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kent_island_sailor

Are there any conservatives anymore?

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Just wondering - most of people I know that proudly proclaimed themselves "conservatives" are nothing remotely resembling one. They are willing to change their opinions on pretty much anything 180 degrees in a heartbeat to keep aligned with whatever Trump said 20 minutes ago.

They would seem to qualify as radicals to me.

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Conservatives are only conservatives when their boys or girls are in government..the rest of the time they're known as carpetbaggers,

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Not radicals. Most "conservatives" have been seduced by the big money culture in politics and government. The are very few who actually believe in less government and more individual choice. What a radical idea of having fewer people employed with tax money and depending on the private sector. Most tout their own special interests like oil, coal or steel and try to pay for these businesses with cuts from other areas.

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35 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Just wondering - most of people I know that proudly proclaimed themselves "conservatives" are nothing remotely resembling one. They are willing to change their opinions on pretty much anything 180 degrees in a heartbeat to keep aligned with whatever Trump said 20 minutes ago.

They would seem to qualify as radicals to me.

Fucking hell did you happen to also notice that the term "liberal" has somehow transmuted into postmodern, neo-Marxist, collectivist, hypocrite, warmonger? 

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20 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Not radicals. Most "conservatives" have been seduced by the big money culture in politics and government. The are very few who actually believe in less government and more individual choice. What a radical idea of having fewer people employed with tax money and depending on the private sector. Most tout their own special interests like oil, coal or steel and try to pay for these businesses with cuts from other areas.

Sounds like a plea for the elusive "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" unicorn.

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26 minutes ago, bridhb said:

Sounds like a plea for the elusive "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" unicorn.

Not elusive at all....That would be the Democratic establishment...Obama, Clinton, etc.  

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Just wondering - most of people I know that proudly proclaimed themselves "conservatives" are nothing remotely resembling one. They are willing to change their opinions on pretty much anything 180 degrees in a heartbeat to keep aligned with whatever Trump said 20 minutes ago.

 They would seem to qualify as radicals to me.

Trump has done wonders for separating those that like to use "conservatism" as an excuse from those that actually practice what they preach. Just look around these forums for a few examples. The smart conservatives mostly fled and of those that remained, over half seem to have outed themselves as "party before principle" folks, willing to jump into bat for Trump, over things they remained silent about when Obama was president, because of the letter after his name*.

Most politicians try to give their base plausible deniability. Trump didn't plan to get the job in the first place and certainly isn't expecting to keep it. Why bother giving supporters a fig leaf for his actions when he doesn't need them anymore? 

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I don't think you will get any consensus on this discussion until you define "liberal" and "conservative".  Good luck with that. 

 

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12 minutes ago, bugger said:

I don't think you will get any consensus on this discussion until you define "liberal" and "conservative".  Good luck with that. 

 

Classic definitions are easy. You are confusing DemocRat with Liberal and Conservative with Republican. Common misunderstanding.

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You will the find that for however long the definition of liberal and conservative is on a moving scale and what is acceptable and what is not depends on who said it. Look at the left prior to and post Bill Clinton, having sex with someone other then your spouse was bad. During his term, its between a man and his wife (and his 20 year old intern). Opposite with the Right, fucking a porn star is bad. Unless its your guy, in which case he paid the whore why is she bitching?

You know what else is different, moderates. You can't find a fiscal conservative with liberal social views anymore. They are out there but they are so tired of their views being ripped by both sides they tend to shut up. Can't tell you how many times I have agreed with someone who was expecting me to disagree and they have argued with me about the point I was agreeing with them. Its all knee jerk politics. 

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Kent - are you referring to individuals or Elected Officials in your question?     I'm definitely a righty - but, consider myself to be a pragmatic conservative, not a Capital Letter R.   Where are you trying to go with the question? 

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The true conservatives who remain steadfast to their values are now called RINOs. 

Conservatives are no longer important in GOP primaries. 

Similarly, Christians who believe in piety, charity and humility are no longer important in the Evangelical movement. They’ve been supplanted by amoral profiteers who want to spread their influence & power. 

There is a moral leadership vacuum in America, which the GOP proclaims Trump is filling. 

Pathetic. 

The Catholic Church pedophile scandal and the distortion of facts coercing America to war and torture is having a corrosive effect upon our nation. Turns out it’s not gays and single moms that are the moral lapses that jeapordize a nation. It’s rich white men full of themselves & power.

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I am not talking about PA posters, more people I have known for decades.

It used to be conservatives were conservative, they disliked change.

They remembered when the government was small and cheap and wanted to return to that. They were afraid Democrats were going to spend money with no tax income to match and run up the national debt.

They didn't want government telling private industry what to do.

They believed the USA was a beacon of hope and a symbol of freedom for the world to admire and hopefully emulate.

They were sure the USSR/Russia was an enemy and were afraid the Democrats were infested with a bunch of leftists from pinko colleges that just wanted to be friends with the nice Russians. They had build up a postwar alliance that benefited the USA hugely.

They were big on "Christian family values" and disliked what they say as creeping immorality. They were afraid the godless valueless left would be having gay marriage, gay teachers, 3 ways, sex outside of marriage, sex before marriage, 4 ways, mongolian clusterfucks, and pretty much every kind of perversion someone like Donald Trump or Bill Clinton would indulge in while partying with Epstein on his pervy-island.

They believed in the dignity of the office and at least pretending to be presidential in  public. Say what you will about Reagan, but he damn well knew how to play his role and read his lines. if interns were blowing him, he at least kept them under the desk.

Trump can shit all over every bit of this and they pretty much now all agree the shit smells great and tastes better :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am not talking about PA posters, more people I have known for decades.

It used to be conservatives were conservative, they disliked change.

They remembered when the government was small and cheap and wanted to return to that. They were afraid Democrats were going to spend money with no tax income to match and run up the national debt.

They didn't want government telling private industry what to do.

They believed the USA was a beacon of hope and a symbol of freedom for the world to admire and hopefully emulate.

They were sure the USSR/Russia was an enemy and were afraid the Democrats were infested with a bunch of leftists from pinko colleges that just wanted to be friends with the nice Russians. They had build up a postwar alliance that benefited the USA hugely.

They were big on "Christian family values" and disliked what they say as creeping immorality. They were afraid the godless valueless left would be having gay marriage, gay teachers, 3 ways, sex outside of marriage, sex before marriage, 4 ways, mongolian clusterfucks, and pretty much every kind of perversion someone like Donald Trump or Bill Clinton would indulge in while partying with Epstein on his pervy-island.

They believed in the dignity of the office and at least pretending to be presidential in  public. Say what you will about Reagan, but he damn well knew how to play his role and read his lines.

Trump can shit all over every bit of this and they pretty much now all agree the shit smells great and tastes better :rolleyes:

It's been 90+ years since government was small and cheap. It was the cause of isolationism due to a weak military, great inequity of wealth, no safety net, no worker or environmental protections, weak financial institutions suspect able to fraud, child labor, and endemic racism. While an expanded Federal govt isn't perfect, it has led to tremendous improvements towards a responsible and civilized society. Republicans want to return to the neo-feudalistic aspects of the Guilded Age, if not outright slavery of the plantation society.

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19 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Identity politics hit the conservative movement like a Mack truck and left an anti-knowledge white-nationalist misogynist ruin.

Funny to hear a lefty complaining about identity politics.    I think you're right to complain, BTW - Identity politics is divisive BS, but, it's been a staple of the left for ages, and now the Rs have caught up and passed the Ds in the race to the gutter. 

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

You are confusing DemocRat with Liberal and Conservative with Republican. Common misunderstanding.

I am not the least confused and I made no such allusion. 

The OP asked if there are conservatives.  I am asking for a definition of conservatives.  A definition of liberals would futrher clarify the discussion.  

You're not used to debating where the first step is often to ensure the clear definition of terms, are you?  

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1 minute ago, bugger said:

I am not the least confused and I made no such allusion. 

The OP asked if there are conservatives.  I am asking for a definition of conservatives.  A definition of liberals would futrher clarify the discussion.  

You're not used to debating where the first step is often to ensure the clear definition of terms, are you?  

The definitions are absolutely clear to anyone willing to use a search engine. In most policy positions, I am a “Classic Liberal”. Pretty much the same as the Jeffersonian wing of the founders. I’ve posted that definition many times. You can do your own homework.

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19 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Funny to hear a lefty complaining about identity politics.    I think you're right to complain, BTW - Identity politics is divisive BS, but, it's been a staple of the left for ages, and now the Rs have caught up and passed the Ds in the race to the gutter. 

I see a fundamental difference between "i'm a black lesbian, here is my story, what's yours?" and the current republican party implementation of "i'm an old white man, here's my fiction, I don't give a fuck about you"

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12 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

I see a fundamental difference between "i'm a black lesbian, here is my story, what's yours?" and the current republican party implementation of "i'm an old white man, here's my fiction, I don't give a fuck about you"

I'm sure that you do see things that way - and that's a problem.  

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I'm sure that you do see things that way - and that's a problem.  

That we all have an identity shaped by our experiences in life and those experiences are colored by race and gender is a problem? It's inescapable, it's human nature. The key is the asking what others storys are and giving them standing on the issue too. And that's what the Republicans/Conservatives are utterly unwilling to do now. They don't give a fuck what anyone elses story or opinion is unless it confirms the ever changing Trump fiction.

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7 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

That we all have an identity shaped by our experiences in life and those experiences are colored by race and gender is a problem? It's inescapable, it's human nature. The key is the asking what others storys are and giving them standing on the issue too. And that's what the Republicans/Conservatives are utterly unwilling to do now. They don't give a fuck what anyone elses story or opinion is unless it confirms the ever changing Trump fiction.

Please tell me in our discussions here how much of this you've seen coming from others on the left?   I  agree with you, BTW - but I see damn little effort being expended anywhere to make that happen.  I'm trying - but, I'm just one anonymous asshole on an internet forum. 

 

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45 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

There are conservatives, they just are not in the GOP. 

Elitist

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4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Epiphone Casino Elitist?   very nice guitars. 

Coastal elitist, clearly.

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3 hours ago, bugger said:

 I am asking for a definition of conservatives. 

Buckley had the best definition of them;

A Conservative is a fellow who is standing athwart history yelling 'Stop!' William F. Buckley, Jr.

Which wonderfully illustrates the idiotic futility of the conservative mindset.
 

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Seems we have very few liberals if a liberal is as the word implies, one who promotes liberty.

Liberty:  The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

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7 minutes ago, Dog said:

Seems we have very few liberals if a liberal is as the word implies, one who promotes liberty.

aside from the libertarian party of children most adults realize that there is some trade off between liberty & a functional society

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16 minutes ago, Dog said:

Seems we have very few liberals if a liberal is as the word implies, one who promotes liberty.

Liberty:  The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

Which just goes to show the stupidity of the right wingers constantly throwing "lib" around at pragmatists and centrists.

Actually, at anyone other than fanatical right wingers.

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4 hours ago, RKoch said:

It's been 90+ years since government was small and cheap. It was the cause of isolationism due to a weak military, great inequity of wealth, no safety net, no worker or environmental protections, weak financial institutions suspect able to fraud, child labor, and endemic racism. While an expanded Federal govt isn't perfect, it has led to tremendous improvements towards a responsible and civilized society. Republicans want to return to the neo-feudalistic aspects of the Guilded Age, if not outright slavery of the plantation society.

I did not mean to imply that last was all true and correct or that I thought those things, but that they used to be core conservative principles. I recall when conservatives - and myself - were outraged at seemed like Jimmy Carter's utter pussification of our country. Well please don't take any more hostages or I will complain loudly and crash more airplanes into each other for your amusement :rolleyes:

Well that was then and now Trump completely outdoes Carter by pretty much sucking Putin off in public and I have heard earnest explanations of how Trump is doing the best possible job dealing with him :lol: The lure of "winning", even lead by Russia, seems to overwhelm principle, patriotism, and morality with hardy an issue.

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Please tell me in our discussions here how much of this you've seen coming from others on the left?   I  agree with you, BTW - but I see damn little effort being expended anywhere to make that happen.  I'm trying - but, I'm just one anonymous asshole on an internet forum. 

 

Yup - identity politics is a curse on both houses. Sure Black Lesbians have issues, but when the Black Lesbians declare war on the Hispanic tranny lesbians who vow to take the fight to the white bisexual vegans if it is the last thing they do, the left can dissolve into their own idiotic civil war while they lose the big picture. That end of the leftish spectrum is mainly just silly. They are too fractured to do anything harmful. The ones campaigning to replace "female" and "male" with "owners of penises" and "owners of vaginas" are good for laughs. They aren't going to shoot me.

OTOH the recent stoking of white christian nationalism by the Rs is much more dangerous. They are *already* by far the leading source of terrorism on US soil.

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40 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Yup - identity politics is a curse on both houses. Sure Black Lesbians have issues, but when the Black Lesbians declare war on the Hispanic tranny lesbians who vow to take the fight to the white bisexual vegans if it is the last thing they do, the left can dissolve into their own idiotic civil war while they lose the big picture. That end of the leftish spectrum is mainly just silly. They are too fractured to do anything harmful. The ones campaigning to replace "female" and "male" with "owners of penises"(1.) and "owners of vaginas" are good for laughs. They aren't going to shoot me (2.).

OTOH the recent stoking of white christian nationalism by the Rs is much more dangerous. They are *already* by far the leading source of terrorism on US soil.

1.  For a large percentage of those guys the situation is pretty much vice versa, seems to me.

2.  Except for Valerie Solanas, but she shot a gay/bi/poly guy. (Go ahead, look it up.)

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8 hours ago, chinabald said:

You will the find that for however long the definition of liberal and conservative is on a moving scale and what is acceptable and what is not depends on who said it. Look at the left prior to and post Bill Clinton, having sex with someone other then your spouse was bad. During his term, its between a man and his wife (and his 20 year old intern). Opposite with the Right, fucking a porn star is bad. Unless its your guy, in which case he paid the whore why is she bitching?

You know what else is different, moderates. You can't find a fiscal conservative with liberal social views anymore. They are out there but they are so tired of their views being ripped by both sides they tend to shut up. Can't tell you how many times I have agreed with someone who was expecting me to disagree and they have argued with me about the point I was agreeing with them. Its all knee jerk politics. 

 

BINGO! as well for those of us with socially moderate views

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46 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

CTLF334.gif

It's not nice to pick on Dog like that. He gets all tetchy about it. ;) 

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