xyzzy

What went wrong with my tooside painting?

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After reading everything I could find, watching videos, buying Russel Brown's phamphlet, and practicing on my transom on the last haul out was a disaster.  A week of working on the boat after work until midnight for prep wasted.  Sanding it again now.

I used Wooster red feather rollers that people here raved about.  But afterwards everyone at the yard said you got to use foam.  I now have some Epifanes high density foam mini rollers with domed ends.

It was supposed to be 79° when we started painting at 1:00 PM.  Mixed paint at 12:40.  Thinned initially with 5 oz 2333N to 44 oz mixed paint.  About 11%.  Practiced on a sheet of glass and it didn't seem to be leveling well.  Added about 7.5 more oz.

I tipped with this Seagull 3" brush  soaked it in 2333N and shook it off before starting.  Did not dip it in the paint.  Should I do that?  How about a foam brush?

The paint seemed ok for roller stipple, but there were vertical lap marks.  So we tipped, which got those.  But the tipping left horizontal lines that never leveled out.

The next day it looked like some kind of a lapstrake finish, with 1/4" horizontal stripes.  Seemed like more paint on the bottom of the stripes.

We rolled about 1' wide sections, with the topsides about 3' tall, before tipping.

I'll see if I can attach some photos.  It's really hard to get the paint and not a reflection of something on the paint.

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We went through this thing with my mates boat. Sanded it back down and called another mate to vinyl wrap it. Looked amazing. 

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In a nutshell, your paint isn't thinned enough or you are letting it dry out too quickly before tipping.

When I used roll and tip on my boat years ago, I found that I needed to use foam rollers (after testing the paint thinners don't disintegrate them!) and the best natural bristle brush for tipping I could afford (actually two - see below). Next, I found that I had to add a lot more thinners then suggested (but I was using industrial linear polyurtethane paint, so not a known paint for rolling and tipping, and it was late spring in the tropics at the time) until the paint had the look and feel of milk (it was white paint). In fact the paint was so thin, I ended up doing six coats instead of the usual two or three, but I attribute that to the type of paint used and it's suitability to roll and tip in the prevailing weather.

To apply, you need to work the paint with the roller in random directions to prevent the lap marks. The result should be a coating free of stroke marks, but full of tiny air bubbles. The brush is then dragged, clean and dry and lightly in a single direction to basically pop the bubbles and smooth out the paint. You should start by tipping along the line of your previously tipped paint, and finish at the wet edge of the new paint. The reason for the two brushes is that your helper can clean the brush in solvent and allow it to dry whilst you use the alternative brush because after a while, the brush will gather paint and can start to drag lines in the wet paint as you tip. The general suggestion is that one person should paint while another tips. I found that the best method for working fast is to have one person roll and tip, whilst the helper keeps the tipping brush clean and adds more thinner to the paint tray as the thinner evaporates out. As mentioned, this was a job painted in the tropics near the start of summer, so this might not be as big a problem where you are.

 

 

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Are you using brushing thinner AKA slow thinner. If not try some.

Use the glass test piece and only paint when it levels out without sagging.

NB if conditions change you may need to readjust the thinning.  

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The difference between professional boat painters and amateur boat painters is that amateurs learn on their own boats.

A pro from Antigua once told me the secret is in the alcohol. If the paint doesn't go on well, you put alcohol in to the paint. If it does go on well, you put the alcohol in your mouth. There's a conservation of alcohol that's intrinsic to the process. Use more.

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I have to admit I've never done it but from my understanding, this is your issue.  The good guys used to stand shoulder to shoulder for the whole boat.

5 hours ago, xyzzy said:

We rolled about 1' wide sections, with the topsides about 3' tall, before tipping.

 

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There were two of us, and we tried to work as fast as possible.  We did a 26' boat, 51' linear feet of topsides, in about 30 minutes, so something like 30 second to do each foot.  That fast enough?  We were working so fast as it was that we did a shit job with lots of holidays.

Someone who looked at the work said maybe too much thinner and it ran.  Russel Brown's pamphlet said 15% and I figure I was at 28%.  I did use the Interlux brushing reducer for Perfection.

Seems like it doesn't matter, either it it works or it doesn't.  Use foam roller, use red feather rollers.  Tip or don't tip.  Use a bristle brush or use foam.  Tip with a dry brush, or solvent soaked, or wet it with paint.  Thin 15% or thin more.

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4 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

I have to admit I've never done it but from my understanding, this is your issue.  The good guys used to stand shoulder to shoulder for the whole boat.

 

We were as close as we could get without trying share a ladder.  The issue to with doing shorter distances is that the brush handle from tipping gets in the way of the roller, so you can't roll and tip at the same time.

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This seems to show what happened the best.  The pattern at the top-left is fence reflecting in the paint.

IMG_20180721_185224.thumb.jpg.44b46da8c2319b2e86c01a88c5e086a1.jpg

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too much paint, better to do multiple coats as mentioned plus red is a shit of a colour for coverage. LPU self levels, so dont go over it once its been on for a minute or two, better to leave runs until tomorrow and sand off. 15 a side sounds too fast, go back to basics and get a smooth foam roller for solvent based paint. They all crap out some faster than others so change them occasionally. If you do it right you can pop the bubbles with a dry roller but a super light touch with a clean washed brush is the way to go. If you do thin coats youll get  plenty of practice. 

Bite the bullet and sand it back to fair and try again.

 

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I can tell you my local guy uses the fooler brushes and they work pretty well.  Thin, multiple coats just like doing a kitchen table.  It's just another type of poly after all.  Did I mention thin coats?  And multiple?

Red is a tough color - I was warned away from because it's hard to paint and tends to chalk up.

If you end up with a job like that, there's never any shame in sanding it smooth then throwing a clearcoat on it either.

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Check this out

notice he works from dry to wet, very considered rhythmic movements, no stress in the timing as the paint is not going off fast i.e the right reducer.

or the old boys in action;

 

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I used Perfection on my transom.  Flag blue...another fun color. Thinned per instructions.   I just used the foam roller to roll and the another to lightly pop the bubbles.  Came out well except for the dust which I lightly carefully buffed out.

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By no means an expert, but if you have lap lines from the roller, there is too much paint on it or you have not evened it out on the roller. I believe RB recommends rolling on a bit of plywood first to prevent this. Also, on vertical topsides, I think it a lot easier to tip up and down rather than back and forth. Any brush will create ridges to some extent, these become waterlines if you go sideways and either tend to stay there from surface tension, or create sags when the tension breaks. Go vertically and they need only to level out sideways (and can go two directions rather than just down). 

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17 hours ago, Moonduster said:

The difference between professional boat painters and amateur boat painters is that amateurs learn on their own boats.

A pro from Antigua once told me the secret is in the alcohol. If the paint doesn't go on well, you put alcohol in to the paint. If it does go on well, you put the alcohol in your mouth. There's a conservation of alcohol that's intrinsic to the process. Use more.

 

after about a 12 pack, the paint job will look awesome, especially, that tic-tac-toe pattern on the stern..

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also, from the manu instrs,

Quote

However, a maximum of 10% by volume of Brushing Reducer 2333N is about the correct amount of thinner to properly reduce Perfection
for brush or roller application. It  should  be  realized  that  Brushing  Reducer  2333N for  brushing  is  a  slow  evaporating
  solvent  and  can  be  used  to  modify  Spray Reducer  2316N for  spraying  to  slow  paint  set-up  and  improve  leveling.
 It  is  the  judicious  use  of  solvent  which  often  means  the difference between just an average paint job and an excellent one.

http://www.yachtpaint.com/LiteratureCentre/perfection-bulletin-usa-eng.pdf

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After I sanded for 13.5 hours in 90 degree heat Sunday with help from a crew member for 3 of those, I had it ready to paint again this morning.

This time I thinned a bit less.  While the manual states 10% thinning going up to 15%, everyone who's done it and had good results says to thin 15% or more.  This time I was about 20%.  Also had a third person helping and added capfulls as we went.  And I dipped the bush in thinner every so often to try to clean it.

We started at 8:30 AM instead of 1:00 PM and it was cooler and less sun.  That helped a lot.  The side still in the shade was easier.

We also tipped vertically.  What DDW said about waterlines sounds accurate.  But everyone in the videos tips sideways.  Instead of red feather rollers we used epifanes high density foam, one roller laster the whole boat, about an hour, as we worked slower this time.  I think the domed end of the foam rollers helped to reduce stoke lines.

Working vertically didn't just reduce the waterlines, it also let us tip faster after applying paint.  The problem with sideways tipping is you need enough space so the roller doesn't hit the brush handle.  That means means roller needs to lead the tipper by about 12".  Tipping vertically the roller only needed to lead the tipper by about 4".

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So whatsit look like?

The domed ends of the foam rollers surely help. In addition, I first tip the roller and roll out the ends of the roller either on waste, or on the boat in the middle of where you are going to roll - then the ridges caused be excess paint get rolled out. 

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We were blotting the end of the rolling in the tray the second time we did it.  I'm not sure if it was the roller or thinning, but the red feather was a lot fewer bubbles than the foam.  I've been using the red feather to do some VC offshore.  Damn that stuff dries fast!  Wish I had more time to record thinning level and technique as I did it, as parts came out excellent, smoother than when I had it sprayed last time, but other parts are rougher.

Second try.  It's now a 6' finish instead of a 30' finish.  The streaks are vertical instead of horizontal, but much smaller.  We're going to try again and also put another coat on for better coverage of some repaired areas.  This time it's sanding much faster.  Two people for 1.25 hours this morning hand sanded all the runs and bugs out and did one side with an RO w/ 320 grit, probably 3 more man hours left, vs 15.5 hours for the whole boat last time.  I feel like the RO with soft foam interface pad is leaving less visible sanding marks than a foam long block with 320 sticky back was.

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Tape is my attempt to give the camera something to autofocus on.

 

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Shit's expensive.  Based on your first post, had no idea you were using Perfection + until you wrote 2333N.  Huffed plenty of that when we painted our decks and cabin top.

I painted in 90 degree plus, but relative humidity of only about 30%.  Rolled and tipped, and only thinned to 10% and it flowed very nicely (no brush strokes).

Pain in the ass, and I still know where all my f'ups are, but for the most part everyone who sees the boat says "Daaaaammmmmnnnnnn."

Don't sweat it.  From the last pics it looks pretty alright man.

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Foam rollers definitely make bubbles. A short nat roller will make stipples, but not many bubbles. 

Did you do the glass test? The little I have played with PU, it does seem similar to PU varnish: you could tell by the drag of the tipping brush, after a bit of experience, whether it was thinned sufficiently. Too much drag = add more thinner. I got pretty good at that after about 30 gallons of PU varnish. I had to adjust it for time (thinner evap'd out) and temperature. 

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Sand the boat the day before. Paint first thing in the morning. Get up early, bring a few old towels to wipe off the dew and any residual sanding dust.

Nothing makes 2 part harder to flow than high air temperatures.

Tipping vertically prevents sags and I've always done it. With high topsides roll out the top half - say 2' high, tip, and then roll out bottom 2' and tip, overlapping into top half a bit. If done quickly you won't see any seam effect.

Always use more thinner/reducer than the manufacturer says. They are trying to avoid solvent emission rules sometimes !

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

Always use more thinner/reducer than the manufacturer says. They are trying to avoid solvent emission rules sometimes !

Interesting, I had never considered that angle.

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Yes, if  you look at auto paints there are different VOC (volatile organic compounds = the smelly solvents) limits for different countries, states etc. So manufacturers make paint that complies but sometimes have to tell you "don't use more than XX thinner" to comply with limits.

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We started painting at 7 AM after the first attempt.  Sanding takes all day, no chance to sand and paint the same day unless we wanted to paint by headlamp.  Hasn't been dewy at night, so maybe that would have worked...

We plugged the toerail deck drain holes with rags so they wouldn't drip down the topsides.

We had someone who helped to add capfulls of thinner when the paint started to feel like it was dragging more.  Also to look at the work from oblique angles and point out bubbles and runs we couldn't see, which was very helpful.  They also dusted with a tack cloth just ahead of the painting but I'm not sure if the helped or not.  Fucking lint.  And wet paint is like crack to bugs.  A needle will you pick it out if you notice while tipping.

A Corona Urethaner does a better tipping job than a Corona Seagull.  The bushes do load up with paint and start to streak.  I'm not sure what to do about that that doesn't involve spending $60 on brushes per hour of painting.  Trying to rinse them in thinner was not very effective.

The work is definitely worse on the bow and stern where we couldn't reach without sanding on a ladder.  That slowed the process down.  Going quick is important.  It might have helped to have two rollers goings with a helper to load the next roller so the person rolling doesn't have to stop to reload.

I found 24 oz of paint just enough to paint about 145 ft², or about 775 ft²/gal, well over the specified coverage of 488.

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On July 27, 2018 at 11:37 PM, xyzzy said:

We started painting at 7 AM after the first attempt.  Sanding takes all day, no chance to sand and paint the same day unless we wanted to paint by headlamp.  Hasn't been dewy at night, so maybe that would have worked...

We plugged the toerail deck drain holes with rags so they wouldn't drip down the topsides.

We had someone who helped to add capfulls of thinner when the paint started to feel like it was dragging more.  Also to look at the work from oblique angles and point out bubbles and runs we couldn't see, which was very helpful.  They also dusted with a tack cloth just ahead of the painting but I'm not sure if the helped or not.  Fucking lint.  And wet paint is like crack to bugs.  A needle will you pick it out if you notice while tipping.

A Corona Urethaner does a better tipping job than a Corona Seagull.  The bushes do load up with paint and start to streak.  I'm not sure what to do about that that doesn't involve spending $60 on brushes per hour of painting.  Trying to rinse them in thinner was not very effective.

The work is definitely worse on the bow and stern where we couldn't reach without sanding on a ladder.  That slowed the process down.  Going quick is important.  It might have helped to have two rollers goings with a helper to load the next roller so the person rolling doesn't have to stop to reload.

I found 24 oz of paint just enough to paint about 145 ft², or about 775 ft²/gal, well over the specified coverage of 488.

I read most of this thread and maybe I missed it, but why did you need to tip the paint? I haven't used Perfection in every weather condition and I haven't used all colors, but the only time that it doesn't come out well (for me) is when I use a brush or if I try to apply the paint too thick or heavy. 

You said that you bought the e-book. Was it the second edition? The second edition was free to anyone who bought the first and it covers much more. Big areas like topsides are where this paint really shines (sorry for the pun), because it can be applied so fast with a  roller. One of your photos shows what looks like way too much paint applied, but in this post it sounds like you got pretty far with 24 ounces of paint. How big a boat is it? 

Sorry I didn't see the thread sooner. Maybe I could have helped. It does look good in the last photo.

 

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I believe it was the 2nd edition, just got it last week.

We tipped because the foam roller left bubbles that did not pop on their own.  In fact any spots we missed tipping are still there with bubbles.  This was with a foam roller.  The mohair rollers left fewer bubbles but it seemed like the paint wasn't as even and we got vertical runs from the roller edge.

The first two photos are from the 1st attempt which came out very poorly.  The later photos were after sanding that off and trying again and it worked better.

The boat is 26', with relatively high freeboard.

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The size of the boat and the amount of paint you were mixing per coat doesn't point to using too much paint, so I'm mystified.  The only times that I have ever had bubbles that didn't disappear were from applying too much paint in one coat. It takes some courage to wait for everything to flow out. Did you try not tipping on the subsequent coats? The times that I tried applying enough paint to cover in one coat were disasters, but the times where I have run short of paint and had to stretch to finish showed that the paint seems to cover as well with a very thin coat as it does with a thick coat and the finish was far better in the thin areas. My impression of this paint is very good, not just because it lasts forever, but more because it can be applied fast with a roller without tipping and can still look like a spray job, but without so much cost and waste. I know that things don't always work the same way for different people at different times (not to mention different cans of paint). It does seems like you had a tough time with your job.. I'm used to very light sanding between coats, just enough to remove the bits of dust and crud that make tiny bumps. I also haven't had to add thinner while painting, except for on very large jobs.

I hope this helps. If not now, maybe next time.

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Anyone know whether International makes different formulations (solvent levels) for different parts of the country?

(Also for different countries? I assume so, given the different regulatory regimes.)

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I agree, that looks amazing. How much better were you expecting this job to turn out, given that you can see yourself in the picture so clearly from so far away!!?!

I've fussed with Perfection in white a bit over the past few years and concur with Russell's sentiment: less really is more. When I look at the stuff I've done, the areas that look less great are running 10:1 in (too much paint) : (too little paint). And I've been reluctant to go to the full thinner quotient, but at no point have I seen evidence of having used paint that was too thin, only a bit too thick.

I use either West System foam rollers or Wooster 3/16" nap "all paint" R206-4 Super Doo-Z roller from Amazon, a suggestion from Gouvernail a few years ago.

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Xyzzy: The boat looked great last night.  It went from red to RED!

 

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I concur that looks pretty good. IMO, the only way to get better is to spray, and even that will likely need some buffing to really shine. I gave up on rolling/tipping long ago as all the 'pro tips' never matched what I can do with a $20 HVLP spray gun, and I'm no pro. Of course Isocynates will kill you so best to hire someone for a big job, and they are going to want to prep it themselves most likely, so you are talking real $$'s.

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The first coat, when I started the thread, was much worse than the finished result.  I'm pretty happen now, but from 5' away you can still see streaks.  The white rolled awlgrip on Whistling Swan, who was at the yard next to me, was nicer.  Though I hear red is a really hard color, so maybe comparing to white isn't fair.

We were 20%+ thinner so I'm not sure if more would have been helped or not.  I'm quite sure the bubbles wouldn't pop on their own, as any spot I missed still has bubbles in it.  Unless they take a week to pop, it's not happening.  Without the bubbles, I can certainly see how not tipping could leave a better finish.

I had some scratches that I repaired before starting.  For the deepest ones I used 3M platinum+ glaze.  I covered that with interlux epoxy primekote.  The smaller scratches I just used the primekote and it filled them just fine.  Sanded that smooth with the rest of the initial sanding job on the old paint.

After the first bad coat, we sanded for 16 man-hours with 240 on a RO with foam interface pad and 240 and then 320 on various foam sanding blocks.  I also used the 3M red and grey scotchbrite pads.  I got the boat back to a very uniform dull red with all the horizontal streaks gone, only the areas where the red hadn't covered the white primer from repair spots were visible.

After the 2nd better coat we sanded for maybe 10 man-hours with 320 on a RO and the scotchbrites.  A bit a small foam block work for areas with more runs.  The vertical streaks from the 2nd coat were not all out everywhere, you could still see some at the certain angles, but I didn't want to sand too much off.  The repaired areas still hadn't totally covered at this point.

After the 3rd coat of red we followed with perfection plus clear, so no sanding.  Interlux said not to.  Though one can wet sand with 2500 and the clear will blend the sanded area back in.  I didn't know if that would work or not and didn't touch up the bubbles, lint, and bugs as much as I would have if I had known it would be ok.  The 3rd coat was the one that covered.

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This is after sanding off the 1st bad coat and before the wash down.  Best way I found to remove the paint dust is spay with water while wiping with a rag in the running water.  Just a wet rag only moves the dust around and just running water doesn't lift it from the surface.  I used the red on the tack cloth to measure washdown effectiveness.  You can see the non-covered areas of primer.

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This is what 10 year old red perfection looks like:

-M4EEIL6tqkbAY0B7OsqQEYP5sWpMJwbyVcie00Q

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On 7/22/2018 at 12:34 PM, Alcatraz5768 said:

We went through this thing with my mates boat. Sanded it back down and called another mate to vinyl wrap it. Looked amazing. 

Has the vinyl wrap held up well?

 

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Looks good from a distance too.  One can make out the hills on the shore.i-BBwSn32-XL.jpg

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