Lucky Dog

New Mainsail - what sailmaker What Type

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Helllo,

 

this should be fun.  Blew up my racing main looking for a new one.  Currently have 3di dacron jibs.  - at the time of purchase North did not offer composite ones so I am stuck with those.  BTW the #3 is really nice but really stiff/thick.  The 3Di dacron sails are stiff doing a headsail change is a lot harder than with a conventional sail due to thickness.

SO I was thinking of sailing the boat with #3 with either fat top mainsail or large roach mainsail to make up for smaller head sail as its racing configuration.  I am open to comments - I see Farr 40's sailing this way and they seem to go just fine in the light stuff.  

 

Boat it First 40.7 shoal draft with brand new #3 and #2 3Di dacron sails.  Bottom is nice have Gori prop with faired rudder.

comments are welcome.  Plan on purchasing new main in March 2019 in time for summer sailing.  Sail will be stored on boom.  I  sail with lazy jacks most of the year we remove them for the big yearly race.

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Bravo Zulu is a well campaigned 40.7 in Seattle and they use a code 5 3di main (foreground boat in this picture) and carry their #1 for a long time.

3813

Getting an oversized main through the backstay on a 40' boat is a lot different than doing it on a light Farr 30 (which also probably has a backstay flicker, like the FT10 just in front of Bravo Zulu in that photo). 

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I think you are overlooking that the Farr 40 rig is designed for non-overlapping headsails in contrast to a Bene 40.7. Also, you'd want to lose the fixed backstay and add masthead runners in order to fit the fathead main. I don't think this is a good idea at all.

 

Inshore you're generally changing on downwinds or between races anyway, and offshore if it's a pain (and I know it is because of the single jib tracks and relatively small foredeck) you can barehead if you need to.

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Thanks

The backstay is the main issue - I have seen guys add a tackle system let if off and then tack(not on a First 40.7).  Seems a little stupid but I wanted to get others opinions

what is a Code 5 mainsail?

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Code 5 is a standard sized mainsail according to our PHRF body (so no adjustment in rating).  How sail size changes are handled seems to vary a lot in different PHRF bodies, so I don't know exactly how it would be handled where you are.  We have a handbook that we can look at to see how it'll be calculated.  Here a fathead main would probably be more like a code 7 or 8, and those lower the PHRF by 6 or 9 seconds.

I bet that your sail maker can help you figure it out.

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If you can sort out your backstay geometry, you will find a fathead main will greatly increase your performance - I get 10% more top end speed with mine. Of course you will need full battens. Doyle made me a fathead main using DP Flex24 cloth - it saved about half the $ of a spectra laminate. Flex has 5 axes of polyester filaments laminated between polyester scrims; this allows for very efficient build as it's a panel cut sail that does not need tri radial construction in the corners. It has held up well for 5 years of intensive year 'round use. I would recommend the material even if you decide against a fathead design.

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On 9/5/2018 at 9:18 AM, tomtriad said:

If you can sort out your backstay geometry, you will find a fathead main will greatly increase your performance - I get 10% more top end speed with mine. Of course you will need full battens. Doyle made me a fathead main using DP Flex24 cloth - it saved about half the $ of a spectra laminate. Flex has 5 axes of polyester filaments laminated between polyester scrims; this allows for very efficient build as it's a panel cut sail that does not need tri radial construction in the corners. It has held up well for 5 years of intensive year 'round use. I would recommend the material even if you decide against a fathead design.

I'm picking it's not on a Benetau First though. 

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Going to join in on this one.

We're sailing a First 31,7 and need a new main. It's now down to Elvstrøm vs North or in other words Filmonfilm w/Technora vs 3Di 360. 

I'm leaning towards 3Di, but have heard people say that getting the halyard tension right is really hard. What are peoples experience with the 3Di on the main?

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Mr Aspelund regarding halyard tension are you referring to sensitivity? I am experiencing that issue with my jibs.

 

  On my 3Di headsails that for sure is true.  You have to get it right -

Hmm what is the 3Di 360?  is that the same as composite?

 

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@Lucky Dog How sensitiv is the tension for the mail sail? And do you loose a lot if it is not sett absolutely right? 
We will be sailing a lot double handed and the less work the better. But we also want something durable and value for money.

Could't find anything on the english site about 3Di 360, but do a google translate on this Swedis site: https://northsails.com/sailing/en/loft-news/nyhet-3di-raw-360

The main ting is that it is for smaller boats, under 38 foot. 

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OK I am thinking of going to North - its the tech and durability of 3Di that is selling me.  

However - on my current dacron 3Di sails they are very thick and stiff.  I am not sure I could easily with the wife tame this with the lazy jacks.  FYI until the 3DL blew up this sail was the best for lazy jacks - it fell down perfectly with out any human touching the sail - go figure. (you had to compress the front by mast to get cover on).

I was wondering does anyone have any experience with the 3Di raw 760?  vers 3Di endurance 760?  I know the 36.7 using t he endurance 760.  

Our would I have to go with Raw or Endurance 780 with a little carbon as the boat has much more loading to get the sail more flexible.

Any one with experience with these sails your input would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank 

 

 

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For what it is worth, I am going for a Doyle Stratis with Doyles own composite membrane(https://doylesails.com/innovation/about-stratis/carbon-ice/gpx) for a new main and Jib with one reef. Will be interesting to see how it stays together over time. The local doyle sailmaker so far provided a far better customer experience than any of the others and globally Doyle seems to be the loft which is closest to competing with North and 3Di.

 

 

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I race a sunfast 3600 and we have a broad range of 3di on board. 

Mainsail: 3di endurance, 780, 2 reefs

J1: 3di raw, 780, hanks

J2: 3di endurance, 780, 1 reef, hanks

J3: 3di Nordac, 1 reef, hanks

GS/storm jib: 3di Nordac, set on a furler to be used as a staysail

all these sails were stiff when they were new, particularly the J2 when trying to hank it on the forestry. It’s worth noting that they all soften up with use. The stiffness of 3di is partly what makes it so effective. For your use 3di endurance would be ideal for a mainsail, lighter weight than Nordac, however it must be remembered that it will still be a pain in the ass the first few times you use it but even I noticed it soften even after one use. I would recommend 760 endurance that doesn’t have carbon in mainly because they sail will be slightly less stiff and more forgiving to trim and getting a perfect flake will be less critical. 

We also race a J88 which has a 3di raw 780M main and a 3di raw 780M J2. These sails were found to be far better than the 3di Race sails sold to the rest of the UK fleet, these sails proved to be a flop and have since been withdrawn from sale. Avoid them like the plague!

 

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I am very happy with my new Flex-Ultra main.  It is a cross cut material with spectra strings.  Cheaper than any quote that had tri-radial.  Nice cloth.

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16 hours ago, JL92S said:

I race a sunfast 3600 and we have a broad range of 3di on board. 

Mainsail: 3di endurance, 780, 2 reefs

J1: 3di raw, 780, hanks

J2: 3di endurance, 780, 1 reef, hanks

J3: 3di Nordac, 1 reef, hanks

GS/storm jib: 3di Nordac, set on a furler to be used as a staysail

all these sails were stiff when they were new, particularly the J2 when trying to hank it on the forestry. It’s worth noting that they all soften up with use. The stiffness of 3di is partly what makes it so effective. For your use 3di endurance would be ideal for a mainsail, lighter weight than Nordac, however it must be remembered that it will still be a pain in the ass the first few times you use it but even I noticed it soften even after one use. I would recommend 760 endurance that doesn’t have carbon in mainly because they sail will be slightly less stiff and more forgiving to trim and getting a perfect flake will be less critical. 

We also race a J88 which has a 3di raw 780M main and a 3di raw 780M J2. These sails were found to be far better than the 3di Race sails sold to the rest of the UK fleet, these sails proved to be a flop and have since been withdrawn from sale. Avoid them like the plague!

 

Thanks for the information regarding flexibility - I have been looking for real world information.

 I will use the #3 3Di Dacron for the rest of the year and see if it gets better.   

 

I am not clear on the J88 comment - so the "Stock" 3di race sails are not good - right?

Thanks again for the comments.

 

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7 hours ago, allene222 said:

I am very happy with my new Flex-Ultra main.  It is a cross cut material with spectra strings.  Cheaper than any quote that had tri-radial.  Nice cloth.

Ok will check it out - still leaning 3di - maybe 2 new Flex Ultra's for the cost of one 3di

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5 hours ago, Lucky Dog said:

Thanks for the information regarding flexibility - I have been looking for real world information.

 I will use the #3 3Di Dacron for the rest of the year and see if it gets better.   

 

I am not clear on the J88 comment - so the "Stock" 3di race sails are not good - right?

Thanks again for the comments.

 

North trialled 3di Race which was aimed at the club race sub 40ft market which was based around 760 material. This product was about 30% cheaper than the raw sails hence why every other boat in the fleet bought them. However after a few races some boats found the sails were stretching out of shape and a couple of boats had holes appearing in the mainsail in the same place. Since then a couple of boats have chosen to explore 3di endurance or choosing an alternate sailmaker

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20 minutes ago, JL92S said:

North trialled 3di Race which was aimed at the club race sub 40ft market which was based around 760 material. This product was about 30% cheaper than the raw sails hence why every other boat in the fleet bought them. However after a few races some boats found the sails were stretching out of shape and a couple of boats had holes appearing in the mainsail in the same place. Since then a couple of boats have chosen to explore 3di endurance or choosing an alternate sailmaker

well that is interesting - now it clear to me.

What are your thought on reefing using the 780 endurance?   I really want to have the option to actually use a reef for a short period without destroying my mainsail.

 

 

 

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A few weeks ago we completed the near 2000nm round Britain and Ireland race and we spent half the race with either one or two reefs in up to 45kts of wind and the main is as good as it was at the start of the race.

Just one small thing is our endurance main is coloured black, the outer protective layer of endurance is made of polyester 3di tapes (Nordac) and can be coloured either white, grey or black. After reefing and generally handling the main the black dyed outer layer has worn a little (where the main has sat on the shrouds for example). To match your Nordac jobs I would advise getting the sail in white or grey and avoiding the decolouring.

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I have always liked North Sails and used serveral other sailmakers but always seem to come back to North. Since you are buying about 6 months out, don't forget discounts that are usually available at the end of the year and the week of boat shows in your area.

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On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:35 PM, JL92S said:

A few weeks ago we completed the near 2000nm round Britain and Ireland race and we spent half the race with either one or two reefs in up to 45kts of wind and the main is as good as it was at the start of the race.

Just one small thing is our endurance main is coloured black, the outer protective layer of endurance is made of polyester 3di tapes (Nordac) and can be coloured either white, grey or black. After reefing and generally handling the main the black dyed outer layer has worn a little (where the main has sat on the shrouds for example). To match your Nordac jobs I would advise getting the sail in white or grey and avoiding the decolouring.

Thanks again for the real world feed back.   I have made my own and bought other sails than North - I too keep going back.  Perhaps its the marketing along with the product.

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Well I just got a quote on a 780 endurance sail from north and lets just say it was quite the shock  - about twice what I was thinking.

No way would I pay that much for a sail.  So I asked for the Nordac quote - not holding my breath for it to be much lower.

I could by a Prosail plotter and most likely build my own disposable main for the cost quoted. 

                        The wife and I have some thinking to do.

Now looking at Patterson, Doyle and Quantum - any one else I should get a quote from?

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What was the quote, and what do you hope/expect a 40.7 main to cost?

 

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On 9/4/2018 at 5:18 PM, tomtriad said:

If you can sort out your backstay geometry, you will find a fathead main will greatly increase your performance - I get 10% more top end speed with mine. Of course you will need full battens. Doyle made me a fathead main using DP Flex24 cloth - it saved about half the $ of a spectra laminate. Flex has 5 axes of polyester filaments laminated between polyester scrims; this allows for very efficient build as it's a panel cut sail that does not need tri radial construction in the corners. It has held up well for 5 years of intensive year 'round use. I would recommend the material even if you decide against a fathead design.

That's quite a claim

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On 10/1/2018 at 9:53 AM, Lucky Dog said:

Well I just got a quote on a 780 endurance sail from north and lets just say it was quite the shock  - about twice what I was thinking.

No way would I pay that much for a sail.  So I asked for the Nordac quote - not holding my breath for it to be much lower.

I could by a Prosail plotter and most likely build my own disposable main for the cost quoted. 

                        The wife and I have some thinking to do.

Now looking at Patterson, Doyle and Quantum - any one else I should get a quote from?

Ullman Sails Detroit

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Personally i’ve been very happy with Doyle sails from the Detroit loft.  However North bought that loft a couple years ago and I will probably move to a different Doyle loft when I need new sails.

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 I got quotes for 3DI Nordac thought they were reasonable for a 32 ft boat. 

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49 minutes ago, Gracious said:

 I got quotes for 3DI Nordac thought they were reasonable for a 32 ft boat. 

I am in the process of getting the 3di nordiac quote.  I hope its more reasonable.

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I’m not US based but I wouldn’t expect the 3di endurance quote to be in the $14-15k area?

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1 minute ago, JL92S said:

I’m not US based but I wouldn’t expect the 3di endurance quote to be in the $14-15k area?

Yes you are in the ball park a little higher.

does anyone else think this cost is a little high?  its not a all carbon - its a little carbon with a newer process.   Are you paying for manufacturing costs or material costs?  

Yes the sail will last longer - I could purchase 4 mainsails made with laminates for that cost.  Anyway still like the 3di concept looking at lower my expectations to a nordac.  However I am going to get laminate quotes to see delta's.

 

 

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Geez do ya really think all the National Advertising is cheap, what do you guys think a multi issue full page ad costs in only one magazine costs or a web banner ad like the exact one at the top of SA??

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If your not in a hurry Ullman usually has a 30% I think it is off sale for spring delivery over the winter.

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We’ve been using a 3DI Nordac main on our Frers 33 this year. Mixed racing and light cruising. Pretty happy so far.

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6 hours ago, Grizz said:

We’ve been using a 3DI Nordac main on our Frers 33 this year. Mixed racing and light cruising. Pretty happy so far.

And price in relation to standard crosscut?  Just curious, have heard widely differing costs.

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I have heard that the 3di Nordac for my boat will be very stiff (its 40 ft) and difficult to put in the boom cover as I sail mostly with lazy jacks and with one of those zip up mainsail covers.  My original Dacron sail (13 years old) has tendencies to not fall in between the lazy jacks.  I can only guess a much stiffer sail will be impossible.  I have no idea regarding the cross cut I would guess its twice as expensive.

The Endurance would flake nicely I am told.  But its ~ twice the cost so I am thinking of trying someone other than North.  Of not buying at all.

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15 minutes ago, Lucky Dog said:

I have heard that the 3di Nordac for my boat will be very stiff (its 40 ft) and difficult to put in the boom cover as I sail mostly with lazy jacks and with one of those zip up mainsail covers.  My original Dacron sail (13 years old) has tendencies to not fall in between the lazy jacks.  I can only guess a much stiffer sail will be impossible.  I have no idea regarding the cross cut I would guess its twice as expensive.

The Endurance would flake nicely I am told.  But its ~ twice the cost so I am thinking of trying someone other than North.  Of not buying at all.

Someone who tells you that endirance will flake better is telling you nonsense. I’m starting to think that your mainsail bag is too small if you can’t always fit your 13 year old main into it...

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Hmmm - I might have not been very clear .  something my kids tell me all the time :)

the main fits in very nicly - it gets caught on the lazy jacks coming down due to its stiffness.  in contrast my 3DL mainsail comes down at least 3 times as quickly and I never have to stuff it in the zipper bag. I just zip the bag up.

 I am assuming its because the 3DL is very flexible  and the old (great condition

but not sailing shape) Dacron mainsail is stiff.

could be wrong.

BTW 3DL died in a race last year - such expensive crap.

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I have lazy jacks on the Frers, and have had no problem. My mainsail cover fits the 3DI Nordac as well. Yes, it’s stiff. IIRC, the list price was approximately 20-25% higher than crosscut Dacron.

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In fairness, the 3DI Nordac was a real PITA to flake for the first few weeks- it eventually got “trained” and the flakes now fall naturally. Lucky Dog, I’m thinking it will always be much stiffer than 3DL.

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I find it funny that a primary consideration of a sail purchase seems to be how easy it is to take down and put the cover on.

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On 11/1/2018 at 3:55 AM, Sal Minella said:

And price in relation to standard crosscut?  Just curious, have heard widely differing costs.

At the boatshow, I was told about 20% more than a Radian Mainsail...

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3 hours ago, A3A said:

I find it funny that a primary consideration of a sail purchase seems to be how easy it is to take down and put the cover on.

hmm - its one of the considerations.  Considerations more of less In this order,

Shape - must be made by established sailmaker - this also means when a puff hits does it lose it shape.  My 3dl moved quite a bit.  Dacron main - well lets say its bad.

shape holding - i.e. how long does it last?  3di sails are really good.  

Cost.

Usability - your comment.  I sail with 2 on a 40 ft boat  use lazy jacks and a zip up cover.  Why would anyone spend 12K on a sail and find out it does not flake on the boom.  Why would that not be a consideration?

 

 

Anyway - I have a racy boat with racing 3di Nordac's on it.  

Thanks for the comment.

 

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

At the boatshow, I was told about 20% more than a Radian Mainsail...

7K to 15K all are molded sails from various sailmakers.  Or at least that is what they say - I know North is molded.

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For what you are doing, a well designed GPL radial sail will be most economical, durable and with good handling. Weight would be lighter than anything but the doyle or north raw.

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On 11/2/2018 at 5:32 PM, A3A said:

I find it funny that a primary consideration of a sail purchase seems to be how easy it is to take down and put the cover on.

Even though I find it terrible to punch a bunch of holes in a new sail, a Dutchman system might be better for most people than lazy jacks. 

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Lucky; just got a 3di dacron for new main, and am impressed.  halyard tension is critical.  This replaced a 4yo 3DL carbon main that got a lot of use.  I have a carbon 3DL #1 and a carbon 3DI #3 - it is awwesome over 14kts.. all from North.

 

Boat is a 36.7 and we just added a flicker which has helped a lot in gybing..

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22 hours ago, Bruce T. Shark said:

Lucky; just got a 3di dacron for new main, and am impressed.  halyard tension is critical.  This replaced a 4yo 3DL carbon main that got a lot of use.  I have a carbon 3DL #1 and a carbon 3DI #3 - it is awwesome over 14kts.. all from North.

 

Boat is a 36.7 and we just added a flicker which has helped a lot in gybing..

How is the fold ability or stiffness of the 3Di dacron mainsail?  I would expect it to be stiffer - just wondering how much.

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Lucky,

I deal with a lot of rating optimizations and what you are doing will most likely kill your phrf rating.  Phrf Detroit doesn't list the rating adjustments for fat head mains on its site which means they will knock you pretty hard for going to one and could potentially not give you credit for dropping the #1.  PHRF likes stock boats because they're easier to rate based off observed performance.

 

If however your go is to win in ORR, the rating rule is more adapt at handling the changes.  Square tops do well in the Great Lakes because the cold water creates less wind down low and more wind aloft.  In ORR if you decide to drop the #1 I highly recommend switching to asymmetrical spinnakers to carry a code zero or else you are really going to struggle in the light air.  The 40.7 needs horse power.

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We roll it and it is stiff..start at just about the 2nd draft stripe (marked fold here bitch). It needs halyard tension too..

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On 9/8/2018 at 7:42 AM, Lucky Dog said:

 

However - on my current dacron 3Di sails they are very thick and stiff.  I am not sure I could easily with the wife tame this with the lazy jacks.  FYI until the 3DL blew up this sail was the best for lazy jacks - it fell down perfectly with out any human touching the sail - go figure. (you had to compress the front by mast to get cover on).

We have 3Di Endurance 760 on our J109.  Mostly double hand with better half/better sailor wife and a lazy jack system.  It is nowhere near as easy to flake and put away as a full batten bed sheet decron sail but VERY doable particularly with lazy jacks.  We do not have full battens on our 3D1 Endurance sail but I suspect this would help easy handling.

 

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Trirradial fully-battened loose-footed high roach (but no square top) in your material of choice.

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1 hour ago, Epi-sailor said:

 

Thanks for the feedback - the 3di endurance is what my sail-maker offered at 1st.  Once I balked at the price (~13K) they suggested that I go with Nordac 3Di but when I asked about the "hand" or fold ability I was told it would get softer over time.  As my #3 is like folding soft wood I am concerned.  

Yes its weird that I actually care about the sails" hand".  

I am waiting on purchase until next spring due to the general state of things.  Thanks for the comments on the 3Di endurance - maybe I will go up in cost - :(

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12 hours ago, Trovão said:

Trirradial fully-battened loose-footed high roach (but no square top) in your material of choice.

Why fully battened? Not fun in light winds and weighs a ton decreasing stability.

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2 minutes ago, Nubben said:

Why fully battened? Not fun in light winds and weighs a ton decreasing stability.

i agree about light air, but afaik this shouldn't be a problem in detroit.

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On 11/16/2018 at 5:28 PM, xyzzy said:

If you wouldn't mind, what's a 3di main for a 27 footer run?

I got a 3di raw 760 for around $5k for a 32'er.

Also, I've gotten service and attention like I have never gotten from any other sailmaker, despite my less-than-grand-prix budget.

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On 11/10/2018 at 1:14 AM, Itsabimmerthing said:

Time will tell if I made right choice.

 

Totally agree - All sail makers/retailers have their dog and pony but the longevity, durability pitch from North re 3Di endurance convinced us and to be clear this is a big part of what North is selling with these products but time will tell.   

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Bumping up this thread, its been a year any updates from the previous posters after a season of use on the 3DI Nordac ?   Thinking about choosing it for my F-28R.

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25 minutes ago, chuck_SA said:

Bumping up this thread, its been a year any updates from the previous posters after a season of use on the 3DI Nordac ?   Thinking about choosing it for my F-28R.

No no no a polyester sail for a square top is a disaster.  Whoever suggested a polyester sail for a square top should be tarred feathered and ran out of town.

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Bad Andy, what is it about a square top which makes using polyester a disaster or more of a disaster than polyester vs laminate of choice in a pin head or big roach main?

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4 hours ago, chuck_SA said:

Bad Andy, what is it about a square top which makes using polyester a disaster or more of a disaster than polyester vs laminate of choice in a pin head or big roach main?

I suspect (given the links in his post) that he likes evolution sails which are laminates (DP)....I used Dacron on my F242 for a season....heavy and stretched...so I went back to a laminate.  

Cutter Reach 2009.jpg

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I actually think the nordac is one of the slicker 3di products, but it's not up to the task for a square top in the multi, too much stretch.  Stick with a load path sail but put some carbon in it, if you're going 3di ask for a product line starting in a 8 for a primarily carbon sail.  Nothing else beats a shit ton of carbon in a sail at the moment.

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The proto mini 945 just won leg 1 of the mini transat and it’s using 3di Nordac for their upwind sails, big square top main on that boat

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Minis are required to use polyester for their Mainsail, the minute you allow carbon none, you'll never see another polyester Mainsail.  

Look the difference is minimal on day 1, other than weight polyester sails will have similar shape to a higher tech sail.  The difference is on day 100 the polyester will be bagged out.  By this time the top end mini proto  will have a new mainsail, but the club racer won't.  That's where there's a huge value in using a better material.

 

 

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Hey good thing this topic started back up.  I have ordered a 3di Endurance mainsail.

I am wondering about the carbon comments - I thought that a 3Di endurance has carbon content -  

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6 minutes ago, Lucky Dog said:

Hey good thing this topic started back up.  I have ordered a 3di Endurance mainsail.

I am wondering about the carbon comments - I thought that a 3Di endurance has carbon content -  

Not all 3di sails are made the same, check the 3 digit number that they use to designate the sail (like 360).  If it doesn't start with an 8 than the primary fiber is not carbon.  The endurance is either 760 or 780 meaning the primary fiber is dyneema and the secondary fiber is Aramid (760) or Carbon (780).  They never tell you what % the secondary fiber has but it's believe to be in the 10% range.  I would expect the endurance line to be in the ball park of a Hydranet sail in shape retention and weight, about the same in durability.

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Agree with Bad Andy, the 3di nordac is a cash cow for north - lets make a fancy sail out of 100% cheap polyester. A bit like the Carbon sport ( polyester with carbon ribbons in one direction ) or Tape drive where it is all polyester, with carbon tapes. Even on small boats there are big benefits to going 100% exotic fibers, but it costs. 

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9 hours ago, Bad Andy said:

I actually think the nordac is one of the slicker 3di products, but it's not up to the task for a square top in the multi, too much stretch.  Stick with a load path sail but put some carbon in it, if you're going 3di ask for a product line starting in a 8 for a primarily carbon sail.  Nothing else beats a shit ton of carbon in a sail at the moment.

Totally Agree. Fat Head Mains need the lowest stretch possible as they require more cunno loads to control the head and leech tension.

Just had Ullman NB make a new main and Light/Med #1 both in Carbon GPL laminate.

IMG_2444.thumb.JPG.65acdab270c9b476261f9d5c5dc55961.JPG

 

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