full circle

shit show (front page)

Recommended Posts

should have posted this topic here and not in sailing anarchy but...

 

from the video on the front page "shit show", i'm thinking these boats and teams will have such a high learning curve to control them, that any team that does not mostly master them will be a joke. the video makes it look like it just fucking spun up and out of the water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted this in the “ what will they look like  “ thread a few hours before this one started and it’s gone from there as well . It’s possible there was a serious situation which might have made the publicity in bad taste . It was a rather violent capsize , crew were tossed and with carbon fiber blades exposed there is no telling what may have happened . It’s bound to come out at some point  but the removal of the video is ominous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, full circle said:

should have posted this topic here and not in sailing anarchy but...

 

from the video on the front page "shit show", i'm thinking these boats and teams will have such a high learning curve to control them, that any team that does not mostly master them will be a joke. the video makes it look like it just fucking spun up and out of the water.

Can you describe the video?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Can you describe the video?

The boat is sailing in what looks like minimum foiling conditions, there’s no sea to speak of as is evident by the fact the RIB in the frame is barely bouncing around at all. Boat starts to rise a bit, and then does a sideways flop into the water. Happened very quickly.

i think someone was just butthurt the crash was caught on tape. If people had been hurt, the jungle drums would be beating loudly.

boat looks utterly ridiculous with the foil sticking out to weather, and even dumber when it’s laying on its side and waving in the air.

this is going to go down as the dumbest piece of technology ever. Seriously, who gives a fuck any more about the AC? What other sport has done anything this stupid? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The boat was heading upmwond . Close hauled . The commentator following says “ it’s getting higher” and then it just lays over to leeward quite quickly and the crew is ejected . There were comments like ,” that’s got to hurt “ and “ the guys are in the water “were mentioned . The filming stopped shortl after as the follow boat made its way to the crash . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that the foil suddenly provided too much lift, so the boat went bow up and to winward.

Either a mistake of AoA or were they pushed the foil down too quickly, imo.

The wipeout was strong and harsh. I would not rule out injuries and material damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

The boat is sailing in what looks like minimum foiling conditions, there’s no sea to speak of as is evident by the fact the RIB in the frame is barely bouncing around at all. Boat starts to rise a bit, and then does a sideways flop into the water. Happened very quickly.

i think someone was just butthurt the crash was caught on tape. If people had been hurt, the jungle drums would be beating loudly.

boat looks utterly ridiculous with the foil sticking out to weather, and even dumber when it’s laying on its side and waving in the air.

this is going to go down as the dumbest piece of technology ever. Seriously, who gives a fuck any more about the AC? What other sport has done anything this stupid? 

e69d54f5c197d9bb13e88620447b2062.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, mfluder said:

e69d54f5c197d9bb13e88620447b2062.jpg

Agreed . The AC has been losing relevance with the majority of the sailing community for the past few editions . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, I don't think if would have crashed if it was a multi, and it follows my prediction that this boat would crash to winward.

@rh2600 will hate me for being right :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Poida said:

Hope someone fixes the video link

 

I think you'll find someone has "fixed" the video

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

BTW, I don't think if would have crashed if it was a multi, and it follows my prediction that this boat would crash to winward.

@rh2600 will hate me for being right :)

I haven't seen the video, but didn't this crash to leeward as described?

I thought we argued about pitchpolling propensity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

BTW, I don't think if would have crashed if it was a multi, and it follows my prediction that this boat would crash to winward.

@rh2600 will hate me for being right :)

Right at the start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have seen the video but not sure you can draw many conclusions from an experimental 28 foot version compared to a 75 foot one.

A 28 footer is almost certainly more likely to go over than a full 75 foor version, this is the same with basically every type of sail boat, the smaller they are the easier they tend to tip up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Boybland said:

I have seen the video but not sure you can draw many conclusions from an experimental 28 foot version compared to a 75 foot one.

A 28 footer is almost certainly more likely to go over than a full 75 foor version, this is the same with basically every type of sail boat, the smaller they are the easier they tend to tip up.

Wel of course...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I haven't seen the video, but didn't this crash to leeward as described?

I thought we argued about pitchpolling propensity?

We had argued about the different possibilities of the boat crash, mainly to windward.

Of what I have seen from the video the bow went suddenly up and the boat fell to winward, very quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

has all the signs of rudder letting go...which could be the tee foil trim control or failure as well as rudder itself.   We know exactly what happens on the Q23 when the teefoil decides to part company with the rudder!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Yep, sure looks like they lost grip at the back - bow suddenly spearing up into the wind....

 

Fickle FP, wasn't there some positivity after the 'stable flight' video, now it's hopeless :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, nav said:

^ Yep, sure looks like they lost grip at the back - bow suddenly spearing up into the wind....

 

Fickle FP, wasn't there some positivity after the 'stable flight' video, now it's hopeless :D

I don’t know. It’s the hilarious crash pretty much all of us saw coming. I still say it’s a dopey design, but won’t fault it for crashes in the learning/prototype phase. 

If they’re crashing like that on a regular basis once the real racing starts, they’re a failure. For now it’s just a prototype with some funny carnage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Lost relevance to sailing public".  Really?  When, in 160 years, has it EVER been relevant?

 

Ranger-wins-in-2011-credit-challengeandadventure.com_-1-900x600-c-center.jpg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, JimBowie said:

"Lost relevance to sailing public".  Really?  When, in 160 years, has it EVER been relevant?

 

Ranger-wins-in-2011-credit-challengeandadventure.com_-1-900x600-c-center.jpg

Half "the sailing public" is sitting on the rail. 

New approach to stadium sailing.  Take the bleachers along with you.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AC has been vastly more relevant, most of its history. It's just that the modern PR hype has ignored the fact that the AC boats used to just be big mainstream racing yachts. The AC foilers are not.

In part, the belief that the AC boats were not relevant comes from US experience. It was quite different in England, when even the J-size boats often used to race week in, week out in local regattas. There's also a fair amount of simple PR hype.

The AC boats used to be built to existing rules - not to new rules as with the foiling AC boats.

The AC boats used to be built to the same rules as the typical smaller boats on the regatta circuits in the USA, UK and other parts of the world - not to unique rules as with the foiling AC boats. That J (or the original) was built to the same Universal Rule as the dozens of Ps, Ns, Ms, Rs and Ss that raced in clubs and regattas across North America. The Metre boats were similar - so similar that 23 Metres and L x SA rule boats were converted into Js. The smaller Universal Rule and Metre Rule boats were the foundation of widespread yacht racing and made up a very large proportion of the entire racing fleet. That's not the case with foilers. 

The Js and other AC boats also raced against normal club and regatta fleets, especially in the UK. A British AC challenger of the '30s could race at about 20% of the active sailing clubs in the country in a single season. AC boats like Magic, Galatea, Valkyrie II, Endeavour and Vim had long careers as typical big club and regatta cruiser-racers. The AC foilers do not do normal club regattas, and none of them have had careers before and after the AC.

Up till and including the J Boat era, for each AC challenger or defender there was at least one boat of similar speed, size and shape that also raced on the regatta circuit, but had nothing to do with the AC. These were boats like Cambria, Velsheda, White Heather II, Britannia, Satanita, Ephygia, Katoura, Navahoe and the early Meteors. That's not the case today - there are no 50 or 72 foot foiling cats out there on the normal racing circuits, and there are not going to be any 75 foot foiling monos taking part in normal events in mainstream regattas like BIRW or Cowes Week.

The fact that there were boats that were very similar to the AC boats, which were built without the slightest intention of racing for the AC, shows how close the AC boats used to be to "mainstream" racing. It's as if the AC was being sailed to the IRC or ORCi rules these days.

By the time the 12s were selected ocean racing was on the rise, but there were still lots of 8 Metres, 6 Metres, 5 Metres and 10 Metres racing around the world. There were even still M Class events in Cali, so the 12s weren't the biggest and fastest inshore racers of their time. The 12s were still racing as a class in Norway, I think. Eights were racing at class events in Scotland and Seattle. As far away as Australia, there had still been recent national events in 8 Metres and 6 Metres. That's not the case today. There is no 50 foot monofoiler fleet at any regatta. There is no fleet of 50 foot monofoilers racing each week in Sydney, Seattle and the Solent.

The simple facts are that the AC boats used to be pretty much mainstream big boats, of similar design, speed and size to many non-AC boats, and built to the same rules as hundreds of smaller boats that did local regattas alongside the AC boats. None of those factors apply with the AC foilers. The AC was much more relevant to the typical sailor in the past.

 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kiwi accent, ETNZ spy boat footage?

Initially removed due to being too obvious which spy took it?

 

Really hard to tell whats going on at that ultra potato quality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect that a crash like this on the full sized version would break the mast. What would happen to the crew and the rest of the boat is probably ugly as well.

The sequence seems to be:

Rudder lets go

Boat spins into the wind

Boat trips over leeward foil

Boat violently capsizes to leeward

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Fireball, totally makes sense when you put it that way.  Hard to predict from a VPP / CFD simulation.  

Ouch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Curious said:

The AC has been vastly more relevant, most of its history. ......

......of similar design, speed and size to many non-AC boats, and built to the same rules .....

None of those factors apply with the AC foilers. The AC was much more relevant to the typical sailor in the past.

 

Used to race to the same rules as well   :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Fireball said:

I suspect that a crash like this on the full sized version would break the mast. What would happen to the crew and the rest of the boat is probably ugly as well.

The sequence seems to be:

Rudder lets go

Boat spins into the wind

Boat trips over leeward foil

Boat violently capsizes to leeward

How would this play out differently in a cat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

How would this play out differently in a cat?

I'm sure we're going to see many different ways to capsize the new boats in the next couple of years and over the last 5 years or so we've seen many different ways to capsize the cats.

But I doubt they are going to be exactly the same capsizes.

In this case the boat lifts up and the leeward foil comes to the surface and ventilates. So the hull falls from maximum height, which is the distance from the t-foil to the hull.

In a cat this distance is smaller. The boat just falls to the leeward arma.

The cats mainly capsized after a pitchpole. I don't recall seeing anything like the capsize in this video  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

How would this play out differently in a cat?

I am no tech expert, so I am just guessing.  But compared to a foiling monohull with parallel foils (moth like) or a foiling multihull, I think this has definitely some bigger side loads on the rudder.

For example one month ago in the moth my rudder vertical exploded at the bottom in 20 knots and I didn't even capsize. The boat sky dived and then fell of the foil. Similar when it happened to the superfoiler in adelaide. yes, they capsized but did not dramatically change course in the process.

Here it seems like the boat totally goes in a spin when (we assume that) rudder snaps, because rudder/main forces are not aligned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regardless of my feelings about the GR75 things like this should be expected with a new design like this.  So no “I told you so” from me.  That’s why Ben’s Boys are learning on a small surrogate.  Just hope no one gets seriously hurt in the process.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

How would this play out differently in a cat?

Because the winward hull of a cat or tri prevents most often a ww capsize, contrarily to a mono.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thing will murder the AC cats when it's up and running...! The beam of a cat only gets in the way. Such early days and the doubters are like vultures and are coming in for the kill.! Did you see the gybe..??? It was nano seconds. I live development, this thing has so much potential IMO. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/31/2018 at 2:26 PM, Fireball said:

I suspect that a crash like this on the full sized version would break the mast. What would happen to the crew and the rest of the boat is probably ugly as well.

The sequence seems to be: …

In the new video, (if it's the same incident, the clip doesn't show the boat capsizing), it looks like the starboard foil ventilates a la Moth, with the same result: down the mine they go. I think the image below is the first one in the clip, pity they didn't include a bit more of the prelude and aftermath as there's a lot of spray from the rudder too. It would be interesting to know which came first.

If the rudder snapped, there should be nothing from the back of the boat. Perhaps they're just too high and both rudder and main foil are ventilating? It's pretty flat water, so good time to see just how far they can push it.

The port foil seems to have much more anhedral, perhaps to avoid such severe ventilation?

117762741_INEOSvent.thumb.png.a37b01519fd40ecd17aefaadb2d23835.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ I think they are different incidents. After the photo above the main foil appears to ventilate, but the rudder doesn't. The boat pitches down and comes to a sudden stop, but doesn't appear to capsize.

In the grainy home video the rudder appears to ventilate first and the boat yaws into the wind, pitches up, rolls to leeward, the main foil ventilates and the boat drops from maximum height. So we have yaw, pitch, roll and heave.

It seems that sailing these boats you really don't want the rudder to let go at anytime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC, both incidents were on different tacks but with the same problem: boat falling to ww, but much more slowy in the second one.

IMO both were caused by too lift from the foil. See here just before the crash, the foil is out of the water

image.png.c787ef64bbe464ca7a48ab846a4a50b0.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, the mild crash they presented may be an early one as the boat had the float, which prevented the capsize.

Obviously we can't rule out a rudder problem but it seems that it was too much lift from the foil.

An  inversed V with more angle, as the ww one on the photo, may  be safer, ... but slower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Fireball said:

^ I think they are different incidents.

Yes, I came to that conclusion too and nearly deleted the post. 

Maybe a case of trickle up? The joys of skiff sailing being introduced to what used to be lead mines? :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/30/2018 at 7:53 PM, nav said:

....

 

Fickle FP, wasn't there some positivity after the 'stable flight' video, now it's hopeless :D

 

:D

INEOS-TEAM-UK.jpg

 

It appears that I may have to eat my words, well at least some of them, when it comes to the new America’s Cup design. I have been watching some videos of  INEOS TEAM UK, the British Challenger for the America’s Cup, and the boat looks quite amazing.

....

All in all it seems to be shaping up to be a great regatta despite my earlier grumbling. – Brian Hancock.

 

etc @ fp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanna know what vids he's been seeing that include tacks to come to the conclusion tacking is a bust?

Because I think of the 3-4 vids posted here there is only the one tack & it was foiling, maybe 2 gybes 1 of which was nearly foiling & quickly back up to speed, the other a successful foiling gybe.

 

Likewise he must have been watching a different competition last time where AC50s tacked slowly... :huh:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/31/2018 at 2:28 AM, Curious said:

The AC has been vastly more relevant, most of its history. It's just that the modern PR hype has ignored the fact that the AC boats used to just be big mainstream racing yachts. The AC foilers are not.

In part, the belief that the AC boats were not relevant comes from US experience. It was quite different in England, when even the J-size boats often used to race week in, week out in local regattas. There's also a fair amount of simple PR hype.

The AC boats used to be built to existing rules - not to new rules as with the foiling AC boats.

The AC boats used to be built to the same rules as the typical smaller boats on the regatta circuits in the USA, UK and other parts of the world - not to unique rules as with the foiling AC boats. That J (or the original) was built to the same Universal Rule as the dozens of Ps, Ns, Ms, Rs and Ss that raced in clubs and regattas across North America. The Metre boats were similar - so similar that 23 Metres and L x SA rule boats were converted into Js. The smaller Universal Rule and Metre Rule boats were the foundation of widespread yacht racing and made up a very large proportion of the entire racing fleet. That's not the case with foilers. 

The Js and other AC boats also raced against normal club and regatta fleets, especially in the UK. A British AC challenger of the '30s could race at about 20% of the active sailing clubs in the country in a single season. AC boats like Magic, Galatea, Valkyrie II, Endeavour and Vim had long careers as typical big club and regatta cruiser-racers. The AC foilers do not do normal club regattas, and none of them have had careers before and after the AC.

Up till and including the J Boat era, for each AC challenger or defender there was at least one boat of similar speed, size and shape that also raced on the regatta circuit, but had nothing to do with the AC. These were boats like Cambria, Velsheda, White Heather II, Britannia, Satanita, Ephygia, Katoura, Navahoe and the early Meteors. That's not the case today - there are no 50 or 72 foot foiling cats out there on the normal racing circuits, and there are not going to be any 75 foot foiling monos taking part in normal events in mainstream regattas like BIRW or Cowes Week.

The fact that there were boats that were very similar to the AC boats, which were built without the slightest intention of racing for the AC, shows how close the AC boats used to be to "mainstream" racing. It's as if the AC was being sailed to the IRC or ORCi rules these days.

By the time the 12s were selected ocean racing was on the rise, but there were still lots of 8 Metres, 6 Metres, 5 Metres and 10 Metres racing around the world. There were even still M Class events in Cali, so the 12s weren't the biggest and fastest inshore racers of their time. The 12s were still racing as a class in Norway, I think. Eights were racing at class events in Scotland and Seattle. As far away as Australia, there had still been recent national events in 8 Metres and 6 Metres. That's not the case today. There is no 50 foot monofoiler fleet at any regatta. There is no fleet of 50 foot monofoilers racing each week in Sydney, Seattle and the Solent.

The simple facts are that the AC boats used to be pretty much mainstream big boats, of similar design, speed and size to many non-AC boats, and built to the same rules as hundreds of smaller boats that did local regattas alongside the AC boats. None of those factors apply with the AC foilers. The AC was much more relevant to the typical sailor in the past.

 

 

Could that not be compared to the way in which, following on from San Francisco, there has been a flurry of activity in foiling multis?  GC32s,  Phantoms,  ETF, F101 etc.  The majority of sailors in these classes are not pros, though obviously some are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No shit show here, most beautiful sailing ever...

 

Beautiful yes, kind of like watching the grass grow...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now