Student_Driver

GB5508 Rebuild - Soma's Project

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Soma,

Thanks for sharing with us. Very interesting to read about the engineering and other considerations which go into doing the rebuild.

Am guessing that I'd not be the only one interested in hearing more and seeing more illustrations and photos if/when you can share.

One question. You mention that 5702 is Vandal which is in the pacific. Then you mention 5508/5702. Should that be 5508/5703?

Michael

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Proa,

Here are the two quotes which seem to be in conflict. 5702=Vandal but the project boat is also referred to as 5702. Methinks that 5508 can't be Vandal which is 'cruising in Tahiti'

Gunboat 57” (Gunboat 5701 is “VaiVai” as featured here on the FP back in 2016. Gunboat 5702 is “Vandal” which underwent a thorough refit here at Newport Shipyard and is now cruising in Tahiti)

 I quit Gunboat to oversee completion of 5508/5702 

 

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I took it to mean Soma took on project management of Vandal (5702) and then 5508 which is now Man-O-War 57. I could be wrong and it does read a little oddly.

Looks like a fun project!

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The wording isn't very clear but my understanding is the same as @guysmiley's.  Great story, thanks @soma.  Sounds like a turbo 55!  (57?)

Quote

Our first step (once the boat was hauled at Newport Shipyard) was to get her leveled and on scales so there wouldn’t be any surprises later. The original Gunboat 55 was designed to be 9.5 tons but ended up nearly 50% overweight (+/- 14 tons!) and about 4 degrees stern down.
[...]
Once all the cutting was done we were sitting at about 4.5 tons. We are hoping to get close to the original design weight of 9.5 tons. We won’t get there, but in the immortal words of Captain Ron, “It’s important to have goals. I learned that in rehab”.

 

For comparison, this is Vandal (5502):

https://www.vandal.blog/the-boat/

https://www.gunboat.com/5502-vandal-jumping-joy/

 

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3 hours ago, Student_Driver said:

One question. You mention that 5702 is Vandal which is in the pacific. Then you mention 5508/5702. Should that be 5508/5703?

1

 

The short answer is, yes, it should have read 5508/5703.

VaiVai is 5505/5701.

Vandal is 5502/5702.

VaiVai and Vandal "graduated" to 57 status after extensive mods. Both are great boats. The owners of Vandal are living the dream cruising the Pacific and I couldn't be happier for them.

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There are some pics in the article that Scot didn't include (presumably due to space limitations). Here you can see the outboard L version vs the canted-in T version. It's pretty clear how much further outboard the center of lift is on the canted-in version. Righting moment without weight is a huge win. The upturned T is meant to get the windward foil out of the water sooner. 

1535034076063blob.jpg

1535034085614blob.jpg

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Here are some other shots of the project. You can see how corked she was when she arrived after we ripped out the furniture. You can also see how much of the ass end we ripped out. IMG_0073.thumb.jpg.78face0a2ccac388899f64a653dfef7f.jpgIMG_0057.thumb.jpg.708c72b942df963f8924f307473c8041.jpgIMG_0016.thumb.jpg.466719db35e264688359b4be6e55e4c2.jpgIMG_0104.thumb.jpg.b7139b32c37fedb3744dc59ff66e388e.jpg

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How is the new furniture going to be so much lighter than the old?  Stearns are just sugar scoops with no aft stairs?  No cabin soles?

 

Boat looks awesome.  Did you patent the foils?

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Was there any weight saving in the switch from diesel to Mastervolt?

is there a genset to maintain range?

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11 hours ago, eastern motors said:

How is the new furniture going to be so much lighter than the old? 

 

First of all, there will be a lot less of it. On the production boats they try to avoid painted surfaces so everything has a secondary (and tertiary) surface. It's wood everywhere. We found areas that had 5-6 pieces of plywood sandwiched together (drawer slide mount, cabinet sidewall, cabinet divider, cabinet sidewall, drawer slide mount). We're going for paint or SeaDek on the hull surface itself. The furniture that we WILL have will be foam/carbon that's painted clear or white. We won't have any drawers and sliders, we'll have cubby holes instead.  There's a reason the early SA Gunboats were so light. We are going back to that aesthetic.   

11 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Stearns are just sugar scoops with no aft stairs? 

1

The stern steps have been rebuilt. Again, production builders hate fairing/painting boats (it's expensive) so everything has to be "A" side. That means a lot of secondary cored panel surfaces along for the ride. We ditched the cockpit and aft step coaming and saved about 200kgs, while making the aft steps wider and more ergonomic. Kind of a no-brainer. The infused hatch recesses were all resin, so brittle and fussy. We cut those out altogether.  

11 hours ago, eastern motors said:

No cabin soles?

The existing soles had to come out to cut out the centerboard trunks. The plan was to put them back in, but the hull/floor connection was shit, and the floor had about 1/2" of fairing on it. We cut almost all of the floors out, put in floor stringers, and will have loose floorboards. I've always wanted a cat with loose floorboards. Below-sole system access will be great, and the floorboards can be faired and painted off the boat, so easy to fair light and paint well.

11 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Boat looks awesome.  Did you patent the foils?

No. It was Dirk's idea, and I think he's pretty used to putting great ideas out into the world.

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3 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Cost?

The hull was purchased for pennies on the dollar. The cost to finish will be in line with the original purchase price, but only because this buyer got the hull for so cheap. The Gunboat 55 should have retailed for $3.5M+ if it was priced appropriately. Instead, it was introduced at $1.6m. Doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that it wasn't a viable business model. When you are losing $2m/boat, and you sell 15 boats, debt racks up quick. Volume doesn't help.

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32 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Was there any weight saving in the switch from diesel to Mastervolt?

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Oceanvolt...and actually, yes, there was a weight savings. The bigger benefit, though, was weight distribution. The engines aft were a big contributor to the stern down trim. The OV SD15 is under the escape hatch, amidship. The battery bank is also amidship. You can see in the attached shot that we canted the sail drive like on the old Gunboat 62. Access to the prop is easy if you foul it, it's above the lowest surface of the boat (board tip and t-rudder), and it's out of the daggerboard wash for clean flow.

  image.png.535af95bb94c10ab8c6b70d3e4136794.png

Quote

is there a genset to maintain range?

Yes, two relatively small (6kw) Fischer Pandas fwd of the shower.

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5 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

Are you building in more or less disruption ?

Ha. No cops or lawyers have come by yet if that's what you mean.

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11 minutes ago, soma said:

 The Gunboat 55 should have retailed for $3.5M+ if it was priced appropriately. Instead, it was introduced at $1.6m. Doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that it wasn't a viable business model. When you are losing $2m/boat, and you sell 15 boats, debt racks up quick. Volume doesn't help.

There's an old Wall Street joke about banks trying to break into the big leagues by cutting prices....

'we loose money on every trade but we make it up in volume' 

 

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Here are a couple of additional shots. The first shows our aft coachroof support, the aftmost stanchion, and the demountable wind gen pole.

-The coachroof supports originally weren't part of the design. The first seatrials on Rainmaker revealed that the coachroof bounced like a diving board, and one of the coachroof windows ended up shattering. They added round tubes to serve as supports. We upgraded to box beams so we'd have a surface to mount the clear vinyl enclosure to. 

-The aftmost stanchion is there so the helmsman and tactician can sit on the coaming/sidedeck without falling over the side. Normally the lifeline terminated on a padeye on deck. 

-The wind gen pole will have a Silentwind on it, both sterns. It's easily demounted for racing, or if we decide we don't need the power.

Both the stanchion and the wind gen mount are recycled curved spreaders from Bella Mente that we got for free (almost). I thought the curved look was cool. I'd been meaning to use them somewhere, on some project, ever since I saw them. 

IMG_0136.thumb.jpg.fc7bc7ce4961c3b83fb454128f989346.jpg

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Here you can see the rebuilt aft steps as well as the cockpit coaming. We left a downturning surface, sorta like a TP52/mini Maxi aft deck. You can also see how much wider the aft deck is (almost 2' overall). The removable panel is for steering system access. The tiller will come out of the trapezoid shaped panel on the top step. We also ditched the entire inboard sugar scoop. It was heavy and will help boarding from the dinghy. 

 

 IMG_0137.thumb.jpg.50621d7e1cd6f71d5df9ad461a147f83.jpg

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Hey there, Soma, this does indeed seem like a very intriguing evolution of the boat.  My best wishes on the project.  I’m surprised that many of those astute changes weren’t designed straight into the original concept.

 

I’m curious, though, about a few things.

 

First, you mention that this will be a “cafe racer version of the 55, dispensing with all of the irrelevancies”.  Does this mean that features that would be desirable for cruising for more than just a weekend will be absent?  Features such as fridge(s), freezer(s), water-makers, fuel storage capacity (for both the stove and the generators), water-storage capacity, septic, and comfortable places to sit/lounge?  But surely you’re going to keep the ice-maker, though; because no-doubt it will be needed post-race for celebratory drinks ;).

 

Second, you mention: “The infused hatch recesses were all resin, so brittle and fussy. We cut those out altogether”. What have you done instead for the hatch recesses?  Or alternatively did you mean that there are now no hatches?  If the latter, then what are your thoughts on brightness and air circulation in the hulls?  As an extension of this latter point, it strikes me that the cubbies will be great for decreasing the chance for mildew to form -- but this particular great improvement may be negated if there is not enough air circulation in the hull. <my apologies if I’m just thinking things through too much; it’s a bad habit of mine :)>.

 

Finally, you mention: “will have loose floorboards”.  Excuse me for cringing, but won’t this result in a very noisy boat during passages?  Or is that not really a consideration in the design brief for this particular cafe racer”?  Perhaps the race-crew will be too busy to even attempt the ‘luxuries’ of sleeping or staying sane?

 

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7 hours ago, soma said:

The hull was purchased for pennies on the dollar. The cost to finish will be in line with the original purchase price, but only because this buyer got the hull for so cheap. The Gunboat 55 should have retailed for $3.5M+ if it was priced appropriately. Instead, it was introduced at $1.6m. Doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that it wasn't a viable business model. When you are losing $2m/boat, and you sell 15 boats, debt racks up quick. Volume doesn't help.

So the original owner of that hull deceided to get a few $’s and walk away? Did he buy another boat?

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1 hour ago, SCANAS said:

So the original owner of that hull deceided to get a few $’s and walk away? Did he buy another boat?

Very nice couple. There were a lot of great folks who got burned. They had a funny line when I saw them at the Newport Boatshow a few years ago. They said, "we thought we were going to get a Gunboat. Instead, we got a Done-boat" (i.e. a boat that's already floating). They got a nice monohull. 

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21 minutes ago, soma said:

Very nice couple. There were a lot of great folks who got burned. They had a funny line when I saw them at the Newport Boatshow a few years ago. They said, "we thought we were going to get a Gunboat. Instead, we got a Done-boat" (i.e. a boat that's already floating). They got a nice monohull. 

Glad to hear they still got a boat. 

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Hey Soma,

Does the aft face of the cockpit/aft beam just sort of terminate into the side of the hull? I'm sure if Dirk was involved he would have some sort of load path for it.

When you run aground with the lovely T-daggerboards, how much to ship a new set to Moorea?  :)

Seriously that wood furniture sounds awful. Who would put plywood into a fast carbon boat.

Nothing wrong with loose floor boards. Why would they squeak - the hull won't be flexing appreciably being carbon.

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40 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Does the aft face of the cockpit/aft beam just sort of terminate into the side of the hull? I'm sure if Dirk was involved he would have some sort of load path for it.

This may sound naive and is certainly tangential thread drift but...  Yeah, how does that aft crossbeam work?  (structurally)

Same question for the GB 68 and other big cats that appear to avoid the deck-level bulkhead on the aft beam, so commonly found at the forward beam connection?

What I need for a big proa is two aft crossbeams like this...  I have sketches but would love to see how it's done on a GB?

IMG_0137.jpg

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The aft bulkhead is in plane with the transom. There is a bunch of uni (pink and blue) and some biax (green). It is pretty cool how open the boat is, especially without the cabin back bulkhead.

 

I can tell you from leveling the boat that it is a stiff platform. We'd jack one corner and 3 corners would lift. 

 

The T's are demountable, Zonker. Hopefully the rest of the board would survive. We started with the idea we'd rake the whole board fore-aft to change AOA of the T. It was a bit tricky, so now we plan to have the T AOA adjustable via a pivot pin/push rod. 9 tons of lift is a sizable chunk of load. Keeping the loads aligned took some thinking (on Dirk's part. I just nod knowingly in an attempt to make it seem like I understand what he's saying). 

IMG_4069.JPG

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Soma

what type of mechanism/power will push the boards down and hold them down?

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Money will be piled on top until it pushes the boards down. Impact will push them back up.

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11 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

What four carbon cutters?

I think you forgot your sarcasm font...

In case you didn´t: 

 

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39 minutes ago, sail(plane) said:

I think you forgot your sarcasm font...

In case you didn´t: 

 

Oh, I thought that maybe you meant that there were three unfinished boats awaiting new owners to complete like at Gunboat. First one looked great but things have gone very quiet since its launch. Shouldn't things go faster with repetition?

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1 minute ago, Rasputin22 said:

Oh, I thought that maybe you meant that there were three unfinished boats awaiting new owners to complete like at Gunboat. First one looked great but things have gone very quiet since its launch. Shouldn't things go faster with repetition?

FWIW, there are 2 more unfinished hulls in NC. One is trash, but the other is in a great state of completion for completing. The tooling is also still down there.

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

Oh, I thought that maybe you meant that there were three unfinished boats awaiting new owners to complete like at Gunboat. First one looked great but things have gone very quiet since its launch. Shouldn't things go faster with repetition?

I meant that this thread is as interesting as the inside view of the Four Carbon Cutters. The photos, the trade-offs, the explanations

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8 hours ago, soma said:

FWIW, there are 2 more unfinished hulls in NC. One is trash, but the other is in a great state of completion for completing. The tooling is also still down there.

Just curious, but why is one trash?

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On 8/31/2018 at 6:15 PM, Monkey said:

Just curious, but why is one trash?

Long story short, they laid up the dry stack (carbon/foam/carbon) for 5514 in the tooling, but couldn't infuse because the resin that they had left was expired and they couldn't afford more. So they left the drystack in the tooling for weeks/months, uncovered. Then, apparently, some disgruntled employee took his rage out on the drystack and ripped it all down. They put it back up in place the best they could. Then, apparently PJ was getting really short on cash, so he instructed the workers to infuse the hull with expired resin, presumably to trigger a progress payment. 

I've heard this story from enough people that I accept it as true. To put it another way, we felt that this information was "true" enough that I wouldn't sell it when I worked at Gunboat.

To clarify, the hull in question is 5514. There is no 5511, 5512, or 5513. I guess the buyers of 11 and 12 knew it'd be cheaper to walk away from their deposit than to move ahead, so those projects never began. Presumably, you skip hull 13 because it's 13. 

5514 was the last boat infused. Last I saw it was still in the tooling.

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On 8/31/2018 at 12:52 AM, Sailabout said:

Soma

what type of mechanism/power will push the boards down and hold them down?

On 8/31/2018 at 3:39 AM, bigmarv said:

Money will be piled on top until it pushes the boards down. Impact will push them back up.

That's a good one.

Actually, our current thinking is to use a WARN winch. One of the clever innovations to come out of NC is the use of a Warn Winch for the dinghy davit (1000lb). We used to put little Lewmar winches on the back deck. The 60's put on Lewmar Captive Reel winches. Heavy and $$$ but they worked. My guess is the boys in NC said, "screw that, I can pick up a dingy with a $500 winch from Autozone". They've been totally reliable so far. Warn make units that use dyneema and are rated to 16,000 lbs

https://www.amazon.com/Warn-97740-16-5ti-s-Winch-Synthetic/dp/B01N3M2JN0.

At 2:1 we should be ok. The whole system is laid out so you can bypass the Warn if (when) it shits the bed and take it to a winch. We spec'd a custom Harken captive reel winch but it cost about a year's salary (each) so we rethought our solution. We looked into hydraulic, but that was going to be tough. 

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On 8/30/2018 at 4:31 PM, J the landlocked dreamer said:

First, you mention that this will be a “cafe racer version of the 55, dispensing with all of the irrelevancies”.  Does this mean that features that would be desirable for cruising for more than just a weekend will be absent?  Features such as fridge(s), freezer(s), water-makers, fuel storage capacity (for both the stove and the generators), water-storage capacity, septic, and comfortable places to sit/lounge?  But surely you’re going to keep the ice-maker, though; because no-doubt it will be needed post-race for celebratory drinks ;)

 

 

We will have 3 fridge drawers, one freezer drawer, icemaker, drinks fridge, watermaker, plenty of fuel, electric induction cooktop and Bosch combo microwave/convection oven, ceramic toilets, holding tanks, and the usual seating on the 55's. 

On 8/30/2018 at 4:31 PM, J the landlocked dreamer said:

Second, you mention: “The infused hatch recesses were all resin, so brittle and fussy. We cut those out altogether”. What have you done instead for the hatch recesses?  Or alternatively did you mean that there are now no hatches?  If the latter, then what are your thoughts on brightness and air circulation in the hulls?  As an extension of this latter point, it strikes me that the cubbies will be great for decreasing the chance for mildew to form -- but this particular great improvement may be negated if there is not enough air circulation in the hull. <my apologies if I’m just thinking things through too much; it’s a bad habit of mine :)>.

1

It's only the custom hatches that we eliminated. We replaced them with flush Lewmar hatches. The cabin hatches and portlights will be as normal. We are planning to use electrotint window film in the hull topside windows, though. Cheaper and lighter and more effective than blinds. 

On 8/30/2018 at 4:31 PM, J the landlocked dreamer said:

 

Finally, you mention: “will have loose floorboards”.  Excuse me for cringing, but won’t this result in a very noisy boat during passages?  Or is that not really a consideration in the design brief for this particular cafe racer”?  Perhaps the race-crew will be too busy to even attempt the ‘luxuries’ of sleeping or staying sane?

 

The boat is pretty damned stiff. I'm not worried. From leveling her up we found that when one corner lifted 2 other corners lifted. 

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Thanks Soma, so do the boards float up or can you rig that WARN winch to pull the board up under load as well as push down? Have you ever seen the SIG 45 system of using ANTAL line drivers on an endless system to do the same thing? Harken has line drivers similar to the ANTAL and I've been considering using them but way pricier than the WARN system. I'm going to the Newport Show to hopefully see the Rope Eye constrictors that I have been bugging the guy in Estonia about but can't seem to get a straight answer from him. Neither can Harken. Maybe you saw his answer to me on his Facebook page on the subject, 'Hot out of the oven!' He has been saying that a year now...

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I've seen the ANTAL line drivers used for board up/down aboard the HH66's I was involved with. They're great, but in our application they're too low load (1500kg?). We'd need to go 6:1, and it'd have to be 6:1 up AND down  

The Harken are even smaller (300kg?). 

Dirk and the guys came up with a very clever way to use the Warn for up and down. 

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Soma 

   Yeah, when I spoke with Harken yesterday, they mentioned that they now have a larger capacity line driver but I bet you could buy both the WARNs for the price of one Harken. Hope I can buy you a beer in Newport during the show. I'm bringing my client for a 50 cat and having him fill out his wish list on hardware for his next boat. Also going to visit our sparmaker while in town. I'll send you a PM.

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excellent thread. Thanks Soma.

Only comment I have is The open transom thing is dangerous.

It needs a door or step at least. A wave hitting someone at 20kn can punch them straight out the back.

Keep us updated about the warn system, very interesting.

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14 minutes ago, bushsailor said:

Only comment I have is The open transom thing is dangerous.

It needs a door or step at least. A wave hitting someone at 20kn can punch them straight out the back.

Fair point. I've put washboards on 2 of the 55's already. We haven't committed to them yet on this project yet, though. One reason is we should be sitting about 8" higher aft. Another reason we don't have washboards is we don't have engine rooms in back like the other boats. We still have the central, inside helm, so if things get sporty you can retreat to the wheel. But we may add washboards yet. 

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On 9/9/2018 at 8:33 AM, soma said:

Fair point. I've put washboards on 2 of the 55's already. We haven't committed to them yet on this project yet, though. One reason is we should be sitting about 8" higher aft. Another reason we don't have washboards is we don't have engine rooms in back like the other boats. We still have the central, inside helm, so if things get sporty you can retreat to the wheel. But we may add washboards yet. 

A couple of removable nets for those days would work

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I think that those Warn winches will last about 2 years in tropics before the powercoat flakes off and it starts rusting (steel) or corroding (aluminum casting?)

The IP 68 rating is better than any windlass however. Hope I'm wrong.

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I think you’re underestimating the Warn’s. They have been known to provide 20yrs service bolted to the front of cars & trucks that live on the beach ( not coastal, driving on the beach everyday ) or worse, in coal mines. 

Carry some spare solenoids, make sure the drain location is facing down & repack it with marine grease. 

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

I think that those Warn winches will last about 2 years in tropics before the powercoat flakes off and it starts rusting (steel) or corroding (aluminum casting?)

The IP 68 rating is better than any windlass however. Hope I'm wrong.

thats why hydraulics get used, the cylinder can deal with a harsh environment in air or underwater and easy to custom design and make

Nice if we could do that with linear electric actuators easily...

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As the owner's buddy said, for the price difference between the Warn and the Harken, you can just buy a wheelbarrow full of the Warns and still have money left over.

 

We will be mounting the Warns below deck, upside down and inboard, so they should be safe and out of harm's way.

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

thats why hydraulics get used, the cylinder can deal with a harsh environment in air or underwater and easy to custom design and make

Nice if we could do that with linear electric actuators easily...

We tried to make hydraulics work. The difficulty was the 2.3m stroke and 9 tons pull, 2 tons push. At 1:1 it was a 5+m ram, so the buckling load was significant. At 1:2 our ram length got shorter, but 18 tons of load got tricky and we were still left with a 2.5m ram (which was hard to hide inside the boat). 3:1 and 4:1 got crazy with loads. Magic Trim etc couldn't get us there. One feature I really liked was to use the board's lift as recycled energy, ie like a canting mast. You could drive one board down with the lift from the other side. That way you could avoid HUGE power packs and the needed ampacity. In the end, though, there was a simplicity to a big electric winch that was hard to ignore. $2000 from Amazon Prime is nice, too.

I'm not convinced that this is the winning solution, this may be an area we revisit, but for now we have a plan.

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Ah - below decks and inside makes a lot of sense. Keep them out of the salt spray and they might last for a good long time (and if they do start rusting you won't see them!)

 Heck, I'd carry a spare winch if it wasn't so heavy. 104 lbs! Yikes.

Are you needing the high capacity load to drive the board up/down when loaded? That of course drives the loads up very high. The owners just want to push a button and the boards move, no matter what? 

On my 40' cat it was manual 2:1 - I lifted it up. Board was only about 100 lbs and buoyant so I just waited for the right moment as it unloaded off a wave and jerked it up a foot at a time. Not quite pushbutton sailing.

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Interesting question Zonker:  I wonder if it would make sense to have some spring / stored energy you could apply that would do a similar function.  Put it under tension to lift a foot or whatever and let the natural wave loading move it when its easy.

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37 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Are you needing the high capacity load to drive the board up/down when loaded? That of course drives the loads up very high. The owners just want to push a button and the boards move, no matter what? 

We will have AOA adjustment on the T foil, so the idea is to reduce lift before moving the board. The Warn brake is rated to the full pull load, so we should be able to rely on that brake to full lift. 

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10 hours ago, soma said:

We tried to make hydraulics work. The difficulty was the 2.3m stroke and 9 tons pull, 2 tons push. At 1:1 it was a 5+m ram, so the buckling load was significant. At 1:2 our ram length got shorter, but 18 tons of load got tricky and we were still left with a 2.5m ram (which was hard to hide inside the boat). 3:1 and 4:1 got crazy with loads. Magic Trim etc couldn't get us there. One feature I really liked was to use the board's lift as recycled energy, ie like a canting mast. You could drive one board down with the lift from the other side. That way you could avoid HUGE power packs and the needed ampacity. In the end, though, there was a simplicity to a big electric winch that was hard to ignore. $2000 from Amazon Prime is nice, too.

I'm not convinced that this is the winning solution, this may be an area we revisit, but for now we have a plan.

yes long rams get ugly from an engineering perspective

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5 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Interesting question Zonker:  I wonder if it would make sense to have some spring / stored energy you could apply that would do a similar function.  Put it under tension to lift a foot or whatever and let the natural wave loading move it when its easy.

I know of some people who load the board uphaul on a winch and tension them. They "pop" the board up in exactly that way when they unload on a wave.

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13 hours ago, soma said:

I'm not convinced that this is the winning solution, this may be an area we revisit, but for now we have "Plan A".

Fixed it for you.

Nice work Soma. Rational clear thinking, and looking outside the box. Interesting example of how looking at using non-marine or non yacht hardware is as good or better, and saves a "wheelbarrow" full of cash. The fact that the owner (who lets face it, will push that button whether that foil is loaded or unloaded......) is bought in...... makes this the best plan.

Fair winds to you all for the completion of this project. I still believe that the Irens hull lines for this era of Gunboats is/was some of the prettiest yet potent lines ever drawn. Supermodel meets racehorse vibe. (Just need to to pretty up that Longeron.......)

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9 hours ago, Boink said:

(Just need to to pretty up that Longeron.......)

1

Hmmmm...what don't you like? We are going in a totally different direction than the stock 55 with our longeron but I'm curious what your objection is. 

 

We are doing a well for the furler to get the solent tack right down to the "deck". It'll also be similar to the Lorima style longeron with a big triangular cross section. If you've seen the MC2-60 or Fujin you know what I'm talking about. See below. 

IMG_0009.jpg

IMG_8160.jpg

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21 hours ago, Zonker said:

Ah - below decks and inside makes a lot of sense. Keep them out of the salt spray and they might last for a good long time (and if they do start rusting you won't see them!)Heck, I'd carry a spare winch if it wasn't so heavy. 104 lbs! Yikes.

I've used similar winches in pretty nasty environments on a 4x4. Installing some sort of 'drip leg' (fairlead/pulley?) downhill of the winch and its attachment point on the board should help keep seawater off the winch some... especially if the line pivots under load, which would make a heck of a squeegee. Some means of freshwater rinse is probably worth adding to the maintenance checklist, though rinsing things inside the hull has its own complexities.

As for weight -- this winch is rate for 16.5k, and Warn is not known for skimping on ratings or safety factors. If you can feed the winch with sufficient power (fat cables), the failure modes are likely to be motor or contactors. The motor (https://www.amazon.com/Warn-68773-WARN-Winch-Motor/dp/B002DTYBWO is 16 pounds separate, and the miscellaneous electric bits will be even lighter. Pack a few spare bits and put a full spare winch in the sailbox on the trailer during sea trails. :p That'd be some trailer!

Randii

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11 hours ago, soma said:

Hmmmm...what don't you like? We are going in a totally different direction than the stock 55 with our longeron but I'm curious what your objection is. 

 

We are doing a well for the furler to get the solent tack right down to the "deck". It'll also be similar to the Lorima style longeron with a big triangular cross section. If you've seen the MC2-60 or Fujin you know what I'm talking about. See below. 

IMG_0009.jpg

IMG_8160.jpg

Soma, I recognise the substantial loads, and the need to structurally tame them, both vertically and horizontally.

There are many pretty sailboats out there with dodgy Rhinoplasty up front.

And yes your proposal is an improvement on earlier generations......I like the sound of the endplate - for peformance gains - will this be soild structure or a 3Di soultion? I hope (but think unlikely) that the furler drums can be sunk into the beam to truly clean up the airflow.

It's just the cantilevered section out front - just screams I-Beam/RSJ or precast at me, and somewhat an afterthought, or moment when the budget got reined in...... particuarly when viewed in context against those svelte hulls.

In fantasy boatyard world, I would go for slimmer section that is stayed 3 ways - I know this has knock ons for the anchor storage just behind the front beam - but for that I would have such a heavy item stowed further aft (nearer to overall COG - poking out the front face of the main beam/nacelle) and a Y-bridle system to bring its effective deployment back to the front beam. Save a bucket load of weight in that Longeron, add anchoring complexity (but hey, the amount of anchoring that these beauties do, is not extreme) but restore or regain some of those supermodel aesthetics.

Not trying to offend or stir anyone up. Will still follow this project with more than a liitle envy.

Fairwinds.

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Soma, looks good! You'll be wanting my new Grand Prix version of the Anomaly Headboard for that one. Saves 4+ lbs. 5 with the titanium block. 

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image.thumb.png.e9f7f5d90885fd6ace0bc23d86415b6b.png

The tramp track is now on port and starboard. By the end of next week we should be to final fairing/primer on the topsides and underbelly. Then we start on the deck and coachroof, but those should be quick. Most of the surfaces are SeaDek or solar. 

 

image.thumb.png.6fb63980a34155115472b6df73d79bc2.png

The trunks are now in port and starboard. This shows how we saved the door to the head, hatch, and topside window. The bed inboard should work out well.

 

image.thumb.png.645f3176193d64f89271e4aab694b80e.png

More board details. You can see the repaired centerboard trunk aft of the daggerboard trunk. 

 

 

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image.thumb.png.6f5575dfa03d472062738605f895f9a1.png

We did 22 digital versions of the forward cockpit trying to get it right. This is close to the final version.

 

image.thumb.png.0b1683b07abbff78ec0889809556824c.png

This is basically the final version.

image.thumb.png.d53a6b7a4c3548a3f987adb7478b493f.png

We built 3 versions in plywood/foam. The "classic" 55 cockpit left a little to be desired so I really wanted to get it right. On the Gunboat 68 we similarly built several mockups. In both cases, the effort was 100% worth the effort. 

image.thumb.png.1b39fa7872b10952281cef4d0011afe3.png

We decided to open up the line bin and push the windlass shelf all the way forward. 

 

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image.thumb.png.df555d7fa0fb7b8bb84282a81429dc39.png

Here you can see the board exit and how far inboard it is. It's a tight fit between the mast and the board. (this is the old martingale strut. We were going to do a low strut that the sale would tack over but decided to cant it forward instead. Better headstay tension 

 

image.thumb.png.0ef4e886d4317bd60c423c4ea60575d1.png

Here you can see the cant-in board solution that bought us all the extra RM.

 

image.thumb.png.3908d3f0735e91ac9c6aa76b4d2af21e.png

This shows how the curved T hides on the hull topside, hopefully getting out of the water on the windward side. This idea is 100% Dirk's. I just smile and nod. 

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image.thumb.png.dce74e0710aa6176902f288f14b7a9a2.png

This gives a good idea of what the longeron will look like. You can see the double tapered section and the raked forward martingale strut. Also note the curved T's. 

image.thumb.png.d6de88683f43fd0572d666311205ee36.png

We are adding a foot batten in the furling solent. Lots of solar.

image.thumb.png.76f5d2ca5d7c99aeaf9909e555365fe7.png

Steve McNally has been awesome at generating these renderings.

 

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image.thumb.png.7e44ab58848bc8da53b7537e055c2897.png

Gotta have a drinks fridge.

 

image.thumb.png.ccde49cd62943db0b3e3d3e9f048863e.png

Had to redo a lot of the taping. This is the coachroof taping. The hull/deck join was atrocious, too. All told it wasn't a lot of time but there's a lot of redo's everywhere. 

 

 

 

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Overall, the project is going well. 

-We got heat set up in the tent this week. It's not below freezing yet but it's getting cold.

-The plan is to wrap up all major boatbuilding by Xmas. There'll be a lot of mop-up but (hopefully) the big stuff is over by then.

-The painters are doing great. We should have all exterior surfaces to finish primer by Thanksgiving. Then we move into the salon/galley, then head down below sometime in the new year.

-We've managed to hang onto the target of 7-9 guys aboard each day. Newport is crazy busy with boats trying to get south, but somehow we still had 7 guys aboard today. (Too many guys and everyone is tripping over themselves, too few and the project drags on too long and you end up with 20 guys on the boat at the end. Get on the throttle early and stay on it). 

-At this point, I am still saying that we are on target for a May launch. With that said, I know it's really easy to just backload the schedule and say "voila, we are on schedule!". When that fails, you just reschedule the launch and say, again, "Voila, we are on schedule". So for now (knowing that I live in a glass house) I'll stick with May. 

-The next big decision is whether to go for laminated glass ($$$), tempered glass ($$), or acrylic ($). Interestingly, the Gunboat fleet has chosen the heavy and expensive laminated glass route. It's not often that you opt for the heavy and expensive option. Usually, you pay a premium for the light option. I equate it to buying $5 sunglasses at 7-11 vs Maui Jims. 

-The Harken 65's @ 48v spit the line out at 2m/sec. That's sick. That's faster than the hydraulic 990's.

 

Stop by anytime. I'm there most days.

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Man, forgive the typos above. Sail, not sale. Effort used twice in one sentence. That "edit" option disappears quickly!

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4 minutes ago, soma said:

Man, forgive the typos above. Sail, not sale. Effort used twice in one sentence. That "edit" option disappears quickly!

Thanks for the update Soma - keep em coming. Nice progress

Can you repost the two photos from #68 that refuse to load?

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2 hours ago, soma said:

Man, forgive the typos above. Sail, not sale. Effort used twice in one sentence. That "edit" option disappears quickly!

Thanks for the update.

I'm curious what you are doing for vibration isolation on the fisher pandas.   As more and more folks move toward electric backed by gennies, I think we need much better vibration isolation.   Should be much easier with constant rpm generators that don't require a mechanical coupling to a drivetrain.  Theoretically, there is no reason the generators shouldn't be near silent other than a slight output of acoustic noise from the exhaust with negligable vibration transmitted to the hull.  

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It's very easy to isolate little generators like that so you only hear the splash of the wet exhaust. I did the following on a 20 kW Kohler and you could only tell it was running by the indicator lights. Fisher Pandas - ugh.

- put them on soft mounts inside a sound absorbing box

- have a sound absorbing box that is reasonably air tight with an intake baffle

- put the box on a second set of soft mounts, the softer the better

- exhaust right at the waterline

Is that big carbon beam in the first picture built in a right / left C shaped mold and then taped along top and bottom flange?

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Airbus has a new term I learned the other day. The CEO likes to say deliveries are "backloaded". That means late.

I shall have to save it for my project management reports.

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21 hours ago, Zonker said:

It's very easy to isolate little generators like that so you only hear the splash of the wet exhaust. I did the following on a 20 kW Kohler and you could only tell it was running by the indicator lights. Fisher Pandas - ugh.

- put them on soft mounts inside a sound absorbing box

- have a sound absorbing box that is reasonably air tight with an intake baffle

- put the box on a second set of soft mounts, the softer the better

- exhaust right at the waterline

Is that big carbon beam in the first picture built in a right / left C shaped mold and then taped along top and bottom flange?

water stripping muffler is the go, will make any size gen set silent.

Water  blowing out the exhaust is so 80's

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Well in my defense that project was in 1991 and water separating mufflers were not in common use then!

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Thanks SOMA and most of the rest of you for the thoughtful questions and informed dialogue!

 

 

 

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On 10/30/2018 at 10:23 PM, soma said:

Overall, the project is going well. 

-We got heat set up in the tent this week. It's not below freezing yet but it's getting cold.

-The plan is to wrap up all major boatbuilding by Xmas. There'll be a lot of mop-up but (hopefully) the big stuff is over by then.

-The painters are doing great. We should have all exterior surfaces to finish primer by Thanksgiving. Then we move into the salon/galley, then head down below sometime in the new year.

-We've managed to hang onto the target of 7-9 guys aboard each day. Newport is crazy busy with boats trying to get south, but somehow we still had 7 guys aboard today. (Too many guys and everyone is tripping over themselves, too few and the project drags on too long and you end up with 20 guys on the boat at the end. Get on the throttle early and stay on it). 

-At this point, I am still saying that we are on target for a May launch. With that said, I know it's really easy to just backload the schedule and say "voila, we are on schedule!". When that fails, you just reschedule the launch and say, again, "Voila, we are on schedule". So for now (knowing that I live in a glass house) I'll stick with May. 

-The next big decision is whether to go for laminated glass ($$$), tempered glass ($$), or acrylic ($). Interestingly, the Gunboat fleet has chosen the heavy and expensive laminated glass route. It's not often that you opt for the heavy and expensive option. Usually, you pay a premium for the light option. I equate it to buying $5 sunglasses at 7-11 vs Maui Jims. 

-The Harken 65's @ 48v spit the line out at 2m/sec. That's sick. That's faster than the hydraulic 990's.

 

Stop by anytime. I'm there most days.

Made any decisions on type of glass or Acrylic?

What about coatings that reduce heat transmission to the interior of the boat?

http://v-kool-usa.com/

Or

https://www.huperoptikusa.com/marine/

 

These guys do lamy tempered glass with IR interlay but it costs an arm and a leg:

https://www.bentglassdesign.com/

 

 

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17 hours ago, mrybas said:

Made any decisions on type of glass or Acrylic?

1

Good question. I'm still struggling with this one. No one wants to install acrylic. Does anyone have any recommendations?

I've got good quotes for tempered and laminated options, with and without films and electro tint options. I'm at square one for acrylic...

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The forward cockpit is taking shape. Cool to see the digital become reality.

Painters are cranking, we have a big shoot tmrw. The exterior (bottom/topsides/deck/coachroof bridgedeck/salon/galley) should be all in finish primer by mid-January. Then we wait for Spring to spray the finish coat. 

We decided to abandon the Warn winch idea. We opted for a pair of additional Antal line drivers (run at 4:1 to resolve the SWL). We are still hoping to mate them to 48v motors to improve line speed, but that's not 100% yet. "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't". 

Looks like hull fly is around 14 knots TWS. Not crazy, but not overly conservative. 

IMG_5453.JPG

winch shelf rev8-assembled.jpg

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12 hours ago, soma said:

No one wants to install acrylic

Huh? It's not hard at all. Remove paper in bond area. Prep sand with 120, paint with some black super plastic paint to hide the bonding area. (Krylon spray paint actually works well). Use Sika's guide to size bond size (thickness is absolutely key to success). Use small rubber spacers to ensure it doesn't get compressed during curing. Use Sika 295 for plastic, Dow Corning 795, GE Silpruf 2000. Sika 296 for mineral glass.  How to guide: http://www.westernmarine.com/acrobat/sik application guide.pdf  Use black foam rubber weatherstripping stuck to outside perimeter of the opening as a dam so you get a neater edge rather than smearing caulking everywhere.

We had 1m x 2m x 10mm thick front windows on our cat. The bridgedeck cabin was built very light so I suspect it was slightly flexy. Never had any leak for years. Replaced only after crazing after years in the tropics. Did it all myself and while competent, all I did was read Sika's guide.

Small commercial shipyards do it all the time themselves. They don't use a specialist firm. But they do use glass because class rules don't really understand plastic.

Acrylic is SOOO much lighter. Use a pretty dark tint - you'll see nav lights through them. 

You can get pretty nice marine roller blinds that work on angled windows:  https://www.solasolv.com/

The big tradeoff is lifespan versus weight. Plastic lasts maybe 6 years in the tropics uncovered. Glass lasts decades but the bond may need to be replaced in 10 years. Glass looks great forever, plastic, not so much.

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Yeah, I've installed acrylic windows before, too. It's not that hard. It's just...no one in Newport is willing to. There are folks in Florida, but by the time you pay for their travel to template, then again their travel to install, etc you end up bumping up to the range of the cost for glass.