have moved past that and I am sure the F50 series and ESS will continue to have great cat racing as the cup hopefully will provide boats and tactics that get back to competitive racing , a design that last more than 4 years, and tactics beyond blinding boatspeed and staying on the foil...

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The VOR and others have pushed ocean sailing monohulls into places we would not have believed not long ago.  The Cutty Sark was a performance driven sailing boat to compare.

I think the AC is similar performance driven competition which will result in some form of improvement(s?) for sailing boats?

Some critics of AC do so from the lack of Match racing (equality of boats) but for me personally it is the pushing the design envelope, and testing the results that interests me.

These new 2 skin power plants might result in a new innovation for single skin (or soft sails in general) who knows.

Come on designers and sailors of the design surprise us!!

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The mistake so many are making is in thinking the AC75 is a monohull. It's a neat trick, but it is really a thinly disguised multihull, a tri to be precise. The 'central" hull is what it sails on in lighter winds with the foils on the end of arms giving righting moment and acting like amas. Once up foiling, again, it behaves just like a tri. 

The reason why we have this design is because those choosing the type of boat had painted themselves into a corner regarding monohulls while knowing that monohulls were simply too slow and boring. It's the same with the rig. It is only there because they have needed to try to find a way of getting close to key features of a solid wing without actually having solid wings.

It stinks of compromise to save egos, rather than the best design solutions available.

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58 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

The mistake so many are making is in thinking the AC75 is a monohull. It's a neat trick, but it is really a thinly disguised multihull, a tri to be precise. The 'central" hull is what it sails on in lighter winds with the foils on the end of arms giving righting moment and acting like amas. Once up foiling, again, it behaves just like a tri. 

The reason why we have this design is because those choosing the type of boat had painted themselves into a corner regarding monohulls while knowing that monohulls were simply too slow and boring. It's the same with the rig. It is only there because they have needed to try to find a way of getting close to key features of a solid wing without actually having solid wings.

It stinks of compromise to save egos, rather than the best design solutions available.

Question: "The 'central" hull is what it sails on in lighter winds with the foils on the end of arms giving righting moment and acting like amas" Does this mean the two outer hulls, or Amas on a trimaran don't constitute "hulls"? As the definition of "Trimaran is a yacht with three hulls in parallel. This surely must mean the two outer hulls do infact constitute "Hulls" otherwise there would be no such thing as a Trimaran. 

Foils are defined as appendages, not hulls, therefor the AC75 is indeed, a monohull with appendages.

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I believe all boats - "stink of compromise for "insert reason", rather than the best design solutions available."

I also believe AC has got away from "the best 90 foot boat that can sail across an ocean" which might bring about some surprises but , what do I know?

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41 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Question: "The 'central" hull is what it sails on in lighter winds with the foils on the end of arms giving righting moment and acting like amas" Does this mean the two outer hulls, or Amas on a trimaran don't constitute "hulls"? As the definition of "Trimaran is a yacht with three hulls in parallel. This surely must mean the two outer hulls do infact constitute "Hulls" otherwise there would be no such thing as a Trimaran. 

Foils are defined as appendages, not hulls, therefor the AC75 is indeed, a monohull with appendages.

Thanks for proving the point I was making, by being so literal in your definitions. It's a tri, disguised as something else. The big question is what benefits there are to doing this, rather than actually designing a multi.

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16 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Thanks for proving the point I was making, by being so literal in your definitions. It's a tri, disguised as something else. The big question is what benefits there are to doing this, rather than actually designing a multi.

Wait, if the AC75 is a Tri, then that would make a Cat a Monohull right? Or does that make a Tri maran, a Catamaran and the AC75 all monohulls?

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4 hours ago, DHFiend said:

No cup in history has been as boring to watch as the last two Americas Cups. While the beasts in SF were amazing and the stories from my friends on one of the teams were incredible to listen to, the last cup  reaching to the first mark, sailing inside a restricted digital stadium, was numbingly aweful to watch...

To be fair, the LV challenger series was more fun to watch than the Cup match itself. Watching Ainslie and Percy throw their toys was good entertainment.

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With the exception of a DOG match all AC classes are compromises, not sure why people have such an issue with that, how is a twin skin sail any different than not allowing trim tabs on the foils of an AC50 or allowing them to sail with both foils down or the myriad of other restrictions that were put on them? Even the fact they were only 50 feet long was pretty much a compromise. They are all basically there to either create the desired experience, keep things safe or reign in costs.

 

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"Tired statement"? It's a tired discussion with fuck all new to say. Move on.

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8 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

The mistake so many are making is in thinking the AC75 is a monohull. It's a neat trick, but it is really a thinly disguised multihull, a tri to be precise. The 'central" hull is what it sails on in lighter winds with the foils on the end of arms giving righting moment and acting like amas. Once up foiling, again, it behaves just like a tri. 

The reason why we have this design is because those choosing the type of boat had painted themselves into a corner regarding monohulls while knowing that monohulls were simply too slow and boring. It's the same with the rig. It is only there because they have needed to try to find a way of getting close to key features of a solid wing without actually having solid wings.

It stinks of compromise to save egos, rather than the best design solutions available.

my 2c

Maybe it's just time to rethink your definitions, rather than whine about them - I mean wasn't the last cat really a thinly disguised tri?

But if the AC75 is a 'tri' after all - so much the better, a nice continuum from AC35 then and one that should be comforting to those who cry "Back to a mono? - All is lost!"  ;)

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21 hours ago, AClass USA 230 said:

spectacular boats and racing

Spectacular? Yes.

Boats? Depends on your definition of boat.

Racing? GMAFB.

THIS is boat match racing. Gybesets, tacking duels, downwind blanketing, peelings, huge range of wind, racing tactics, they even had spinnakers FFS!

 

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Just now, chuso007 said:

Spectacular? Yes.

Boats? Depends on your definition of boat.

 Racing? GMAFB.

 THIS is boat match racing. Gybesets, tacking duels, downwind blanketing, peelings, huge range of wind, racing tactics, they even had spinnakers FFS!



 

so you're saying that the artemis VS ETNZ race with more overtakes than ever before was not match racing?

just because it didn't involve the same moves as you remember back when you were a boy doesn't mean it wasn't fucking good racing in the LV cup

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To be honest, I don't remember that race... And Youtube wasn't helpful.

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10 hours ago, chuso007 said:

To be honest, I don't remember that race... And Youtube wasn't helpful.

because you don't want to

don't blame others for your own issues

if you don't watch the racing because it isn't easily on youtube then you don't have the right to say what they should and shouldn't do

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11 hours ago, chuso007 said:

To be honest, I don't remember that race... And Youtube wasn't helpful.

There lies your problem. IMHO, it ranked as one of the best America's Cup match races I have watched. It had everything, including an unfortunate mistake by the umpires which meant that probably the best move of the whole AC/LV was called a foul when it wasn't, changing the whole result. It was almost worth it just for Ian Percy's reaction!

You seem to have an over romantic view of match racing. I don't have time to watch all of your video but in the first race there was 1 attempt at a lee bow which failed and after that the leader was in control. In the next, there was a comedy of errors. The NZ boat couldn't take the lead even with Stars and Stripes losing their headsail, they couldn't get past on the run even though it was clear they were faster, were blanketing with their kite and when they came to really apply pressure, they stuffed it by hitting the mark. You think all of that was great match racing?

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I have just looked through the video. What a bore! Where was all that great match racing? It simply did not happen. There was an odd lee bow but one boat dominated the other and there was no need to really engage. Sorry, but if you though that was good, then we have a very different definition of good match racing.

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2 hours ago, inebriated said:

because you don't want to

don't blame others for your own issues

if you don't watch the racing because it isn't easily on youtube then you don't have the right to say what they should and shouldn't do

LOL, You're obviously inebriated. Or twelve.

Really, it's funny that you actually think you can tell me what my rights are. The matches I saw on YT were so boring I'm pretty sure they can't be the one you are talking about.  But hey, if that's what you like, enjoy it mate. 

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2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Then we have a very different definition of good match racing.

We surely do.

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11 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

LOL, You're obviously inebriated. Or twelve.

Really, it's funny that you actually think you can tell me what my rights are. The matches I saw on YT were so boring I'm pretty sure they can't be the one you are talking about.  But hey, if that's what you like, enjoy it mate. 

what makes an america's cup interesting, please elaborate

does boatspeed of under 16 knots really create an exciting race?

or is it races that are decided from the start?

maybe two boats going opposite sides of the unrestricted course makes a good race for you. 

the world's fucking changing mate

if you want to watch the AC like it used to be, watch j-class

other than that, fuck off because the only way the ac is getting back to displacement yachts is if you win it which won't happen because you're clearly retarded

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22 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Spectacular? Yes.

Boats? Depends on your definition of boat.

Racing? GMAFB.

THIS is boat match racing. Gybesets, tacking duels, downwind blanketing, peelings, huge range of wind, racing tactics, they even had spinnakers FFS!

 

I stayed up and watched nearly all of this racing and loved it but time and technology move on and I enjoyed the action of San Francisco and Bermuda a lot more. Sorry mate, I disagree.

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1 hour ago, AClass USA 230 said:

I stayed up and watched nearly all of this racing and loved it but time and technology move on and I enjoyed the action of San Francisco and Bermuda a lot more. Sorry mate, I disagree.

Of course I'm not saying we should go back to 12mR's but I think, and I'm certainly not alone on this, that the America's Cup died in 2007 and was replaced by something else that some love and some don't, but it's definitely improvable...

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6 hours ago, inebriated said:

what makes an america's cup interesting, please elaborate Certainly not arguing with a tool like you.

does boatspeed of under 16 knots really create an exciting race? Of course it does

or is it races that are decided from the start? You mean like in SF 2014?

maybe two boats going opposite sides of the unrestricted course makes a good race for you. Better than a totally predictable course where boats always bang the corner.

the world's fucking changing mate. Look, we agree about something.

if you want to watch the AC like it used to be, watch j-class I wish...

other than that, fuck off because the only way the ac is getting back to displacement yachts is if you win it which won't happen because you're clearly retarded Better retarded than schizophrenic, you have two IACC boats crossing tacks on your avatar...

 

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Just now, chuso007 said:

 

Certainly not arguing with a tool like you.

-proceeds to argue my points

Of course it does

-why, because at your age you can actually follow the racing as opposed to now?

You mean like in SF 2014?

-not much AC happened in 2014... you mean 2013??? the organisers realised their mistakes and brought about the ac50 which contained more one-design parts and lead to closer racing. i don't think that ac34 was that great to watch like 35

Better retarded than schizophrenic, you have two IACC boats crossing tacks on your avatar...

i don't mind the iacc's, i just think that these new boats give similar enjoyment for us sailors and more for non sailors

win win

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On 7/17/2018 at 10:13 AM, chuso007 said:

Spectacular? Yes.

Boats? Depends on your definition of boat.

Racing? GMAFB.

THIS is boat match racing suitable for the planned retirement community. Gybesets, fruitless tacking duels, downwind blankets ( so you could nap), peelings and sunburn, men dressed in rugby sweaters like 1960s Ralph Lauren male models, huge range of wind, racing tactics that did not change the relative position of the boats (so that you didnt miss anything during your nap), they even had spinnakers and sails made of cloth like the ships of old  FFS...this is something you could sit down and enjoy with your grandparents!

 

I made it as far as  1 minute 40 secs into the video. Did I miss anything?. 

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2 hours ago, inebriated said:

Certainly not arguing with a tool like you.

Chuso has had those boobies bouncing on here for over 10 years.  Before I showed up.  And he has never handled himself in a tool like manner.

Try a different insult.  That one doesn't fit.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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2 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Chuso has had those boobies bouncing on here for over 10 years.  Before I showed up.  And he has never handled himself in a tool like manner.

Try a different insult.  That one doesn't fit.

WetHog  :ph34r:

+1

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I made it as far as  1 minute 40 secs into the video. Did I miss anything?. 

Dunno. Fell asleep on couch while watching. Amazing how watching grass grow excites a couple of people, a bit like cricket :)

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2 hours ago, WetHog said:

Chuso has had those boobies bouncing on here for over 10 years.  Before I showed up.  And he has never handled himself in a tool like manner.

Try a different insult.  That one doesn't fit.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Try reading who said that comment a bit more carefully please.

It was Chuso007 who said :

Quote

Certainly not arguing with a tool like you.

not inebriated. In post #27.

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The last cup was fantastic to watch (not just because the highly moneyed Oracle was beaten by ETNZ). 

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Does Curling have debates as boring as this one?

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Does Curling have debates as boring as this one?

Doubtful have you seen the pants they wear!

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9 hours ago, WetHog said:

Chuso has had those boobies bouncing on here for over 10 years.  Before I showed up.  And he has never handled himself in a tool like manner.

 Try a different insult.  That one doesn't fit.

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

9 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

+1

look who the tool is now

he wrote on a quote of me, i can't quote that that i know of

how about you two read shit properly before trying to take the high ground hey

image.thumb.png.108ae9dd27e95c5c8bbca7fdc8cb2aa7.png

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11 hours ago, NotSoFast said:

Try reading who said that comment a bit more carefully please.

It was Chuso007 who said :

not inebriated. In post #27.

Yup, he had just called me retarded...

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Anyway, it's obvious that some like some things and some like other, and that's good. Useless discussion really. 

I'm going to  Palma (Copa del Rey) next week to race on a 6mR class (modern) that  looks a lot like those 12mRs. Would I rather sail on a Swan 50? Probably... On a GC32? Maybe I would too, but I doubt it. I'm sure many of you feel diferently, and that's fine.

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16 hours ago, NotSoFast said:

Try reading who said that comment a bit more carefully please.

It was Chuso007 who said :

not inebriated. In post #27.

Ok, I missed that.  My point still stands.  Chuso has been on this site over 10 years and his reputation is solid.  He doesn't attack unless provoked.  Like being called a retard.  Chuso is usually up for a nice debate but its not necessary to insult him during said debate.  When debating someone with a reputation like Chuso the drunken kid/sock puppet needs to try harder.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, WetHog said:

Ok, I missed that.  My point still stands.  Chuso has been on this site over 10 years and his reputation is solid.  He doesn't attack unless provoked.  Like being called a retard.  Chuso is usually up for a nice debate but its not necessary to insult him during said debate.  When debating someone with a reputation like Chuso the drunken kid/sock puppet needs to try harder.

WetHog  :ph34r:

I'm with you, even if the Noob is downvoting us like an embarrasing 12 year old. I really got used to a more civil tone in the VOR forum, so calling someone names, and especially someone with a history hereabouts... well, I need to get used to that again, if I want to stay in this cesspit.

Seems the topic of this thread is reaaaallllly interesting... smilie_sleep_008.gif

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4 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I'm with you, even if the Noob is downvoting us like an embarrasing 12 year old. I really got used to a more civil tone in the VOR forum, so calling someone names, and especially someone with a history hereabouts... well, I need to get used to that again, if I want to stay in this cesspit.

Seems the topic of this thread is reaaaallllly interesting... smilie_sleep_008.gif

Speaking of thread topic, going back to the car hijack we had in this thread, or another one, on this site, look what car I got a couple months ago.

33tqovm.jpg

SWEET!!!

I'll post a better picture later.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

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^And you want me to approve of that??? :angry: I'm a Ford girl, and VW is our main competitor in GER.
(But I must admit, they build good cars, wouldn't buy a Diesel tho). :)

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

^And you want me to approve of that??? :angry: I'm a Ford girl, and VW is our main competitor in GER.
(But I must admit, they build good cars, wouldn't buy a Diesel tho). :)

Sorry, forgot.  I am a Ford Truck guy, and my wife drives a Ford SUV, but I"ve wanted a GTI/R since I was a teenager and I finally found a used R that checked all the boxes.  That, and the Focus ST/RT's are cool but to Fast and Furious for me.  I'm to old to own one of those.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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42 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Speaking of thread topic, going back to the car hijack we had in this thread, or another one, on this site, look what car I got a couple months ago.

33tqovm.jpg

SWEET!!!

I'll post a better picture later.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

I hate you Hoggy.....only cos I am jealous!

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18 hours ago, WetHog said:

Ok, I missed that.  My point still stands.  Chuso has been on this site over 10 years and his reputation is solid.  He doesn't attack unless provoked.  Like being called a retard.  Chuso is usually up for a nice debate but its not necessary to insult him during said debate.  When debating someone with a reputation like Chuso the drunken kid/sock puppet needs to try harder.

 WetHog  :ph34r:

he called me 12 before i provoked him at all

all i had said to him was that if he can't be fucked finding races because they weren't on youtube then he shouldn't be pointing the finger and saying what the AC should be lol

i don't give a fuck how "solid" his reputation is, he clearly isn't able to take people questioning his motives so i'll spit it right back.

and just because i say what i actually think doesn't mean i'm a sock puppet.

16 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I'm with you, even if the Noob is downvoting us like an embarrasing 12 year old. I really got used to a more civil tone in the VOR forum, so calling someone names, and especially someone with a history hereabouts... well, I need to get used to that again, if I want to stay in this cesspit.

Seems the topic of this thread is reaaaallllly interesting... smilie_sleep_008.gif

i'll fucking downvote you if you try to pin something on me that i didn't do, yeah

i'll question your opinions any day if i disagree with you which is fine and i won't downvote you

but why the fuck was the downvote made if i can't downvote someone calling me out for something i didn't do

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14 hours ago, The Main Man said:

I hate you Hoggy.....only cos I am jealous!

11ha3wy.jpg

WetHog  :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, nav said:

Looks like a 4ktsb ;)

It is but its fun to drive.  And with two daughters heading into their teens it will have to do, for now.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

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On 7/19/2018 at 6:09 AM, Rskiff said:

Dunno. Fell asleep on couch while watching. Amazing how watching grass grow excites a couple of people, a bit like cricket :)

How huge is the R Class these days? And if going fast is what it's all about, why aren't you sailing kitefoilers?

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