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Annapolis - Powerboat on Sailboat Crime

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8 minutes ago, DDW said:

Just yes, at least qualified. If there is actually no bond at all between the blocks (no resin at all) and a significant gap, then you might have a shear zipper (or more exactly, all the shear strength will be dependent on the skins). The shear strength of many cores (though not balsa) is pretty low anyway. 

If you have ever cut apart a boat made with scored blocks, you know that *for sure* you cannot fill all the voids. You do what you can, and Scrimp probably does better than many methods, but there will still be voids. In most boats quite a lot of voids. If voids in a cored boat are actionable in court, every builder is in trouble. 

I tell you what: build a panel with no resin in the kerfs, and build another one with *only* the resin in the kerfs (no core). Tell me which one is stronger.

That's a false argument. You are ignoring plane strain vs plane stress. Thin layers of resin are not the same as thick blocks.
Thin skins not only have very little shear strength, they also have peel issues. Vertical sheer along a zipper leads to failure way way below the intended loading. In the middle of a panel, away from the supports, you can get away with it (low vertical shear, nearly pure biaxial panel bending) but near the frames, you have high shear.
It is not difficult to achieve proper wet out but you need the correct tools. You need a colored resin and a vibrator. Or a vacuum bagging method. Or a pre-wetting with appropriately thixed resin with the core opened to be saturated.

The real problem is that boatbuilding gets away with really poor practice. Try building an airplane with boatbuilding "skills" and you end up with dead people. I'm not an aircraft builder but I took courses with an aeronautical firm. Holy smokes was that an eye opener.

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44 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

 

One searay owner seems to understand better than the others.
Frankly the partisanship of the motorboaters is the shocking part.
 

image.png.e37953181b09ea04acbcad05d1efe2b3.png

He is posting on a Sea Ray owners forum but he says he owns a Nordic 40 and he joined the forum yesterday. http://clubsearay.com/index.php?members/jbaffoh.49301/

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Quick question, say your in this situation. Not a ton of wind, your not going anywhere near hull speed, you see a fishing boat barreling towards you. In an effort to get out of the way of the obviously oblivious power boater you turn on your engine (still warm from the harbor) and throw it full throttle forward. You get clipped and now are going to be at fault because now you're a power boat. I realize your supposed to use every available effort to avoid collision but does that change your jeopardy as to who is at fault? 

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22 minutes ago, miatapaul said:

Quick question, say your in this situation. Not a ton of wind, your not going anywhere near hull speed, you see a fishing boat barreling towards you. In an effort to get out of the way of the obviously oblivious power boater you turn on your engine (still warm from the harbor) and throw it full throttle forward. You get clipped and now are going to be at fault because now you're a power boat. I realize your supposed to use every available effort to avoid collision but does that change your jeopardy as to who is at fault? 

If you use the engine in an attempt to avoid a collision, I don't think you'd be liable. But it would have to be when collision is imminent, so it's unlikely it could be started and engaged in gear in time. 

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If you're using a flare to warn a powerboat of an imminent collision, use a meteor flare and fire it right at his windshield. The noise device is required anyway. Neither is likely to be effective if he doesn't see you anyway.

Sailboats standing on means don't do something stupid like tack into the path of a powerboat or run the wrong side of a channel. SB could be at fault if he does something egregious. 

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f57/question-about-colregs-rule-9-a-205196.html

 

 

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44 minutes ago, schessor said:

Thanks, that really filled in the blanks. I wondered what exactly he said.  Sounds like the captain was just quivering and did not know what to do. Heck the power boat had radar, that might have set of alarms. 

 

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Thanks to DDW and Fast on chiming in here on de-bulking vs SCRIMP. Maybe we could take this very valid topic to a new thread as it has some nomenclature and semantic things to sort out and is not really pertinent to the collision. I just thought the statement that a pre-SCRIMP hull was thought to be a greater loss than a SCRIMP one and de-bulking seems to be sort of a half way step towards SCRIMP. Vacuum is the key and seems to be part of the process but where do you draw the line. 'Can't de-bulk SCRIMP' and 300 lbs weight difference was what caught my attention. BTW here is a definition of de-bulking I came across.

Composite article debulking process

 

Abstract
A process for debulking a fiber reinforced composite structure prior to curing includes forming a stackup of a breather pad on a vacuum plate, a mandrel on the breather pad, a first release layer on the mandrel, a plurality of prepreg plies on the release first layer, a second release layer on the top ply, a breather sheet on the second release layer, and an impervious flexible vacuum bag sealed over the breather sheet to the vacuum plate; sealingly enclosing the stackup within a pressure vessel including an impervious flexible membrane which engages the vacuum bag; drawing a vacuum from within the vacuum bag through the breather pad and the vacuum plate; pressurizing the pressure vessel between the shell and the membrane; and maintaining the combination of vacuum and pressure for an interval of time to remove voids and porosity from the laminated prepregs.
 
 

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4 hours ago, fastyacht said:

That's a false argument. You are ignoring plane strain vs plane stress. Thin layers of resin are not the same as thick blocks.
Thin skins not only have very little shear strength, they also have peel issues. Vertical sheer along a zipper leads to failure way way below the intended loading. In the middle of a panel, away from the supports, you can get away with it (low vertical shear, nearly pure biaxial panel bending) but near the frames, you have high shear.
It is not difficult to achieve proper wet out but you need the correct tools. You need a colored resin and a vibrator. Or a vacuum bagging method. Or a pre-wetting with appropriately thixed resin with the core opened to be saturated.

The real problem is that boatbuilding gets away with really poor practice. Try building an airplane with boatbuilding "skills" and you end up with dead people. I'm not an aircraft builder but I took courses with an aeronautical firm. Holy smokes was that an eye opener.

Of course thin layers of resin are not the same as thick blocks, that is the point. And shear flow in such a complex structure is not easily described with terms like "zippers". If gaps in core caused instant or eventual failure, honeycomb as a core material would be useless: it is mostly gaps. The gaps we are talking about are smaller than typical honeycomb cells. In a typical sailboat laminate, a very large part of the shear strength of the panel is in the skins, not the core.

You might be successful in filling the gaps in core that has been saw kerfed, with the methods you describe. These gaps are large and more easily filled, or have the resin drawn into by vacuum techniques. You will not be successful with knife cut core. And practically, nearly every boat built with saw cut kerfs will have voids as well. You need to cut some apart to see what really happens, rather than what you hope might happen. 

I am actually familiar with composite aircraft construction. I own one and have been involved in their repair. For a lot of reasons, there are big differences in structures and methods.

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10 hours ago, schessor said:

He is posting on a Sea Ray owners forum but he says he owns a Nordic 40 and he joined the forum yesterday. http://clubsearay.com/index.php?members/jbaffoh.49301/

I could tell that some Anarchists were on a field trip. :)

From reading the Sea Ray forum, I can tell that these guys just don't understand the maneuverability differences between a powerboat capable of 40 kts and a sailboat capable of maybe 7 kts under power.  The power boater merely needs to flick his wrist to initiate a course change that would avoid a collision while the sailboat needs to initiate a much more drastic change much earlier to have the same effect.

How many times have we all been in a situation where a power boater passed close aboard and altered course the last moment, simply because the power boat can make that correction later and with much less effort? 

I'm betting Levitation watched the charter boat for quite some time and thought "He'll turn. He'll turn soon. He'll turn any second now. Holy shit, he's not turning" and by then it's too damned late.  When we try to be proactive and warn off a potential collision early, the power boaters give us the finger or roll their eyes as they blast by, mere yards away. "I saw you dumbass, quit worrying" is usually their attitude.

Most of the members of CSR take great pride in their boats and are incredibly helpful to one another.

From "Playdate" on the CSR forum.  This guy seems to think that taking pride in their boats and circling their community wagons against criticism is some kind of indicator of good seamanship. Not so.  Who cares if your boat is shiny but you think that everyone else should just get the hell out of your way?

I'm keenly aware that power boaters do not hold the monopoly on stupidity but these guys are really off the hook.

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7 hours ago, DDW said:

 If gaps in core caused instant or eventual failure, honeycomb as a core material would be useless: it is mostly gaps. The gaps we are talking about are smaller than typical honeycomb cells. In a typical sailboat laminate, a very large part of the shear strength of the panel is in the skins, not the core.

 

 

The gaps in honeycomb are not continuous, the shear transfer between the skins (a critical function of the core) is carries through the paper walls of the honeycomb.

In kerf sawn blocks, the continuous gap can allow a kink band to form. In pure bending this doesn't have any significant effect as there are no shear loads, but you seldom get pure bending outside a 4-point bend test, so in real life you have to consider the through thickness shear loading on the core. If that gives up you should expect core-skin delamination pretty fast.

image.png.da4a93dcdc1c07a6cc594c00bf5a1ea2.png

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Exactly.

And a shear zipper is this. Well, two of them:

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

Each of those dashes is an unfilled block boundary like the one John shows above. One followed by another.
If you have one isolated block boundary with no resin, not such a big deal. But a whole line of them, with a vertical shear load, and you have problems.
In honeycomb, there is no continuous gap. You have cells. That;s the whole point.
 

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19 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

au036-glastron-gt-150-live-and-let-die.j

 

the more I look at this the funnier it gets..  i like the angle on the motor for that maximum thrust..  must have wanted to get that nose up..

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26 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

the more I look at this the funnier it gets..  i like the angle on the motor for that maximum thrust..  must have wanted to get that nose up..

i would have figured that the engine hit the ramp and got tilted up that way.  still one of the great bond boat chase scenes

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The vertical shear strength of the cells of honeycomb are pretty small, especially if the line is drawn in the least advantageous direction. Let's look for a moment at the shear strengths of the materials: a typical layup might be 1" of 5 lb (knifecut) corecell with skins of 0.080" laminate. The corecell has a shear strength of 140 psi, so one inch linear will have a shear strength of 140 lbs. The laminate has at the very least the shear strength of the epoxy, at least 3000 psi and in practice more like 5000. 0.08 x 2 x 5000 = 800 lbs, over 5 times the shear strength of the core. The lack of core in a small sliver isn't missed much as it represents only 17% of the total. A line at the gap loaded strictly in shear could be expected to fail at only slightly less load than non-kerfed core. 

Obviously that is a very simplistic analysis and there are many other things going on there. The blocks are rarely completely without some resin between them, they are never loaded strictly in shear, the stiffnesses of the materials is vastly different, there are instability considerations in the thin skins, peel strengths of the skin, etc., etc. I believe that there will be shear stress risers in the skins at the gap, but these will be modest unless the gap is large. They will be mitigated because the gap is never complete, some resin oozes in as the diagram shows, it does not take much extra resin thickness to make the shear strength (and stiffness) higher there than over the core making it a strong point, not a weak point. If the kerf is filled to even half the skin thickness (0.04 in the example) with neat resin, it adds far more shear strength than the missing core takes away.

But I will repeat: It is a very rare cored boat that does not have some of these gaps, most have a tremendous amount of them. This can be proven a number of ways, the best is simply to cut one apart. They are not tearing apart on neat little lines. Those are facts that your theories must somehow accommodate. 

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13 hours ago, miatapaul said:

Quick question, say your in this situation. Not a ton of wind, your not going anywhere near hull speed, you see a fishing boat barreling towards you. In an effort to get out of the way of the obviously oblivious power boater you turn on your engine (still warm from the harbor) and throw it full throttle forward. You get clipped and now are going to be at fault because now you're a power boat. I realize your supposed to use every available effort to avoid collision but does that change your jeopardy as to who is at fault? 

pull out the 40mm flare gun and shoot the fucker..

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

The gaps in honeycomb are not continuous, the shear transfer between the skins (a critical function of the core) is carries through the paper walls of the honeycomb.

In kerf sawn blocks, the continuous gap can allow a kink band to form. In pure bending this doesn't have any significant effect as there are no shear loads, but you seldom get pure bending outside a 4-point bend test, so in real life you have to consider the through thickness shear loading on the core. If that gives up you should expect core-skin delamination pretty fast.

image.png.da4a93dcdc1c07a6cc594c00bf5a1ea2.png

fixit arnarchy is two doors down...  

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30 minutes ago, DDW said:

The vertical shear strength of the cells of honeycomb are pretty small, especially if the line is drawn in the least advantageous direction. Let's look for a moment at the shear strengths of the materials: a typical layup might be 1" of 5 lb (knifecut) corecell with skins of 0.080" laminate. The corecell 

.....

 

are not tearing apart on neat little lines. Those are facts that your theories must somehow accommodate. 

thread drift much?   take it to "I've sniffed too many resin fumes Anarchy" LOL

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14 hours ago, miatapaul said:

Quick question, say your in this situation. Not a ton of wind, your not going anywhere near hull speed, you see a fishing boat barreling towards you. In an effort to get out of the way of the obviously oblivious power boater you turn on your engine (still warm from the harbor) and throw it full throttle forward. You get clipped and now are going to be at fault because now you're a power boat. I realize your supposed to use every available effort to avoid collision but does that change your jeopardy as to who is at fault? 

Say you want to do this.  On my boat, to reach down to the key, turn it on, press the start button, engine catches, and reach over to the transmission lever on the wheel, throw it into gear, and then hit the throttle.  Say at least 5 seconds.  Then it takes a couple of seconds before you really notice any acceleration.  You are probably better off forgetting the engine and just turning the boat head to or stern to the oncoming powerboat to reduce your profile.

Powerboat is coming at you at 25knots.  In an area where there are alot of powerboats, it is not unusual for one to get within 200 feet or so.  At 200 feet, the impact is 5 seconds away.  Your engine wouldn't save you.

 

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17 hours ago, fastyacht said:

 

One searay owner seems to understand better than the others.
Frankly the partisanship of the motorboaters is the shocking part.
 

image.png.e37953181b09ea04acbcad05d1efe2b3.png

Give this guy a free membership to SA!

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On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 3:23 PM, Moonduster said:

Ras, you asked:

Are you saying that hand layup can achieve fractional fiber/resin weights higher than vacuum de-bulked SCRIMP does? 

But the question makes no sense as you can't debulk scrimp. You can certainly achieve lighter layup with hand layup of pre-preg that's been properly debulked.

Shang,

Get off your high horse already. Yes, you're correct that the words in the rules are Stand On, but the point remains the same. From the original photos and before the story unfolded, it wasn't clear whether the J105 was sailing or powered and if it had been powered it would have been the give-way vessel. Now go stuff your sanctimonious head up your self-righteous ass and stop pretending you're something you're so clearly not.

 

Moonduster - would advise NOT using that argument in a maritime court of law - Interesting how quoting the ACTUAL rule requires me -in your eyes - to 'be on my high horse'. The point is that, no actually the fact is that Rule 5 & Rule 6 are fundamental to the application of the ColRegs, particularly in regard to Rule 6. It is rather like blaming a pedestrian for getting knocked down on the sidewalk because he couldn't jump out of the way of the speeding drunk driver fast enough.

 If your only recourse to someone who states fact is pathetic childish insults then clearly your educational level is nothing for me to worry about.

So tell me - what DO YOU think I am pretending to be that I am clearly not?, sorry SO clearly not!

I'm out of here

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On 8/20/2018 at 1:00 PM, Lex Teredo said:

I suppose Geico should have just had Bobby Muller glass the two boats together, to avoid further damage to the 105?

I guess my point was that there may be a way to minimize the damage when taking them apart. I don't think it makes sense to keep them together or even to put liability on the people who take them apart.

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I have just read the first few posts schessor put up in the links and is it scary/sobering reading. Thanks for the links by the way.

These guys have a TOTAL lack of understanding under their obligations under the IRPCAS Rules.

It almost sounds as if the idiots on the motorboat should have been flying their day shapes for "Not under command". How any skipper or helm - on a day where the first statement claims perfect visibility - cannot see a 30 foot high sailing boat mast beggars belief.

At "30 knots" a power boat is doing half a mile a minute and for a helm NOT to be looking where they are going for the amount of time the sailing boat would have been visible and still not been able to avoid a collision is not just irresponsible but entirely culpable.

Just sayin'

SS

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On 8/21/2018 at 6:19 AM, Ajax said:
On 8/20/2018 at 7:54 PM, schessor said:

He is posting on a Sea Ray owners forum but he says he owns a Nordic 40 and he joined the forum yesterday. http://clubsearay.com/index.php?members/jbaffoh.49301/

I could tell that some Anarchists were on a field trip. :)

From reading the Sea Ray forum, I can tell that these guys just don't understand the maneuverability differences between a powerboat capable of 40 kts and a sailboat capable of maybe 7 kts under power.  The power boater merely needs to flick his wrist to initiate a course change that would avoid a collision while the sailboat needs to initiate a much more drastic change much earlier to have the same effect.

How many times have we all been in a situation where a power boater passed close aboard and altered course the last moment, simply because the power boat can make that correction later and with much less effort? 

I'm betting Levitation watched the charter boat for quite some time and thought "He'll turn. He'll turn soon. He'll turn any second now. Holy shit, he's not turning" and by then it's too damned late.  When we try to be proactive and warn off a potential collision early, the power boaters give us the finger or roll their eyes as they blast by, mere yards away. "I saw you dumbass, quit worrying" is usually their attitude.

 

Quote

Most of the members of CSR take great pride in their boats and are incredibly helpful to one another.

 

From "Playdate" on the CSR forum.  This guy seems to think that taking pride in their boats and circling their community wagons against criticism is some kind of indicator of good seamanship. Not so.  Who cares if your boat is shiny but you think that everyone else should just get the hell out of your way?

I'm keenly aware that power boaters do not hold the monopoly on stupidity but these guys are really off the hook.

If that's the SeaRay forum, how bad is the Bayliner forum? Holy hell.

How many times have we all been in a situation where a power boater passed close aboard and altered course the last moment, simply because the power boat can make that correction later and with much less effort? 

Too many times. The last time was this summer seven miles off the beach. Inbound "sportfish" (boat turned out to be an express cruiser about 40' with outriggers, fairly ghetto setup) I see is on collision course, on radar going 28knts. I'm sailing at 6.5 knots. No turn at about 250 yards, so I'm getting ready to jibe the boat and start hailing. Guy finally responds on third call and turns passing 20 or 30 yards ahead, seven frikken miles from the beach. "What can I do for you" he asks. I told him give way with a proper turn and pass well behind and noted his vessel for the radio recording in case he's a serial dickhead. Sometimes I think powerboaters are intimidated by sailboats and pass close to demonstrate their inferiority complex. He had to make a harder turn by waiting that long, so why do that unless you think you're stand-on, you aren't keeping a lookout, or you're being a twat?

Mostly I'm noticing pretty civil behavior from powerboats, however. Nine out of ten big boats even slow down when passing in the ICW I'd estimate.

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Meanwhile in Canada...

Boater who injured three gets jail on weekends

Louise Dickson / Times Colonist

August 22, 2018 06:00 AM

A Central Saanich boater who seriously injured three members of a family when he crashed into their boat in Tod Inlet after the Butchart Gardens fireworks has been allowed to serve a 90-day jail sentence on weekends.

Michael Gettle is prohibited from driving a boat for 10 years and, following his jail sentence, will be on probation for 18 months.

In May, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Jennifer Power convicted Gettle of three counts of dangerous operation of a motor vessel causing bodily harm. She acquitted Gettle on three counts of criminal negligence causing bodily harm to Earl, Anne and Brent Henderson.

The crash happened about 10 p.m. on Aug. 1, 2015, as boaters were leaving the area after watching the Butchart Gardens fireworks.

The Crown sought a 12-month jail sentence. Defence lawyer Ryan Drury asked for the intermittent sentence, followed by probation.

Power found the intermittent sentence appropriate because of Gettle’s role as a caregiver to his spouse, who has a degenerative spinal disease.

She noted a period of straight time would be a hardship for Gettle’s family, that he expressed remorse and might also be facing civil consequences.

The Hendersons have life-altering and ongoing injuries, Power said. It was only good luck that no one was killed that night, she said.

“Mr. Gettle’s operation of the motor vessel was an accident waiting to happen,” Power said in May. “Mr. Gettle’s decision to put his boat on plane in order to see over the bow is inexplicable to me, given his knowledge of boat traffic in the area and his knowledge of boating. He should have been proceeding dead slow, as noted by many of the witnesses.”

Operating a boat on plane occurs when the speed is sufficient to cause lift to increase and the boat, in effect, rides over its bow wave.

Crown witness Gary Rogers testified water traffic was “horrendous” because of the large number of boats leaving the inlet at the same time.

Crown witness Phil Graham said Tod Inlet was crowded with smaller vessels and “a ton of kayaks.” He testified he heard a motor boat gunning its engine and coming up to a high rate of speed and that he tried to get the operator to stop. Graham estimated there were 25 boats in the area when he heard the collision.

Brent Henderson, who was badly injured in the crash, testified that he and his father had two bow lights on and were keeping a lookout to avoid kayaks and canoes. He heard the sound of an engine, turned around and shouted a warning just before the crash.

Crown witness Kent Lindahl testified that he saw the boat on plane, going about 32 to 40 kilometres per hour, making no attempt to slow down or avoid collision.

Power accepted this evidence and concluded boating conditions that night were hazardous.

The judge also accepted the evidence of witness Wayne Hart, who had been driving Gettle’s boat earlier that day. Hart testified that the boat would have to be going 32 to 48 kilometres an hour to be on plane.

The judge accepted Gettle’s evidence in part — that he increased his speed and put the boat on plane as it left the area. But she found he minimized the hazard posed by the heavy boat traffic, especially the canoes and kayaks without lights.

She did not believe Gettle’s evidence that the boat went on plane at 10 to 15 kilometres an hour.

Power wasn’t sure if something else happened to distract Gettle.

“Even if an unforeseen incident occurred on the boat, Mr. Gettle should have been in a position to respond to it,” she said.

“By travelling on plane, he was travelling in a manner that was dangerous.”

ldickson@timescolonist.com

related

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/boater-who-injured-three-gets-jail-on-weekends-1.23408255

Wild West on the water: Family tells of crash’s toll

Louise Dickson / Times Colonist

June 3, 2018 06:00 AM

Quiet filled the dark sky over Brentwood Bay.

It was the long weekend in August 2015. The fireworks at Butchart Gardens had just ended.

Anne and Earl Henderson, retired phys-ed teachers in their mid-70s, and their 57-year-old son, Brent, waited 30 minutes for the slow procession of boats to leave Tod Inlet. They tucked their power boat in behind a flotilla of 21 kayaks and started making their way home.

Earl and Brent stood at the front of their boat, on the lookout for paddlers without lights coming across their bow. Then Anne heard a boat start and knew right away it was going too fast.

Brent looked back, then turned to his father, saying: “There’s a boat coming on your left and it’s coming fast.”

Earl nodded.

“And then I heard this noise,” Anne says. “I thought I should recognize this noise. I realized it was water going around the hull.

“I started to turn my head. I didn’t get to my shoulder before they hit us.”

When she came to, Anne checked to see if could move her head and legs. She could. She was holding her arm. She knew it was badly broken.

“I tried to look around and realized I was on top of Earl and he was face down unconscious in the back of the boat with his head in the engine well.”

Brent had been slammed over the seat into the back of the boat. He reached over to pull her up, but she told him not to touch her painful right arm.

Anne faded in and out of consciousness. She thought she heard the other boat reversing off their boat and tried to say: “Don’t let him go. Don’t let him go.”

She’s not sure she said the words aloud.

Then she heard a voice: “Ma’am, I’m a kayaker and I’m here to help you. Ma’am, I’m coming on your boat to help you.”

Brent started to yell. The boat was sinking. The water was rising.

Their rescue is a blur. Anne doesn’t remember how she and her family were brought ashore and taken to hospital.

- - -

On Wednesday, Central Saanich boater Michael Gettle was convicted of three counts of dangerous operation of a motor vessel causing bodily harm to Earl, Anne and Brent Henderson.

During Gettle’s trial in B.C. Supreme Court, Kent Lindahl, owner and operator of a 48-foot fishing trawler, testified that he and his friends saw the collision.

They raced over in the rescue boat to pull everyone from both boats to safety.

“We believe we’re lucky we’re alive,” Earl says. “If any of us had gone into the water, we wouldn’t have been able to save ourselves. All I remember is waking up moaning. I felt paralyzed. I couldn’t move anything — my fingers, my toes. If I’d gone into the water, I don’t think I’d be here today.”

“I know I couldn’t have saved myself,” Anne says.

At the hospital, doctors found she had 17 broken ribs, a punctured lung and a shattered right elbow. “The surgeon told me he only found one piece of bone big enough to give me an elbow,” she says.

Earl suffered trauma to his neck and a broken shoulder.

Brent, who is an RCMP officer on the Lower Mainland, had five fractures in his back. “He’s had major trouble and he’s still suffering,” Earl says.

The Hendersons, who call themselves fitness nuts, believe their good physical conditioning at the time saved their lives.

Anne, who was going to compete at the Canadian badminton championships, has been forced to adjust her game. She lost grip strength in her shattered arm and can’t even accept change in the grocery store in her right hand without the change falling to the floor. She can’t open pill bottles or jars. Friends help her in and out of coats.

“She’s got some great shots because nobody knows where it’s going,” Earl says with a laugh.

“Sometimes my racket isn’t even facing the right direction,” Anne says.

Anne believes her health has been compromised by the collision. Her liver was damaged. She’s had bronchitis every year since. Her left lung filled with fluid.

“They had to put a needle in my back and stick a straw through all the broken ribs and drain it. And they had to do it twice and it was so awful,” she says.

“I feel I’ve lost 2 1/2 years completely of my life trying to rehab so I can pick up the pieces of our life. I can’t go back to cycling or kayaking. And I’m terrified of falling, because which part of your body do you want to hit the ground?”

The trauma has made them more emotional, Earl says.

“I’ve been on pins and needles since this happened. It doesn’t take much to make us burst out. This morning, I knocked a metal tube of gel in the sink,” he says. “We have a startle response. I can’t even imagine what soldiers coming back day after day from this stuff go through. It’s got to be so brutal. I got the tiniest hint of what they’ve gone through. It’s amazing how much it affects you.”

Their 20-year-old boat, which was like new, was a writeoff. They’ve spent $30,000 to replace it. They’ve also spent $7,000 on life-jackets, paddles, fire extinguishers and safety equipment, as well as on extra medical, physiotherapy and psychology appointments. On board their new boat, Anne always wears a new life-jacket that inflates when it hits the water.

The Hendersons want people to know that Gettle had no liability insurance.

“I’m not really sure that people realize when they go out on a boat, they’re really taking their lives in their hands. It’s the Wild West out there,” Anne says.

“I believe everybody should have a decal on their boat that says you have at least liability insurance. … It’s not a right to own a boat, it’s a privilege, and you need to be responsible.”

- - -

Victoria lawyer Darren Williams is a marine accident expert, retained by other law firms to provide marine law advice.

He thinks Anne Henderson’s comment about the Wild West is pretty fair, especially compared with the automobile insurance industry.

He says buying boat insurance is the responsible thing and strongly advises boaters to buy at least liability-only coverage.

“The federal government regulates boating safety and it has never stepped in and made marine insurance mandatory for recreational vessels,” Williams says. “And a lot of people don’t like the costs of the premiums. They think about insurance as a means of protecting their own property from loss or damage, and they don’t consider the effect it will have on other people who might be injured and need insurance to compensate.”

Marine insurance is like home insurance, he says. People buy home insurance to protect the value of their property in case it burns down. But it typically also includes at least $1 million in liability coverage if people are sued for doing something stupid.

“I had a friend who was riding his bike down the road and knocked an older fellow off his feet. He faced a $400,000 judgment that would have bankrupted him, but his home insurance kicked in,” Williams says.

“A lot of people think: ‘My boat’s not worth much money. Why would I spend $1,200 a year to insure it when the boat’s only worth $5,000?’

“What they don’t appreciate is the liability portion of the insurance that protects them from being sued and — more importantly — gives other people who have been wrongfully injured somewhere to get compensation.”

It may not be economical to insure a $2,000 boat, but you can still do a lot of harm with a $2,000 boat, he says. In these cases, he recommends buying liability-only insurance because it gives boaters coverage in case they are sued.

“I really encourage people not to think about it in terms of ‘Well, it will protect me,’ but rather that it provides somebody else the protection if my mistakes hurt them.”

The Marine Liability Act, which is a federal law, states that in the case of collisions, groundings, capsizings and fires, there’s a legal presumption that the boat owner is negligent.

“So that’s kind of like half your case already won,” Williams says.

For vessels under 300 tonnes, which includes almost all pleasure vessels, there’s a $1-million limit of liability on the owner and the operator. If one person is injured, all that person can collect is $1 million. If five people are injured, they can collect $1 million in total.

“That is one of the reasons that marine insurance is more affordable than other insurance because there’s a legislated cap on the damages,” Williams says. “But it’s an unfortunate cap for people who are injured.”

- - -

When Derren Lench, deputy chief of Central Saanich police, arrived in the municipality at the end of August 2015, he started taming the Wild West show out on the water.

“There was a definite gap in our presence on the water, specifically Brentwood Bay, and that gave me some real discomfort,” Lench says. “This horrific boating accident allowed us to shine a lens on the greater issue of safety on the water. We took proactive steps to eliminate future boating accidents.”

Lench and a team of officers came up with a marine safety plan in the fall of 2015 for use in the summer of 2016. Central Saanich police partnered with the RCMP South Island Integrated Marine Unit.

“I met with the corporal in charge of the unit and said: ‘I’d love to get a boat on the water every Saturday night in the summer to deal with the traffic related to the fireworks.’ ”

The department approved the overtime, sending an officer out on the boat with the RCMP to patrol Brentwood Bay on Saturdays, from late afternoon until the Butchart Gardens fireworks end.

“We were out every Saturday night,” Lench says. “We shared it around to whichever officers were available. It gave them the opportunity to get out on the water. They learned about the Canada Shipping Act, small vessel regulations or individuals drinking on the boat.”

A Central Saanich officer also goes out on the RCMP boat every second Thursday to patrol Brentwood Bay, he says. “We’re showing the citizens we are out there partnering with the RCMP, getting to know the marine part of our area.”

The stepped-up enforcement has been successful, he says. The Saturday night patrols gave out violation tickets for various offences. Officers check to make sure boat operators have proper lighting, life-jackets and a bailer. Two boaters have been charged with impaired operation of a vessel.

“We’ve received positive feedback from the public in the Brentwood Bay area,” Lench says. “They’ve noticed our presence. The waters are safer. Boats are more respectful of the law.”

ldickson@timescolonist.com

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/wild-west-on-the-water-family-tells-of-crash-s-toll-1.23323194

Boater who injured three in crash found guilty

Louise Dickson / Times Colonist

May 31, 2018 05:21 AM

A Central Saanich boater who seriously injured three members of a family when he crashed into their boat in Tod Inlet has been convicted of three counts of dangerous operation of a motor vessel causing bodily harm.

B.C. Supreme Court Justice Jennifer Power found the way Michael Gettle operated his power boat was a marked departure from the standard of care of a reasonable person in the circumstances.

“I conclude, based on Mr. Gettle’s own evidence, that he was operating his boat in a manner that was dangerous. … Mr. Gettle’s operation of the motor vessel was an accident waiting to happen,” Power said Wednesday.

“Mr. Gettle’s decision to put his boat on plane in order to see over the bow is inexplicable to me, given his knowledge of boat traffic in the area and his knowledge of boating. He should have been proceeding dead slow, as noted by many of the witnesses.”

Because of uncertainty in some of the evidence, Power acquitted the 50-year-old Gettle on three counts of criminal negligence causing bodily harm to Earl, Anne and Brent Henderson.

The crash happened about 10 p.m. on Aug. 1, 2015, when boaters were leaving the area after watching the Butchart Gardens fireworks.

Crown witness Gary Rogers testified that the water traffic was “horrendous” because of the large number of boats all wanting to leave the inlet at the same time.

Crown witness Phil Graham said Tod Inlet was crowded with smaller vessels and “a ton of kayaks.” He testified that he heard a motor boat gunning its engine and coming up to a high rate of speed and tried to get the operator to stop. Graham estimated there were 25 boats in the area when he heard the collision.

Brent Henderson, a 32-year veteran of the RCMP who was badly injured in the crash, testified that he and his father had two bow lights on and were keeping a lookout to avoid kayaks and canoes. He heard the sound of an engine, turned around and shouted a warning just before the crash.

Crown witness Kent Lindahl testified that he saw the boat on plane, going about 32 to 40 kilometres per hour, making no attempt to slow down or avoid collision.

Power accepted this evidence and concluded boating conditions that night were hazardous.

“The only safe way to leave the area was dead slow or at the lowest speed possible to have the engine engaged,” Power said.

The judge also accepted the evidence of witness Wayne Hart, who had been driving Gettle’s boat earlier that day. Hart testified that the boat would have to be going 32 to 48 kilometres per hour to be on plane.

Power did not accept the evidence of defence witness Candina Collard. She testified that just before the crash, Hart said “Watch this,” then stood up and leaned across Gettle and the boat sped up. Power was concerned Collard only described the collision in those terms in her third statement to police.

The judge accepted Gettle’s evidence in part — that he increased his speed and put the boat on plane as it left the area. But she found he minimized the hazard posed by the heavy boat traffic, especially the canoes and kayaks without lights.

She did not believe Gettle’s evidence that the boat went on plane at 10 to 15 kilometres per hour. She found as fact that it would have to be going 32 to 40 kilometres per hour to go on plane.

Power wasn’t sure if something else happened to distract Gettle.

“Even if an unforeseen incident occurred on the boat, Mr. Gettle should have been in a position to respond to it,” said the judge. “By travelling on plane, he was travelling in a manner that was dangerous.”

All four passengers on Gettle’s boat were thrown into the water. Gettle was trapped under his boat.

“It is only a result of good luck and quick thinking of rescuers that someone was not killed or more seriously injured,” said Power.

Defence lawyer Ryan Drury asked the court to order a report to assist with sentencing. The report is expected to take up to eight weeks.

The maximum sentence for dangerous operation of a motor vessel causing bodily harm is 10 years. A conditional sentence is not available.

ldickson@timescolonist.com

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/boater-who-injured-three-in-crash-found-guilty-1.23320030

 

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3 hours ago, lasal said:

Snip      so why do that unless you think you're stand-on, you aren't keeping a lookout, or you're being a twat?

snip

It's being a twat and has nothing to do with sailboats necessarily. I've had the exact same thing happen from bigger powerboats when I'm running in open water in a 21 foot open motorboat. I mean exactly.

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Did you all get this?

>>>

Yesterday, I was passenger on a 34' fishing charter out the eastern shore MD below the bridge. We had fished all morning and by noon we headed in. It was brand new dead rise boat, first trip out. 6 passengers plus the Captain.

We were underway for about 10 minutes, and I estimate our speed was around 30 knots.

Visibility was unlimited.

Most of the passengers were hanging out enjoying the ride, and no one was really paying attention the situation on the water.

I was on a port side bench seat, looking toward the stern. Suddenly, a guy yells "WATCH OUT!!!". I spun around to look forward and all I saw was white sail through the windshield.
Then impact. We t-boned a 30' sailboat with 2 guys in the cockpit. We were thrown to the deck. Now we are on top of the sailboat as you can see by the picture below.

Our captain was kind of dazed, so being an experienced boater, I first told everyone to grab a life vest. We did a head count and injury check and nothing serious beyond cuts, scrapes, and bruises. I could not tell what was happening on the sail boat. Anyway, I turned on the marine radio and Mayday'ed. CG answers and I give GPS coordinates. The guys in the sailboat are shaken up but ok (everyone was shaken up but no panic).

So now we are sitting up on top of the sail boat, with our stern precariously close to being swamped. I found the bilge pump switch and turned it on to "auto" but it did not appear to be working. Switch to manual mode and it started pumping water overboard. The switch set up required that you hold the switch down for the pump to work.

Now I'm at the helm holding this fricking switch down, dangerously close to swamping, and I'm thinking if we swamp, I'm gonna be trapped in the cockpit with no way out. It was kind of dicey at that point.

CG arrives about 15 minutes later and transfers the sail boaters to another boat, then they start to transfer the 6 passengers from the charter to another boat. I have to admit that the CG did an awesome job. Once we were all safely transferred, the CG actually went back to the charter boat and retrieved our coolers!!

DNR, Marine Police, Fire Boats, Tow Boats, we had 'em all.

I was kind of surprised that only 1 boater offered assistance.

So, as far as I know, no serious injuries, but we were so lucky in that respect. It could have been a whole lot worse.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how this happened. Broad daylight, Captain was not drinking, etc. One guy said that he thought the sail boat changed tack.

I guess my big lesson is this: Stay far away from all other boats because you don't know what they might do.

Sharing this story reluctantly since the Captain is a good guy, but it's all over the news anyway. As a Captain of your vessel, be alert at all times. Don't put yourself in a situation where you are too close to other boats. As a passenger, be a second set of eyes for the Captain. Give wide berth to other vessels.

Stuff happens fast.

I have this anxiety right now about boating, but I'm gonna go down to my 27' Sun Dancer and do some maintenance work. I'm sure I'll get over it but I'll not forget yesterday.[\quote]

WTF??
Sounds like the "Captain" was out of it and a random passenger took care of everyone.

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Yes, most of this was covered earlier, having been snapped from a SeaRay forum or something.

One guy said that he thought the sail boat changed tack.

Oh well, that makes all the difference. Obviously it's all the sailboat's fault.  He probably rocketed right into the power boat's path after changing tacks. Hell, I'm surprised that anyone on the power boat even knows what a "tack" is.

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I read it as the captain was dazed after the collision, as opposed to being dazed beforehand.  Assuming the impact was enough to throw a body to impact the interior of the boat, dazed seems an expected outcome.  Hit anything at 30 and being dazed is reasonably expected.

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Just now, NaptimeAgain said:

I read it as the captain was dazed after the collision, as opposed to being dazed beforehand.  Assuming the impact was enough to throw a body to impact the interior of the boat, dazed seems an expected outcome.  Hit anything at 30 and being dazed is reasonably expected.

Maybe he was dazed beforehand and that is why he ran right into a highly visible object on a clear day???

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Reminds me of the time we went camping at Whites on Catalina with our daughters in YMCA Indian Princesses.  One of the dads had an Ocean 55 sportfisher, so he takes a few of us over so we didn't have to ride the cattle boat - nice!   Sunday morning after we got underway and cleared the cove he throttled up to 20 kts and set the autopilot for Dana Pt.  He knew I had a sailboat so he hands me the watch while he goes below to inspect the engine room.  He didn't go over the controls with me at all before this.  

At 20 kts things happen fast, I'm up on this flying bridge and he was gone no more than a couple of minutes when I saw a 30ish foot sailboat ahead, motoring in toward Long Point.  After looking at this boat on a steady relative bearing for a minute or so I realized one of us better alter course.  Fortunately I'd seen him engage the AP, so I disengaged it and turned us gently to starboard.  Scared the bejesus out of me turning a 55' boat going that fast, but I probably altered course no more than 15 degrees and we passed well clear of the sailboat.  

By the time the owner made his way back up we were well past the sailboat and I had a new appreciation as to how much of a sitting duck I am on my 5ksb. 

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Anyway, I turned on the marine radio and Mayday'ed. CG answers and I give GPS

 

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50 minutes ago, Greyhound37 said:

Anyway, I turned on the marine radio and Mayday'ed. CG answers and I give GPS

 

Any update on the findings of this?  I heard a rumor that the fishing boat captain is being cleared of any fault.  It is a rumor but still?

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4 minutes ago, T sailor said:

Any update on the findings of this?  I heard a rumor that the fishing boat captain is being cleared of any fault.  It is a rumor but still?

No official word has been published that I can find.  I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle about such a rumor.

I do expect that the CG will assign some portion of responsibility to each party (yes, even the sailboat) but I also expect that the power boat skipper will by far, be assigned a much greater portion of responsibility.

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9 minutes ago, T sailor said:

Any update on the findings of this?  I heard a rumor that the fishing boat captain is being cleared of any fault.  It is a rumor but still?

I would figure on a matter of a few weeks or months for the Coast Guard to finish the investigation.    Which then will typically decide if further preventative measures are needed, and whether there was any negligence or violation of regulation by any licensed mariner (read: Captain).    Chain of Command stuff, takes a certain amount of time.  

  

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First question is who was driving? Any chance the boat owners son with DWI's was driving from the cockpit station?

 

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23 hours ago, NaptimeAgain said:

I read it as the captain was dazed after the collision, as opposed to being dazed beforehand.  Assuming the impact was enough to throw a body to impact the interior of the boat, dazed seems an expected outcome.  Hit anything at 30 and being dazed is reasonably expected.

 

was this another one of the "captain's"  charters

 

 

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I think what station they were driving from has a lot to do with it. I bet they were driving from that rear station. the rear station on commercial boats like these are for when the boat is actively fishing at slow speed so the captain can help out. These stations were never meant for operating at wide open throttle.

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7 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

was this another one of the "captain's"  charters

 

 

There are like, 290 version of that posted on Youtube and you had to post the fuzziest, most cloned version of all of them. :)

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51 minutes ago, Ajax said:

There are like, 290 version of that posted on Youtube and you had to post the fuzziest, most cloned version of all of them. :)

Your comment made me think of this old joke,

A young man grew fed up with modern life and decided to leave the big city 
and become a shepherd, spending months in the seclusion of the distant 
mountains alone with his thoughts and sheep. So he went up the high 
mountains where he found three older shepherds with a big flock of 
sheep, and asked them to show him the ropes. The shepherds agreed.
 
The young man spent a week with them. One evening by the fire he asked 
casually,"So how do you guys get by with no women around here?"
Said one of the men,"Why, with so many sheep around, who needs women?" 
The youngster shuddered: "Yak!  How horrible!  How can you...?"
The three men only smiled and said nothing.

Another week passed and one morning the young man realized that the 
tension in his groin had grown unbearable. He remembered what the men had
said, and looking at the sheep, thought, "Hmm, why not after all...". 
He chose a moment when none of the older shepherds were around, and grabbed 
one of the nearest sheep. However, the others showed up in a minute, and 
seeing him with the sheep burst out laughing.

"What? What?!!", shouted the young man, blushing. "You told me that's what 
you did yourselves, didn't you??!"

"Yeah, sure! But to choose the ugliest one??!"

 

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6 hours ago, USA 5184 said:

I think what station they were driving from has a lot to do with it. I bet they were driving from that rear station. the rear station on commercial boats like these are for when the boat is actively fishing at slow speed so the captain can help out. These stations were never meant for operating at wide open throttle.

A client on the powerboat who  "was on a port side bench seat, looking toward the stern " said " I normally do keep a look out but the cockpit was full and I did get complacent. That won’t happen again. Thing is, it wasn’t like there was a ton of boat traffic either. And I felt confident in the Captain. There was one other guy next to the helm (a fellow boater) and he didn’t sound an alarm. " .  I had assumed that meant the captain was in the cockpit at the forward helm, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

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7 hours ago, Ajax said:

There are like, 290 version of that posted on Youtube and you had to post the fuzziest, most cloned version of all of them. :)

Yes this one is much better.....and includes post crash......

 

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The powerboat did not see the sailing vessels.  The sailing vessels certainly at least heard the approaching powerboat.  The sailing vessel had little chance to avoid.  Like a kid or woman looking down and texting emojis.  The powerboat person in command is hopelessly trying to come up with a story outside of "I fucked up.... " 

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Meanwhile:

http://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/sailing_boating/ac-cn-boat-collision-survivor-0827-story.html

Andorsky and a friend were on the sailboat, named the Levitation, while seven people were on the commercial charter powerboat, called The Hunter. No one was injured, according to the Coast Guard, which is still investigating the accident. 

Chet Clough, owner of Chesapeake Bay Charter Services, said he won’t comment on the crash during the investigation.  “The Coast Guard will make the determination on who’s at fault,” he said. 

Andorsky, meanwhile, insists he isn’t to blame.  Conditions were clear on Aug. 17 when he and his friend took out a J/105 sailboat that belongs to the Chesapeake Boating Club in Eastport, where Andorsky is a member. 

He said he saw the power boat “way off in the distance” and knew they were probably on a collision course. Motorboats typically give way to a sailboat, so Andorsky said he stayed his course.  And then it was too late.  “I’m waving at the guy, yelling, and all of a sudden, his boat was sitting on top of our boat,” Andorsky said. 

Andorsky was sitting in the back of the sailboat by the wheel and his friend was a couple feet in front of him on the port side. He said he believes he and his friend would have been killed if the powerboat struck much closer to the stern of his sailboat. And if the sailboat hadn’t been heeling to starboard, the powerboat could have broken it in half, he said.

According to my BIL the boat is on the hard in a marina off the Chester River.

Levitation.jpg

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On 8/21/2018 at 8:56 AM, DDW said:

h skins of 0.080" laminate. The corecell has a shear strength of 140 psi, so one inch linear will have a shear strength of 140 lbs. The laminate has at the very least the shear strength of the epoxy, at least 3000 psi and in practice more like 5000. 0.08 x 2 x 5000 = 800 lbs,

God, how can you do engineering in inches....

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12 hours ago, schessor said:

A client on the powerboat who  "was on a port side bench seat, looking toward the stern " said " I normally do keep a look out but the cockpit was full and I did get complacent. That won’t happen again. Thing is, it wasn’t like there was a ton of boat traffic either. And I felt confident in the Captain. There was one other guy next to the helm (a fellow boater) and he didn’t sound an alarm. " .  I had assumed that meant the captain was in the cockpit at the forward helm, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I've read the article, but not quite sure what to make of it. The guy doesn't seem sure of anything in his recollection until after the accident when he starts assessing the situation and helping everyone with life jackets. Funny how no one immediately went to check on the people in the sailboat after the accident. I don't blame the guy though, he's out on a relaxing fishing trip, its not his job to be alert and watching out for other boats. He was probably just sitting on the settee day dreaming and enjoying his time out on the water. Too bad the captain was doing the same thing. With 7 people on board, the investigators should be able to get a clear picture of where everyone was and what everyone was doing in the moments leading up to the impact.

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22 minutes ago, USA 5184 said:

I've read the article, but not quite sure what to make of it. The guy doesn't seem sure of anything in his recollection until after the accident when he starts assessing the situation and helping everyone with life jackets. Funny how no one immediately went to check on the people in the sailboat after the accident. I don't blame the guy though, he's out on a relaxing fishing trip, its not his job to be alert and watching out for other boats. He was probably just sitting on the settee day dreaming and enjoying his time out on the water. Too bad the captain was doing the same thing. With 7 people on board, the investigators should be able to get a clear picture of where everyone was and what everyone was doing in the moments leading up to the impact.

I was on a fishing charter on the Chesapeake in June. We took our limit in rockfish (striped bass).  As a sailor/boat/person who enjoys being on the water, I stood in the wheelhouse with the skipper for a period of time, just watching him operate the boat.

My impression is that the skippers of these boats don't really appreciate their guests hovering over them or constantly offering "Hey, see that boat over there?" statements. I left him alone and sat out in the fishing area. Yes, I could be an extra set of eyes if I wanted to but I am a paying client, I'm there to fish and relax and you're right- I shouldn't have to play backup to the skipper and mate. 

When I'm on a commercial airline flight, I don't stare out the window and constantly page the flight attendants to relay my concerns and opinions to the pilot. I quietly sit in the back of the bus and expect them to do their jobs properly.

I hate to say it, but this latest news article that @Morgan Crewed has linked really makes me feel that the sailboat squandered an opportunity to get out of the way. It sounds like he had plenty of warning and clung to his "stand on" status to the bitter end.  As the article says, the CG will make the final determination.

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16 minutes ago, smokeandoakum said:

Here's the story behind this video:  Wipe Out!

Thought was going through my head when I saw that -- "I wonder if that's Lake of the Ozarks?".  Things are pretty nutty down there. . .

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

I was on a fishing charter on the Chesapeake in June. We took our limit in rockfish (striped bass).  As a sailor/boat/person who enjoys being on the water, I stood in the wheelhouse with the skipper for a period of time, just watching him operate the boat.

My impression is that the skippers of these boats don't really appreciate their guests hovering over them or constantly offering "Hey, see that boat over there?" statements. I left him alone and sat out in the fishing area. Yes, I could be an extra set of eyes if I wanted to but I am a paying client, I'm there to fish and relax and you're right- I shouldn't have to play backup to the skipper and mate. 

When I'm on a commercial airline flight, I don't stare out the window and constantly page the flight attendants to relay my concerns and opinions to the pilot. I quietly sit in the back of the bus and expect them to do their jobs properly.

I hate to say it, but this latest news article that @Morgan Crewed has linked really makes me feel that the sailboat squandered an opportunity to get out of the way. It sounds like he had plenty of warning and clung to his "stand on" status to the bitter end.  As the article says, the CG will make the final determination.

The sailboat did exactly the correct thing for the most part. Around Annapolis you will have powerboats coming at you constantly. 99.9% of the time they change course before they get to you. If you - the stand on vessel - start changing course you have at least 50% odds of turning into their path. When I run a fast powerboat I assume the sailboats around will keep doing what they are doing and I avoid them. At 30 knots closing speed the time gap between no problem and already run over is not big. I would have had my eyes glues on that guy and been ready to turn had it been me, but in light air you just might not be able to turn fast enough.

* not even getting into ICW type situations where fast traffic is constantly running right up your stern. I also have had big powerboats pass me very close aboard and turn right across my bow. It works - I can cut in right behind them and go over ONE wake instead of rolling in a bunch of them, but it sure makes me nervous :unsure:

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9 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

At 30 knots closing speed the time gap between no problem and already run over is not big.

I know, I know.  The stand on vessel has an obligation to... stand on and be predictable. This is to avoid confusing the give way vessel. 

As you say, at 30 kts it's a fine line between "Oh shit, I should move!" and "Too late!"  It'll be educational for me to hear the outcome of the investigation.

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21 hours ago, Ajax said:

There are like, 290 version of that posted on Youtube and you had to post the fuzziest, most cloned version of all of them. :)

 

looks perfectly clear to me 'ol man..:D

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28 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I know, I know.  The stand on vessel has an obligation to... stand on and be predictable. This is to avoid confusing the give way vessel. 

As you say, at 30 kts it's a fine line between "Oh shit, I should move!" and "Too late!"  It'll be educational for me to hear the outcome of the investigation.

THREAD CREEP: This is why I am loving my AIS when dealing with commercial shipping. I have twice now been southbound and not wanted to cross ahead of a southbound freighter right near the Bay Bridge and seen there speed steadily dropping putting them right on me again. I called them - easy to do when I can see their name on the screen - and they were slowing down to give me more room.

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

The sailboat did exactly the correct thing for the most part. Around Annapolis you will have powerboats coming at you constantly. 99.9% of the time they change course before they get to you. If you - the stand on vessel - start changing course you have at least 50% odds of turning into their path. When I run a fast powerboat I assume the sailboats around will keep doing what they are doing and I avoid them. At 30 knots closing speed the time gap between no problem and already run over is not big. I would have had my eyes glues on that guy and been ready to turn had it been me, but in light air you just might not be able to turn fast enough.

* not even getting into ICW type situations where fast traffic is constantly running right up your stern. I also have had big powerboats pass me very close aboard and turn right across my bow. It works - I can cut in right behind them and go over ONE wake instead of rolling in a bunch of them, but it sure makes me nervous :unsure:

This.

At 30kt ramming speed there is really nothing you can do to evade: you are at their mercy.  Holding your course makes you predictable so that the power boater can flick his wheel and give you within one boatlength a nice wake to surf.  If you start turning tacking or jibing for the next 15 seconds you become a moving target and can confuse the driver.

 

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Rule 17 has much wisdom, though I doubt any of it would have given sailboat a chance to change the outcome given the disparity in speeds, and lookouts:

Rule 17- Action by Stand-on Vessel Return to the top of the page (a)(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.

(ii) The latter vessel may, however, take action to avoid collision by her maneuver alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.

(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with Rule 17(a)(ii) to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.

(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way.

 

It gives three phases for the stand-on sailboat

--the "hold your course" zone, when give-way speedster has plenty of time and room, and alteration by stand-on would only serve to fake out the give-way;

--the "may alter" if you see speedster ain't doing the necessary, but you don't have to---yet;

--and, the "OMG" zone, when speedster is clueless and it's almost too close to call, gotta do something (and the Rule now tells you to do it), but what??

 

30 knots versus 4 makes the distinction between may-alter and OMG pretty much meaningless in most situations, including this one.

 

Just my view

 

 

 

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I think we're all in agreement here. I'm just waiting to hear what the CG decides.

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15 hours ago, Morgan Crewed said:

Meanwhile:

http://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/sailing_boating/ac-cn-boat-collision-survivor-0827-story.html

Andorsky and a friend were on the sailboat, named the Levitation, while seven people were on the commercial charter powerboat, called The Hunter. No one was injured, according to the Coast Guard, which is still investigating the accident. 

Chet Clough, owner of Chesapeake Bay Charter Services, said he won’t comment on the crash during the investigation.  “The Coast Guard will make the determination on who’s at fault,” he said. 

Andorsky, meanwhile, insists he isn’t to blame.  Conditions were clear on Aug. 17 when he and his friend took out a J/105 sailboat that belongs to the Chesapeake Boating Club in Eastport, where Andorsky is a member. 

He said he saw the power boat “way off in the distance” and knew they were probably on a collision course. Motorboats typically give way to a sailboat, so Andorsky said he stayed his course.  And then it was too late.  “I’m waving at the guy, yelling, and all of a sudden, his boat was sitting on top of our boat,” Andorsky said. 

Andorsky was sitting in the back of the sailboat by the wheel and his friend was a couple feet in front of him on the port side. He said he believes he and his friend would have been killed if the powerboat struck much closer to the stern of his sailboat. And if the sailboat hadn’t been heeling to starboard, the powerboat could have broken it in half, he said.

According to my BIL the boat is on the hard in a marina off the Chester River.

Levitation.jpg

The repairs gives them a good excuse to clean the bottom of the boat!

- Stumbling

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I bet the boat will be repaired, 10+ years ago I was working at the Marina where the J/105 Hilaria was taken to after they recovered it. It was cut in half after being run over by a yacht and went straight to the bottom. It sat in the yard for a few years blocked up with the recovered remnants of the bow laying on the ground below it. I always wondered when they'd crush it and throw it in a dumpster, but one day a moving company came and took the boat. Does anyone know what happened to her? I heard it was going to be repaired which I thought was surprising but if that boat could be saved, then this one can definitely be repaired by the right person.

https://www.sailingworld.com/racing/sailor-dies-after-j-105-sinks-due-collision  

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41 minutes ago, Thistle3868 said:

Any questions.....

So if I am anchored and you hit me, it is my fault?

Drifting at 0.5 knots and run over by a powerboat going 60 knots? With a drunk cop at the wheel?

 

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If I'm not mistaken an anchored vessel or a sailing vessel doing half a know would be the stand on vessel, no?

Edit.  Ahhh....I see.  I think we are getting confusion for RRS vs. Colregs.

Colregs has Give Way and Stand on.  In this case, it's clearly saying that there is no freedom of obligation to the give way boat to keep clear.  I think we are in violent agreement.

The muppets keep grasping at rule 17 to absolve the powerboat b/c the sailboat didn't avoid the collision.  17.d clearly states that's not the case.

 

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1 hour ago, stumblingthunder said:

The repairs gives them a good excuse to clean the bottom of the boat!

- Stumbling

They got hit on the Starboard side. Any yard photos of that??

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3 hours ago, stayoutofthemiddle said:

They got hit on the Starboard side. Any yard photos of that??

See posts 18 and 19.

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On August 28, 2018 at 10:07 PM, Morgan Crewed said:

Meanwhile:

http://www.capitalgazette.com/sports/sailing_boating/ac-cn-boat-collision-survivor-0827-story.html

Andorsky and a friend were on the sailboat, named the Levitation, while seven people were on the commercial charter powerboat, called The Hunter. No one was injured, according to the Coast Guard, which is still investigating the accident. 

Chet Clough, owner of Chesapeake Bay Charter Services, said he won’t comment on the crash during the investigation.  “The Coast Guard will make the determination on who’s at fault,” he said. 

Andorsky, meanwhile, insists he isn’t to blame.  Conditions were clear on Aug. 17 when he and his friend took out a J/105 sailboat that belongs to the Chesapeake Boating Club in Eastport, where Andorsky is a member. 

He said he saw the power boat “way off in the distance” and knew they were probably on a collision course. Motorboats typically give way to a sailboat, so Andorsky said he stayed his course.  And then it was too late.  “I’m waving at the guy, yelling, and all of a sudden, his boat was sitting on top of our boat,” Andorsky said. 

Andorsky was sitting in the back of the sailboat by the wheel and his friend was a couple feet in front of him on the port side. He said he believes he and his friend would have been killed if the powerboat struck much closer to the stern of his sailboat. And if the sailboat hadn’t been heeling to starboard, the powerboat could have broken it in half, he said.

According to my BIL the boat is on the hard in a marina off the Chester River.

Levitation.jpg

She is in a marina in Annapolis next to the Maritime Museum.

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17 hours ago, Thistle3868 said:

If I'm not mistaken an anchored vessel or a sailing vessel doing half a know would be the stand on vessel, no?

Edit.  Ahhh....I see.  I think we are getting confusion for RRS vs. Colregs.

Colregs has Give Way and Stand on.  In this case, it's clearly saying that there is no freedom of obligation to the give way boat to keep clear.  I think we are in violent agreement.

The muppets keep grasping at rule 17 to absolve the powerboat b/c the sailboat didn't avoid the collision.  17.d clearly states that's not the case.

 

I think we are on the same page here.

A general note - you have right of way when sailing over the big massive 4 story motor yacht coming into the harbor for sure no doubt. I have delivered a few of those things and off-plane you have shallow draft, a ton of windage (probably equivalent to a fairly big genoa), and rudders about the size of place mats. I was amazed at how bad they were to handle at 6 knots, so be a little wary of them in close quarters. Coming up to a dock with a crosswind I swear I was doing 3 knots sideways :o

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29 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

A general note - you have right of way when sailing over the big massive 4 story motor yacht coming into the harbor for sure no doubt. I have delivered a few of those things and off-plane you have shallow draft, a ton of windage (probably equivalent to a fairly big genoa), and rudders about the size of place mats. I was amazed at how bad they were to handle at 6 knots, so be a little wary of them in close quarters. Coming up to a dock with a crosswind I swear I was doing 3 knots sideways :o

Safety note: stay to weather of dock condos.

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On 8/30/2018 at 2:20 AM, Thistle3868 said:

Safety note: stay to weather of dock condos.

ColReg 2(b) — In construing and complying with these rules, due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision, and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from the above rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

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I was out in my 11’ Sailing dinghy yesterday within 200’ of the south shore of the Toms River yesterday when a 36’ powerboat missed me by about 2’ at 30+ knots. I saw him coming from a half mile out and had myself on the transom by the time they were 10 seconds out. They took a slight right 3 seconds before hitting me and I was in launch mode with the main sheet holding my balance and as the boat passed, the 2 idiots aboard were in total shock to see me 10’ away. The wake threw me back into the boat as the bow shot up over the whitewater and I was barely able to get back up in time to flip them off  as they waved to me. He took the crab trap  I was going to tack around in 20’ with him.

I’d love to find them and get my payback. Maybe I’d drop a car battery off of their transom at the dock. It would eat the outdrive and erase their drivetrain in a couple of hours. Then I could recycle the battery and feel good about that.

I really hate most power boaters in general.

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38 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I was out in my 11’ Sailing dinghy yesterday within 200’ of the south shore of the Toms River yesterday when a 36’ powerboat missed me by about 2’ at 30+ knots. I saw him coming from a half mile out and had myself on the transom by the time they were 10 seconds out. They took a slight right 3 seconds before hitting me and I was in launch mode with the main sheet holding my balance and as the boat passed, the 2 idiots aboard were in total shock to see me 10’ away. The wake threw me back into the boat as the bow shot up over the whitewater and I was barely able to get back up in time to flip them off  as they waved to me. He took the crab trap  I was going to tack around in 20’ with him.

I’d love to find them and get my payback. Maybe I’d drop a car battery off of their transom at the dock. It would eat the outdrive and erase their drivetrain in a couple of hours. Then I could recycle the battery and feel good about that.

I really hate most power boaters in general.

Well try being one. When I got a ski boat I was amazed to discover how much worse they are to *other power boats*. Sure they hate giving way to sailboats, but at least they are dimly aware that they should. There is no way in hell a big belch-soot 60 is ever going to give way to a small powerboat for any reason - ever :angry:

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By power boat I mean over 30’ and oblivious to everything- not motor boats. Motor boats also don’t generally roll through a start finish line either. 

Maybe it’s because they are too vulnerable to getting pegged with a beer bottle

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