Snore

To the Spineless Twit who Wrote NYT Op Ed

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I am making this post as a “letter” as it seemed the easiest way to start the conversation of “is the NYT OpEd good or the county?” And is there a better way for this person to reach the same goal?  

                                                                                          

Dear Spineless,

I will begin by agreeing that Donny’s actions are not always right, and sometimes they do not appear to be intelligent.  But the economy is doing well, unemployment is down, and our military is doing well.  That said, like many, Donny worries me sometimes!   

Bottom line is - like it or not-  he is the duly elected President of the United States.

Your anonymous NYT Op Ed piece was deeply troubling.  Your article claims there are people in the White House who willingly conspire to thwart the actions of the duly elected president.   How is that not treason?  If you are brazen enough to subvert the government, why not man-up and sign the piece?

I expect to read about subversion of a presidency in third world countries.  But, it should be happened get here  in the United States!  And for someone to have the guile to brag about it?!?  Let’s face it, what good does your Op Ed piece do beyond feed your ego?

Knowing that one day, we might be in this predicament, The Constitution allows for the removal of a president under the 25th Amndment or via impeachment.  Beyond that, Mr. Mueller would gladly provide support if there was grounds.

So there are legal remedies to your perceived predicament— if there is cause.  But you appear to lack the fortitude or the grounds to move forward legally.  Instead, you subvert the presidency from within under the guise of protecting the country.  

These actions, if done covertly would be despicable and perhaps treasonous.  But when you choose to publish them, with no apparent goal beyond your ego, they destabilize the country you purport to try to save.  These actions make us appear weaker on the stage of international politics.  Instead if America being the greatest example of a stable country where we all move forward after an election- our country looks like a cheese third world country in. B-movie.

 

FFS bitch step out from the shadows!

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I think the world needs more whistle blowers. Swamp draining 101.

 

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2 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

I think the world needs more whistle blowers. Swamp draining 101.

 

Blew whistle on what? What actionable information was given?

 

Whistle blowers sign thier name.

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I agree with OP in general. This, and Woodward's revelations, go way beyond whistle blowing. Senior WH officials are doing what they think best to counteract the threat posed by Trump (and it is much worse than Snore suggests). This is at best unethical and may be illegal. What these folks should do (or have done) is resign en masse and hold a joint news conference to air their concerns. 

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20 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I agree with OP in general. This, and Woodward's revelations, go way beyond whistle blowing. Senior WH officials are doing what they think best to counteract the threat posed by Trump (and it is much worse than Snore suggests). This is at best unethical and may be illegal. What these folks should do (or have done) is resign en masse and hold a joint news conference to air their concerns. 

then he'd fire em all and he'd be alone in the WH with the footy guy 

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Yes to all. 

There are mechanisms in our government and our Constitution to deal with problematic leaders. Subterfuge and usurping the role of our elected leaders are not among them. 

We have a Constitutional Crisis since there appears to be a cabal of concerned aides, advisors and appointed officials who believe the president is impaired in his faculties or unfit for office, yet are unwilling to utilize the 25th Amendment to remedy the situation. Taking matters into their hands is only effective as a temporizing basis, as it is fundamentally illegal and destabilizing.

Our president has lost control of his administration. Our government is rudderless, incapable of steering a proper course. We have no coherent foreign policy, our trade policy appears to be choices made according to the whims of an ignorant, irrational, inconstant and untrustworthy megalomaniac. He wishes to rule by edict, to not be constrained by laws or traditions, and to make revenge federal policy.

This administration needs to avail itself of its legal obligations in order to protect the country. The president is giving a master class in maladministration and we need to rectify the situation.

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52 minutes ago, Snore said:

Instead if America being the greatest example of a stable country where we all move forward after an election- our country looks like a cheese third world country in. B-movie.

 

FFS bitch step out from the shadows!

That's exactly what it looks like from where I'm sitting.

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sort of like a hostage situation..but I'm not sure who are the hostages and who's the kidnapper.

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57 minutes ago, Snore said:

I am making this post as a “letter” as it seemed the easiest way to start the conversation of “is the NYT OpEd good or the county?” And is there a better way for this person to reach the same goal?  

                                                                                          

Dear Spineless,

I will begin by agreeing that Donny’s actions are not always right, and sometimes they do not appear to be intelligent.  But the economy is doing well, unemployment is down, and our military is doing well.  That said, like many, Donny worries me sometimes!   

Bottom line is - like it or not-  he is the duly elected President of the United States.

Your anonymous NYT Op Ed piece was deeply troubling.  Your article claims there are people in the White House who willingly conspire to thwart the actions of the duly elected president.   How is that not treason?  If you are brazen enough to subvert the government, why not man-up and sign the piece?

I expect to read about subversion of a presidency in third world countries.  But, it should be happened get here  in the United States!  And for someone to have the guile to brag about it?!?  Let’s face it, what good does your Op Ed piece do beyond feed your ego?

Knowing that one day, we might be in this predicament, The Constitution allows for the removal of a president under the 25th Amndment or via impeachment.  Beyond that, Mr. Mueller would gladly provide support if there was grounds.

So there are legal remedies to your perceived predicament— if there is cause.  But you appear to lack the fortitude or the grounds to move forward legally.  Instead, you subvert the presidency from within under the guise of protecting the country.  

These actions, if done covertly would be despicable and perhaps treasonous.  But when you choose to publish them, with no apparent goal beyond your ego, they destabilize the country you purport to try to save.  These actions make us appear weaker on the stage of international politics.  Instead if America being the greatest example of a stable country where we all move forward after an election- our country looks like a cheese third world country in. B-movie.

 

FFS bitch step out from the shadows!

I was going to disagree - but I realized I don't all that much.

OF COURSE the staff should ignore crazy orders from the crazy president, we don't need to invade Nambia :rolleyes: That is the short term solution to prevent a disaster today. That is NOT how to run the country. They all seem collectively frozen in place because they ...Just .......Can't.........Imagine....... getting rid of a Republican president that will sign almost anything at all they put in front of him. Man the FUCK UP and 25th this douchebag while we still have a country you spineless twits!

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Spineless? That would be all the fuckers that don't give 2 shits about the country as long as they get to load the SCOTUS.  So don't lecture about spineless.  Trump hasn't managed to wreck things because of all the baby sitters taking away his toys?  YCMTSU

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20 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I was going to disagree - but I realized I don't all that much.

OF COURSE the staff should ignore crazy orders from the crazy president, we don't need to invade Nambia :rolleyes: That is the short term solution to prevent a disaster today. That is NOT how to run the country. They all seem collectively frozen in place because they ...Just .......Can't.........Imagine....... getting rid of a Republican president that will sign almost anything at all they put in front of him. Man the FUCK UP and 25th this douchebag while we still have a country you spineless twits!

Insubordination is not a long term solution. These people need to follow the law. The Constitution provides a mechanism. 

Soooo...is it safe to think that the crazy routine is more than just a negotiating tactic?  

 

Stable genius!  The most stable genius in the GOP. 

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"I hire the best people." - Trump

How's that working out?

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1 hour ago, Snore said:

I am making this post as a “letter” as it seemed the easiest way to start the conversation of “is the NYT OpEd good or the county?” And is there a better way for this person to reach the same goal?  

                                                                                          

Dear Spineless,

I will begin by agreeing that Donny’s actions are not always right, and sometimes they do not appear to be intelligent.  But the economy is doing well, unemployment is down, and our military is doing well.  That said, like many, Donny worries me sometimes!   

Bottom line is - like it or not-  he is the duly elected President of the United States.

Your anonymous NYT Op Ed piece was deeply troubling.  Your article claims there are people in the White House who willingly conspire to thwart the actions of the duly elected president.   How is that not treason?  If you are brazen enough to subvert the government, why not man-up and sign the piece?

I expect to read about subversion of a presidency in third world countries.  But, it should be happened get here  in the United States!  And for someone to have the guile to brag about it?!?  Let’s face it, what good does your Op Ed piece do beyond feed your ego?

Knowing that one day, we might be in this predicament, The Constitution allows for the removal of a president under the 25th Amndment or via impeachment.  Beyond that, Mr. Mueller would gladly provide support if there was grounds.

So there are legal remedies to your perceived predicament— if there is cause.  But you appear to lack the fortitude or the grounds to move forward legally.  Instead, you subvert the presidency from within under the guise of protecting the country.  

These actions, if done covertly would be despicable and perhaps treasonous.  But when you choose to publish them, with no apparent goal beyond your ego, they destabilize the country you purport to try to save.  These actions make us appear weaker on the stage of international politics.  Instead if America being the greatest example of a stable country where we all move forward after an election- our country looks like a cheese third world country in. B-movie.

 

FFS bitch step out from the shadows!

Why do you hate Pence?

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don't understand this quasi patriotic rant..It was the trump voter minority that Put Trump there..not exactly Representative and not exactly democratic either...they only have themselves to blame for this disturbing debacle. Someone has to hold the fort until congress collective balls drop..bit Ironic to call the author spineless.

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13 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

don't understand this quasi patriotic rant..It was the trump voter minority that Put Trump there..not exactly Representative and not exactly democratic either...they only have themselves to blame for this disturbing debacle. Someone has to hold the fort until congress collective balls drop..bit Ironic to call the author spineless.

You're once again missing the point, Meli.  There's an established process for what's happening to be done above board, legally, and doing an end-run around a constitutional provision is illegal.    While we may all like *what* this person/group is doing, the way they're going about it negates their ability to be legally protected in their actions, and could negate future efforts to legally execute what they're surreptitiously doing now. 

When I first cheered the fact that there were folks in the inner-sanctum who were willing to thwart some of Trump's stupidity, I have to admit that I was being short-sighted in my enjoyment, and wasn't considering this bigger picture. 

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it is an “anonymous” Republican White House administration seeking to “honourably” justify their continued support for a totally unfit Republican POTUS.

That is the big picture....... ANYTHING to hang onto power.

 

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What happens when the underlings want to take action, and the President says "no."  Are we going to condone them doing so anyway because we like what they are doing this time?  

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Who do these people work for? The President or the American people? This isn't a policy disagreement like the Pentagon slow walking Clinton's anti-terrorism actions (Against All Enemies, pg. 145), this is belief of high level officials that the President is attempting actions that will directly harm the United States. Do we really want them to "stand up and quit' when they've, reportedly, stopped the assassination of a head of state (Assad) or the invasion of a country that hasn't attacked the US (Venezuela)? When the "process" is refusing to rein in the excesses of an increasingly imperial (and paranoid) executive, appearently for their own advancement, isn't this the best that we can hope for? This is akin to the SecDef issuing orders to commanders to ignore orders by Nixon during the Watergate investigation.

"...Defense Secretary James Schlesinger recalled years later that in the final days of the Nixon presidency he had issued an unprecedented set of orders: If the president gave any nuclear launch order, military commanders should check with either him or Secretary of State Henry Kissinger before executing them. Schlesinger feared that the president, who seemed depressed and was drinking heavily, might order Armageddon."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/11/donald-trump-nuclear-weapons-richard-nixon-215478

 

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The 25th Amendment should be on the table, if indeed POTUS is as of the rails as the Op Ed claims.  It is the only legal, American (you know, constitutional) way to deal with this situation.  That said, the current GOP leadership has shown time and time again that for them, the Constitution is more like the pirates code, a mere suggestion, as opposed to the actual law of the land.  They usurped the Constitution when they refused to give Merrick Garland so much as a hearing, let alone a confirmation vote because it was 9 months until an election.  Now, the same group is trying to rush through a SCOTUS judge, not only 2 months before an election, but while the POTUS who appointed said SCOTUS candidate is under investigation for crimes that could amount to actual literal treason.  This new wave of GOP, elected by a minority of those who love money and/or hate brown people have forgotten or never cared that their purpose is to govern, to lead, and to affect policies that are to the benefit of ALL Americans. 

They are drunk on power and because of that, will stop at nothing to retain that power.  The only thing we can do is to forget about party lines for a second, which shouldn't be hard, considering the modern "republican" is anything but--Most of them in congress are treasonous fascist autocratic assholes--and vote for those individuals who will put the best interests of America before their own self interests or those of the party.

But this tribal third world bullshit has got to stop.

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43 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

don't understand this quasi patriotic rant..It was the trump voter minority that Put Trump there..not exactly Representative and not exactly democratic either...they only have themselves to blame for this disturbing debacle. Someone has to hold the fort until congress collective balls drop..bit Ironic to call the author spineless.

Imagine the head of your library keeps putting kiddy-porn on the shelves. You are both in the Melbourne Freemasons or something, so you follow him/her around and take the books back off the shelves every day but don't have the balls to do anything else because you don't want to let the Freemasons down.

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For decades the world has put up with Yanks crowing about their exceptional republic. How it was the best thing since sliced bread and the rest of the world should follow along. The constitution was perfect and could handle anything thrown at it. 

Then at the first sign of trouble it is abandoned. At the first decent test it is abandoned and Americans support people actually working against the very thing they claimed was exceptional. The dick that wrote the op-ed is a spineless wanker. Someone, like many now, who feels that they have the right to break the law and disobey the constitution because they don’t like their boss. 

America is falling apart at the seams. It was expected that Trump was going to tear it all down. Instead it is those that fight him that are prepared to drag America down. Neither side come out of this well. It is just the behaviour of spoilt children. When Trump first arrived you were considered a joke because of him and the reactions of all parties. Now it is more pity, the death throws of a self proclaimed exceptional republic that has stumbled ungraciously at the first hint of trouble. 

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35 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

Who do these people work for? The President or the American people? This isn't a policy disagreement like the Pentagon slow walking Clinton's anti-terrorism actions (Against All Enemies, pg. 145), this is belief of high level officials that the President is attempting actions that will directly harm the United States. Do we really want them to "stand up and quit' when they've, reportedly, stopped the assassination of a head of state (Assad) or the invasion of a country that hasn't attacked the US (Venezuela)? When the "process" is refusing to rein in the excesses of an increasingly imperial (and paranoid) executive, appearently for their own advancement, isn't this the best that we can hope for? This is akin to the SecDef issuing orders to commanders to ignore orders by Nixon during the Watergate investigation.

"...Defense Secretary James Schlesinger recalled years later that in the final days of the Nixon presidency he had issued an unprecedented set of orders: If the president gave any nuclear launch order, military commanders should check with either him or Secretary of State Henry Kissinger before executing them. Schlesinger feared that the president, who seemed depressed and was drinking heavily, might order Armageddon."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/11/donald-trump-nuclear-weapons-richard-nixon-215478

 

Officials making recommendations that  influence a president's actions is exactly how the system is supposed to work. If the assassination of Assad or an attack on Venezuela were really under consideration credit or blame for the fact  that they were not carried goes to Trump. He ultimately made the decision, not his advisors.

OTOH....An unelected bureaucrat subverting the wishes of the elected president is a corruption of the system.

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34 minutes ago, sail611 said:

The 25th Amendment should be on the table, if indeed POTUS is as of the rails as the Op Ed claims.  It is the only legal, American (you know, constitutional) way to deal with this situation.  That said, the current GOP leadership has shown time and time again that for them, the Constitution is more like the pirates code, a mere suggestion, as opposed to the actual law of the land.  They usurped the Constitution when they refused to give Merrick Garland so much as a hearing, let alone a confirmation vote because it was 9 months until an election.  Now, the same group is trying to rush through a SCOTUS judge, not only 2 months before an election, but while the POTUS who appointed said SCOTUS candidate is under investigation for crimes that could amount to actual literal treason.  This new wave of GOP, elected by a minority of those who love money and/or hate brown people have forgotten or never cared that their purpose is to govern, to lead, and to affect policies that are to the benefit of ALL Americans. 

They are drunk on power and because of that, will stop at nothing to retain that power.  The only thing we can do is to forget about party lines for a second, which shouldn't be hard, considering the modern "republican" is anything but--Most of them in congress are treasonous fascist autocratic assholes--and vote for those individuals who will put the best interests of America before their own self interests or those of the party.

But this tribal third world bullshit has got to stop.

Speaking of tribal third world bullshit.

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

Officials making recommendations that  influence a president's actions is exactly how the system is supposed to work. If the assassination of Assad or an attack on Venezuela were really under consideration credit or blame for the fact  that they were not carried goes to Trump. He ultimately made the decision, not his advisors.

OTOH....An unelected bureaucrat subverting the wishes of the elected president is a corruption of the system.

Exactly. They need to man up and boot his ass out of there instead of trying to let him pretend to be president. But they won't because "Team R has to be winners even if they screw up the entire country" :rolleyes:

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" The dick that wrote the op-ed is a spineless wanker. Someone, like many now, who feels that they have the right to break the law and disobey the constitution because they don’t like their boss. "

What law was broken and what Constitutional requirement violated? Trump in NOT a king and these people are NOT subjects; they swore an oath to uphold the Constitution not blindly obey orders.  Even low level military officers are expected to refuse illegal orders, Neuremburg reinforced that concept.  

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2 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

...This is at best unethical and may be illegal. ...

Are you talking about Shitstain or his disloyal minion?

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1 minute ago, learningJ24 said:

" The dick that wrote the op-ed is a spineless wanker. Someone, like many now, who feels that they have the right to break the law and disobey the constitution because they don’t like their boss. "

What law was broken and what Constitutional requirement violated? Trump in NOT a king and these people are NOT subjects; they swore an oath to uphold the Constitution not blindly obey orders.  Even low level military officers are expected to refuse illegal orders, Neuremburg reinforced that concept.  

They aren't refusing anything, they are ignoring. Big difference.

Thank God they are - right now - but that CANNOT be how we run a country. What if they were - hard as this is to imagine - worse than Trump instead of better :o

If he is unfit, and he clearly is, their duty is to 25 him, not babysit him.

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Mark Felt was a true patriot and a hero.

So is this person.

Treason is betraying your country - it does not apply to exposing the POTUS for the dangerous loose cannon that he is.

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8 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

" The dick that wrote the op-ed is a spineless wanker. Someone, like many now, who feels that they have the right to break the law and disobey the constitution because they don’t like their boss. "

What law was broken and what Constitutional requirement violated? Trump in NOT a king and these people are NOT subjects; they swore an oath to uphold the Constitution not blindly obey orders.  Even low level military officers are expected to refuse illegal orders, Neuremburg reinforced that concept.  

There's a difference between refusing to obey what one considers an illegal order and surreptitiously subverting the chain of command.   

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3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I think the world needs more whistle blowers. Swamp draining 101.

 

Where were they during Obama's subversive reign ...Oh wait...the entrenched deep state was running cover....riddle me this.....8 years of Clinton.....crickets from the same outraged now....8 years of Bush...outrage from the former crickets......8 years of Obama....crickets from today's outraged.......2 years of Trump outrage from the awoken crickets.....anyone see a pattern ?

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Just now, SailBlueH2O said:

Where were they during Obama's subversive reign ...Oh wait...the entrenched deep state was running cover....riddle me this.....8 years of Clinton.....crickets from the same outraged now....8 years of Bush...outrage from the former crickets......8 years of Obama....crickets from today's outraged.......2 years of Trump outrage from the awoken crickets.....anyone see a pattern ?

Only you and your elk.

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20 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

There's a difference between refusing to obey what one considers an illegal order and surreptitiously subverting the chain of command.   

In the case of, for example, the assassination of a foreign leader we don't like, it's both, isn't it?  I agree with you on this, but there are circumstances that will be one or the other or both.  We've now seen book after book after op-ed that agree on what we all knew all along, which is that this guy has no grasp on reality.  That's fine for bullshitters but it's no way to run the damn country.  

These principled people taking it upon themselves to protect us need to follow the mechanism in the Constitution for doing so.  I suspect they will at some point; it will happen swiftly, and the moment he is removed he is subject to indictment, which would also be swift, but not as swift as efforts from the Man's Best Friend to pretend that his Presidency never happened.  

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25 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Where were they during Obama's subversive reign ...Oh wait...the entrenched deep state was running cover....riddle me this.....8 years of Clinton.....crickets from the same outraged now....8 years of Bush...outrage from the former crickets......8 years of Obama....crickets from today's outraged.......2 years of Trump outrage from the awoken crickets.....anyone see a pattern ?

Whataboutery is played out.

If you can't see Trump as different from the rest you are either a Russian troll or utterly divorced from reality.

* or maybe both :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Whataboutery is played out.

If you can't see Trump as different from the rest you are either a Russian troll or utterly divorced from reality.

* or maybe both :rolleyes:

 

I'll give the benefit of doubt and opine that he's a Russian Troll.....

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1 minute ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Whataboutery is played out.

If you can't see Trump as different from the rest you are either a Russian troll or utterly divorced from reality.

* or maybe both :rolleyes:

That there's indeed a difference doesn't negate the point, does it?   We are all inclined to defend the acations of those with whom we agree, and to look more critically at the actions of those with whom we disagree.  I don't think that most of this is anything more than that, and is a natural reaction to anyone who's complaint ( and I'm guilty of this on occasion) starts out with " You all always...." 

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"There's a difference between refusing to obey what one considers an illegal order and surreptitiously subverting the chain of command. "

And yet it goes on all the time in big bureaucracies, including the military. Slow walking an unpopular directive is standard fare.  This case, however, appears more extreme; a sitting President that, in the judgement of those very close, is dangerously unsuited to the role and whose policies pose a threat to the country.  Again, I go back to the question, "Who are these senior officials supposed to be loyal to first, the President or the country?"

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5 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

That there's indeed a difference doesn't negate the point, does it?   We are all inclined to defend the acations of those with whom we agree, and to look more critically at the actions of those with whom we disagree.  I don't think that most of this is anything more than that, and is a natural reaction to anyone who's complaint ( and I'm guilty of this on occasion) starts out with " You all always...." 

I never thought any previous president should have been ignored and subverted by his staff and should be kicked out for being incapacitated.

BTW - who the hell wants to invade Venezuela and assassinate a foreign leader or two? I cannot have much sympathy for anyone of that elk. This is the entire problem in a nutshell too, Republicans check their brains at the door and think ANYTHING a Republican does is great. Democrats are the exact opposite, they are like herding cats.

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4 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

"There's a difference between refusing to obey what one considers an illegal order and surreptitiously subverting the chain of command. "

And yet it goes on all the time in big bureaucracies, including the military. Slow walking an unpopular directive is standard fare.  This case, however, appears more extreme; a sitting President that, in the judgement of those very close, is dangerously unsuited to the role and whose policies pose a threat to the country.  Again, I go back to the question, "Who are these senior officials supposed to be loyal to first, the President or the country?"

Anonymous sniping is trying to be both at once.

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"I never thought any previous president should have been ignored and subverted by his staff and should be kicked out for being incapacitated."

Wilson after the stroke? Harding had the good fortune of dying before the circles of corruption closed in on him. Nixon WAS subverted by his staff before being "kicked out".

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

BTW - who the hell wants to invade Venezuela and assassinate a foreign leader or two? I cannot have much sympathy for anyone of that elk.

It's the fruitloops way he approached both of those subjects, not that he considered them.

 

Spineless? Spineless is the  Republican lead Congress. They are a co-equal branch, so stand up and be heard.

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"Anonymous sniping is trying to be both at once."

If the principled staffers leave, only the sycophants are left; is that good service to the country?

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Another letter

————————

dear diary

today i posted something on PA that lefties and righties agreed on.  

 

This is scary shit!!!!

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5 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

"There's a difference between refusing to obey what one considers an illegal order and surreptitiously subverting the chain of command. "

And yet it goes on all the time in big bureaucracies, including the military. Slow walking an unpopular directive is standard fare.  This case, however, appears more extreme; a sitting President that, in the judgement of those very close, is dangerously unsuited to the role and whose policies pose a threat to the country.  Again, I go back to the question, "Who are these senior officials supposed to be loyal to first, the President or the country?"

Loyalty to the country implies a responsibility to do things in an appropriate manner.  Though we may all like what was done and why, the how is still important, and doing the right thing the wrong way can be damaging too.   Like Kent said - anonymous sniping is trying to do both, and is avoiding making a public stand on what someone privately thinks. 

To Jiblets point about the spineless Congress - why aren't the D's submitting proposals for 25th amendment solutions if they feel so strongly that they've got a basis for it?   They're in the minority?  Isn't it incumbent upon the minority to block/advocate against majority proposals with which they disagree?   I agree that Congress is spineless - I think both sides have noodly backs. 

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It's likely to be Dan Coats, but it's someone who's working in real time to prevent ignorance and crime from damaging the country. Coats may have felt the need to get this out while he's still a part of the administration so it won't be taken as sour grapes. In that sense it's a warning shot that Trump not fire Mueller and it's a simple effort to put what many people think and what is unprecedented as a generalized concern, into the historical record. How many of Trump's former cabinet members would privately agree?

Trump's performance in Helsinki was so unbelievable and treasonous itself, that one's oath to uphold the law and protect the country outweighs starting what would be a very long long process lobbying others to start 25th Amendment proceedings.

It was a desperate move, but look at the results. Trump is literally claiming that the NYT and CNN will be out of business when he's out of office because there won't be anything to report on. I'm guessing that the anonymous aspect on this OPED is a tactic to get 25th Amendment proceedings started possibly and then the author will take ownership and quit the administration. Just a guess. The piece has more power if it starts out as anonymous, and it puts a lot of pressure on Never Trumpers to up their game and get the GOP to own this mess.

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16 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

They aren't refusing anything, they are ignoring. Big difference.

Thank God they are - right now - but that CANNOT be how we run a country. What if they were - hard as this is to imagine - worse than Trump instead of better :o

If he is unfit, and he clearly is, their duty is to 25 him, not babysit him.

Ignoring? Did you miss that part about vanishing/misplacing papers off the POTUSs desk till he forgot about them or didn't get to see info others though too dangerous for him to know/meddle in?

What would a competent CIC do when he found out his aides were purposefully keeping him in the dark/misleading him by presenting only selective biased information? If they can prevent a war that way they can also start one.

If this was done to Bush/Obama would it be treason?

The official is claiming the POTUS is unable and unfit to do the job and so he and others have usurped the power but only to a certain extent and all the bad things are Trumps doing whereas they are doing GOPs work. 

He claims the adults in the room keep pissing on the box of matches the crazy pyromaniac is playing with when he's not looking conveniently leaving out that the adults are tied up in a room in a gas station and the maniac also has a bunch of lighters. 

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3 hours ago, Snore said:

Blew whistle on what? What actionable information was given?

 

Whistle blowers sign thier name.

And are in big trouble: check with Reality Winner, Ed Snowden, Chelsea Manning, et al. The gloves are off. We've got to get him out.

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3 minutes ago, lasal said:

It's likely to be Dan Coats, but it's someone who's working in real time to prevent ignorance and crime from damaging the country. Coats may have felt the need to get this out while he's still a part of the administration so it won't be taken as sour grapes. In that sense it's a warning shot that Trump not fire Mueller and it's a simple effort to put what many people think and is unprecedented as a generalized concern, into the historical record. How many of Trump's former cabinet members would privately agree?

Trump's performance in Helsinki was so unbelievable and treasonous itself, that one's oath to uphold the law and protect the country outweighs starting what would be a very long long process lobbying others to start 25th Amendment proceedings.

It was a desperate move, but look at the results. Trump is literally claiming that the NYT and CNN will be out of business when he's out of office because there won't be anything to report on. I'm guessing that the anonymous aspect on this OPED is a tactic to get 25th Amendment proceedings started possibly and then the author will take ownership and quit the administration. Just a guess. The piece has more power if it starts out as anonymous, and it puts a lot of pressure on Never Trumpers to up their game and get the GOP to own this mess.

I think you are spot on here. It may indeed be an opening salvo to get a 25th slapped on Trump. It is basically laying the ground work so that no one is surprised or starts claiming it's the Deep State trying to fuck over Trump. It may also be a call to arms for the rest of the staff that may be having reservations about going along with a 25th proceeding.

While I have concerns about the manner in which this was done, Trump is to blame for being a crazy fuck and expecting everyone to just go along with it.

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15 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

To Jiblets point about the spineless Congress - why aren't the D's submitting proposals for 25th amendment solutions if they feel so strongly that they've got a basis for it?   They're in the minority?  Isn't it incumbent upon the minority to block/advocate against majority proposals with which they disagree?   I agree that Congress is spineless - I think both sides have noodly backs. 

Uh, they have objected to a bunch of Republican abuses. There's the ongoing joke of the House Intelligence committee, and Republicans just keep funneling money to Nunes.

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11 minutes ago, lasal said:

It's likely to be Dan Coats, but it's someone who's working in real time to prevent ignorance and crime from damaging the country. Coats may have felt the need to get this out while he's still a part of the administration so it won't be taken as sour grapes. In that sense it's a warning shot that Trump not fire Mueller and it's a simple effort to put what many people think and what is unprecedented as a generalized concern, into the historical record. How many of Trump's former cabinet members would privately agree?

Trump's performance in Helsinki was so unbelievable and treasonous itself, that one's oath to uphold the law and protect the country outweighs starting what would be a very long long process lobbying others to start 25th Amendment proceedings.

It was a desperate move, but look at the results. Trump is literally claiming that the NYT and CNN will be out of business when he's out of office because there won't be anything to report on. I'm guessing that the anonymous aspect on this OPED is a tactic to get 25th Amendment proceedings started possibly and then the author will take ownership and quit the administration. Just a guess. The piece has more power if it starts out as anonymous, and it puts a lot of pressure on Never Trumpers to up their game and get the GOP to own this mess.

Not sure I'm following your thinking on this?  

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4 minutes ago, bhyde said:

I think you are spot on here. It may indeed be an opening salvo to get a 25th slapped on Trump. It is basically laying the ground work so that no one is surprised or starts claiming it's the Deep State trying to fuck over Trump. It may also be a call to arms for the rest of the staff that may be having reservations about going along with a 25th proceeding.

While I have concerns about the manner in which this was done, Trump is to blame for being a crazy fuck and expecting everyone to just go along with it.

The overall effort is likely to be to apply enough pressure to Trump so he quits before 2019 and Pence can therefore run for prez in 2020.

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3 hours ago, phillysailor said:

We have a Constitutional Crisis since there appears to be a cabal of concerned aides, advisors and appointed officials who believe the president is impaired in his faculties or unfit for office, yet are unwilling to utilize the 25th Amendment to remedy the situation. Taking matters into their hands is only effective as a temporizing basis, as it is fundamentally illegal and destabilizing.

 

I heard some excerpts of Woodward's book discussed on NPR.  What troubles me, if true (and I have no reason to doubt it) is that this is a classic 25th Amendment issue. Why are they not dealing with this?  I think the people like Mattis and such are honorable and think they are doing the right thing.  But if it is really this bad, then they are doing the country no good by covering it up and dealing with it.  I wonder if they think the alternative chaos would be worse?  

I honestly don't envy their position.  

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45 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 We are all inclined to defend the acations of those with whom we agree, and to look more critically at the actions of those with whom we disagree.  

Keep telling yourself that....

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34 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

why aren't the D's submitting proposals for 25th amendment solutions if they feel so strongly that they've got a basis for it?   

That's not how it works, it's on the Republican cabinet. Can the Dem's submit articles of impeachment? Yes. And some of them (Ds) have:

 

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

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Re: the 25th.  I think it's an issue of making sure you know the outcome before you bring it forward.  If for some reason, an attempt fails, it only strengthens the President's position.

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25 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Not sure I'm following your thinking on this?  

It's more powerful as anonymous because it undermines Trump's administration far more than if authored openly. And it's a more powerful message to the the intended targets who are the other like minded "senior officials" and the entire GOP. He's saying you better get in front of this because you're a part of it, you have ten minutes. This is good stuff.

The author is obviously done with his colleagues not taking more action to get Trump out.

"The dilemma — which [Trump] does not fully grasp — is that many of the senior officials in his own administration are working diligently from within to frustrate parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations.

I would know. I am one of them."

I'd say it's a dilemma! I think the author has discovered it's not possible to contain this level of amoral ignorance and Trump needs to be pressured to quit. In other words, "you're fired!"

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Then there is the idea if you keep Trump totally stoked on rage and paranoia, he'll spend all his time investigating his own staff and ignore everything else.

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3 hours ago, bhyde said:

"I hire the best people." - Trump

How's that working out?

Exactly.  Now Donny is having staff put written denials on his desk.  The guy is a fucking genius.  The Inspector Clouseau of our generation.  I think Donny should go on live national TV. and take on say a 5th grader in a general knowledge quiz.  Show the country how fucking stupid he really is.  Amendments?  I like a Constitution that doesn't need amendments.  An average 5th grader would wipe the floor with his stupid ass. 

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40 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I don't have to "tell myself" flash - all anyone has to do is read what's posted here.   

I listened to Harris ask a couple questions yesterday. She's one of my senators, likely will run in 2020, so you'd think I'd be pre-disposed to agree.

She's a career prosecutor, who prosecuted. What a waste. She won't win the nomination.

So no, we aren't ALL predisposed to listen to "our side."

That's just a fiction you use, to make yourself feel better.

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36 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Then there is the idea if you keep Trump totally stoked on rage and paranoia, he'll spend all his time investigating his own staff and ignore everything else.

It keeps  the dems occupied and the republicans roll on.

Despite all the noise, it won't be the dems who bring him down it will be the republicans and that would give Pence and the establishment republicans a good shot at 2020 and 2024 unless the economy reverses.

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2 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

It keeps  the dems occupied and the republicans roll on.

Despite all the noise, it won't be the dems who bring him down it will be the republicans and that would give Pence and the establishment republicans a good shot at 2020 and 2024 unless the economy reverses.

just a correction, Anonymous is a Republican....

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16 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I listened to Harris ask a couple questions yesterday. She's one of my senators, likely will run in 2020, so you'd think I'd be pre-disposed to agree.

She's a career prosecutor, who prosecuted. What a waste. She won't win the nomination.

So no, we aren't ALL predisposed to listen to "our side."

That's just a fiction you use, to make yourself feel better.

You missed the point.  I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say with this comment, especially the bolded parts. 

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But what if the NYT’s op ed shows how far into dictatorship we have traveled, especially if you believe the op ed writer is a true believer Republican in the White House? Then you can see this as leading edge indicator of how dangerous this President is.

If they reveal their identity, who will protect them?  

Anybody?  The Constitution?  The whistleblower law?

Assume, for a moment, that folks who work with the President, now actually know for a fact thatTrump has trashed the constitution & rule of law-  if true, he will simply destroy the writer of the op ed.  He destroys people he likes!  Much less someone he hates. His base talks openly of killing enemies of the Trump state.  The people who work intimately with the president may know this.

Could any of you look this person in eye and tell them to, unprotected,  face the unchecked wrath of Donald Trump and his crowd?

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3 hours ago, Dog said:

Speaking of tribal third world bullshit.

From the guy that goes out of his way to ignore logic, reason, fact, truth, and reality to support this cluster fuck.

Good on you

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21 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You missed the point.  I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say with this comment, especially the bolded parts. 

According to you, I should have fawned over Harris cause she's on "my side." 

I didn't.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

According to you, I should have fawned over Harris cause she's on "my side." 

I didn't.

Thanks for explaining what you thought I meant.  I think you might want to go back and first read the note I responded to, and then re-read my response.   I suspect you'll come away with a different understanding of what I was saying.   

This explanation clears up my confusion as well. 

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Loyalty to the country implies a responsibility to do things in an appropriate manner.

No. That is not what loyalty means or implies. I think Mister OpEd is being quite loyal to America even as he is being clearly disloyal to Shitstain.

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28 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

No. That is not what loyalty means or implies. I think Mister OpEd is being quite loyal to America even as he is being clearly disloyal to Shitstain.

Well - that certainly establishes your situational standard for propriety. 

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38 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

No. That is not what loyalty means or implies. I think Mister OpEd is being quite loyal to America even as he is being clearly disloyal to Shitstain.

If “loyalty” looks and smells like a bureaucratic coup d’etat, I don’t want to be represented by it. 

Trump needs to be able to trust his advisors. If they have lost faith in him or believe he is unfit for office, they need to say so. 

If they have mutual support, then the 25th Amendment comes into play. 

If they don’t, then we are already in a Constitutional Crisis. We can see how a dictatorship can replace our administration, and perhaps it already has. The intellectual and moral weaklings whom Trump has picked are demonstrably NOT our best or our brightest, and they are salted with longtime Trump loyalists and family members. They can’t trust one another and they feel unmoored from a coherent administrative structure. 

The Trimp administration is a shambles, but without anyone able to take a stand amongst them and the Senate, we are in real jeopardy of a serious clusterfuck. We certainly could not respond to an aggressor or economic emergency at this poIntvwith a coherent policy.  

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

sort of like a hostage situation..but I'm not sure who are the hostages and who's the kidnapper.

Nothing of the sort. Hostages don't elect their kidnappers...

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"Loyalty to the country implies a responsibility to do things in an appropriate manner."

We don't know what the "appropriate manner" is, this situation is utterly without precedent if the reports are to be credited. We've always counted on electing more or less reasonable, moral and logical people, that doesn't seem to apply with this President. We've NEVER had a president that lies so  blatently and consistently nor have we had one appear mentally unstable not to mention criminal investigations from the early days of their presidency.  ALL the "appropriate manner" solutions take more time than the country can afford if the reports are true. 

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The whole thing rings of bullshit to me.

If (big if) this individual was working for the resistance to thwart Trump the Op-Ed seems to be counter productive to that goal, why tell them? just stay under the radar and get it done. All while being too gutless to own it.   

The piece offers nothing new in terms of who Trump the man is, was during the campaign and will be till his term is up.

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Dan Coats has come out and denied writing the op-ed. If the shit hits the fan and he gets called to testify, it brings a credibility problem into the picture.

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9 minutes ago, learningJ24 said:

"Loyalty to the country implies a responsibility to do things in an appropriate manner."

We don't know what the "appropriate manner" is, this situation is utterly without precedent if the reports are to be credited. We've always counted on electing more or less reasonable, moral and logical people, that doesn't seem to apply with this President. We've NEVER had a president that lies so  blatently and consistently nor have we had one appear mentally unstable not to mention criminal investigations from the early days of their presidency.  ALL the "appropriate manner" solutions take more time than the country can afford if the reports are true. 

I think that you need to re-read several of the contributions that have already been made to this discussion, and listen to the news reports (NPR had a decent segment this morning) to acquaint yourself with the "appropriate manner".    
To your last sentence?  "take more time than the country can afford"?  Help me understand what you think, in terms of what is "too much time", what the country "can't afford", and what you think a more appropriate option would be.  

 

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

just a correction, Anonymous is a Republican....

I guess you were so eager to respond that you missed

Despite all the noise, it won't be the dems who bring him down it will be the republicans ...

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2 minutes ago, austin1972 said:

Dan Coats has come out and denied writing the op-ed. If the shit hits the fan and he gets called to testify, it brings a credibility problem into the picture.

If he didn't write it, what's the credibility question?  

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1 hour ago, Amati said:

But what if the NYT’s op ed shows how far into dictatorship we have traveled, especially if you believe the op ed writer is a true believer Republican in the White House? Then you can see this as leading edge indicator of how dangerous this President is.

If they reveal their identity, who will protect them?  

Anybody?  The Constitution?  The whistleblower law?

Assume, for a moment, that folks who work with the President, now actually know for a fact thatTrump has trashed the constitution & rule of law-  if true, he will simply destroy the writer of the op ed.  He destroys people he likes!  Much less someone he hates. His base talks openly of killing enemies of the Trump state.  The people who work intimately with the president may know this.

Could any of you look this person in eye and tell them to, unprotected,  face the unchecked wrath of Donald Trump and his crowd?

Tin foil is in aisle 9

Keep in mind, at some point in the future, someone will out this guy. Really, do you think the NYT can keep a secret indefinitely??

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35 minutes ago, Snore said:

Tin foil is in aisle 9

Keep in mind, at some point in the future, someone will out this guy. Really, do you think the NYT can keep a secret indefinitely??

No but they can keep one infinitely longer than Shitstain + his merry band of Turds.

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6 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

You're once again missing the point, Meli.  There's an established process for what's happening to be done above board, legally, and doing an end-run around a constitutional provision is illegal.    While we may all like *what* this person/group is doing, the way they're going about it negates their ability to be legally protected in their actions, and could negate future efforts to legally execute what they're surreptitiously doing now. 

When I first cheered the fact that there were folks in the inner-sanctum who were willing to thwart some of Trump's stupidity, I have to admit that I was being short-sighted in my enjoyment, and wasn't considering this bigger picture. 

True all dat, here's a good summation of the situation from The Atlantic. (its longish so heres a snipet)

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/09/theres-no-coup-against-trump/569482/

The biggest open secret in Washington is that Donald Trump is unfit to be president. His staff knows it. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell knows it. House Speaker Paul Ryan knows it. Everyone who works for the president, including his attorneys, knows it. But they all want something, whether it’s upper-income tax cuts, starving the social safety net, or solidifying a right-wing federal judiciary. The Constitution provides for the removal of a president who is dangerously unfit, but those who have the power to remove him will not do so not out of respect for democracy, but because Trump is a means to get what they want. The officials who enable the Trump administration to maintain some veneer of normalcy, rather than resigning and loudly proclaiming that the president is unfit, are not “resisters.” They are enablers.

The anonymous Times op-ed writer is no different. While claiming that they and other officials are “thwarting Mr. Trump’s more misguided impulses,” the op-ed provides few examples of this, and the author must know that the mere existence of their piece will only inflame those impulses. Already Trump has declared that “the Times must, for National Security purposes, turn him/her over to government at once!” If the president ever decides to issue unconstitutional orders to the Justice Department or the Pentagon, he and his supporters will point to this op-ed and claim that drastic action was necessary to “protect democracy.”

 
 

The real threat to American democracy comes not from self-aggrandizing current or former Trump officials who take to the press to burnish their legacies, but from the president’s authoritarian impulses, and a unified Republican Party that has abdicated its constitutional duties to ensure that executive power is not turned into a partisan weapon. President Trump believes that the Justice Department should allow his allies to get away with crimes but maliciously prosecute his enemies, that it should be illegal to criticize or read criticism of him, and that religious and ethnic minorities have no rights he is bound to respect.

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1 hour ago, Snore said:

Tin foil is in aisle 9

Keep in mind, at some point in the future, someone will out this guy. Really, do you think the NYT can keep a secret indefinitely??

Well, yes. Just look at the experience with Deep Throat. Secret until he didn’t care anymore.

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6 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Imagine the head of your library keeps putting kiddy-porn on the shelves. You are both in the Melbourne Freemasons or something, so you follow him/her around and take the books back off the shelves every day but don't have the balls to do anything else because you don't want to let the Freemasons down.

Heh..pretty good analogy. No, I get the point, but together with the Woodward Book, this OpEd seems to be providing some sort of catalyst for the house to DO SOMETING!!

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Heh..pretty good analogy. No, I get the point, but together with the Woodward Book, this OpEd seems to be providing some sort of catalyst for the house to DO SOMETING!!

voters can DO SOMETHING in Nov 2020. Till then Trump is President.

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