Strategery

Masthead vs Frac Assym

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Just bought a Ross930 and looking to hit turbo. Masthead assym (will require rig mods) with moderate prod OR Frac assym (no mast mod required) with long prod? 

Thinking the frac assy with long pole could be quicker. 

Thoughts? 

 

 

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In general, short wide sails are slower than tall skinny sails of the same area......

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5 minutes ago, A3A said:

In general, short wide sails are slower than tall skinny sails of the same area......

I recall back in the day that Ultimate 30's went better with frac assym on longer pole than mastheads. Different horses?

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There's heaps of turbo ones around here, I think they are all set up for mh. From memory a few of them moved their masts back. 

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41 minutes ago, A3A said:

In general, short wide sails are slower than tall skinny sails of the same area......

Yes IF you have the righting moment needed

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5 hours ago, Strategery said:

Just bought a Ross930 and looking to hit turbo. Masthead assym (will require rig mods) with moderate prod OR Frac assym (no mast mod required) with long prod? 

Thinking the frac assy with long pole could be quicker. 

Thoughts? 

 

 

Strategery,

 

It all depends what type of Sailing your doing ?

 

e.g Wide open water light to moderate breeze and mostly runnng then a mast head all the way to go. 

Tight reaching in a narrow Channel in a 10 knots or more then fractional is a better option. 

 

I sail on the boardwater  in a narrow channel on the Gold Coast and so offern a Boat with a mast head asso or kites are on there side  when reaching in anything over 10 knots and Sailing slow when a fractional would of been a better choice. 

 

So if it was up to me, I’d go a fractional kite medium length pole to start with and add a mast head later and pay the dollars and get the kite build for your boat. This way if you go to a mast head kite at a later date you will not having to re set up the boat. Talk to your sail maker 

 

If you end up going a mast head kite, then I’d still go a medium length pole and still get a kite designed and made to fit the boat. Don’t think a second hand kite off another boat will work on your boat and be as fast as a kite build for your boat. Talk to your sail maker.

 

pulpit 

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10 hours ago, Strategery said:

I recall back in the day that Ultimate 30's went better with frac assym on longer pole than mastheads. Different horses?

Nope, we found out early that masthead kites were not only faster, but easier to handle due to lower apparent wind speeds. 

BTW, I still have a frac ultimate kite, barely used if anyone is interested.

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Back in the 70's a friend decided to get a Cavaliar 32 half ton yacht.  They were a production boat with masthead rig.

My friend had Bruce Farr design a fractional rig that complied with the half ton rule and it totally out classed the Cavaliers.

I sailed a couple of races on it and the mainsail looked twice the size of the standard version.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_Yachts

 

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I think talking to someone with a vpp program to determine what is fastest for local racing conditions is a worthwhile exercise. You could get an ORC cert and try to use the ORC  vpp yourself. 

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1 hour ago, torinv said:

Wouldn't apparent wind speed be higher if the masthead was faster?

Not when you're going downwind.

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2 minutes ago, See Level said:

Not when you're going downwind.

If you go fast enough downwind, it will be higher, on something planing or foiling.

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1 hour ago, torinv said:

If you go fast enough downwind, it will be higher, on something planing or foiling.

lets not get into the sailing DDW faster than the wind speed  ;-)

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As Irish said, this is a question where facts, not opinions, will yield the best answer. You need to consult naval architect and/or sail designer and be prepared with budget, wind range and leg length information to figure out which approach is going to be a winner.

 

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My humble grattitude for all your input. Will be reaching out to the sailmaker. We have light airs here usually, and not a ton of reaching, but occasionally do on our mini distance races. 

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Just look to Farr40s - Masthead F40 are faster and rate faster than a standard rig. We live in a light moderate area, and no one races fractional for anything.

For offshore, sprit boats use MH up say 25kts and then they move to fractional which are more stable and faster.

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On 9/6/2018 at 1:30 PM, Strategery said:

Just bought a Ross930 and looking to hit turbo. Masthead assym (will require rig mods) with moderate prod OR Frac assym (no mast mod required) with long prod? 

Thinking the frac assy with long pole could be quicker. 

Thoughts? 

 

 

I have run this program from start to finish on a 930 over a few years recently. Started with Jumpers and Masthead Spin - probably biggest gains for buck. Added retractable prod (2m from Stem) with fractional genny. this was a very versatile sail. Added MH genny, quickly needed keel job. Mast did not need mods until I added MH Code0. These are fucking great boats, you'll love getting her out in a blow/waves with fractional genny. We've seen over 20knots on the speedo well under control.

PM me if you want greater detail. I can email drawings/specs

Cheers

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On 9/6/2018 at 7:55 AM, A3A said:

In general, short wide sails are slower than tall skinny sails of the same area......

That's true only for upwind sailing or close to it and is mostly due to induced drag. Downwind sailing it is the other way around and drag becomes your friend when AWA>90, but compensated by vertical wind profile giving higher wind speed at higher location. Usually having masthead kite means bigger area, but OP defined masthead to have a shorter prod. With about equal area the question is far from a straight forward answer.

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On 9/14/2018 at 6:00 PM, partytown said:

I have run this program from start to finish on a 930 over a few years recently. Started with Jumpers and Masthead Spin - probably biggest gains for buck. Added retractable prod (2m from Stem) with fractional genny. this was a very versatile sail. Added MH genny, quickly needed keel job. Mast did not need mods until I added MH Code0. These are fucking great boats, you'll love getting her out in a blow/waves with fractional genny. We've seen over 20knots on the speedo well under control.

PM me if you want greater detail. I can email drawings/specs

Cheers

Thx for this! Will PM you, grateful for the wisdom! Any 30'er that can plane while simultaneously having a lady crew able to be comfortable in a private head with a door is a boat that I want to own. Fun is Fast is Fun! 

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