kent_island_sailor

Trump vs. boat builders

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http://gcaptain.com/tariffs-are-wrecking-on-recreational-boat-building-industry/

By Reade Pickert (Bloomberg) — They’re Donald Trump’s kind of business. They dominate the domestic market, rack up a trade surplus by selling to foreigners, and do a lot of their manufacturing in states that voted for him.

But America’s recreational boat-builders are getting caught up in the president’s trade war. With every escalation, they’ve taken a fresh hit.

........

 

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I seem to recall that the last time the boat building industry got smashed by government it was Republicans who did it.

MAGA.

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49 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I seem to recall that the last time the boat building industry got smashed by government it was Republicans who did it.

MAGA.

Make Americans Groundhogs Again.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

I seem to recall that the last time the boat building industry got smashed by government it was Republicans who did it.

MAGA.

George H W Bush, in 1991. It was abolished just 2 years later for not being an effective defect-reduction tax it was intended. The Luxury Tax on cars remained an additional 10 years though. 

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The Luxury Tax was an unmitigated disaster for everyone in the marine industry,  speaking from experience was in Rhode Island when the brakes went on.

Trumps tariffs will have the same effect, it will impact the workers more than the the wealthy boat buyers who will simply go somewhere else.

Way to go Donny at the rate he's going the US will be teetering on the brink of an economic meltdown come November.

You have to wonder if Putin and his friends are busy shorting the market,  could be a nice little earner if you are in control of both the cause and outcome.

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Gropenfuhrer’s hatred for US boatbuilding companies is legend in my hometown. 

The lowlife fuckwit scumbag ( apologiesto lowlives, fuckwits, and scumbags)  stole $3,000,000 in product from the MFG Company in Union City, Pennsylvania.

 MFG was one  of the USA’s first and largest builders of runabouts and small rowable fiberglass fishing boats. MFG manufactured over a half million Ted Williams Gamefisher boats for  Sears. after  Gropenfuhrer stole the $3,000,000 of product from MFG,  that company never built another boat. 

Gropenfuhrer was in charge of building an evangelical Christian place in New Jersey called the Taj Majal when he ran off with Everybody else’s money. 

Apparently Canadian/ American  Mormons and canines support such behavior. ...

along with pussy grabbing

playing dirty old man in women’s dressing rooms 

fucking other women while married 

calling the honorable senators from the great states of Florida and Texas by disrespectful and childish names that would get  middle schooler in trouble

apparently Mormons support “moving on married women.... like a bitch.”

 

 

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5 hours ago, RKoch said:
6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I seem to recall that the last time the boat building industry got smashed by government it was Republicans who did it.

MAGA.

George H W Bush, in 1991. It was abolished just 2 years later for not being an effective defect-reduction tax it was intended. The Luxury Tax on cars remained an additional 10 years though. 

Congress makes tax policy and that was a Duopoly tax, not a partisan one.

It also made people realize the typo in the Bush campaign messaging. "KNOW NEW TAXES!"

That realization probably cost him reelection.

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We are on the lookout for a new (old) boat and are doing our best to find one in Canada since we would have to pay a 10% tariff on a used American-made boat as a result of Trump's stupid trade war. If we are successful it will mean something like US$70k staying in Canada that might have gone into the pocket of a US seller who will never even know that it happened, but the US GDP growth will be reduced by that amount. The US owner will sell his boat of course but the price will be, on average, a little lower than it might have been.

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So taxes suppress economic activity?

Whodathunk?

I wonder if that results in lower tax revenues? That'd be a Laffer.

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

So taxes suppress economic activity?

Whodathunk?

I wonder if that results in lower tax revenues? That'd be a Laffer.

It's called the laffer curve for a reason tom. curve, you know, not a straight line? Here's a picture:

laffer_curve_1.jpg?mtime=20170521114912

 

but I love how everyone trucks out the Laffer curve with the assumption we are on the right of the graph, not the left.

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Taxing recreational activities has vastly more impact than taxing income for one thing. Few people decide "well my income tax went up, no use going to work now", but PLENTY of people decide the new airplane/boat/RV/snowmobile/whatever tax is the last straw for that hobby.

For one good example, the changes in the tax code enacted during the Reagan years have pretty much put a stake in the heart of the general aviation industry. It isn't quite dead, but limps along missing arms and legs and one eye. Prior to Reagan*, there were tax scams schemes available that made airplanes almost free to buy because the IRS was getting the money otherwise. Exposing that discretionary income to full taxation was close to a death blow.

* NO ONE but a few morons ever paid the mythical 90 something % tax rate. Money was funneled into all kinds of things, see "The Producers" ;)

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1 hour ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

So taxes suppress economic activity?

Whodathunk?

I wonder if that results in lower tax revenues? That'd be a Laffer.

The economy was already heading into a recession. Reagan dealt Bush a poor hand. In the grand scheme of things, luxury tax revenue was the tiniest % of overall revenue, and its specific  impact on the economy was probably small. Note that the luxury tax remained in place on automobiles until 2003, and sales of luxury imports and SUVs grew stronger and had no apparent adverse effect on the recovering and booming economy. The tax did likely have a magnifying effect on the early 90s declining economy as not only customers stopped buying boats, but business profits down (less taxes) and employees laid off ( tax revenue down, plus social spending up). But it was the economy every bit as much, if not more, than the tax. The economy was going down, with or without the tax. And the economy recovered despite the tax remaining on automobiles. It just didn't recover for the marine industry, which largely moved offshore. 

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I'll also add that some of the booming 80s economy was untaxed drug money, and a good bit of that was spent on luxury goods creating a demand that was due to crash when the drug money dried up.

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45 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

For one good example, the changes in the tax code enacted during the Reagan years have pretty much put a stake in the heart of the general aviation industry. It isn't quite dead, but limps along missing arms and legs and one eye. Prior to Reagan*, there were tax scams schemes available that made airplanes almost free to buy because the IRS was getting the money otherwise. Exposing that discretionary income to full taxation was close to a death blow.

* NO ONE but a few morons ever paid the mythical 90 something % tax rate. Money was funneled into all kinds of things, see "The Producers" ;)

for point 1 - regulations have impacted the attractiveness of GA as well as changing local land use desires. The last one has been highly impacted by the 1986 tax reform. Enshirining housing as the leveraged tax advantaged asset available to the masses has killed recreation as we knew it. Boats, planes, golf, skiing, you name it has fallen to the real estate juggernaut.

for point 2 - heard storys of a Nashville record excecutive that kept around a Merecedes Pullman - and whenever he needed to funnel money he'd "take it to the shop"

tumblr_p4am7uuRiR1s7e0meo1_1280.jpg

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14 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
15 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

So taxes suppress economic activity?

Whodathunk?

I wonder if that results in lower tax revenues? That'd be a Laffer.

It's called the laffer curve for a reason tom. curve, you know, not a straight line? Here's a picture:

laffer_curve_1.jpg?mtime=20170521114912

 

but I love how everyone trucks out the Laffer curve with the assumption we are on the right of the graph, not the left.

So Trump's tariffs really are the path to prosperity and debt reduction? I'm still skeptical.

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6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

So Trump's tariffs really are the path to prosperity and debt reduction? I'm still skeptical.

Soaring healthcare costs have led to huge profits for the healthcare industry, even as some get priced out of the market. If coffee prices were to rise accordingly, the market would disappear and everyone would drink tea. 

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6 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

So Trump's tariffs really are the path to prosperity and debt reduction? I'm still skeptical.

Did someone claim they were?

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40 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Did someone claim they were?

 

Trump did....  He is a Mental Midget!

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17 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:
On 8/9/2018 at 4:26 AM, Uncooperative Tom said:

So Trump's tariffs really are the path to prosperity and debt reduction? I'm still skeptical.

Did someone claim they were?

A couple of posters seemed to contradict what I was sarcastically implying, particularly this one:

On 8/8/2018 at 2:40 PM, RKoch said:

The economy was going down, with or without the tax. And the economy recovered despite the tax remaining on automobiles. It just didn't recover for the marine industry, which largely moved offshore. 

So I guess some taxes are the path to prosperity, or at least don't suppress economic activity. Or maybe the auto industry survived despite the taxes...

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

You are trying to make a general rule about all taxes on everything from specific taxes on one thing.

It won't work.

I think anyone who has been in business knows this one is true:

Taxes suppress economic activity.

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13 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I think anyone who has been in business knows this one is true:

Taxes suppress economic activity.

Taxes also support needed infrastructure.

It's really really hard to have a successful business without roads leading to it, for example.

-DSK

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13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:
28 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I think anyone who has been in business knows this one is true:

Taxes suppress economic activity.

Taxes also support needed infrastructure.

It's really really hard to have a successful business without roads leading to it, for example.

-DSK

I like the one that leads to my house too. But the taxes that support it, though they are necessary, still suppress economic activity. In my case, probably the purchase of more boats.

If they were really tiny, they'd suppress it an imperceptible amount. If they were bigger, they'd suppress it more. Size and necessity don't affect the truth of the statement.

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5 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I like the one that leads to my house too. But the taxes that support it, though they are necessary, still suppress economic activity. In my case, probably the purchase of more boats.

If they were really tiny, they'd suppress it an imperceptible amount. If they were bigger, they'd suppress it more. Size and necessity don't affect the truth of the statement.

Ever heard of sinning by omission?

-DSK

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15 minutes ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I like the one that leads to my house too. But the taxes that support it, though they are necessary, still suppress economic activity. In my case, probably the purchase of more boats.

If they were really tiny, they'd suppress it an imperceptible amount. If they were bigger, they'd suppress it more. Size and necessity don't affect the truth of the statement.

Taxes can both promote economic activity (infrastructure like roads) and exert a cost upon growth for the taxes to pay for that infrastructure. For some of these things the total economic activity is greater than the cost of taxes so they are beneficial. I'm sorry your dogma prevents you from understanding this - or maybe you were just being a pedantic asshole like normal.

fuck it. lets just remove all the roads from your shithole part of Florida so you can spend lots more money on goods because transportation is much more expensive with dirt paths.

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When I had my insurance office, I had about $7,000 of office stuff that was taxable as tangible personal property.  It cost me $46.00 per year.  The leg and gov decided that I needed that $46.00 more that they did and exempted the first $25,000  from taxation.  My bill fell to $0.

A couple of weeks later when I opened up for the morning a business card fell from the door.  I looked at it and it was from a Fat Point PD officer and he had checked my door at 3:00 AM and that the door was looked and the premises secure.

I then asked myself, if I did not make a payment for this service, then who did?

I felt guilty and sent $46.00 of pizzas to the local elementary school.  

 

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I guess how you look at it, the greatest brake to economic activity is the military in that very little of that infrastructure actually does anything.  "Security" is a relative term and the net produce of the military is........nothing.  That is, except the warm fuzzy feelings that come from the ability to rattle a sabre in peace time.  The risk/reward profile on the military is stupidly on the side of excess.

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6 minutes ago, Laker said:

I guess how you look at it, the greatest brake to economic activity is the military in that very little of that infrastructure actually does anything.  "Security" is a relative term and the net produce of the military is........nothing.  That is, except the warm fuzzy feelings that come from the ability to rattle a sabre in peace time.  The risk/reward profile on the military is stupidly on the side of excess.

peace & security is one.

another is a reasonably well functioning legal system that protects property rights. it'is pretty cheap in tax expenditure relative to the massive economic benefits it can produce.

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58 minutes ago, Laker said:

I guess how you look at it, the greatest brake to economic activity is the military in that very little of that infrastructure actually does anything.  "Security" is a relative term and the net produce of the military is........nothing.  That is, except the warm fuzzy feelings that come from the ability to rattle a sabre in peace time.  The risk/reward profile on the military is stupidly on the side of excess.

Requirements from government if you want a competitive economy

  1. Clear property titles.(we take it for granted, but this seems a huge cause of failed economies).  Edit,   @Mismoyled Jiblet. nailed it.   Nobody invests in anything if it can all be lost to somebody with more power.
  2. protection of the individual from the powerful.  This keeps the established from squashing the up and coming, it’s lack is sometimes a weakness of Modern America, where lawyer budget is proportional to justice.
  3. protection of intellectual ideas.    This must balance against number two.
  4. government that doesn’t stifle entrepreneurs.    This must also balance number two.
  5. government free of corruption    America’s political money makes this a weakness relative to some locations.
  6. law enforcement sufficient that kidnapping, robbery, etc is rare and mostly happens to other people.
  7. military sufficient to avoid paying tribute, being pillaged or occupied.
  8. Efficient transportation
  9. reliable power
  10. reliable rapid communication.
  11. Educated healthy workforce.   
  12. resiliance from mishap.    This is FEMA  allowing regrowth after random bad luck so potential isn’t lost.   Recurrent bad luck shows a bad location being subsidized.

Insufficient levels of each item is economy choking.   Each will have some price point where the benefit is less then the cost.  Once you reach the “I’m not 1939 Poland” threshold, more military isn’t better.   Twice as much “nobody invaded me today” doesn’t equal more prosperity.

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16 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:
16 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

I like the one that leads to my house too. But the taxes that support it, though they are necessary, still suppress economic activity. In my case, probably the purchase of more boats.

If they were really tiny, they'd suppress it an imperceptible amount. If they were bigger, they'd suppress it more. Size and necessity don't affect the truth of the statement.

Taxes can both promote economic activity (infrastructure like roads) and exert a cost upon growth for the taxes to pay for that infrastructure. For some of these things the total economic activity is greater than the cost of taxes so they are beneficial. I'm sorry your dogma prevents you from understanding this - or maybe you were just being a pedantic asshole like normal.

fuck it. lets just remove all the roads from your shithole part of Florida so you can spend lots more money on goods because transportation is much more expensive with dirt paths.

Taxes don't build any roads. Spending does. And yes, it's beneficial overall, as I said. I like my road. And the others to which it leads. But the taxes that support them still act as a brake on economic activity, even if the spending acts as an accelerator that overpowers that brake. Sorry if your dogma prevents you from understanding the difference between taxing and spending. Not sure I am equipped to do the remedial education necessary in your case.

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3 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Taxes don't build any roads. Spending does. And yes, it's beneficial overall, as I said. I like my road. And the others to which it leads. But the taxes that support them still act as a brake on economic activity, even if the spending acts as an accelerator that overpowers that brake. Sorry if your dogma prevents you from understanding the difference between taxing and spending. Not sure I am equipped to do the remedial education necessary in your case.

That is like saying adding gas to my airplane slows it down because of the additional weight, but that effect is overcome by the engine being able to run now it has fuel :rolleyes:

Most people just say the plane won't go any faster than you can push it without gas ;)

Having 1st World infrastructure is a tremendous benefit to almost any business except people selling things like Unimogs and the other tools needed to live someplace where the government can't be arsed to build roads and bridges.

 

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:
4 hours ago, Uncooperative Tom said:

Taxes don't build any roads. Spending does. And yes, it's beneficial overall, as I said. I like my road. And the others to which it leads. But the taxes that support them still act as a brake on economic activity, even if the spending acts as an accelerator that overpowers that brake. Sorry if your dogma prevents you from understanding the difference between taxing and spending. Not sure I am equipped to do the remedial education necessary in your case.

That is like saying adding gas to my airplane slows it down because of the additional weight, but that effect is overcome by the engine being able to run now it has fuel :rolleyes:

Most people just say the plane won't go any faster than you can push it without gas ;)

Having 1st World infrastructure is a tremendous benefit to almost any business except people selling things like Unimogs and the other tools needed to live someplace where the government can't be arsed to build roads and bridges.

 

That's a cool fuckin' truck. Needs hiking straps, though 

As for infrastructure, both tangible and systemic, you guys just don't understand. Tom and his elk are the true examples of the free-man he-man. They were dropped off naked in the woods, and built everything they own with their two manly hands using sticks and rocks..... well, using one manly hand actually because the other hand was always clutching a gun. They don't need your stupid law enforcement, your pussy roads, etc etc. They should not be taxed to pay for all the wimpy shit the rest of us find necessary to survive.

-DSK

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I still like the socialist wonder...TATRA.

 

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On 8/10/2018 at 3:44 AM, Uncooperative Tom said:

A couple of posters seemed to contradict what I was sarcastically implying, particularly this one:

So I guess some taxes are the path to prosperity, or at least don't suppress economic activity. Or maybe the auto industry survived despite the taxes...

The American auto industry survived?? 

Really?? 

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On 8/10/2018 at 7:56 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

You are trying to make a general rule about all taxes on everything from specific taxes on one thing.

It won't work.

Hell man!! You are criticizing the fundamental form of American political argument. 

“The extreme is the official position of the other side.”

 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The American auto industry survived?? 

Really?? 

They survived the luxury tax. High end models are their most profitable and best selling.

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17 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Tom and his elk are the true examples of the free-man he-man. They were dropped off naked in the woods, and built everything they own with their two manly hands using sticks and rocks.

Which is why I said

 

On 8/10/2018 at 1:24 PM, Uncooperative Tom said:

I like the one that leads to my house too. But the taxes that support it, though they are necessary, still suppress economic activity.

Obviously, what I meant was that I DON'T like the road and would be just fine without it. Because whatever I said, it's best to assume I meant the opposite and then argue against that. Oh, and then mention guns to make sure all TeamD types know I'm the enemy.

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Tom - think on this.

Can you name a tax that is (or was) beneficial to economic activity in the USA and one that is harmful? We are talking net-net here, NO ONE enjoys paying taxes and I think we all know that.

I'll give you one to ponder - no one likes the gas tax when filling up an airplane, but we do like having airports to land at and navaids.

 

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On 8/11/2018 at 8:10 AM, Steam Flyer said:

That's a cool fuckin' truck. Needs hiking straps, though 

As for infrastructure, both tangible and systemic, you guys just don't understand. Tom and his elk are the true examples of the free-man he-man. They were dropped off naked in the woods, and built everything they own with their two manly hands using sticks and rocks..... well, using one manly hand actually because the other hand was always clutching a gun. They don't need your stupid law enforcement, your pussy roads, etc etc. They should not be taxed to pay for all the wimpy shit the rest of us find necessary to survive.

-DSK

I can see no roads- just drive your Unimog through people’s property, and see if the owners defend their property, or enforce some sort of payment to drive through their property.  If they don’t like you, tough shit!  Don’t get me started on waterways....

The west I grew up in would get like this if somebody wanted a shortcut through somebodies property out in the middle of nowhere, usually rock salt in a 12 gauge...  picking that out your butt really stung.....

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21 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Tom - think on this.

Can you name a tax that is (or was) beneficial to economic activity in the USA and one that is harmful?

Easy in both cases. Just renewed my fishing licenses. A beneficial tax in my view.

Now I get to go play in water polluted by Big $ugar, among others. The protective tariff on foreign sugar is a harmful tax.

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Right you are.  Better described as a user fee.

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10 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

Would like to read that, but not turning off AdBlock.....

Here is the original op-Ed piece as it appeared in the Washington Examiner.  Not sure it solves your ad issue.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/trumps-trade-war-is-squeezing-americas-boat-manufacturing-industry-and-its-workers

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1 minute ago, jerseyguy said:

Here is the original op-Ed piece as it appeared in the Washington Examiner.  Not sure it solves your ad issue.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/trumps-trade-war-is-squeezing-americas-boat-manufacturing-industry-and-its-workers

 

Works now, thanks Jersey bloke!!

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29 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Love to know who he voted for.

I'll play.  A CEO writing in a conservatsive, very right of center newspaper.  Trumpian all the way

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3 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

Right you are.  Better described as a user fee.

Yes, in that it doesn't apply to anyone who doesn't want to fish unless they want it to.

OK so I'll go for an even easier one. Trash day is coming. My property taxes go to that and things I hope I don't need like cops and firemen. Oh, and to that little detail of protecting my property rights. Also to stuff I don't like but overall a beneficial tax.

On 8/11/2018 at 9:47 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

That is like saying adding gas to my airplane slows it down because of the additional weight, but that effect is overcome by the engine being able to run now it has fuel :rolleyes:

Yes, what I'm saying is similar. And if your plane is like most small planes, you can't fill the seats, the cargo area, and the tanks all at once. Too much of a good thing (fuel) and you won't take off. Because it's a necessary burden, like taxes. But its weight is always a burden, like taxes.

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