Lucky Dog

New Mainsail - what sailmaker What Type

Recommended Posts

Helllo,

 

this should be fun.  Blew up my racing main looking for a new one.  Currently have 3di dacron jibs.  - at the time of purchase North did not offer composite ones so I am stuck with those.  BTW the #3 is really nice but really stiff/thick.  The 3Di dacron sails are stiff doing a headsail change is a lot harder than with a conventional sail due to thickness.

SO I was thinking of sailing the boat with #3 with either fat top mainsail or large roach mainsail to make up for smaller head sail as its racing configuration.  I am open to comments - I see Farr 40's sailing this way and they seem to go just fine in the light stuff.  

 

Boat it First 40.7 shoal draft with brand new #3 and #2 3Di dacron sails.  Bottom is nice have Gori prop with faired rudder.

comments are welcome.  Plan on purchasing new main in March 2019 in time for summer sailing.  Sail will be stored on boom.  I  sail with lazy jacks most of the year we remove them for the big yearly race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bravo Zulu is a well campaigned 40.7 in Seattle and they use a code 5 3di main (foreground boat in this picture) and carry their #1 for a long time.

3813

Getting an oversized main through the backstay on a 40' boat is a lot different than doing it on a light Farr 30 (which also probably has a backstay flicker, like the FT10 just in front of Bravo Zulu in that photo). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are overlooking that the Farr 40 rig is designed for non-overlapping headsails in contrast to a Bene 40.7. Also, you'd want to lose the fixed backstay and add masthead runners in order to fit the fathead main. I don't think this is a good idea at all.

 

Inshore you're generally changing on downwinds or between races anyway, and offshore if it's a pain (and I know it is because of the single jib tracks and relatively small foredeck) you can barehead if you need to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks

The backstay is the main issue - I have seen guys add a tackle system let if off and then tack(not on a First 40.7).  Seems a little stupid but I wanted to get others opinions

what is a Code 5 mainsail?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Code 5 is a standard sized mainsail according to our PHRF body (so no adjustment in rating).  How sail size changes are handled seems to vary a lot in different PHRF bodies, so I don't know exactly how it would be handled where you are.  We have a handbook that we can look at to see how it'll be calculated.  Here a fathead main would probably be more like a code 7 or 8, and those lower the PHRF by 6 or 9 seconds.

I bet that your sail maker can help you figure it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can sort out your backstay geometry, you will find a fathead main will greatly increase your performance - I get 10% more top end speed with mine. Of course you will need full battens. Doyle made me a fathead main using DP Flex24 cloth - it saved about half the $ of a spectra laminate. Flex has 5 axes of polyester filaments laminated between polyester scrims; this allows for very efficient build as it's a panel cut sail that does not need tri radial construction in the corners. It has held up well for 5 years of intensive year 'round use. I would recommend the material even if you decide against a fathead design.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/5/2018 at 9:18 AM, tomtriad said:

If you can sort out your backstay geometry, you will find a fathead main will greatly increase your performance - I get 10% more top end speed with mine. Of course you will need full battens. Doyle made me a fathead main using DP Flex24 cloth - it saved about half the $ of a spectra laminate. Flex has 5 axes of polyester filaments laminated between polyester scrims; this allows for very efficient build as it's a panel cut sail that does not need tri radial construction in the corners. It has held up well for 5 years of intensive year 'round use. I would recommend the material even if you decide against a fathead design.

I'm picking it's not on a Benetau First though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going to join in on this one.

We're sailing a First 31,7 and need a new main. It's now down to Elvstrøm vs North or in other words Filmonfilm w/Technora vs 3Di 360. 

I'm leaning towards 3Di, but have heard people say that getting the halyard tension right is really hard. What are peoples experience with the 3Di on the main?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr Aspelund regarding halyard tension are you referring to sensitivity? I am experiencing that issue with my jibs.

 

  On my 3Di headsails that for sure is true.  You have to get it right -

Hmm what is the 3Di 360?  is that the same as composite?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lucky Dog How sensitiv is the tension for the mail sail? And do you loose a lot if it is not sett absolutely right? 
We will be sailing a lot double handed and the less work the better. But we also want something durable and value for money.

Could't find anything on the english site about 3Di 360, but do a google translate on this Swedis site: https://northsails.com/sailing/en/loft-news/nyhet-3di-raw-360

The main ting is that it is for smaller boats, under 38 foot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK I am thinking of going to North - its the tech and durability of 3Di that is selling me.  

However - on my current dacron 3Di sails they are very thick and stiff.  I am not sure I could easily with the wife tame this with the lazy jacks.  FYI until the 3DL blew up this sail was the best for lazy jacks - it fell down perfectly with out any human touching the sail - go figure. (you had to compress the front by mast to get cover on).

I was wondering does anyone have any experience with the 3Di raw 760?  vers 3Di endurance 760?  I know the 36.7 using t he endurance 760.  

Our would I have to go with Raw or Endurance 780 with a little carbon as the boat has much more loading to get the sail more flexible.

Any one with experience with these sails your input would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it is worth, I am going for a Doyle Stratis with Doyles own composite membrane(https://doylesails.com/innovation/about-stratis/carbon-ice/gpx) for a new main and Jib with one reef. Will be interesting to see how it stays together over time. The local doyle sailmaker so far provided a far better customer experience than any of the others and globally Doyle seems to be the loft which is closest to competing with North and 3Di.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I race a sunfast 3600 and we have a broad range of 3di on board. 

Mainsail: 3di endurance, 780, 2 reefs

J1: 3di raw, 780, hanks

J2: 3di endurance, 780, 1 reef, hanks

J3: 3di Nordac, 1 reef, hanks

GS/storm jib: 3di Nordac, set on a furler to be used as a staysail

all these sails were stiff when they were new, particularly the J2 when trying to hank it on the forestry. It’s worth noting that they all soften up with use. The stiffness of 3di is partly what makes it so effective. For your use 3di endurance would be ideal for a mainsail, lighter weight than Nordac, however it must be remembered that it will still be a pain in the ass the first few times you use it but even I noticed it soften even after one use. I would recommend 760 endurance that doesn’t have carbon in mainly because they sail will be slightly less stiff and more forgiving to trim and getting a perfect flake will be less critical. 

We also race a J88 which has a 3di raw 780M main and a 3di raw 780M J2. These sails were found to be far better than the 3di Race sails sold to the rest of the UK fleet, these sails proved to be a flop and have since been withdrawn from sale. Avoid them like the plague!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am very happy with my new Flex-Ultra main.  It is a cross cut material with spectra strings.  Cheaper than any quote that had tri-radial.  Nice cloth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, JL92S said:

I race a sunfast 3600 and we have a broad range of 3di on board. 

Mainsail: 3di endurance, 780, 2 reefs

J1: 3di raw, 780, hanks

J2: 3di endurance, 780, 1 reef, hanks

J3: 3di Nordac, 1 reef, hanks

GS/storm jib: 3di Nordac, set on a furler to be used as a staysail

all these sails were stiff when they were new, particularly the J2 when trying to hank it on the forestry. It’s worth noting that they all soften up with use. The stiffness of 3di is partly what makes it so effective. For your use 3di endurance would be ideal for a mainsail, lighter weight than Nordac, however it must be remembered that it will still be a pain in the ass the first few times you use it but even I noticed it soften even after one use. I would recommend 760 endurance that doesn’t have carbon in mainly because they sail will be slightly less stiff and more forgiving to trim and getting a perfect flake will be less critical. 

We also race a J88 which has a 3di raw 780M main and a 3di raw 780M J2. These sails were found to be far better than the 3di Race sails sold to the rest of the UK fleet, these sails proved to be a flop and have since been withdrawn from sale. Avoid them like the plague!

 

Thanks for the information regarding flexibility - I have been looking for real world information.

 I will use the #3 3Di Dacron for the rest of the year and see if it gets better.   

 

I am not clear on the J88 comment - so the "Stock" 3di race sails are not good - right?

Thanks again for the comments.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, allene222 said:

I am very happy with my new Flex-Ultra main.  It is a cross cut material with spectra strings.  Cheaper than any quote that had tri-radial.  Nice cloth.

Ok will check it out - still leaning 3di - maybe 2 new Flex Ultra's for the cost of one 3di

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lucky Dog said:

Thanks for the information regarding flexibility - I have been looking for real world information.

 I will use the #3 3Di Dacron for the rest of the year and see if it gets better.   

 

I am not clear on the J88 comment - so the "Stock" 3di race sails are not good - right?

Thanks again for the comments.

 

North trialled 3di Race which was aimed at the club race sub 40ft market which was based around 760 material. This product was about 30% cheaper than the raw sails hence why every other boat in the fleet bought them. However after a few races some boats found the sails were stretching out of shape and a couple of boats had holes appearing in the mainsail in the same place. Since then a couple of boats have chosen to explore 3di endurance or choosing an alternate sailmaker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, JL92S said:

North trialled 3di Race which was aimed at the club race sub 40ft market which was based around 760 material. This product was about 30% cheaper than the raw sails hence why every other boat in the fleet bought them. However after a few races some boats found the sails were stretching out of shape and a couple of boats had holes appearing in the mainsail in the same place. Since then a couple of boats have chosen to explore 3di endurance or choosing an alternate sailmaker

well that is interesting - now it clear to me.

What are your thought on reefing using the 780 endurance?   I really want to have the option to actually use a reef for a short period without destroying my mainsail.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few weeks ago we completed the near 2000nm round Britain and Ireland race and we spent half the race with either one or two reefs in up to 45kts of wind and the main is as good as it was at the start of the race.

Just one small thing is our endurance main is coloured black, the outer protective layer of endurance is made of polyester 3di tapes (Nordac) and can be coloured either white, grey or black. After reefing and generally handling the main the black dyed outer layer has worn a little (where the main has sat on the shrouds for example). To match your Nordac jobs I would advise getting the sail in white or grey and avoiding the decolouring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always liked North Sails and used serveral other sailmakers but always seem to come back to North. Since you are buying about 6 months out, don't forget discounts that are usually available at the end of the year and the week of boat shows in your area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:35 PM, JL92S said:

A few weeks ago we completed the near 2000nm round Britain and Ireland race and we spent half the race with either one or two reefs in up to 45kts of wind and the main is as good as it was at the start of the race.

Just one small thing is our endurance main is coloured black, the outer protective layer of endurance is made of polyester 3di tapes (Nordac) and can be coloured either white, grey or black. After reefing and generally handling the main the black dyed outer layer has worn a little (where the main has sat on the shrouds for example). To match your Nordac jobs I would advise getting the sail in white or grey and avoiding the decolouring.

Thanks again for the real world feed back.   I have made my own and bought other sails than North - I too keep going back.  Perhaps its the marketing along with the product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I just got a quote on a 780 endurance sail from north and lets just say it was quite the shock  - about twice what I was thinking.

No way would I pay that much for a sail.  So I asked for the Nordac quote - not holding my breath for it to be much lower.

I could by a Prosail plotter and most likely build my own disposable main for the cost quoted. 

                        The wife and I have some thinking to do.

Now looking at Patterson, Doyle and Quantum - any one else I should get a quote from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What was the quote, and what do you hope/expect a 40.7 main to cost?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2018 at 5:18 PM, tomtriad said:

If you can sort out your backstay geometry, you will find a fathead main will greatly increase your performance - I get 10% more top end speed with mine. Of course you will need full battens. Doyle made me a fathead main using DP Flex24 cloth - it saved about half the $ of a spectra laminate. Flex has 5 axes of polyester filaments laminated between polyester scrims; this allows for very efficient build as it's a panel cut sail that does not need tri radial construction in the corners. It has held up well for 5 years of intensive year 'round use. I would recommend the material even if you decide against a fathead design.

That's quite a claim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/1/2018 at 9:53 AM, Lucky Dog said:

Well I just got a quote on a 780 endurance sail from north and lets just say it was quite the shock  - about twice what I was thinking.

No way would I pay that much for a sail.  So I asked for the Nordac quote - not holding my breath for it to be much lower.

I could by a Prosail plotter and most likely build my own disposable main for the cost quoted. 

                        The wife and I have some thinking to do.

Now looking at Patterson, Doyle and Quantum - any one else I should get a quote from?

Ullman Sails Detroit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally i’ve been very happy with Doyle sails from the Detroit loft.  However North bought that loft a couple years ago and I will probably move to a different Doyle loft when I need new sails.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I got quotes for 3DI Nordac thought they were reasonable for a 32 ft boat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Gracious said:

 I got quotes for 3DI Nordac thought they were reasonable for a 32 ft boat. 

I am in the process of getting the 3di nordiac quote.  I hope its more reasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m not US based but I wouldn’t expect the 3di endurance quote to be in the $14-15k area?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JL92S said:

I’m not US based but I wouldn’t expect the 3di endurance quote to be in the $14-15k area?

Yes you are in the ball park a little higher.

does anyone else think this cost is a little high?  its not a all carbon - its a little carbon with a newer process.   Are you paying for manufacturing costs or material costs?  

Yes the sail will last longer - I could purchase 4 mainsails made with laminates for that cost.  Anyway still like the 3di concept looking at lower my expectations to a nordac.  However I am going to get laminate quotes to see delta's.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geez do ya really think all the National Advertising is cheap, what do you guys think a multi issue full page ad costs in only one magazine costs or a web banner ad like the exact one at the top of SA??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your not in a hurry Ullman usually has a 30% I think it is off sale for spring delivery over the winter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now