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jack the dull knife

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jack-the-dull-knife1-1.jpg

Former IOR warhorse Jacknife sitting the brush along RT 50 a few miles north of Easton Md. Its been there for years... What is the trail that this boat followed that led it here?

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Someone called it a lead mine, so a prospector came in with a chain saw?

 

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It's had more life's than Felix the Cat.

I remember seeing it getting washed up on the beach after the start of the 1983 Ft Lauderdale to Key West Race 

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A some point Jack Greenberg ditched that boat and the last Jacknife, I remember was a J41.

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YES THE LAST JACKNIFE WAS A J41 DOWN IN MIAMI.WE HAD 3 J41S ON THE BAY AT ONE TIME LOTS OF FUN.THE OTHER 2 WERE VICTORY AND GUNABARA.I MISS THOSE DAYS.ALL 3 WERE TOTALLY DIFFERENT AND MADE FOR SOME GOOD RACING. 

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7 hours ago, Editor said:

jack-the-dull-knife1-1.jpg

Former IOR warhorse Jacknife sitting the brush along RT 50 a few miles north of Easton Md. Its been there for years... What is the trail that this boat followed that led it here?

I know the place - it's a good spot to find old hardware, but, a field of broken dreams indeed. 

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I built JK and about  10 years ago I was driving down that Maryland road and spotted on the other side...very sad...this is when it was about ready to leave the shop on it's way to Snead Island Boat Works for commissioning...'tis me on the plank

IMG_0104.jpg

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the sailing pic is from the Nassau Cup with Imp to weather....RH is at the helm of JK

JK1.jpg

JK2.jpg

JK3.jpg

Jacknife.jpg

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That looks to be a damn fine yacht that has come to the end. Sad that so much beauty is cast aside

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Cmon man, the boat is 40 years old. The percentage of cars, trains, planes, boats or anything else that survives past 40 years  is severely limited.

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37 minutes ago, Parma said:

Cmon man, the boat is 40 years old. The percentage of cars, trains, planes, boats or anything else that survives past 40 years  is severely limited.

That depends on what you mean by severely limited...you might be surprised by planes (at least noncommercail -- we are not talking commercial boats here) and trains.

The average age of general aviation aircraft in US in 2001 was 28 (probably older now). If more than half are over 30 then you've got a significant number over 40.  Quick playing with largest GA aircraft resale websites looks like the average age resale  piston aircraft is ~40...so more than half are over 40...not severely limited. 

The average age of European train rolling stock is 30 years, UK rolling stock 21 with GWR at 32 and TFL at 38, averagea age US locomotives is 26. 

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Local lore has Jackknife being donated to the Naval Academy.  On a delivery from Block Island back to Annapolis and the yacht ends up grounding. A result of the grounding was a structurally unsound boat and later purchased by the Outboard Shop.

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

That depends on what you mean by severely limited...you might be surprised by planes (at least noncommercail -- we are not talking commercial boats here) and trains.

The average age of general aviation aircraft in US in 2001 was 28 (probably older now). If more than half are over 30 then you've got a significant number over 40.  Quick playing with largest GA aircraft resale websites looks like the average age resale  piston aircraft is ~40...so more than half are over 40...not severely limited. 

The average age of European train rolling stock is 30 years, UK rolling stock 21 with GWR at 32 and TFL at 38, averagea age US locomotives is 26. 

The last B52's will be nearing 100 Y.O. when they are finally taken out of service.

Lots of '55 Chevy's and '65 Mustangs on the road.

All it takes is someone to love them.

Holland mentions that boat as being built at the same time as Imp. Jack was the boat he sailed on in SORC that year. I suspect that's him on the helm in Blue's pic. I imagine it was the last pintail he designed after seeing the way Imp performed.

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37 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The last B52's will be nearing 100 Y.O. when they are finally taken out of service.

Lots of '55 Chevy's and '65 Mustangs on the road.

All it takes is someone to love them.

Holland mentions that boat as being built at the same time as Imp. Jack was the boat he sailed on in SORC that year. I suspect that's him on the helm in Blue's pic. I imagine it was the last pintail he designed after seeing the way Imp performed.

Actually Jack Knife was going to be Ron Holland's and Kiwi Boat's  boat for the 1977 SORC...they were not built at the same time...JK was out the door when word came that Ron and David Allen wanted to know if we could build one more before the SORC...IMP was started in October and delivered to Snead Island Boat Works for commissioning mid Jan...it was like going from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age....Dr Jack Greenberg wanted a racing "yacht"...with proper galley ,accommodations and aft owners stateroom...then came the almost anything goes IMP...not a One Ton...not a Two Ton rule boat...just a fast 40 footer...a very special 3 months....and every day since

IMG_0007.jpg

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

That depends on what you mean by severely limited...you might be surprised by planes (at least noncommercail -- we are not talking commercial boats here) and trains.

The average age of general aviation aircraft in US in 2001 was 28 (probably older now). If more than half are over 30 then you've got a significant number over 40.  Quick playing with largest GA aircraft resale websites looks like the average age resale  piston aircraft is ~40...so more than half are over 40...not severely limited. 

The average age of European train rolling stock is 30 years, UK rolling stock 21 with GWR at 32 and TFL at 38, averagea age US locomotives is 26. 

Not to hijack this topic, but I agree with your figures. Shows how much of an investment deficit is preparing itself to come crashing down on us.

That said, some loves are meant to last and some are not. In humans and in boats. And in my opinion, once you have sold a boat, you can always be fond of your memories, but you have no further say in its current handling or status...

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That boats been sitting there for at least 20 years.  Have made a lot of trips on that stretch of Rt 50 for trips to OC and back and forth to College.  Always wondered about it.

WetHog  :ph34r:

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This reminds of a conversation with a land developer when a group of people objected to a piece of land being developed - they wanted it to stay in it's original pristine condition. His response? Buy it.  It's very easy to be generous with other people's money. 

 

edit: biggest issue with some of those war horses? Takes an army to race them. I for one have tired of being part of a huge crew with most of the time spent on the rail.  And the J41? Looked great, was a dog. There were 2 of them here and the better funded one after not being able to sell it sank off NOLA while being delivered to Florida.  The crew was fine and rescued with all their gear.  The other sat around for years and was last seen in a bone yard.

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6 hours ago, LarryE said:

A some point Jack Greenberg ditched that boat and the last Jacknife, I remember was a J41.

Was it this one?  

J41 in Texas

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9 minutes ago, WCB said:

Was it this one?  

J41 in Texas

Listing says 1969, they are shortchanging themselves on the value of that gem.  Memory is that it was around 1984 when they were building them.  

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Dr.Greenberg's boat was blue and in excellent condition.

However that was 17 years ago.

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THE LAST TIME I HAD SEEN JACKNIFE SHE WAS IN THE NORTH EAST AROUND TEN YEARS AGO.HER SAIL NUMBER WAS 10000.WITH A WHITE PAINT JOB.

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4 hours ago, Parma said:

Cmon man, the boat is 40 years old. The percentage of cars, trains, planes, boats or anything else that survives past 40 years  is severely limited.

 

1 billion people will disagree with you ...    btw my boat is 53 years and counting and is doing just fine..

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2 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Actually Jack Knife was going to be Ron Holland's and Kiwi Boat's  boat for the 1977 SORC...they were not built at the same time...JK was out the door when word came that Ron and David Allen wanted to know if we could build one more before the SORC...IMP was started in October and delivered to Snead Island Boat Works for commissioning mid Jan...it was like going from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age....Dr Jack Greenberg wanted a racing "yacht"...with proper galley ,accommodations and aft owners stateroom...then came the almost anything goes IMP...not a One Ton...not a Two Ton rule boat...just a fast 40 footer...a very special 3 months....and every day since

IMG_0007.jpg

SailBlue, can you elaborate for us slightly younger people how this plug was made? (I'm assuming this is the plug and then the hull is laid on the outside?). Specifically did they loft the thing full size to get the shapes of the ribs, or optically project patterns onto the plywood from slides, or was there CNC routing by this time? Great to hear these old stories and it's sad, but one can appreciate that if the hull design is fundamentally not as good as modern shapes, there isn't much of a case to keep it. In that way it's very different from the B-52's and DeHavilland Beavers and such, which are not only closer to modern designs, but have the advantage that the key parts; the engine and electronics, can be kept up to date independent of the hull. 

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4 hours ago, Parma said:

Cmon man, the boat is 40 years old. The percentage of cars, trains, planes, boats or anything else that survives past 40 years  is severely limited.

Southern Star will have to disagree, she turned 40 this year .

SS3.jpg

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4 hours ago, Parma said:

Cmon man, the boat is 40 years old. The percentage of cars, trains, planes, boats or anything else that survives past 40 years  is severely limited.

Sort of depends on how it was built, and maintained... "Lioness" is 56 and still winning races and series in the local non spinnaker PHRF, biggest issue is having to change the shaft tunnel, packing gland and cutless bearing after all that time required the engine being pulled out and some custom machining. 

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46 minutes ago, Foiling Optimist said:

SailBlue, can you elaborate for us slightly younger people how this plug was made? (I'm assuming this is the plug and then the hull is laid on the outside?). Specifically did they loft the thing full size to get the shapes of the ribs, or optically project patterns onto the plywood from slides, or was there CNC routing by this time? Great to hear these old stories and it's sad, but one can appreciate that if the hull design is fundamentally not as good as modern shapes, there isn't much of a case to keep it. In that way it's very different from the B-52's and DeHavilland Beavers and such, which are not only closer to modern designs, but have the advantage that the key parts; the engine and electronics, can be kept up to date independent of the hull. 

Typically our lofting process in those days was to loft the drawing full scale on clear heavy Mylar taped over a plywood floor ...then for each station slightly oversize /butterflied P&S stations were slid under flexible battens that had been set upon the full sized line drawing for that station. A flat circular wheel with a pen tip sized hole in it's center with the radius of the skins and core thickness  and batten thickness (for subtraction) was pulled along the flexible batten transferring the deducted station shape to the plywood   ....CL- buttock lines...water lines were also transferred to each butterflied station, band saw cut to each station pen line  ....the frames were then stood up open port and starboard  on a strong back....water lines ..buttocks...CL's all set to each other...frames then striped with battens...battens strip planked with Masonite ...seams taped with packing tape...whole plug sealed and treated with mold release wax....inner skin...followed by Balsa core....some fairing and filling between balsa core gaps....outer skin......hours and hours of long board...

IMG_0001 (2).jpg

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Holy smokes, I had to read that two or three times. What a lot of work, but I guess it was pretty straight forward for an experienced crew if the plans were on point. Thanks SailBlue!

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2 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

THE LAST TIME I HAD SEEN JACKNIFE SHE WAS IN THE NORTH EAST AROUND TEN YEARS AGO.HER SAIL NUMBER WAS 10000.WITH A WHITE PAINT JOB.

STOP SHOUTING!!!!!

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3 hours ago, WCB said:

Was it this one?  

J41 in Texas

This is offered by the fella in North Texas that runs a non-profit dog rescue. Has boats all over the area. 

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1 hour ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Typically our lofting process in those days was to loft the drawing full scale on clear heavy Mylar taped over a plywood floor ...then for each station slightly oversize /butterflied P&S stations were slid under flexible battens that had been set upon the full sized line drawing for that station. A flat circular wheel with a pen tip sized hole in it's center with the radius of the skins and core thickness  and batten thickness (for subtraction) was pulled along the flexible batten transferring the deducted station shape to the plywood   ....CL- buttock lines...water lines were also transferred to each butterflied station, band saw cut to each station pen line  ....the frames were then stood up open port and starboard  on a strong back....water lines ..buttocks...CL's all set to each other...frames then striped with battens...battens strip planked with Masonite ...seams taped with packing tape...whole plug sealed and treated with mold release wax....inner skin...followed by Balsa core....some fairing and filling between balsa core gaps....outer skin......hours and hours of long board...

IMG_0001 (2).jpg

I worked at Kiwi several years after H2O. The custom boats were still built like that process, but foam had replaced balsa and they were no longer using the aluminum framework like Imp's.. The Kiwi mini tons and Kiwi 35s were built in standard female molds.

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Looks like Ron steering. What  diabolical stern sections those IOR dogs (not warhorses) had. Shows what happens when you get sucked into a rating system controlled by designers who can "improve" for next season's design at a cost of course ! Should have been laws passed to prevent waste of raw material ?

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3 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

Listing says 1969, they are shortchanging themselves on the value of that gem.  Memory is that it was around 1984 when they were building them.  

1985 to 1987 according to the Jboat site. I couldn't resist looking it up.

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35 minutes ago, armchairadmiral said:

Looks like Ron steering. What  diabolical stern sections those IOR dogs (not warhorses) had. Shows what happens when you get sucked into a rating system controlled by designers who can "improve" for next season's design at a cost of course ! Should have been laws passed to prevent waste of raw material ?

Since most racing was in displacement mode, not planing conditions, the distorted sterns didn't slow the boats as much as the rating benefit. That's why they were like that. Although some boats (especially pre '76) were a bitch downwind in a breeze, many of the boats sailed quite fine. The quality of the racing was top notch, we'll never see that again.  It seems that most of the IOR hate is from people who weren't there and didn't sail the boats. 

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2 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Typically our lofting process in those days was to loft the drawing full scale on clear heavy Mylar taped over a plywood floor... snip... ..followed by Balsa core....some fairing and filling between balsa core gaps....outer skin......hours and hours of long board...

 

So a couple questions :

How did you get the full size mylars of the stations from the desinger's drawings - I presume the designer drawings were maybe "D" or "E" sized scaled drawings. How did you go to full scale?

Also when building over a male plug, the "fairness" of the finished hull explicitly assumes that the hull thickness is uniform all over (skins, core) so as to exactly replicate the shape of the plug underneath. But local variations in cloth layers, resin content, even core thickness/compression will affect the hull "fairness". How was this controlled, or to what level could you control it? I know you bogged the hull to fill depressions that may have resulted, but did you also sand/grind down an unintentionally built-up area too? How would you tell the difference between a "valley" and two high spots (which one was "wrong"?) ?  Did you use a negative template of the stations? And yes, I know you had to do this to the pug first before you took a hull off it.

For a production boat made from a female mold, it seems easier - fair and bog the male plug, make the mold, then away you go.

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8 hours ago, Parma said:

Cmon man, the boat is 40 years old. The percentage of cars, trains, planes, boats or anything else that survives past 40 years  is severely limited.

23996299_WingsThroughtheYears.thumb.jpg.fbadf951213373d33dff9e4312e4a12d.jpg

A 40 year old boat can still be a damn fine boat if it was a good one to begin with and with care, love, and maintenance, can last much longer than that. My boat is 39 years old, and it's still a great boat in my opinion. Not as fast as newer designs though we still beat them boat for boat at times, and yes, it takes a big crew to race hard around the bouys but we have many wonderful days sailing short handedly and honestly, IOR reputation or not, the boat is generally pretty sweet handling. Just don't expect to go much over 9 knots even in a strong breeze.

But Parma's comment brings up another point. We throw away far too much. When you consider the amount of human effort that goes into building a sailboat, the amount of resources, the amount of time, all the creativity and invention, the idea that we should just discard it after a couple dozen years, or less, is appalling. How can we justify just tossing out all of that.  Don't just think about the hull. Consider all the equipment, much of it which remains with the discarded hulks we frequently see. Every piece of hardware, every spar, every old engine or radio...the list goes on, was created by someone, often with loving care by a team of someones, and a lot of it is still very useful. If you want to think about how much goes into a boat try to imagine this: If I gave you a workshop and all the raw materials, how long would it take you, by yourself, to build a whole boat? I mean the WHOLE boat; the mast, the engine, the radio, everything. I doubt that if you had 100 years you could build the whole boat (how long would it take you to make a IC for the radio?). So the total amount of effort, creativity, and resources which went into that boat represent a lot of human endeavor. Thousands of hours.  We shouldn't toss it out casually.

Finally, consider the cost to our planet of our throwaway culture. Just 'cause we can afford to discard that old boat and buy a new one does not mean that the planet's resources are infinite.

Here where I live I see old boats which were bought cheaply in California and sailed to Mexico on a lark. Then new owners get bored and just walk away. This makes me very sad.

Fred Roswold, SV Wings, Mexico

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

STOP SHOUTING!!!!!

It's might like Bill Stevens eyesite problem that all caps are used?

(That was always a fun read in the Anarchy sportboat thread!)

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lots of clever anecdotes here, but it won't change the fact that the marinas of the world are not full of 40+ y.o. boats. 

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42 minutes ago, JoeO said:

So a couple questions :

How did you get the full size mylars of the stations from the desinger's drawings - I presume the designer drawings were maybe "D" or "E" sized scaled drawings. How did you go to full scale?

Also when building over a male plug, the "fairness" of the finished hull explicitly assumes that the hull thickness is uniform all over (skins, core) so as to exactly replicate the shape of the plug underneath. But local variations in cloth layers, resin content, even core thickness/compression will affect the hull "fairness". How was this controlled, or to what level could you control it? I know you bogged the hull to fill depressions that may have resulted, but did you also sand/grind down an unintentionally built-up area too? How would you tell the difference between a "valley" and two high spots (which one was "wrong"?) ?  Did you use a negative template of the stations? And yes, I know you had to do this to the pug first before you took a hull off it.

For a production boat made from a female mold, it seems easier - fair and bog the male plug, make the mold, then away you go.

The designer provided drawings and a table of offsets. They were lofted to full-size by hand. H20 says on Mylar, when I was there they were lofted on plywood and transferred to plywood frames. I did some lofting there. It was pretty much the same as lofting anywhere. CAD was in its infancy, and seldom used then. The boats were mostly one of a kind, so building a female mold was pretty pointless. A builder I worked for about 1970 said minimum three boats needed to be built to make a plug/female mold financially sensible. IDK how true that was later, esp after the price of resin went way up.

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12 minutes ago, Parma said:

lots of clever anecdotes here, but it won't change the fact that the marinas of the world are not full of 40+ y.o. boats. 

Marinas have gotten expensive, so a 40 yo boat isn't likely to be kept in one. They're still out there. There's still a hell of a lot of old J-boats C&Cs and Hunters around, just to name a few.

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17 minutes ago, RKoch said:

The designer provided drawings and a table of offsets. They were lofted to full-size by hand. H20 says on Mylar, when I was there they were lofted on plywood and transferred to plywood frames. I did some lofting there. It was pretty much the same as lofting anywhere. CAD was in its infancy, and seldom used then. The boats were mostly one of a kind, so building a female mold was pretty pointless. A builder I worked for about 1970 said minimum three boats needed to be built to make a plug/female mold financially sensible. IDK how true that was later, esp after the price of resin went way up.

We did both Mylar and traditional wood loft floor....the advantage of Mylar was that the square footage of a loft floor space taken up by the plywood loft floor could be rolled up and moved out of the way....reopened later if for whatever reason some detail needed to be revisited....in the case of IMP this was particularly useful as  the aluminum "space frame" was fabricated off site under Ragnar's  Hawkenson's guidance ,at JTR in Gulfport, Florida and the Mylar loft floor went with him....and that was no easy task ....applause to Ragnar !

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Sweet okole sailed in the 1977 SORC also. Fininished 2nd overall to Imp, and first in class. 

Now sailing to Hawaii in Pac Cup, holding down 2nd in class!

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3 minutes ago, Kona G said:

Sweet okole sailed in the 1977 SORC also. Fininished 2nd overall to Imp, and first in class. 

Now sailing to Hawaii in Pac Cup, holding down 2nd in class!

Yep...she was at Snead Island Boat Works the same time as IMP pre 1977 SORC....

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J/41 10000out sailing in Buffalo tonight

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1 hour ago, Parma said:

lots of clever anecdotes here, but it won't change the fact that the marinas of the world are not full of 40+ y.o. boats. 

It would seem you haven't been in many marinas.

Most of the ones I cruise are FULL of old boats - decades old.

Most C&C 35's, Most Ericsons, Cals, Rangers, Columbias etc. etc. etc. are 40 years old or older.

I keep my boats in the biggest & best marina in B.C. and I'd venture to say that 1/2 the sailboats in it are getting towards that vintage or older.

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5 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Typically our lofting process in those days was to loft the drawing full scale on clear heavy Mylar taped over a plywood floor ...then for each station slightly oversize /butterflied P&S stations were slid under flexible battens that had been set upon the full sized line drawing for that station. A flat circular wheel with a pen tip sized hole in it's center with the radius of the skins and core thickness  and batten thickness (for subtraction) was pulled along the flexible batten transferring the deducted station shape to the plywood   ....CL- buttock lines...water lines were also transferred to each butterflied station, band saw cut to each station pen line  ....the frames were then stood up open port and starboard  on a strong back....water lines ..buttocks...CL's all set to each other...frames then striped with battens...battens strip planked with Masonite ...seams taped with packing tape...whole plug sealed and treated with mold release wax....inner skin...followed by Balsa core....some fairing and filling between balsa core gaps....outer skin......hours and hours of long board...

IMG_0001 (2).jpg

 

 

This is being chatted about in another thread about a guy rebuiilding an old wood boat. Spends about 40 minutes in two videos going over how he lofted/faired the lines full size on plywood...

 

 

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Does anyone know how they are doing modern custom boats like IMOCAs? I'm pretty sure they use female moulds and build the whole boat in place with its internal structure, then pop the top on which is also one big piece. If it was me I'd do the mould at Janicki Industries in Sedro Wolley Washington, where they have a 100' x 20' x 8' 5 axis milling machine out of one huge foam glue up. But I'm guessing they normally glue up out of smaller pieces of CNC cut foam and then manually fair them together?

Regarding Talley Ho, it would have been pretty neat to do the whole lofting in CAD and then CNC rout the white oak frames. I suggested that in the thread and some traditionalist didn't think I understood the point. Of rebuilding a 108 year old boat, I guess. Ironically, a wooden boat is much more like the old B-52s and such where you can selectively change out frames and the skin pieces since it's  riveted together, so eventually you could presumably have a completely different aircraft  that retained the "spirit" of the original. Good times....

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"I'd do the mould at Janicki Industries in Sedro Wolley"

That's cool, I used to work for Janicki, eons ago, before they got the 5 axis machine. They always were smart folks, but how they got into that end of the business, I never figured out.

There is some good boat building going on up north, Betts, Janicki, etc.

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02_P1050725.jpg

What you can do with some foam and largish cnc milling machine

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7 hours ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Typically our lofting process in those days was to loft the drawing full scale on clear heavy Mylar taped over a plywood floor ...then for each station slightly oversize /butterflied P&S stations were slid under flexible battens that had been set upon the full sized line drawing for that station. A flat circular wheel with a pen tip sized hole in it's center with the radius of the skins and core thickness  and batten thickness (for subtraction) was pulled along the flexible batten transferring the deducted station shape to the plywood   ....CL- buttock lines...water lines were also transferred to each butterflied station, band saw cut to each station pen line  ....the frames were then stood up open port and starboard  on a strong back....water lines ..buttocks...CL's all set to each other...frames then striped with battens...battens strip planked with Masonite ...seams taped with packing tape...whole plug sealed and treated with mold release wax....inner skin...followed by Balsa core....some fairing and filling between balsa core gaps....outer skin......hours and hours of long board...

IMG_0001 (2).jpg

This needs a new thread with a lot more pictures.

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Re J/41's...

When I got hooked on sailing (racing) as a kid in the 80's in DH dinghies, there was one J/41 prominently moored in our "arena" for a short period. Maybe a couple of years tops. It was the height of IOR and the beginning of IMS. To me the J/41 was the hottest boat within my sphere and perhaps part of the subconscious psychology that now has me racing keelboats many years later.

I got into the Kirby 25 at the peak of Levels while still racing dinghies, and while I loved that experience (trucks of Schlitz and all), the trap and small kite in big breeze were the only deep allure then. 

Now I have a J/30 approaching it's 40th and smile every time I get to its dock to give it some action. Lot's of work but it's been so great for so many people. Let's keep them going.

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4 hours ago, RKoch said:

There's still a hell of a lot of old J-boats C&Cs and Hunters around, just to name a few.

And Ericsons.  I just came back from a "rendezvous" in Genoa Bay (BC), easily half of the boats there were pre-1978.  None of them were newer than 1991.

I wouldn't trade mine for something newer.  Even if they threw in cash.

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Here's my Ole Girl.

She's 1970.

Cheers

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

CandC36R_pic.png

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15 minutes ago, Officebob said:

Here's my Ole Girl.

She's 1970.

Cheers

Bob

CandC36R_pic.png

36R?  Had one on Lake Erie that was red in the early 70's.

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True North ? <-----not 100% sure.

Glory Bea III (Chicago Mac 1971)  <-----100% sure.

Caliente <------present handle.

Died and went to Heaven <--------side effects of ownership of this Canuck masterpiece!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CandC36R_Picb_Portsidetoo.png

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For R Koch I was there and did sail the boats. But soon changed to the non IOR light displacement planing types as the opportunities arose. Never looked back ,so to speak, except to see those IOR boats in death rolls hulls down ,on the horizon behind !

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13 hours ago, wingssail said:

23996299_WingsThroughtheYears.thumb.jpg.fbadf951213373d33dff9e4312e4a12d.jpg

A 40 year old boat can still be a damn fine boat if it was a good one to begin with and with care, love, and maintenance, can last much longer than that. My boat is 39 years old, and it's still a great boat in my opinion. Not as fast as newer designs though we still beat them boat for boat at times, and yes, it takes a big crew to race hard around the bouys but we have many wonderful days sailing short handedly and honestly, IOR reputation or not, the boat is generally pretty sweet handling. Just don't expect to go much over 9 knots even in a strong breeze.

But Parma's comment brings up another point. We throw away far too much. When you consider the amount of human effort that goes into building a sailboat, the amount of resources, the amount of time, all the creativity and invention, the idea that we should just discard it after a couple dozen years, or less, is appalling. How can we justify just tossing out all of that.  Don't just think about the hull. Consider all the equipment, much of it which remains with the discarded hulks we frequently see. Every piece of hardware, every spar, every old engine or radio...the list goes on, was created by someone, often with loving care by a team of someones, and a lot of it is still very useful. If you want to think about how much goes into a boat try to imagine this: If I gave you a workshop and all the raw materials, how long would it take you, by yourself, to build a whole boat? I mean the WHOLE boat; the mast, the engine, the radio, everything. I doubt that if you had 100 years you could build the whole boat (how long would it take you to make a IC for the radio?). So the total amount of effort, creativity, and resources which went into that boat represent a lot of human endeavor. Thousands of hours.  We shouldn't toss it out casually.

Finally, consider the cost to our planet of our throwaway culture. Just 'cause we can afford to discard that old boat and buy a new one does not mean that the planet's resources are infinite.

Here where I live I see old boats which were bought cheaply in California and sailed to Mexico on a lark. Then new owners get bored and just walk away. This makes me very sad.

Fred Roswold, SV Wings, Mexico

So true.

 

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17 hours ago, ROADKILL666 said:

THE LAST TIME I HAD SEEN JACKNIFE SHE WAS IN THE NORTH EAST AROUND TEN YEARS AGO.HER SAIL NUMBER WAS 10000.WITH A WHITE PAINT JOB.

The J/41 Jack Knife is now in Buffalo.  She is now called Bada Bing and was sitting in the yard for a decade before bing donated to a sailing school last fall. The prior owner poured lots of cash into her with little return.

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13 hours ago, Parma said:

lots of clever anecdotes here, but it won't change the fact that the marinas of the world are not full of 40+ y.o. boats. 

Well...one of my boats is 70, another 87 and one  from 1965. The marina here is full of antique yachts.

anyway, I see tons of 1960’s boats floating everywhere I look. Fiberglass and not going anywhere unless you crush them into little pieces

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IMG_1770 j41.jpg

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SHE STILL LOOKS GOOD.AFTER HURRICANE ANDREW SHE HAD J39 KEEL PUT ON.

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10 hours ago, KC375 said:

02_P1050725.jpg

What you can do with some foam and largish cnc milling machine

There’s a company near me Marine Concepts, Sarasota that does a lot of tooling for the marine industry as well as others. It is virtually all  5 axis CNC router. A old Boatbuilding friend has worked for them for many years and he gave me a leisurely tour. It is simply amazing. In the photo above the styrofoam would be cut a cm deeper then a high density foam sprayed over the plug then CNC cut to final dimensions. So precise and symmetrical. 

http://www.marineconcepts.com

 

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14 hours ago, RKoch said:

The designer provided drawings and a table of offsets. They were lofted to full-size by hand.

That's what I thought - basically a set of x/y coordinates for a number of points on each offset/section... plot them on the plywood, then connect (spline) them with  a batten to get a smooth curve. right?

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10 hours ago, Officebob said:

Here's my Ole Girl.

She's 1970.

Cheers

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

CandC36R_pic.png

I wonder about the 36R  -  had a crush on her when I was 11 years old. Can you tell us more? How many were made? Do you still race her? What does she sail like? Pix of her sailing? 

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HI kurthoehne

My Hull # is 1.

I've been told 1 to 3! 

I think there are two and the other is in Salem MA.

I am stepping up from a C&C 27 MKIII.

This boat sails easy and loves a reach.

Will send some pics  after I get back from 3 week race/cruise.

Cheers

 

Bob

P.S. She has really neat pipe births up forward. Bruckmann stick built. Easy to work on.

 

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On 7/18/2018 at 10:17 AM, Parma said:

Cmon man, the boat is 40 years old. The percentage of cars, trains, planes, boats or anything else that survives past 40 years  is severely limited.

7.jpg.5a6b1912ec59a7ea4d9510512fbe6237.jpgThree years to go on our 1981 J/36.  Passed a J/120 in a race last month.  

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That pic of Jacknife sailing with the spinnaker is great. that is one of the original spinnaker s built for the boat by mark wood

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13 hours ago, pasta514 said:

This needs a new thread with a lot more pictures.

H2O has previously posted many pictures of projects at Kiwi, inc many of Imp and several of Eyghtene (pre-Kiwi). Lots of 1/2 toners too.

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3 hours ago, JoeO said:

That's what I thought - basically a set of x/y coordinates for a number of points on each offset/section... plot them on the plywood, then connect (spline) them with  a batten to get a smooth curve. right?

Yes, exactly. One boat I lofted there had drawings and offsets so poor that it was nearly designing from scratch, using the drawing as just a styling guide. But generally the designs were accurate.

Once a  boat was lofted, a batten was placed in line with a section and held in place with 'fingers' lightly nailed down...similar to using spline weights. Thin ply was slipped under the batten, and the batten's curve transferred to the ply to become a pattern. 

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IMG_1770 j41.jpg

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Nice. The J/41 was one of the best looking 30.5 One Tonners IMO.

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(Dragging back to original topic) Jacknife hasn't moved from its current location as long as I've known it since 1995. Whatever fuck up brought it there -- grounding at the hands of midshipmen or something similar -- was probably sometime in the mists of the mid-80s.

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13 hours ago, Myouri said:

IMG_1770 j41.jpg

Now that is a steep wave.

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I thought it was an equatorial sailing pic!

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3 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Now that is a steep wave.

I thought they were just sailing back uphill!

- Stumbling

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11 hours ago, Myouri said:

IMG_1770 j41.jpg

That picture brought back some fun memories!   I got to know the Jack Knife team in 1986.   I raced against them in Miami-MoBay that year and partied with them in Charlotte Amalie and Antigua.    At MoBay, the Montego Bay Yacht Club had Johnny Walker Red umbrellas over the tables outside around the pool.   Early one morning before all the boats left, there was an announcement over the loud speakers, in an Jamaican accent: "Will the persons who stole the umbrella please return it, or we will be really, really maaadd!"   It was not on our boat, so I did not think much of it.   At Antigua, the umbrella appeared on Jack Knife's entry in the $50ec (Easter Caribbean Currency) boat race on lay day.   I have pictures, but I am too far from home to post them.   Will do it when I get back in a couple of months.

I was a sailing street person in Antigua for Race Week and would sleep on a different deck of a boat each night I was there.   I could smell rain coming at the evening party and would find someone who had a spare berth down below or under cover when I sensed rain in the offing.   I slept on Man-O-War (J-35, delivered her to Antigua), Jack Knife (J-41), Zoom (Swan 651), a couple of cruising boats with awnings and Adrenaline (Kiwi 35.)   Sleeping on the deck of the Kiwi was the worst.  When ever anyone moved and upset the balance, the boat would roll until a wing touched the water, which woke most everyone up.

- Stumbling

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