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sledracr

Bilge hoses

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Looks like the Fall project is going to be replacing old hoses - electric bilge pump, manual bilge pump and 4 cockpit scuppers (2 of which drain to a below-waterline thru-hull).

What's in place right now is wire-reinforced corrugated hose.  I'm hoping to use something smooth inside and out, both to make it easier to pull through the structures, and for better flow.

Any particular types of hose I should look at?  I don't care if it is a little spendy, I don't plan to do this again for a few years.

I'd really like to use something like nylon-reinforced clear tubing, but I don't think there are any available that are rated for below-the-waterline use.  Open to ideas.

_/)_

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If money is no object, go with the black, wire-reinforced Trident stuff from Fisheries. It'll last forever.

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Probably the same stuff Streamer referenced but if you have the right sized fittings, automotive heater hose works great - reinforced for hot and pressurized so no problem for a bilge pump.

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I think they probably are the same thing. Here's the link to the stuff I was talking about:

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/trident-marine-series-250-100-trident-flex-wired-wet-exhaust-and-water-hose

Description is as follows:

Reinforced marine hose for longer runs and bent connections. Designed for engine intake, bilge discharge, toilet and holding tank connections and scupper lines. Also for marine wet exhaust where connection requires a long length (greater than four times the inside diameter) or the connection requires a significant bend. 

• Heavy wall construction reinforced with wire helix imbedded between two tough synthetic spiral cord plies 
• Extremely durable EPDM synthetic rubber liner tube and cover (ethylene propylene diene monomer) 
• Construction allows excellent flexibility, bend radius, resists panting and collapsing 
• Resists heat, ozone, exhaust, and sani chemicals 
• Max. temperature: 250°F (120°C) 
• Recommend double clamp and sealing compound for below water line connections 
• Exceeds these standards for type certified wet exhaust hose: SAE J2006-R2, and ABYC & NMMA P-1 exhaust standards; Lloyd's Registry Type Approved Certified 02/00029 
• 5 year limited warranty 
• Black with blue stripe 
• Sold by the foot or coil length

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Because its smooth outer wall will be easy to pull through conduits and bulkheads?

Because its smooth inner wall will maximize flow?

Because it'll tolerate exposure to any chemical that'll ever wind up in your bilge?

Because you could drop something heavy on it, step on it, accidentally wedge it in some corner belowdecks and it'll never collapse?

Because you can chafe it for years without wearing through it?

Because it won't puncture with anything short of a hacksaw?

Because its weight will for the most part be as low in the boat as you can possibly get while still being in the boat?

EDIT: turns out it has a tighter bend radius and is lighter than premium vinyl bilge hose despite its better performance. Go figure.

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Ok..

But I think it depends on the size.  If you are talking 1/2 or 3/4" I'd recommend the clear reinforced vinyl just for that reason, it is clear and inspectable.  It is nice to see low spots or crud building up inside the hose and relatively cheap.  I do use exhaust hose for the scuppers (1.24-2").  It is generally the highest quality toughest hose you can buy.  Ever run a blade accidentally across the marine head vinyl stuff? cuts better than butter...  The exhaust stuff will hardly show a mark.   The clear vinyl is actually pretty tough too. The cheap plastic bilge hoses are suitable for air ventilation maybe.. 

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Because its smooth outer wall will be easy to pull through conduits and bulkheads? Is installation pain really a consideration for something replaced once every 10-20 years?

Because its smooth inner wall will maximize flow? Any good bilge hose has a smooth inner wall; none maximizes flow, they only minimize resistance to flow.

Because it'll tolerate exposure to any chemical that'll ever wind up in your bilge? Can you cite any relevant differences in the chemical susceptibility of synthetic rubber and plastics?

Because you could drop something heavy on it, step on it, accidentally wedge it in some corner belowdecks and it'll never collapse? The crush force of reinforced plastic bilge hoses is substantial, this doesn't seem to be a real consideration; certainly you'd not recommend pipe.

Because you can chafe it for years without wearing through it? The chafe resistance of reinforced plastic bilge hose is substantial, this doesn't seem to be a real consideration; certainly you'd not recommend pipe.

Because it won't puncture with anything short of a hacksaw? The puncture resistance of reinforced plastic bilge hose is substantial, this doesn't seem to be a real consideration; certainly you'd not recommend pipe.

Because its weight will for the most part be as low in the boat as you can possibly get while still being in the boat? With the exception of ballast, weight is the enemy of performance irrespective of the location.

EDIT: turns out it has a tighter bend radius and is lighter than premium vinyl bilge hose despite its better performance. Go figure. Not my experience. What products did you compare and where did you find specifications citing weights?

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OK, so if I search for "trident bilge hose" on fisheries, I get 4 choices:

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/sitesearch.aspx?N=4294967100+14178+4294964625&Nrpp=40&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"A_Item_ID"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"allpartial")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"B_Sku"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_Manufacturer_Part_Number"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"allpartial")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"D_Previous_Item_ID"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"E_OEM_Cross_Reference"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"F_Barcode"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+P_InStock%3D"Y"+or+(+P_IsOrphan%3D0+and+P_IsDiscontinued%3D0)]&Ntk=All&Ntt=trident+hose&ct=4294967100&keyword=trident+hose

..three are corrugated, one is clear/wire-reinforced (which I'd lean towards, and says it is bilge-rated.... but doesn't say it is rated for below the waterline.  10 bucks a foot in 1-1/2"

If I search for Trident non-corrugated wet-exhaust hose, I get 5 choices:

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/sitesearch.aspx?N=4294967100+14178+4294965094+15114&Nrpp=40&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"A_Item_ID"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"allpartial")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"B_Sku"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_Manufacturer_Part_Number"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"allpartial")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"D_Previous_Item_ID"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"E_OEM_Cross_Reference"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"F_Barcode"%2C"trident+hose"%2C"all")+or+P_InStock%3D"Y"+or+(+P_IsOrphan%3D0+and+P_IsDiscontinued%3D0)]&Ntk=All&Ntt=trident+hose&ct=4294967100&keyword=trident+hose

...the 100/250 that iStream linked is about 12 bucks a foot (1-1/2"), the 110/200 soft-wall is about the same $$, the Ocean Flex is about $24/foot.

I guess at this point I'd broaden the question to - what should I look for in below-the-waterline bilge hose?

Obviously durability, abrasion resistant, fuel/chemical resistant.  I don't think I need heat-resistant.  I want to *know* it is good for below-the-waterline use.  I want it to be reinforced sufficiently to hold up to suction.  I'd prefer it to be smooth-wall, inside and out.  What else should I care about?  I had (?) thought that having clear hose would be a bonus (be able to see detritus/blockages), but that's pretty low on the priority list compared to the other aspects.

??

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

 Is installation pain really a consideration for something replaced once every 10-20 years?

In my case, yes.  My boat (Ericson 32-3) is built around a monocoque "force grid" bonded throughout the entire bilge area, and I only have access through holes in the grid.  My guess is that the current hose was put in place when the grid was put in, so... it's not going to be fun to get the old hose out and new hose in.

So, yeah, I need something that I can pull through tight spaces and small holes where the builder chose the routing.  I can't just lay it in the bilge and connect up the ends.

 

_/)_

 

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Sled,

What is the bilge pump you're using that needs 1.5" hose? A rule 3700 is 1.5", but that's very, very large for a 32' boat.

I really believe you're overly concerned about hose with corrugated outer wall. I believe that if you splice the new to the old and pull it through, it will work fine.

I also don't understand your "below the water line" concerns, can you explain? The bilge pump hose must have a siphon break or back flow preventer and this should address any real concern. I can't find any specification for what makes a hose "below the water line", it seems to be manufacturer's marketing speak for reinforced hose. There's nothing I can find in ABYC, GL or RINA, but I'll dig more tomorrow.

 

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Manual bilge pump currently has 34-year-old 1-1/2" corrugated hose in the bilge, going through a Gusher Titan (1-1/2" connectors) to a thru-hull under the stern counter - above the waterline at rest, well underwater in the quarter-wave when heeled.

The two outboard cockpit scuppers go to 1-1/2" thru-hulls under the stern counter - underwater when heeled.

The other two cockpit scuppers go through a y-connector to a 1-1/2" thru-hull under the galley sink - always underwater.  A friend's boat nearly sank at the dock last year when exactly that hose failed at the connection to the thru-hull.  I'd rather not replicate that experience.

Current electric bilge pump has cheap-shit 3/4" corrugated plastic hose from a Rule centrifugal sitting in one of the "pockets" in the grid, outflow hose runs aft and uphill to a small thru-hull under the stern counter.  Functionally useless, because the pump sits on top of the keel bolts so there has to be about 6" of water in the bilge before it kicks in.  Plus, because the pump is at the low end of the run the whole hose-full of water backdrains into the bilge when the pump cuts off.  Plus, because that thru-hull is underwater at speed, water seems to find its way backwards into the boat (centrifugals don't prevent back-flow).

So as part of this project, I'm thinking (?) of re-plumbing that whole system, ditching the centrifugal and putting a self-priming diaphragm pump in a convenient empty space in the aft lazarette; could get more water out with a good strum-box lower in the bilge, plus no back-flow (a diaphragm pump is an effective check-valve, plus a water-witch automatic switch should keep the pump running until the hose is dry before cutting off).

All of that is early thinking and open to suggestions.  This is not an area of expertise for me.

$.02

 

 

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I... don't race, but yeah, it's something I care about.  As far as I know, every 80s-era Ericson has that configuration.

I'm generally hinky about thru-hull connections anyway.  Plus, food for thought....

993166692_TerraNova20as20found20.jpg.972344f84f0fd5198c6abbb729d1bbe1.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Moonduster said:

The scuppers-to-Y-to-sink-drain is not compliant with the OSR. Do you race? Do you care?

I just checked my (admittedly out-of-date) copy of the OSR... I see that you can't have bilge-pumps discharge into scuppers, but didn't see anything about a scupper-to-Y-to-thru-hull configuration being non-compliant. 

The stock configuration is that the two inboard scuppers go to a Y, then to a thru-hull with a seacock under the sink.  No common line with any bilge-pump discharge (or any other system - there are four separate thru-hulls under the sink, each with sea-cocks: the sink-drain, the scupper outflow, the engine raw-water intake, and the inlet for a salt-water foot pump.)

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Instead of Trident, look at Greenline hose.  Especially in the type being discussed here(they sell as Wonderflex IIRC) it is MUCH cheaper.  In fact if you go to many marine retail shops they often have Greenline hose stuck in trident boxes. :lol:

I like the clear Extra Heavy Duty black or white spiral clear hose. 

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/trident-marine-series-147-extra-heavy-duty-bilge-and-livewell-hose

It takes bends better than the white vinyl sani hose or the clear stuff with the braid in it.  You can see a problem quickly.  Smooth inner smooth outer.  If you have tight radius spots, then the wonderflex is the ticket, with the trade off of price and not being able to see through it.   Also, if you have any borderline bends where you don't want to go to Wonderflex, a stainless Unicoil will support it long term and avoid kinks, you can preform the bend with the formable strip down one side as well.  This helps avoid the splits that hydronic heater seem to get in heater hose on bends as well.  

 

 

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