4glennb

Fareast 23R phrf rating

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We have a new boat on our lake in the Northeast a Fareast 23r. Looked up the phrf rating on phrf-NE and the boat is rated at 51 race and 63 cruise, the owner is not happy with that rating of course.

Anyone out there have any experience with the phrf rating for this boat in your area?

Thanks

Glenn

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That looks like the rating for the 28 not the 23. I would expect it to fall between the Melges 24 and a J70.

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Hi wicked thanks for the comment. I Agree with you, but the only reference that I can find for a rating for this boat is on the PHRF-NE website. Hoping someone has more info on this boat. Compared to a J/70 it has 47% more upwind sail area and 77% more downwind sail with equal weight and LWL.

Thanks

Glenn

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afaik, spotsboats and phrf do not mix well, but ymmv.

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7 hours ago, Irish River said:

PHRF nw

FE23 117

Melges 24 99

Thanks for that

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28r rates between 58 and 61.

the 23r is probably more like 115.

Wateline length makes the difference 

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43 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

28r rates between 58 and 61.

the 23r is probably more like 115.

Wateline length makes the difference 

Yeah I also agree Sail4beer. Just seams strange that PHRF-NE has it 51-63, but the sail area compared to a J/70 is 47% more with the same waterline.

Glenn

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5 hours ago, PaulinVictoria said:

The one out of RVYC rates at 117, not sure if it's the "R".

Thanks for the info Paulin, I'll probably use a PHRF closer to the 117.

Glenn

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No worries, I think "overdraft" on here is the owner, IIRC he started out at 111 or something and it got adjusted, seems a fast boat in the right conditions but otherwise would appear to be pretty tricky to sail to the rating. Looks good though, and fun!

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20 minutes ago, JimBowie said:

PHRF Northeast:

FAR EAST 28R  

\U51/U63

 

MELGES 24 ODR   102/108

My FE28R is definitely faster that a Melges 24 but not 50 seconds per mile. There are two other FE 28R's in the US with PHRF's of 72 and 75. I'm getting ready to petition my club to be raised to 73 from my present 54.  I think 73 is a more realistic number. In a big wind long distance race with a long downwind leg maybe 54 can be reached but in the typical short W/L courses 73 is more like it.

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Good luck, some of these committees are pretty entrenched once they set a rating for a boat.

thanks

 

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On 8/20/2018 at 9:48 PM, gjbike said:

My FE28R is definitely faster that a Melges 24 but not 50 seconds per mile. There are two other FE 28R's in the US with PHRF's of 72 and 75. I'm getting ready to petition my club to be raised to 73 from my present 54.  I think 73 is a more realistic number. In a big wind long distance race with a long downwind leg maybe 54 can be reached but in the typical short W/L courses 73 is more like it.

Typically adjustments never exceed 6-12 seconds per mile per year.  19 is a big jump and calls into question the Data.  The committee needs to make their decision based upon Data.

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2 hours ago, JimBowie said:

Typically adjustments never exceed 6-12 seconds per mile per year.  19 is a big jump and calls into question the Data.  The committee needs to make their decision based upon Data.

Depends how much hookers/blow are/is in the equation

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On 8/22/2018 at 9:35 AM, JimBowie said:

Typically adjustments never exceed 6-12 seconds per mile per year.  19 is a big jump and calls into question the Data.  The committee needs to make their decision based upon Data.

I agree. Mine was a provisional rating being  the first one imported to the US. There was no historical data to rely on. Now 2 years later there are  several other FE28R's that have gone through the PHRF process and experience with my racing results relative to the other boats. I have prepared a 28 page appeal that is nothing but data to support my request . We'll see but I think I have a reasonable request supported by contemporaneous data.  

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23 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

1st in the US? What’s your hull #? 

Hull 85

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Yours was the first one sold to a customer in the US. I have #33. Got it in September, 2015 before it was the boat of the year. It had been damaged at the dock after the Figawi race. A storm came in and the starboard cleats pulled out of a floating dock and the boat was laying up on the pilings on the Port side.  

There were a lot of hulls built in a short period of time if yours is 52 after mine. Very successful design. I hope your appeal goes through and the boat gets a fair rating.

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On 8/27/2018 at 7:26 AM, Sail4beer said:

Yours was the first one sold to a customer in the US. I have #33. Got it in September, 2015 before it was the boat of the year. It had been damaged at the dock after the Figawi race. A storm came in and the starboard cleats pulled out of a floating dock and the boat was laying up on the pilings on the Port side.  

There were a lot of hulls built in a short period of time if yours is 52 after mine. Very successful design. I hope your appeal goes through and the boat gets a fair rating.

Glad to report the PHRF committee was  receptive to my appeal and my PHRF handicap is now 68. 

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On 8/23/2018 at 10:34 AM, gjbike said:

I agree. Mine was a provisional rating being  the first one imported to the US. There was no historical data to rely on. Now 2 years later there are  several other FE28R's that have gone through the PHRF process and experience with my racing results relative to the other boats. I have prepared a 28 page appeal that is nothing but data to support my request . We'll see but I think I have a reasonable request supported by contemporaneous data.  

Please by all means share it all.  Would make an interesting technical read.  You can never know too much about the machinations of local PHRF boards.  

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Nothing more than what other FE28R’s and other physically similar boats have been rated in other regions. PHRF and ORC/IRC certificates, and readily available online ratings. 

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That’s great news. The boat deserves the rating to compete fairly in PHRF.

That takes into account for light conditions where the boat suffers the most and for Beercan Racing in the evening where those conditions prevail (except for full moons). 

 

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19 hours ago, gjbike said:

Glad to report the PHRF committee was  receptive to my appeal and my PHRF handicap is now 68. 

So based on that rating the boat is the same speed as a V830. Do you think that is correct?

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1 hour ago, Mike in CT said:

So based on that rating the boat is the same speed as a V830. Do you think that is correct?

Guess we'll find out Wurstfest when Rented Mule comes down from Dallas.

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As we would say down here:

” thems are fighting words!” :)

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7 hours ago, Mike in CT said:

So based on that rating the boat is the same speed as a V830. Do you think that is correct?

I don’t recall if we’ve sailed against one. Under ideal conditions we do about 6.2 kts upwind at 37 deg TWA for a VMG of 5.1. When you get it dialed in the boat definitely moves well. 

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7 hours ago, JimBowie said:

Guess we'll find out Wurstfest when Rented Mule comes down from Dallas.

I look forward to hearing about that. When I had an 830 I wondered about it. I would think the 830 would plane a bit sooner. 

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59 minutes ago, gjbike said:

I don’t recall if we’ve sailed against one. Under ideal conditions we do about 6.2 kts upwind at 37 deg TWA for a VMG of 5.1. When you get it dialed in the boat definitely moves well. 

Well last year Rented Mule was #1 and Wind was last place.  You will owe them precisely 1 second per mile according to their entry handicap of 69.

https://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/applet_regatta_results.php?regatta_id=15455

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1 hour ago, Mike in CT said:

I look forward to hearing about that. When I had an 830 I wondered about it. I would think the 830 would plane a bit sooner. 

Maybe the FE28 might have a chance on a windy reach - all other configurations - probably not

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Yes, that was terrible. Well-since then we have new crew and happy to say we have bested pretty much all of those boats sometime during the year. But I see we may be starting to form a new rivalry  with those yankee carpetbaggers from up north. How about skipper of losing boat buys bottle of 18 yo single malt scotch for winner? So, do you feel lucky punk-  we’ll do you?? ( in my best Clint Eastwood impersonation) ;)

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3 minutes ago, gjbike said:

Yes, that was terrible. Well-since then we have new crew and happy to say we have bested pretty much all of those boats sometime during the year. But I see we may be starting to form a new rivalry  with those yankee carpetbaggers from up north. How about skipper of losing boat buys bottle of 18 yo single malt scotch for winner? So, do you feel lucky punk-  we’ll do you?? ( in my best Clint Eastwood impersonation) ;)

OK.  I like that challenge.  You should make the Mule this offer: come down and kick our asses and you win the scotch.  Come down and you kick THEIR asses and they will buy you a bottle of scotch, with one caveat--you will be required to drive I35 north and challenge them next March 1 at the RCYC Texas Independence Cup regatta in their home waters to serve them a large can of whoop-ass to prove it wasn't a home lake fluke!  :)

 

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Ok. You’re on  (actually I remember now how fast that boat was- but it will still come down to crew skills)

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On 8/1/2018 at 11:07 AM, wicked said:

That looks like the rating for the 28 not the 23. I would expect it to fall between the Melges 24 and a J70.

Good christ did PHRF-NE fubar the 23r. 

They have a base rating for the 28r of u57/u69. Ok whatever. They don't have a base rating for the 23r listed on the site, but they DID handicap one in Marion at U51/U63!

So apparently y'all bought the wrong boats - you could have gone cheaper and shorter and been 6spm faster! 

*cough,cough*Orr_ez*cough,cough*

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Well now that Wurstfest 2019 is in the bag I am happy to report that Canyon Wind (Fareast 28R) was able to take first place having bested  the very fast and well sailed Rented Mule (Viper 830) in 4 of 4 races. The very close finishes I think confirm my 68 rating is reasonable. 

Make mine 18 yo Balvenie please

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27 minutes ago, gjbike said:

Well now that Wurstfest 2019 is in the bag I am happy to report that Canyon Wind (Fareast 28R) was able to take first place having bested  the very fast and well sailed Rented Mule (Viper 830) in 4 of 4 races. The very close finishes I think confirm my 68 rating is reasonable. 

Make mine 18 yo Balvenie please


that was a pretty comprehensive ass kicking. Boat-speed wise the FarEast was slightly better up wind (but we also hiked harder and sailed flatter), the Viper slightly better VMG downwind.  But we totally owned them on Tactics. 
 

 

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that was a pretty comprehensive ass kicking. Boat-speed wise the FarEast was slightly better up wind (but we also hiked harder and sailed flatter), the Viper slightly better VMG downwind.  But we totally on them on Tactics. 
 

 

Now , now Jackdaw- he is a fellow Texan afterall :)

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17 minutes ago, gjbike said:

that was a pretty comprehensive ass kicking. Boat-speed wise the FarEast was slightly better up wind (but we also hiked harder and sailed flatter), the Viper slightly better VMG downwind.  But we totally on them on Tactics. 
 

 

Now , now Jackdaw- he is a fellow Texan afterall :)

Ha! Made that pretty fact-based. If you null out the tactics, the 3 second delta seems solid. Several times they did interesting things on the downwinds, but in every case we were in front on them and I think they were trying to gain leverage. 

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11 hours ago, gjbike said:

that was a pretty comprehensive ass kicking. Boat-speed wise the FarEast was slightly better up wind (but we also hiked harder and sailed flatter), the Viper slightly better VMG downwind.  But we totally on them on Tactics. 
 

 

Now , now Jackdaw- he is a fellow Texan afterall :)

The best tactic is "go faster"

Looks like the FarEast is a bit more boat than the Viper, interesting if the Viper really has better all around VMG downhill.

FB- Doug

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On 11/20/2019 at 9:17 AM, Steam Flyer said:

The best tactic is "go faster"

Looks like the FarEast is a bit more boat than the Viper, interesting if the Viper really has better all around VMG downhill.

FB- Doug

Well they owe the 28r time.  Must be faster somewhere.

 

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1 hour ago, Jackdaw said:
On 11/20/2019 at 10:17 AM, Steam Flyer said:

The best tactic is "go faster"

Looks like the FarEast is a bit more boat than the Viper, interesting if the Viper really has better all around VMG downhill.

FB- Doug

Well they owe the 28r time.  Must be faster somewhere.

Sure, but where and how many, by how much? I can't imagine there's a big enough base of measurement to have solid ratings for the FarEast boats yet. And the Viper has a pretty high "dash" speed but is not really fast as sportboats go, there are conditions where it could sail to a rating perhaps 10 or 15 points lower but the rest of the time...........

I've had the experience of racing a Rocket 22 against a Viper, and under most conditions we could beat them upwind but not by enough, and downwind it was difficult. We were rookies on the boat though, I'm sure we were not getting the best out of it.

FB- Doug

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Sure, but where and how many, by how much? I can't imagine there's a big enough base of measurement to have solid ratings for the FarEast boats yet. And the Viper has a pretty high "dash" speed but is not really fast as sportboats go, there are conditions where it could sail to a rating perhaps 10 or 15 points lower but the rest of the time...........

I've had the experience of racing a Rocket 22 against a Viper, and under most conditions we could beat them upwind but not by enough, and downwind it was difficult. We were rookies on the boat though, I'm sure we were not getting the best out of it.

FB- Doug

Yea, with a sample size of 4 races, I wasn't trying to do anything more then say our data correlated with the ratings we sailed with.

 

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On 11/21/2019 at 4:50 PM, Steam Flyer said:

I've had the experience of racing a Rocket 22 against a Viper,

A Viper 830?

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1 minute ago, ryley said:
On 11/21/2019 at 4:50 PM, Steam Flyer said:

I've had the experience of racing a Rocket 22 against a Viper,

A Viper 830?

No, the "little" one. Never seen the 830, although it seems like a very interesting boat.

The Rocket really interested me for a while... even went shopping for one but didn't get a chance to sail it. When one turned up in our neighborhood, I jumped at the chance. It was a lot of fun but ultimately it was kind of a disappointment. It seemed to me like we should have been able to beat up a Viper pretty handily. But like I also said, I'm sure we were not getting the best out of the boat.

FB- Doug

 

 

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Steam, that's what I thought. the 830 is full on sportboat and that's what the original viper comments were about. the 830 is basically a surfboard with an asym, wet and deserving of its rating around 66, a rating it regularly sails to. I raced my columbia against one a couple times at off soundings and they were good and fast. deadly combination. There's a reason why every thread about a new 30ish sportboat ends up with at least one "it rates slower than a viper 830 so it can't be that great" comment ;)

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According to my research, the Viper 640 rates faster in PHRF than the Rocket 22. 749 lbs vs 1600 lbs may be the reason. I tried to get the Rocket 22 on Lake Memphremagog to come do some racing with us. There is also a Canadian Seascape 27, and is or was a Fareast 23R on the northern end of Lake Champlain, but I still haven't seen them in person.

https://lcyc.info/files/PHRF Sportboat Matrix.pdf

If anyone wants to add more sportboats to this comparison, let me know and I will send you the file. I wish I had have done a separate column each for Melges 24 ODR and Melges 24 PHRF, because they have two different national reference ratings, but NRRs didn't exist when I started compiling data.

Cheers

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On 12/3/2019 at 2:00 PM, Streetwise said:

According to my research, the Viper 640 rates faster in PHRF than the Rocket 22. 749 lbs vs 1600 lbs may be the reason. I tried to get the Rocket 22 on Lake Memphremagog to come do some racing with us. There is also a Canadian Seascape 27, and is or was a Fareast 23R on the northern end of Lake Champlain, but I still haven't seen them in person.

https://lcyc.info/files/PHRF Sportboat Matrix.pdf

If anyone wants to add more sportboats to this comparison, let me know and I will send you the file. I wish I had have done a separate column each for Melges 24 ODR and Melges 24 PHRF, because they have two different national reference ratings, but NRRs didn't exist when I started compiling data.

Cheers

I know of the 2 Rocket 22 on Memphremagog, one is well sailed and the other we  never see. We sail an Antrim 27 on Memphremagog and we often race the Rocket which is well crewed. The Rocket is a good boat especially in very light winds. It has the benefit of both types of spinnaker. The Fareast 23R has been on Memphremagog for the past 2 summers and is now for sale, nice looking boat.

Can you add an Antrim 27 to your comparison matrix.

Thanks

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On 12/3/2019 at 11:00 AM, Streetwise said:

According to my research, the Viper 640 rates faster in PHRF than the Rocket 22. 749 lbs vs 1600 lbs may be the reason. I tried to get the Rocket 22 on Lake Memphremagog to come do some racing with us. There is also a Canadian Seascape 27, and is or was a Fareast 23R on the northern end of Lake Champlain, but I still haven't seen them in person.

https://lcyc.info/files/PHRF Sportboat Matrix.pdf

If anyone wants to add more sportboats to this comparison, let me know and I will send you the file. I wish I had have done a separate column each for Melges 24 ODR and Melges 24 PHRF, because they have two different national reference ratings, but NRRs didn't exist when I started compiling data.

Cheers

Northwest melges24 is now 90

BC melges 24 is 84 now 

 

 

 

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Thanks. PHRF or ODR?

I may not do much more with that spreadsheet, since our PHRF region is pretty locked on NRRs for all the boats that have them, and I will probably be stepping down as our PHRF chair within the next year or two. We will continue to have at least one sportboat person on the PHRF board, which is good.

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We are locked into OD config. We will be be an X boat rating if we change anything. X for bend over and no lube. 

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Yes I would think so.  Why mess about with a good thing? Cheaper sails can be had from the big pro teams, so why would someone  customize a set of non one design sails. 

 

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2 hours ago, Streetwise said:

Thanks. Do you think most of the Melges 24 data I collected would represent ODR?

I don't think in all my years in the M24 class seen a boat the wasn't 100% class.  There's nothing to be gained, at all, with any mods.  The boat was designed 100% right from the beginning.  While the M30 has some calving issues (like first two keels dropping off), the M24 has never suffered same fate.  25 years on I get a hard-on every time I see one. 

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