DancesWithTiger

boat advice requested

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It's time for me to move on from my Corsair C24 trimaran. Either everything's getting heavier and more unwieldy, or I'm losing my touch. I love the performance and the (relatively) dry sailing, but I single-hand much of the time, and one of these days I'm going to find myself in conditions that are outside my ability to manage on my own.

I'm looking for something smaller and lighter in a trailerable package that will be relatively easy to set up from trailer to water. I'd love to have the speed potential, but know I'm probably going to end up compromising there to get comfort and less-wet sailing. 

I've started looking at smaller trimarans, and am open to dinghies. I have fond memories of my first boat, a Wayfarer, and it or something like it could be a possibility. 

Daysailing mostly, though camping from the boat is a possibility, single-handed mostly. and it'd be nice to be able to take a friend or three out without having to sit on top of each other. I'm near Lake Ontario and would like to continue being able to go out on the big lake as well as trailering to various of the Finger Lakes.

I'm thinking under 20 feet, under 1500 pounds, and gennaker/spinnaker capable.

 

I'll open the floor now for suggestions and discussion.

Thanks,
Dave

 

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The perfect boat for you may be the Weta trimaran ( Weta Marine.com ) There are 3 in Ithaca that race regularly. I'm in my 4th year of actively racing and sailing in the southeast , home port here in Atlanta on Lake Lanier. The boat may be just what you describe in that it is great for single-handed sailing and extremely stable. My hiking days are over! It is easy to transport and rig by yourself There are many You Tube videos that cover everything from assembly/launching to tacking techniques. Check it out. Happy Sailing. 

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41 minutes ago, xonk1 said:

The perfect boat for you may be the Weta trimaran ( Weta Marine.com ) There are 3 in Ithaca that race regularly. I'm in my 4th year of actively racing and sailing in the southeast , home port here in Atlanta on Lake Lanier. The boat may be just what you describe in that it is great for single-handed sailing and extremely stable. My hiking days are over! It is easy to transport and rig by yourself There are many You Tube videos that cover everything from assembly/launching to tacking techniques. Check it out. Happy Sailing. 

Thanks, xonk.

Weta is on my short list for sure. The sailing videos have me a little concerned about performance/comfort (dryness) without being on the tramps. I'm hoping to see/sail one later this summer. How reasonable is it to sail from the edge of (or in) the main hull?

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Under some conditions, the Weta is wet ( part of the name ). You will become VERY comfortable sitting on the outboard edge of the tramp with your feet either braced against the outboard edge of the main hull or under the tramp hiking straps. In most conditions you will be just aft of the shroud ( upwind ) or next to the aft beam with your feet in the cockpit ( off the wind ).These are fairly dry spots. If you have a crew, who will usually sit more forward and inboard, they will get plenty of spray. Sitting on the windward deck of the main hull or on the inboard edge to the windward tramp with your feet in the cockpit is good up to about 10 knots of breeze depending on your weight. The operative word here is " sitting ". Most of the body positions for sailing the Weta are similar to sitting in a chair. Note how little body movement you see in the videos - almost no hiking. Some racers will sit all the way out with their butts on the ama and feet in the straps. For me, too much physical effort and not much performance gain. The boat is comfortable, stable and low effort. Note that the individual sails are not especially large - all the sheet loads are low. Sail all day without being exhausted. One sail and you'll be hooked.

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I share a Weta with friends. You can sail it dry-ish, comfy in most conditions. You can depower easily.  I'd always be prepared for it getting a bit wet, that's true for any small sailboat :-)

The videos on youtube tend to be of people doing crazy things, so they make the boat look super wet. It's optional. Going fast can be wet.

Overall, the boat is a delight to sail.

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I agree 100% with comments about how the Weta sails having owned / sailed one.

If you can leave the boat rigged on its dolly, you can be sailing faster than it takes to rig a Laser.

 

If you’re always trailering from home setup does take some time. Also pay attention to the design of the trailer / dolly with regards to getting the dolly off the trailer and speeding up the time to sailing.

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Good to know, Alan.

My Corsair usually sits on the trailer at a marina, with 35-45 minutes of prep needed to get onto the water. I could continue that with the next boat, or may become a complete trailer-sailor, depending on the complexity/timeliness of the setup process.

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A question for those of you with Weta experience: How weatherly are they?

Here's the situation: my current marina lies ~3/4 miles upriver from the lake. It's not unusual to have wind on the nose either leaving the ramp to get to the lake or returning after a sail on the lake. I've gotten used to using the outboard to get back and forth. I need it anyhow to maneuver into the ramp, which is 12-13' wide.

How hard is it likely to be to short-tack my way either direction? At its narrowest, I'd guess the river to be 60-70' wide.

Screen Shot 2018-07-25 at 7.55.29 PM.png

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The Weta will tack in its own length. Even though it is a trimaran, with a large rudder and big vertical centerboard, I could maneuver the Weta in my living room. It tacks and handles like a 14' dinghy. Again, try it. You will not be disappointed. On second thought, why not launch off the beach at Ontario Beach Park?

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1 hour ago, xonk1 said:

The Weta will tack in its own length. Even though it is a trimaran, with a large rudder and big vertical centerboard, I could maneuver the Weta in my living room. It tacks and handles like a 14' dinghy. Again, try it. You will not be disappointed. On second thought, why not launch off the beach at Ontario Beach Park?

Would not have thought of that as an option, but it might be worth a try. I think there may be a group of beach cat folks who launch from the beach on the east side of the river.

This opens up a world of possibilities.

 

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There was something called a K1 which was like a large single handed dinghy with a bulb keel which  is supposedly easy to ramp launch.  I don't know much about it but I remember reading that there was a fleet on a lake somewhere in upstate New York.  It was designed for single handing with a self tacking jib with an objective of  single handing without capsizing. 

Edit.....found a website: http://k1association.org/boat/

Weta  is cool as multihull option.

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9 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

There was something called a K1 which was like a large single handed dinghy with a bulb keel which  is supposedly easy to ramp launch.  I don't know much about it but I remember reading that there was a fleet on a lake somewhere in upstate New York.  It was designed for single handing with a self tacking jib with an objective of  single handing without capsizing. 

Edit.....found a website: http://k1association.org/boat/

Weta  is cool as multihull option.

Looks like an interesting option, but I'm not finding them in the US at all: all British references. They're keeping a low profile.

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 Someone from AYC told me about the K1. They thought I would be interested. Im not...I'm a social animal and like to sail with people.  There was a demo boat in Marblehead and apparently a fleet up on a lake in upstate NY. Now I think about it, there was something hush hush about the K1 fleet....maybe a very exclusive private club on private lake???. Anyway I saw some pics and it lodged in the recesses of my mind along with all the rest of useless sailing trivia that is there.

Maybe try Rondar's US  salesperson in Marblehead. He goes by Rockhead on these forums.  I think its a bit risky to buy a boat from an orphan class but if they still have the demo and its cheap enough???

If I was getting a single hander ....and I am not a young person .......I confess I like the look of your C24 but it would have to be sitting on a mooring ready to go.  If I have to launch a boat, it has to be easy. 

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46 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

...snip... I think its a bit risky to buy a boat from an orphan class but if they still have the demo and its cheap enough???

 

Yeah. Given the number of other options, this one would fall pretty far down the list.

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Hey!  I’m expecting my K1 in early September!

 

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Flying Fifteens are also cool,  and the original post - the Wayfarer - a VERY NEAT boat.

20 feet, under 1500#, nimble, easy to singlehand (self-tacking jib) - sounds not unlike an Impulse 21.

I love mine.  I can rig it, with kite in 7 minutes. Takes 2-3 easily and also GREAT solo - 1300 lbs, with a fixed 600# keel and you can find them pretty reasonably priced.

best wishes.

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On 7/26/2018 at 9:22 AM, EYESAILOR said:

 Someone from AYC told me about the K1. They thought I would be interested. Im not...I'm a social animal and like to sail with people.  There was a demo boat in Marblehead and apparently a fleet up on a lake in upstate NY. Now I think about it, there was something hush hush about the K1 fleet....maybe a very exclusive private club on private lake???. Anyway I saw some pics and it lodged in the recesses of my mind along with all the rest of useless sailing trivia that is there.

Maybe try Rondar's US  salesperson in Marblehead. He goes by Rockhead on these forums.  I think its a bit risky to buy a boat from an orphan class but if they still have the demo and its cheap enough???

If I was getting a single hander ....and I am not a young person .......I confess I like the look of your C24 but it would have to be sitting on a mooring ready to go.  If I have to launch a boat, it has to be easy. 

The fleet in upstate NY (St. Regis Yacht Club) is the K6, not the K1. Hush hush? Not really.

http://stregisyc.org/

 

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On 7/29/2018 at 9:48 AM, superg said:

The fleet in upstate NY (St. Regis Yacht Club) is the K6, not the K1. Hush hush? Not really.

http://stregisyc.org/

 

Duh.  My bad. Either I wasn't paying attention or one too many Vodka/Cranberry. 

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reading everything on your "wish list" The Highlander best fits the bill. The only concession would be to have a reef (not a big deal) put in the main for single & short handing. Great light /medium air performance, lots of room for camping stuff and easily holds 3 crew and dry boat in all but the windiest conditions. A jib furler would be a nice addition too.

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19 hours ago, Pewit said:

There a number of larger trimaran owners in Australia who have "downsized" to a Weta in the last few months (or are trying to do so once they find a buyer). Including Peter Hacket, the Corsair dealer in Brisbane - here's his review of the new lighter foam core Weta.

https://www.wetamarine.com/news-and-events/new-foam-weta-peter-hackett/

Interesting...I lean toward the Weta and away again.

 

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8 hours ago, ARNOLD said:

reading everything on your "wish list" The Highlander best fits the bill. The only concession would be to have a reef (not a big deal) put in the main for single & short handing. Great light /medium air performance, lots of room for camping stuff and easily holds 3 crew and dry boat in all but the windiest conditions. A jib furler would be a nice addition too.

That looks like a great alternative for me. I'll look further into these. What I don't see in a quick-ish search is what it takes to take one from trailer to water. Any ideas what it takes to step the mast and get it sailing?

Thanks,

Dave

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Check out http://www.sailhighlander.org

 buddy of mine (mid 50's 5'10"165 lbs.)   used to rig and sail his solo or with his not very aquatic wife very frequently. It was a  rocket in light / medium air but too much for him or them on windy days. I offered to put a reef in the main for him. his reply was "it isn't class legal" My response "so what,, you only race in  portsmouth regattas anyway".

Contact some of the active fleet members from the site, you'll get lots of feedback.

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On 7/26/2018 at 12:22 PM, EYESAILOR said:

 Maybe try Rondar's US  salesperson in Marblehead. He goes by Rockhead on these forums.  I think its a bit risky to buy a boat from an orphan class but if they still have the demo and its cheap enough???

 

I haven't been keeping up with SA so much lately, but here I am!

Dances, If you want info on either the K1 or K6, let me know (dan@rondarboats.com). Briefly:

K1 is a true singlehander. Bulb keel, self-tacking jib with a dangly pole for offwind. It's quite a nice sailing boat. Ridiculously easy to rig and launch from mast down to sailing. Sitting on its dolly/trailer with the rig up, it's nothing to launch and go sailing. We just shipped one to the PNW, that must be Amati. He's the sole owner in the US, there are a couple of hundred in the UK. Not a boat you could take a couple of friends sailing on. We have a demo boat, but I've sort of lost track of where it is, I probably ought to track it down. LOL

K6 is the big brother, similar hull form, and design philosophy. 19 feet, tube-launched asym kite with shingle-line hoist/retrieve. Designed as a 2-person boat, simple to sail. Paul Young, owner of Rondar, 5o5 lover at heart, wanted a simpler boat to club race with his wife or one of his sons, with 5-oh-ish performance, but wouldn't get he and his wife dumped for a mistake. Lovely sailing boat with powerful controls, self-tacking jib. I've singlehanded it in up to 12-15 knots with the kite up. It's quite manageable and a lot of fun. Also easy to rig, even by one person. Carbon mast is 25 pounds with wires, easy to step alone. Many people race them with 3. There's a fleet at American YC in Rye, NY and the "secret" fleet at St. Regis YC in upstate NY. Couple of hundred in the UK also.

Both are responsive and rewarding to sail.

PM or email if you want to learn more about either.

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On 8/5/2018 at 10:07 AM, ARNOLD said:

reading everything on your "wish list" The Highlander best fits the bill. The only concession would be to have a reef (not a big deal) put in the main for single & short handing. Great light /medium air performance, lots of room for camping stuff and easily holds 3 crew and dry boat in all but the windiest conditions. A jib furler would be a nice addition too.

Oh God, another 65+ year old design. :(   Sandy Douglass was brilliant but building materials and components have moved on. 

If Classic Design and needlessly heavy are on his check list, then it checks all the boxes.

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Ran across the Raider and Vanguard V15 in the course of my searching, each interesting in its own way. The looks of the Raider are some kind of acquired taste, but its performance (as far as I can gauge it) sounds promising.

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13 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Oh God, another 65+ year old design. :(   Sandy Douglass was brilliant but building materials and components have moved on. 

If Classic Design and needlessly heavy are on his check list, then it checks all the boxes.

What "Modern" design does check the boxes? A boom tent on the long boom of the Highlander makes it a cavern for camping. Plenty of room for 4 with a beer cooler,  weight= 850 lbs.(650 less than max requirement) Light air performance close to his Corsair and has a spinny. My reading comprehension tells me its a fit with requirements as stated..Classic design is not a detriment if it goes fast. Check the portsmouth numbers.

BTW.Tiger Dancer. I have a Raider and love it. But it will not carry 4 peeps unless all kids. Its probably the most underrated boat being (or not being) promoted. Very comfortable, easy to sail very fast, furling headsail and spinny etc .Great for single or double handing. Won overall in this years Mug Race ahead of a Farrier F-22 boat for boat. PM me if you want more info.

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37 minutes ago, DancesWithTiger said:

Any thoughts/experience on Buccaneer 18's?

I like the Bucc 18 and solo'd it the majority of the time. That said I'm 6'5" and 250#s and it took all of my size to keep her under control at times. If you're looking at that size of boat the Highlander is another fun one.

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2 hours ago, DancesWithTiger said:

Any thoughts/experience on Buccaneer 18's?

I single hand mine a lot at 230#. I can't keep it flat but it doesn't really misbehave when heeled too much. Old boats need some work to make them not fill up too quickly after capsize. Water in Ontario probably stays too cold for a boat that you should expect to capsize some.

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Going to look at a couple of used Raiders (from about 2008) this weekend. Any specific pointers or advice regarding these? Any parts or places I should pay particular attention to?

 

Thanks,
Dave

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I have had no structural problems with the Raider, and I have owned four of them. The first was the original hull shape used as a test bed to help develop the souped up Turbo with jib. It was older and used really hard. The lower gudgeon finally broke. Simple to replace with the nearby access port.

The boats made from the new mold are better in chop/waves due to a little more rocker and Fuller bow area. 

Dave Ellis

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3 minutes ago, sailwriter said:

I have had no structural problems with the Raider, and I have owned four of them. The first was the original hull shape used as a test bed to help develop the souped up Turbo with jib. It was older and used really hard. The lower gudgeon finally broke. Simple to replace with the nearby access port.

The boats made from the new mold are better in chop/waves due to a little more rocker and Fuller bow area. 

Dave Ellis

Thanks, Dave. That's reassuring. To clarify, when you talk about the "new mold," you're referring to the boats with stayed masts? 

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Yes. To keep at the price point, the carbon spars had to go. Economics.

The new mold, as stated, is much more sea-kindly, although in smooth water the original hull shape would be potentially faster. Not in the real world. 

As you may know, the Raider with jib but without screecher or spinnaker won Dinghy class and won on handicap over the whole 88-boat fleet in the May 35-mile Mug Race this year.  And it was sailed single handed by a 73 year old curmudgeon.  It is really a comfortable boat for one or two, and able to be anchored out overnight and still be upright in the morning.

Oh, and I have no vested interest in the company. Just like the boat. 

Dave Ellis

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1 hour ago, sailwriter said:

Yes. To keep at the price point, the carbon spars had to go. Economics.

The new mold, as stated, is much more sea-kindly, although in smooth water the original hull shape would be potentially faster. Not in the real world. 

As you may know, the Raider with jib but without screecher or spinnaker won Dinghy class and won on handicap over the whole 88-boat fleet in the May 35-mile Mug Race this year.  And it was sailed single handed by a 73 year old curmudgeon.  It is really a comfortable boat for one or two, and able to be anchored out overnight and still be upright in the morning.

Oh, and I have no vested interest in the company. Just like the boat. 

Dave Ellis

It looks like I'll have a chance to test sail one of the boats this weekend. I'm really curious to see how its performance strikes me on first impression. 

So, newer hulls/rigs are generally faster? Is there much of a difference in them overall? Tradeoffs?

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2 hours ago, sailwriter said:

Yes. To keep at the price point, the carbon spars had to go. Economics.

The new mold, as stated, is much more sea-kindly, although in smooth water the original hull shape would be potentially faster. Not in the real world. 

As you may know, the Raider with jib but without screecher or spinnaker won Dinghy class and won on handicap over the whole 88-boat fleet in the May 35-mile Mug Race this year.  And it was sailed single handed by a 73 year old curmudgeon.  It is really a comfortable boat for one or two, and able to be anchored out overnight and still be upright in the morning.

Oh, and I have no vested interest in the company. Just like the boat. 

Dave Ellis

Dave, Have you written up anything about the experience of the race?

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8 hours ago, DancesWithTiger said:

It looks like I'll have a chance to test sail one of the boats this weekend. I'm really curious to see how its performance strikes me on first impression. 

So, newer hulls/rigs are generally faster? Is there much of a difference in them overall? Tradeoffs?

By newer hulls I mean any from the new mold. Since Johannsen Boat Works started building the Raider, any boat would be equal in excellent quality. Big difference in skipper ability among boats in the fleet though.

I used to write up the Mug Race each year in Southwinds magazine. Pretty much retired now. But results are on the Rudder Club website.

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#97 Raider Sport (unstayed mast, main & spinnaker only) will be coming home with me on Monday! 

Looking for rigging advice, tips, setup tricks, and sailing pointers. Spinnaker not currently rigged, though the “sock” and sail are aboard, and I’ve seen that there is a set of spinnaker instructions online.

All greatly appreciated, 

dave

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Congrats! 

Did you know that your Raider 16 with the original carbon rig will right itself? No need to even stand on the dagger board. The configuration of the hull and the long light mast make it self-righting, like a keel boat. So, keep near the boat if you flip, or it will stand up and sail off!

As for tuning and rigging information, online at raidersailboats.com under technical. If you found the spinnaker rigging guide just scroll down, and down, and down and you will find the rest.

In any kind of breeze your original Raider design keeps right up with the updated Raider design, starting with boat #100.
I had the last boat from the original mold, #99. It was left over when the new mold came along. Mark at the factory gave me the hull and I cobbled together the rig, used sails, etc. The only real difference in handling from the new mold boats is the newer ones have a fuller bow area and a little more rocker, besides the dagger board well forward a bit to make the boat balance with the jib. So, in waves, sit well back!

Enjoy!

Dave Ellis

Raider #133

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On 9/13/2018 at 3:30 PM, sailwriter said:

Congrats! 

Did you know that your Raider 16 with the original carbon rig will right itself? No need to even stand on the dagger board. The configuration of the hull and the long light mast make it self-righting, like a keel boat. So, keep near the boat if you flip, or it will stand up and sail off!

As for tuning and rigging information, online at raidersailboats.com under technical. If you found the spinnaker rigging guide just scroll down, and down, and down and you will find the rest.

In any kind of breeze your original Raider design keeps right up with the updated Raider design, starting with boat #100.
I had the last boat from the original mold, #99. It was left over when the new mold came along. Mark at the factory gave me the hull and I cobbled together the rig, used sails, etc. The only real difference in handling from the new mold boats is the newer ones have a fuller bow area and a little more rocker, besides the dagger board well forward a bit to make the boat balance with the jib. So, in waves, sit well back!

Enjoy!

Dave Ellis

Raider #133

Dave, I had seen that guide, but without a boat to look at, it didn’t make a lot of sense to me, and I hadn’t read it to the end. Can’t wait to get home and sort it all out. (I think it’s all pretty much in place, except the spinnaker lines.)

First sail will be Tuesday or Wednesday, depending on conditions. 

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On 9/13/2018 at 3:30 PM, sailwriter said:

Congrats! 

Did you know that your Raider 16 with the original carbon rig will right itself? No need to even stand on the dagger board. The configuration of the hull and the long light mast make it self-righting, like a keel boat. So, keep near the boat if you flip, or it will stand up and sail off!

As for tuning and rigging information, online at raidersailboats.com under technical. If you found the spinnaker rigging guide just scroll down, and down, and down and you will find the rest.

In any kind of breeze your original Raider design keeps right up with the updated Raider design, starting with boat #100.
I had the last boat from the original mold, #99. It was left over when the new mold came along. Mark at the factory gave me the hull and I cobbled together the rig, used sails, etc. The only real difference in handling from the new mold boats is the newer ones have a fuller bow area and a little more rocker, besides the dagger board well forward a bit to make the boat balance with the jib. So, in waves, sit well back!

Enjoy!

Dave Ellis

Raider #133

Dave, I can now verify that the boat will self-right from a capsize, at least once the top of the mast is freed from the bottom mud. Caught an unexpected jibe, and the mainsheet caught the traveler blocks so the main wasn't free to dump the gust. Happened in waist-deep water, so I just walked it around until the wind on the bottom of the hull wasn't driving the mast into the bottom of the bay, and up she came. Walked around back and climbed aboard.

Won't try that particular maneuver again.

Dave

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Cool. Mine with aluminum mast does not self-right. I have flipped twice in the Raider. Once waiting for the start and got complacent. Embarrassing. The other was in a Mug Race with a gnarly downdraft over the windward shore. Never saw it coming. Boat flipped and the gust turtled the boat. Took very little time to right the boat and take off. Happily was in a deep spot. First thing you do is look around and see if anyone was watching. Nope, nobody near.

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congrats on scoring the boat. My experience on capsize is when you know its happning make sure you don't bail out onto the mainsail or hang onto the boom and it wont turtle. The boat will self right if the mainsheet is free to run and there isn't a 15 kt breeze blowing on the hull to keep the boat down.

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