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Shootist Jeff

A series of questions for Jocal.... Feel free to play along

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3 hours ago, chinabald said:

Its probably a fine line between a target with an image on it, and posting actual peoples pictures. Where would you draw the line,

Our ranges are in full view of the public, would it be OK to have politicians pictures on the range? Nationally known celebrities? The club President? 

A good point.

 I went and Googled images a couple of days ago when this was first mentioned, they don’t appear very high on the search in the UK, different type of range shooting I guess.

But I did find some that were made up to look like a suicide bomber, open jacket with explosive vest on. Different type of country I guess. 

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1 hour ago, jocal505 said:

You may play that on a thread under your name. Not under mine.

How cute. You now have a delusion that you run this forum.

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12 hours ago, jocal505 said:
13 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What’s wrong with human shaped targets?

Besides sporting extreme violence? Aside from the violence conditioning, er, the "training" for Mrs. Nelson, the MILF? I wonder indeed, where we' will find the root causes of violence.

You mean like these???

Top-Elastical-Flexible-Free-Standing-Box

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11 hours ago, chinabald said:
13 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What’s wrong with human shaped targets?

Its probably a fine line between a target with an image on it, and posting actual peoples pictures. Where would you draw the line,

Our ranges are in full view of the public, would it be OK to have politicians pictures on the range? Nationally known celebrities? The club President? 

Maybe we're using different terminology.  When you say "neither allow targets that depict a person", I interpret that to mean you can't even have human silhouette targets.  If it instead means you can't have targets that depict an actual person or a specific person, then I 100% agree with that.  

My "line" would be pictures of actual people - certainly no specific people's likeness.  A grey area would be cartoonish or generic depictions of real people.  But I firmly believe in the concept of "train like you fight".  And since I'm not terribly worried that round, black paper discs with bullseyes painted on them are going to attack me in a dark alley somewhere - I don't feel the need to practice self-defense at the range against round targets.  I shoot round targets when I doing target practice for basic skills, or sighting in a gun or scope.  I shoot at human shaped silhouettes when I am specifically working on self-defensive tactics and skills.  There's a difference.

These targets to me are  acceptable:

b-27-black-silhouette-target-without-arm

SA072_500_1.JPG

alvo-para-tiro-silhueta-refem-20-unidade

TargetSilhouette.jpg

printable-zombie-targets-373e92f8d4fef64

 

These are not:

GT-DT-SKULLTAT.jpg

ialefi-qr_L.jpg

22570-will.png

 

ialefi-qr-c_L.jpg

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11 hours ago, bpm57 said:

How cute. You now have a delusion that you run this forum.

The thread is young,. and the understanding of violence  nascent. 

The conversation has been unrelenting for six years. I think I'll do a Chicago job on your asses. 

 

In the middle ages, cholera victims were thought of as evil. They were shunned and shamed.  That disease was not understood. 

gangsta pic 10, Jeffie.png

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Maybe we're using different terminology.  When you say "neither allow targets that depict a person", I interpret that to mean you can't even have human silhouette targets.  If it instead means you can't have targets that depict an actual person or a specific person, then I 100% agree with that.  

My "line" would be pictures of actual people - certainly no specific people's likeness.  A grey area would be cartoonish or generic depictions of real people.  But I firmly believe in the concept of "train like you fight".  And since I'm not terribly worried that round, black paper discs with bullseyes painted on them are going to attack me in a dark alley somewhere - I don't feel the need to practice self-defense at the range against round targets.  I shoot round targets when I doing target practice for basic skills, or sighting in a gun or scope.  I shoot at human shaped silhouettes when I am specifically working on self-defensive tactics and skills.  There's a difference.

These targets to me are  acceptable:

b-27-black-silhouette-target-without-arm

SA072_500_1.JPG

alvo-para-tiro-silhueta-refem-20-unidade

TargetSilhouette.jpg

printable-zombie-targets-373e92f8d4fef64

 

These are not:

GT-DT-SKULLTAT.jpg

ialefi-qr_L.jpg

22570-will.png

 

ialefi-qr-c_L.jpg

Some people need killing. ^^^^.  You dropped your bombs on guys just like this, no doubt.

Unbelievable shit. You are programming yourself to be a POS.

You can't parse violence against crosshairs, or against sillouettes, or against pictures of bad guys. Your multiple choices are each violent. All for the right cause, of course.

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You mean like these???

Top-Elastical-Flexible-Free-Standing-Box

Three times with this. This is a certain layer of violence, just another form of violence. It is non-lethal violence, better than some other forms and a poor substitute for understanding, good crisis management, and non-violence.

What is your point with the martial arts chick?

 

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2 hours ago, Not guilty said:

It is clear that you think violence is something bad. I guess that is where you are wrong and are likely to stay wrong. Hey it's your life, live it like a mop if you want.

I will spend the entire day with my life very, very much in danger. I will be all over it. I am 68 years old, bro. What are you doing today?

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9 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

I will spend the entire day with my life very, very much in danger. I will be all over it. I am 68 years old, bro. What are you doing today?

Exactly how can pounding a keyboard all day be dangerous? 

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6 hours ago, mad said:

Exactly how can pounding a keyboard all day be dangerous? 

carpal tunnel syndrome hurts...

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15 hours ago, mad said:

Exactly how can pounding a keyboard all day be dangerous? 

Today is over. How was your chair. Did it give you chairbutt?

 

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15 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Today is over. How was your chair. Did it give you chairbutt?

 

Good thank you, a full day of loading rubbish into skips at work. 

Unlike you, I have a full time job that requires a fair amount of physical effort and long hours at times. 

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7 hours ago, mad said:

Good thank you, a full day of loading rubbish into skips at work. 

Too bad I missed it.

Quote

Unlike you, I have a full time job that requires a fair amount of physical effort and long hours at times. 

 

Quote

 Hey it's your life, live it like a mop if you want.

You guys may be operating under some poor assumptions. ^^^  What did I do in the war today, daddy? I set the last roof panel onto my baby

 

 

Kramer Barn, week eight.jpg

You want to paint me as a limp wrist? Not so much. But I avoid fights, big-time.

Collective violence is a dead end.

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6 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Too bad I missed it.

 

You guys may be operating under some poor assumptions. ^^^  What did I do in the war today, daddy? I set the last roof panel onto my baby

 

 

Kramer Barn, week eight.jpg

You want to paint me as a limp wrist? Not so much. But I avoid fights, big-time.

Collective violence is a dead end.

You want to lump self defense in with assaults. It’s all just violence to you. Everyone of us here advocating for guns wants there to be less assaults (thankfully those numbers are way down over time).

What we want is to keep the right to defend ourselves if we are assaulted. You seem to think the act of self defense is equal to the original assault, that any “violence” is the same but in reality it is not. 

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48 minutes ago, chinabald said:

What we want is to keep the right to defend ourselves if we are assaulted.

Fine, but guns are not a direct requirement for self defense. And since violence is contagious, you need to do some thinking.

 

24 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Diagonal bracing?

-DSK

Good call. This thing was top heavy. The vertical timbers are each committed, stuck in 1.5 yds of concrete. Walls pick up the sheer, technically, but the roof is fully sheeted as well. 

Um, the stoopid danger feeds PTSD, IMO.

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2 hours ago, chinabald said:

You want to lump self defense in with assaults.

First, all respect.

Next, please consider the definition of an epidemic. A transfer of a problem occurs, between people. Sometimes.

Think MADD. Um, violence is gonna become addressed as a public health problem, not as a personal character fault.

Violence is a learned behavior that can be unlearned. Why are you transferring (and blessing) the violence?

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2 hours ago, chinabald said:

Everyone of us here advocating for guns wants there to be less assaults (thankfully those numbers are way down over time).

Please, let's avoid dumbass territory, the both of us. RTC is increasing assaults 13%  to 15%, in the fourteen new RTC states. The Gun Violence Archives numbers are up about twenty percent in most categories. AW mayhem is not exactly diminishing. This deal is a mess, cb, a grotesque parade led by the detestable Larry Pratt.

And he is proposing extreme, LETHAL violence, with training for it.  Heller is stretching common law.

 

  2 hours ago, chinabald said:

You seem to think the act of self defense is equal to the original assault, that any “violence” is the same but in reality it is not. 

It's a collective deal which feeds upon itself. You are sponsoring the key logic of it,  mate.  It is cross-cultural.

  • Average  white high schoolers are challenging your Larry Pratt model.
  • Five different cities now have obvious gun violence epidemics. GENOCIDAL BLOODBATHS. 

Long live the  Chicago dog whistle, you fuckers.  And bring on the brain pattern analysis.  The USA has developed a problem (find the very assumption in your quote): a genepool ripe for setting up violence, in incubators in the inner cities.

I love this place.

  Quote

A scientific strategy means that we don’t look at “good” and “bad” people, but instead looks for desirable and undesirable events, or “outcomes.” Most importantly, it employs what we know from decades of experience in reversing other epidemics.

The reversal of epidemics is primarily reliant not on antibiotics or vaccines, which do not exist for many diseases, but on behavior change that stops the spread of the disease. Therefore, this new strategy to eradicate violence must use behavior change techniques that are based not on moralistic or sociological diagnoses, but on proven scientific findings.

The biggest thing that science tells us is that violence is not inevitable. We can create a world were violence is a rare occurrence, like plague or cholera is today. There are scientifically informed approaches that have been refined for decades in epidemiology that can change unhealthy behaviors.

http://cureviolence.org/understand-violence/science-of-violent-behavior/

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1 hour ago, jocal505 said:

First, all respect.

Next, please consider the definition of an epidemic. A transfer of a problem occurs, between people. Sometimes.

Think MADD. Um, violence is gonna become addressed as a public health problem, not as a personal character fault.

Violence is a learned behavior that can be unlearned. Why are you transferring (and blessing) the violence?

Does MADD want to curb the legal use of automobiles? 

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2 hours ago, chinabald said:

Does MADD want to curb the legal use of automobiles? 

 

Lert's talk MADD. Gary Slutkin points to nuances there

MADD identified a disease. It attached compassion, understanding, and healing to that disease. It increased the consequences of certain high risk behavior. It benefitted the victims of the disease, generating an effectve track record. That whole bit can, and will,  be passed to today's acceptance of violence.

 

Your violence is better than other violence, it's for a good cause. But it's still violence, leading to other violence. Allow me to quote  a central point of the humble  Alice Walker (the author of "The Color Purple'):

"If we don't heal ourselves, we can never heal the world."

"We need to lead ourselves, and until we do, we won’t get very far."

YOU make a the difference. The violence stops with you, because you set that up. You spot the violence within your thought patterns, and change to habitually non-violent alternatives, as others have.

 

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29 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

 

Lert's talk MADD. Gary Slutkin points to nuances there

MADD identified a disease. It attached compassion, understanding, and healing to that disease. It increased the consequences of certain high risk behavior. It benefitted the victims of the disease, generating an effectve track record. That whole bit can, and will,  be passed to today's acceptance of violence.

 

Your violence is better than other violence, it's for a good cause. But it's still violence, leading to other violence. Allow me to quote  a central point of the humble  Alice Walker (the author of "The Color Purple'):

"If we don't heal ourselves, we can never heal the world."

"We need to lead ourselves, and until we do, we won’t get very far."

YOU make a the difference. The violence stops with you, because you set that up. You spot the violence within your thought patterns, and change to habitually non-violent alternatives, as others have.

 

MADD isn’t about a disease. It’s Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. They don’t care if you are drunk because of 1 binge or a chronic lifetime of alcoholism. They care that when you drive, you aren’t drunk. They aren’t MAD Mothers against Drunks. Or Mothers against Drivers. It’s MADD for a reason.  

It’s not accurate for you to portray your tilting at windmills as similar to their program that identifies 1 specific illegal act as the thing they are against. To use a gun metaphor they are snipers who have a very specific target that they focused on. You are the guy at the state park hand throwing clay pigeons and trying to shoot them with a shotgun with a cylinder choke. Hoping the spread pattern of pellets will hit what he is aiming at. And like the clay pigeon your target seems to shift and move with the wind. 

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On 10/16/2018 at 12:31 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

You mean like these???

Top-Elastical-Flexible-Free-Standing-Box

 

My violence is always more justified than a thugger's, but let's be careful with that. Any more questions for Joe? Where were you off to? What a nifty thread. Bump.

 

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On 10/18/2018 at 11:43 AM, chinabald said:

It’s not accurate for you to portray your tilting at windmills as similar to their program that identifies

There are lessons to be learned from the safety generated by MADD. Slutkin and I see effective behavior mod mechanisms.

Your "metaphor"  is a layer of gun violence, in a stretched fantasy, which you apply to an org that could smell you coming. This is like hiding behind the Fourteenth to champion Citizen's United, or gun violence, It is sick. It is quite warped.

Let's talk MADD some more,  but not contained mypically on your NRA talking point. 

On 10/18/2018 at 11:05 AM, jocal505 said:

--Think MADD. Um, violence is gonna become addressed as a public health problem, not as a personal character fault.

--MADD identified a disease. It attached compassion, understanding, and healing to that disease. It increased the consequences of certain high risk behavior. It benefitted the victims of the disease, generating an effectve track record. That whole bit can, and will,  be passed to today's acceptance of violence.

--It made it socially acceptable to call bs, to take away keys, , when unfit to drive.

What should we do when a buddy or relative is unfit to carry? What does drunk on guns look like?

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@Shootist Jeff you always want to discuss solutions for Chicago. This is your chance, but you split a week ago (just after I laid a Chicago epidemic on your ass). Did your fluffy head explode multiple cliches?

 

 

To help you catch up, you want behavior mod to be applied, to stop the gun violence, in order to save the hardware. I am willing to come on board now. It would make MLK quite proud to see us united in this way.

The successful and accepted modification proven by Gary Slutkin goes directly to backing down from a fight, or to duty to retreat.  Such is the fabric of non-violence. Let's spread the word, to save the gunz. 

You must have wise, superior, well-written, pro-violent comments for us.

CV violence clusters, Bangladesh.jpg

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On 10/18/2018 at 11:43 AM, chinabald said:

MADD isn’t about a disease.

Oh yes it is. And they got many trained to successfully stem and manage this disease. MADD and AA do good work, and they are all about behavior change. They are also about not tolerating or accepting imbalanced, dangerous behavior.

If they didn't ban cars, but they certainly canned car keys in the possession of drunks. Judges implemented the behavior mod path that MADD supported in many, many, court appearances. MADD changed people's minds about the victims of a disease...which was not yet an epidemic.

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On 10/16/2018 at 3:57 PM, jocal505 said:

The thread is young,. and the understanding of violence  nascent. 

The conversation has been unrelenting for six years. I think I'll do a Chicago job on your asses. 

 

In the middle ages, cholera victims were thought of as evil. They were shunned and shamed.  That disease was not understood. 

gangsta pic 10, Jeffie.png

Hey Joey, great pics!  I see you're finally coming around and understanding my point I was making with my previous gangsta pics.  As I said before, you seem to be evolving finally and coming around, albeit slowly and reluctantly, to our (me, AGITC, LenP, 22Tom and some others) POV.  There is hope for you yet.

But before we start high-fiving in celebration, can you in your own words, articulate what those two pics of the presumably father holding a gun to his child's head means to you?  Because this is really important to that understanding of violence you claim to be seeking.  

And as a bonus question, can you also articulate how my gun culture (i.e. the gun culture that I have espoused) or the NRA drove this person to take these actions and film it?

Thanks in advance.

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On 10/16/2018 at 4:05 PM, jocal505 said:

Some people need killing. ^^^^.  You dropped your bombs on guys just like this, no doubt.

Unbelievable shit. You are programming yourself to be a POS.

You can't parse violence against crosshairs, or against sillouettes, or against pictures of bad guys. Your multiple choices are each violent. All for the right cause, of course.

WTF????  I dropped bombs on guys this:

printable-zombie-targets-373e92f8d4fef64

But seriously joey, please expand on this statement:  "Unbelievable shit. You are programming yourself to be a POS."  

How am I programming myself to be a POS because I'm shooting at generic shaped silhouette targets???

Why do the Po-Leece train to shoot at human silhouette targets?

160524-copscarbine-08dt.JPG;w=960;h=640;

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On 10/16/2018 at 4:11 PM, jocal505 said:
On 10/16/2018 at 11:31 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

You mean like these???

Top-Elastical-Flexible-Free-Standing-Box

Three times with this. This is a certain layer of violence, just another form of violence. It is non-lethal violence, better than some other forms and a poor substitute for understanding, good crisis management, and non-violence.

What is your point with the martial arts chick?

 

Where did you get the notion that martial arts is non-lethal???  You DO realize that more people are killed every year with fists and feet than with assault rifles.  By a LOT!  Right??  Yes, of course you know this because we've pointed this fact out to you many times before.  So don't play dumb.  Or does it just come naturally to you?

The point of the martial arts "chick" (you misogynist) is that it is common and standard practice throughout ALL forms of self defense training to use likenesses of human form as a training aid.  Because self defense training - irregardless of what weapon is used, be it feet, fists, sticks or gunz - is training to stop an attack by another human being.  Martial arts people don't train to fend off attacks by killer llamas or jellyfish.  Nor do women who train with a handgun to defend themselves against rape train to defend against rapist paper circles with bullseyes on them.

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On 10/18/2018 at 9:38 AM, jocal505 said:

Too bad I missed it.

 

You guys may be operating under some poor assumptions. ^^^  What did I do in the war today, daddy? I set the last roof panel onto my baby

 

 

Kramer Barn, week eight.jpg

You want to paint me as a limp wrist? Not so much. But I avoid fights, big-time.

Collective violence is a dead end.

For all the time you've spent here waxing lyrical against gunz - that house could have been finished years ago.  Just sayin.....

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On 10/18/2018 at 3:58 PM, chinabald said:

You want to lump self defense in with assaults. It’s all just violence to you. Everyone of us here advocating for guns wants there to be less assaults (thankfully those numbers are way down over time).

What we want is to keep the right to defend ourselves if we are assaulted. You seem to think the act of self defense is equal to the original assault, that any “violence” is the same but in reality it is not. 

He does.  And not only does he think self defense = assaults, he also strongly says that anyone who engages in even the act of preparing for self-defense is a vigilante.  

That's some fucked up shit right there.

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9 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

For all the time you've spent here waxing lyrical against gunz - that house could have been finished years ago.  Just sayin.....

It's a barn. That was about week eight. My help was the clueless homeowner. I am one macho dude, you get that, right?

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On 10/24/2018 at 8:33 PM, jocal505 said:

There are lessons to be learned from the safety generated by MADD. Slutkin and I see effective behavior mod mechanisms.

Your "metaphor"  is a layer of gun violence, in a stretched fantasy, which you apply to an org that could smell you coming. This is like hiding behind the Fourteenth to champion Citizen's United, or gun violence, It is sick. It is quite warped.

Let's talk MADD some more,  but not contained mypically on your NRA talking point. 

On 10/18/2018 at 10:05 PM, jocal505 said:

--Think MADD. Um, violence is gonna become addressed as a public health problem, not as a personal character fault.

--MADD identified a disease. It attached compassion, understanding, and healing to that disease. It increased the consequences of certain high risk behavior. It benefitted the victims of the disease, generating an effectve track record. That whole bit can, and will,  be passed to today's acceptance of violence.

--It made it socially acceptable to call bs, to take away keys, , when unfit to drive.

What should we do when a buddy or relative is unfit to carry? What does drunk on guns look like?

Its interesting that you've now suddenly embraced MADD applied to violence as your own idea when I've been talking about it for years here and you've repeatedly (ask @Bent Sailor what that word means) denied that MADD is a suitable model or analogue.  

As Jhyna-bald correctly stated, MADD is not about taking away people's cars nor is it about taking away their booze.  They are not interested in the disease of drinking.  Those mothers could care less (and I share their POV) if you drink yourself into oblivion - as long as you do it far away from behind the wheel of a car where you could hurt others.  

I have repeatedly (there's that word again) said that what MADD brings to the table is behavior modification through education, outright shaming, and strict enforcement of the laws.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to call call BS on bad gun handling behavior such as the pic you recently showed of the father holding a gun to his infant kids head.  That guy should be in jail, IMHO.  I want it to be socially acceptable to lock parents up if they leave a gun laying around and a kid hurts themselves or others with it.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to refuse to sell a gun to someone with a shady history.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to mock and reject bad behavior with guns such as we see in the black gangsta pic series.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to be locked up for a LONG LONG time if you commit a crime with a gun.  Just like we did with drunk drivers.  

But it had nothing to do with drunk driving or alcoholism as a disease.

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34 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:
On 10/18/2018 at 4:58 AM, chinabald said:

You want to lump self defense in with assaults. It’s all just violence to you. Everyone of us here advocating for guns wants there to be less assaults (thankfully those numbers are way down over time).

What we want is to keep the right to defend ourselves if we are assaulted. http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/search/&q=chicago&author=Shootist Jeff

He does.  And not only does he think self defense = assaults, he also strongly says that anyone who engages in even the act of preparing for self-defense is a vigilante.  

That's some fucked up shit right there.

Gentlemen, thanks for the discussion. With respect and appreciation for both of you...PBO once tried to guide us through this. As one looks at the discussion,  one sees that Tom ran the discussion off the rails. He took it to "self defense," and equated that to gunplay. He failed to get to first base, and your side retired with him.

Quote

Post 317 PBO, on 26 Jan 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

We're discussing* my proposed theory that the American attitude to self defense, because it in itself is inherently violent, contributes to the overall violence problem within the US. However it (the American attitude to self defense) is not recognised as a contributing factor because the American attitude to self defense is both insidious & carefully crafted.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=163210&page=5&#entry4827859

Quote

 

34 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

What we want is to keep the right to defend ourselves if we are assaulted.

 

DO NOT EQUATE SELF DEFENSE TO GUN PRESENCE.  Do not insult me with your urban myth bullshit.

 

34 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

(quoting cb) You seem to think the act of self defense is equal to the original assault, that any “violence” is the same but in reality it is not. 

Oh yes it is.

  • Violence is transferred between humans in some situations, but not others.
  • Cholera is transferred between humans, in some cases, but not in others.
  • AIDS is transferred between humans, in some cases, but not in others.  

They each act the same. Each can form up an epidemic, sometimes. Let's diagnose what makes a difference in each case.

Why the black dot, in each case? Why the red dot, in each case? How can Slutlkin predictably turn violence into a stable neighborhood?

CV violence clusters, Bangladesh.jpg

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11 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

I am one macho dude, you get that, right?

No, not really.

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Its interesting that you've now suddenly embraced MADD applied to violence as your own idea when I've been talking about it for years here and you've repeatedly (ask @Bent Sailor what that word means) denied that MADD is a suitable model or analogue.  

Just like your history, just like your research, you have cherry-picked MADD. There is more than one lesson to be learned in what they did, how they did it, and even where it may go in the future. I've seen a few amazing AA counselors, and they were beautiful because they were hubris free. MADD created some powerful guys on the street, mate.

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

But before we start high-fiving in celebration, can you in your own words, articulate what those two pics of the presumably father holding a gun to his child's head means to you?  Because this is really important to that understanding of violence you claim to be seeking.  

He is lost in violence (even more than yourself, in this pose). The force of a gun is quite normal to him, and to his photographer. The child will be steeped in violence. Another day in the fringes of the USA. 

You need him because he is worse than you. But IMO your values are identical, and they are empty since they are all about me.

1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And as a bonus question, can you also articulate how my gun culture (i.e. the gun culture that I have espoused) or the NRA drove this person to take these actions and film it?

Who said you drive this man's issues? I see that you have issues coming out your ears.

WTF do you care about this homeboy? You are so intent on being a stable, cool, non-violent model, that he is of no concern to you. His lost values are the garbage, and you deal with that as little as possible. You have other, much finer matters to deal with. 

 

50 cent from Jeffie.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

WTF????  I dropped bombs on guys this:

printable-zombie-targets-373e92f8d4fef64

But seriously joey, please expand on this statement:  "Unbelievable shit. You are programming yourself to be a POS."  

How am I programming myself to be a POS because I'm shooting at generic shaped silhouette targets???

Why do the Po-Leece train to shoot at human silhouette targets?

160524-copscarbine-08dt.JPG;w=960;h=640;

Because they don’t get much call for shooting pink unicorns? 

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20 minutes ago, mad said:
1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Why do the Po-Leece train to shoot at human silhouette targets?

160524-copscarbine-08dt.JPG;w=960;h=640;

Because they don’t get much call for shooting pink unicorns? 

That is likely a true statement, but you can never be too prepared in the event of a pink unicorn zombie apocalypse.

232486780097212.png?r1024x1024

 

8eed31db555d946f5264d3754ca3bcea.jpg

c9ea0bde6995f05a12dcb170d64a9636.jpg

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4 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Just like your history, just like your research, you have cherry-picked MADD. There is more than one lesson to be learned in what they did, how they did it, and even where it may go in the future. I've seen a few amazing AA counselors, and they were beautiful because they were hubris free. MADD created some powerful guys on the street, mate.

You keep circling back to AA. To distract from the conversation of MADD. Why is that I wonder? 

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2 hours ago, chinabald said:

You keep circling back to AA. 

I certainly do. Why is there a line-up at these meetings? Because judges send guys with DUI problems to AA, to get better, to become healed. Some wear ankle bracelets, and others blow into a device before driving. A third group attends meetings for a set period, to regain their driver licenses.

And MADD set all this up. They did a real number on a kid brother of mine, who went on to tangle with, and house, 200 junkies... 

MADD spawned the power and thunder that is now behind the AA. They both do great work  IMO, as they modify and improve behavior, one day at a time. Um, nobody knows why it works, but it does.

 

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8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I have repeatedly (there's that word again) said that what MADD brings to the table is behavior modification through education, outright shaming, and strict enforcement of the laws.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to call call BS on bad gun handling behavior such as the pic you recently showed of the father holding a gun to his infant kids head.  That guy should be in jail, IMHO.  I want it to be socially acceptable to lock parents up if they leave a gun laying around and a kid hurts themselves or others with it.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to refuse to sell a gun to someone with a shady history.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to mock and reject bad behavior with guns such as we see in the black gangsta pic series.  I WANT it to be socially acceptable to be locked up for a LONG LONG time if you commit a crime with a gun.  Just like we did with drunk drivers.  

First off, alcoholism is a disease.  But let's discuss how you are immersed in violent assumptions, galore.

Jeffie, I truly consider my tempered violence to be better than your own. And yours is better than the homeboy holding a baby at gun point, and he is okay because the pimp down the street has worse violence, not to mention the gansta hit men...who are better than Ted Bundy, IMO.  This is all very true.

But nobody is okay in such a genepool of violence, because of reaction.  Alcoholism is a disease, yes, and violence is contagious. What breaks the chain of violence is character, the fine soul who will rise above a situation, will try to be chill, will plan to turn the other cheek at some future U.S. regatta. NOT LETHAL REACTION BASED ON MALE POSTURING.

You don't need to be a drone using a violent groundwork, at all. 

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40 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

I certainly do. Why is there a line-up at these meetings? Because judges send guys with DUI problems to AA, to get better, to become healed. Some wear ankle bracelets, and others blow into a device before driving. A third group attends meetings for a set period, to regain their driver licenses.

And MADD set all this up. They did a real number on a kid brother of mine, who went on to tangle with, and house, 200 junkies... 

MADD spawned the power and thunder that is now behind the AA. They both do great work  IMO, as they modify and improve behavior, one day at a time. Um, nobody knows why it works, but it does.

 

You think MADD who started in the early 80s spawned AA who began in 1935? 

MADD did a hell of a job in changing the perception of DUI. But AA was a powerful force for good long before MADD came about.

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7 hours ago, mad said:

How am I programming myself to be a POS because I'm shooting at generic shaped silhouette targets???

You are training yourself to shoot humans. Yet you seek the root causes of violence?

Quote

Why do the Po-Leece train to shoot at human silhouette targets?

False equivalence. You are not the police. The state is granted a monopoly on violence, and Locke and Hobbs developed such an idea.

 

However, WRT police, Gary Slutkin develops community trust as part of his successful model. The non-epidemic areas re-asses violent values, and adopt confidence in law enforcement. The non-infested areas come to rely on due process by others. In their culture, they take the chip off their shoulders. In other words, they decide to back down from fights a lot. Pretty simple.

 

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34 minutes ago, chinabald said:

You think MADD who started in the early 80s spawned AA who began in 1935? 

MADD did a hell of a job in changing the perception of DUI. But AA was a powerful force for good long before MADD came about.

That's fine by me. But yo, I watched AA come into its own, from a watering hole, pickin' guitar after work. MADD plotted the course. MADD set the standards. MADD generated the attendance at AA. MADD changed behavior right and left, or proud men took the bus. AA was the mechanism for healing for a disease well-identified by MADD.

Then the screwups were bailed out and healed by AA, depending. The end.

 

I wonder how it will sort with U.S.violence and U.S. bloodbaths and shit.

MLK and MADD walk into a bar, to meet with Jeffie... 

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3 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

That's fine by me. But yo, I watched AA come into its own, from a watering hole. MADD plotted the course. MADD set the standards. MADD generated the attendants. MADD changed behavior right and left, or proud men took the bus. The screwups were bailed out and healed by AA.

So, MADD changed behavior that was dangerous. They didn't take away the devices that were tools of this bad behavior. They didn't try to stop the sale of cars, or of alcohol, they insisted on the laws being enforced. They publicized the outcome of DUI to gain support of the teens who were about to start driving, and drinking. They rallied mothers ans schools to talk about the dangers of dui... They didn't try to stop driving and they didn't try to stop drinking. They tried to stop drinking and driving, 2 behaviors together caused problems. 

They insisted on sentences be levied, they insisted on post infraction remedies.

How is that different they what Jeff and others have been saying about guns. Enforce the laws, Enforce the sentences, take away the gun rights from those who are convicted (felons), educate kids about guns, educate parents about proper gun safety/storage .... 

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38 minutes ago, chinabald said:

So, MADD changed behavior that was dangerous. They didn't take away the devices that were tools of this bad behavior. They didn't try to stop the sale of cars, or of alcohol, they insisted on the laws being enforced. They publicized the outcome of DUI to gain support of the teens who were about to start driving, and drinking. They rallied mothers ans schools to talk about the dangers of dui... They didn't try to stop driving and they didn't try to stop drinking. They tried to stop drinking and driving, 2 behaviors together caused problems. 

They insisted on sentences be levied, they insisted on post infraction remedies.

How is that different they what Jeff and others have been saying about guns. Enforce the laws, Enforce the sentences, take away the gun rights from those who are convicted (felons), educate kids about guns, educate parents about proper gun safety/storage .... 

MADD did a lot. Among other things, they identified and addressed a disease, alcoholism, and applied compassion and effective healing to it. They took the good and the bad out of it, and applied changes in behavior which addressed the problem. Thru AA, they addressed the core of the problem, internal within each man and woman, with effective counselling. MADD helped to manage and heal a disease, okay?

Alcoholism had been mis-diagnosed, in terms of good vs, bad, in a cheap moral framework...which didn't work. And MADD sorted that shit.

Quote

The longstanding misdiagnosis of violence, which Dr. Slutkin, Founder and Executive Director of Cure Violence, often explains as being as archaic as the “solutions” that were used to “treat” the plague –

  • flagellation movements;
  • widows suspected of witchcraft drowned in moats or burned at the stake;
  • Jewish communities, scapegoated as culprits, razed to the ground –

have their parallels in

  • increased prosecution,
  • super max prisons, and
  • mass incarceration.

Now is the time to reverse the damage produced by this misdiagnoisis. If violence can be re-understood through the lens of contagion as a disease, it can be treated and prevented as one.

http://cureviolence.org/violence-interruption/treating-violence-as-an-epidemic/

 

 

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4 hours ago, chinabald said:

MADD created some powerful guys on the street, mate.

Um did you see Steve Earle as a drug counselor in The Wire?

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2 hours ago, jocal505 said:
10 hours ago, mad said:

How am I programming myself to be a POS because I'm shooting at generic shaped silhouette targets???

 You are training yourself to shoot humans. Yet you seek the root causes of violence?

Quote

Why do the Po-Leece train to shoot at human silhouette targets?

False equivalence. You are not the police. The state is granted a monopoly on violence, and Locke and Hobbs developed such an idea.

 

However, WRT police, Gary Slutkin develops community trust as part of his successful model. The non-epidemic areas re-asses violent values, and adopt confidence in law enforcement. The non-infested areas come to rely on due process by others. In their culture, they take the chip off their shoulders. In other words, they decide to back down from fights a lot. Pretty simple.

Sort your quotes out Jo, I didn’t say that. <_<

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6 hours ago, chinabald said:

You think MADD who started in the early 80s spawned AA who began in 1935?

Joe has long been a firm believer in time travel.

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On 10/26/2018 at 12:33 AM, Shootist Jeff said:

Nor do women who train with a handgun to defend themselves against rape train to defend against rapist paper circles with bullseyes on them.

You are actively conditioning women for violence, with guns. But you want the root causes of violence addressed, before managing gunplay. 

You are generating the gun violence probem, two different ways. You are flat-out offering violence as a solution, then training others in LETHAL violence.

It is the progression of violence, and you are the active agent.

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On 10/26/2018 at 9:00 AM, jocal505 said:

You are training yourself to shoot humans. Yet you seek the root causes of violence?

Yes, I am.  Humans who attack and seek to harm other humans.  Its called "self-defense".  You may have heard of it.  

And the root causes of violence are neither me shooting paper silhouette targets or someone defending themself against a shitbag violent attacker.  

On 10/26/2018 at 9:00 AM, jocal505 said:
Quote

Why do the Po-Leece train to shoot at human silhouette targets?

False equivalence. You are not the police. The state is granted a monopoly on violence, and Locke and Hobbs developed such an idea.

Wrong!  Private citizens have also been granted the right to self-defense.  Actually, it was already an inalienable right, but our laws have further codified it.  Police shoot paper silhouette targets to they train correctly should a situation arise where they have to use their gun to defend themselves or others.  Same applies with a private citizen.  "Train like you Fight!"

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On 10/26/2018 at 9:07 AM, jocal505 said:

MLK and MADD walk into a bar, to meet with Jeffie... 

..... so we can all laugh at you while enjoy our scotch.  

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On 10/26/2018 at 9:52 AM, jocal505 said:
On 10/26/2018 at 9:19 AM, chinabald said:

So, MADD changed behavior that was dangerous. They didn't take away the devices that were tools of this bad behavior. They didn't try to stop the sale of cars, or of alcohol, they insisted on the laws being enforced. They publicized the outcome of DUI to gain support of the teens who were about to start driving, and drinking. They rallied mothers ans schools to talk about the dangers of dui... They didn't try to stop driving and they didn't try to stop drinking. They tried to stop drinking and driving, 2 behaviors together caused problems. 

They insisted on sentences be levied, they insisted on post infraction remedies.

How is that different they what Jeff and others have been saying about guns. Enforce the laws, Enforce the sentences, take away the gun rights from those who are convicted (felons), educate kids about guns, educate parents about proper gun safety/storage .... 

MADD did a lot. Among other things, they identified and addressed a disease, alcoholism, and applied compassion and effective healing to it. They took the good and the bad out of it, and applied changes in behavior which addressed the problem. Thru AA, they addressed the core of the problem, internal within each man and woman, with effective counselling. MADD helped to manage and heal a disease, okay?

Alcoholism had been mis-diagnosed, in terms of good vs, bad, in a cheap moral framework...which didn't work. And MADD sorted that shit.

What you're continually missing, or deliberately ignoring (my $$ is on the later) is that the disease here is Violence.  Not gunz.  

Look, I have absolutely no arguments with Slutkin about treating violence as a contagion.  I think its a good approach.  But again, the contagion here is not gunz - its what in people's hearts and their brains and how they are wired or conditioned.  

And nobody is arguing that MADD did what it did.  I have been saying this for literally years here.  You are finally AGREEING with me about behavioral changes being the correct avenue to addressing the violence problem.  And I don't dispute that alcoholism is a disease.  Violence is a disease too.  Treat them similar.  

But again, going back to the MADD model that you have now finally embraced - go back and re-read even your own words about MADD.  MADD did a lot of good.  But what they did NOT do was:

  1. Advocate for the general ban or heavily restricting the sale of cars or booze
  2. They did not demonize cars or booze as "agents" of the problem.
  3. They did not claim that cars or booze were causal factors in DUI

What they did was rightly keep the focus on the human being and his/her choices they made with regard to how they treated and handled those two toolz.  Combating the scourge of DUI was always about holding the individual accountable for their actions and working on ways to prevent them from making a bad choice or getting into a dangerous situation.  MADD looked at cars and booze essentially neutrally.  When used responsibly - neither were dangerous things.  

As a society, we are grudgingly finally coming around to the notion that the scourge of drug addiction can only be cured by treating it as a medical condition rather than as a criminal act.  You see how well bans on drugs has solved the US drug problem over the last 40 years or so.  I would say that tactic has done nothing but set us back 40 years.  And it has caused countless deaths and generations of destruction of lives and families.  

 

MADD is the right way, but its not what you think it is wrt to gunz.

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It's pretty hard to separate guns and violence. One seems to compel the other; there is a robust correlation between them. You are writing like a choirboy now, but RTC laws show increases if violent crime in the double digits. And the Gun Violence Archives show other double digit problems, over a brief tmespan, four years.

I think I know why. Hey choirboy, what was the deal where you thought that 26 DGU deaths were "a good start" to offset 26 perp homicides? Because that is where your brain goes with with this, making justifications at every  step of the way, on your way to ULTRA VIIOENCE>

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3 hours ago, jocal505 said:

It's pretty hard to separate guns and violence. One seems to compel the other; there is a robust correlation between them. You are writing like a choirboy now, but RTC laws show increases if violent crime in the double digits. And the Gun Violence Archives show other double digit problems, over a brief tmespan, four years.

I think I know why. Hey choirboy, what was the deal where you thought that 26 DGU deaths were "a good start" to offset 26 perp homicides? Because that is where your brain goes with with this, making justifications at every  step of the way, on your way to ULTRA VIIOENCE>

Didn't alcohol, by this fucked up logic then also "compel" DUI??  Why didn't MADD try banning and heavily regulating booze if that was the case?

Your savior slutkin I suspect, strongly disagrees with your take on this about gunz "compelling" violence.  If you read his work on violence prevention, he focuses on human behavior, education and gaining trust in a community.  He purposely stays away from these 3rd rail issues specifically because he knows it would derail the real work on the root causes.  Its why MADD stayed away from legislating booze.  Because they knew it was a loser strategy.  You need to wake up, mate.

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45 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Didn't alcohol, by this fucked up logic then also "compel" DUI??  Why didn't MADD try banning and heavily regulating booze if that was the case?

Why was DiFi's kitty chasing it's tail? Nobody knows, but fortunately, it doesn't matter much.  I leave you now with this burnng question ^^^, and with not banning cars as the only take-home from MADD. See ya later.

 

45 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You need to wake up, mate.

Big Jeff, the Shootist, sits down for a scotch with Gary. The Shootist reaches out, in rare form, real-choirboy-like. And he discovers his values are supporting the gangstas, that he operates just the same as they do. Gary is sensitive and aware, he's cool. The words Cease FIre never come up.

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2 hours ago, jocal505 said:
2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Didn't alcohol, by this fucked up logic then also "compel" DUI??  Why didn't MADD try banning and heavily regulating booze if that was the case?

Why was DiFi's kitty chasing it's tail? Nobody knows, but fortunately, it doesn't matter much.  I leave you now with this burnng question ^^^, and with not banning cars as the only take-home from MADD. See ya later.

Jesus, you're such a transparent fucking coward when you hit a question you know you cannot answer - lest it destroy your entire life's narrative.  Don't try to turn the question around, answer it!!!  

Q:  Why didn't MADD try banning and heavily regulating booze since it was obviously a compelling force in DUIs??

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Your savior slutkin I suspect, strongly disagrees with your take on this about gunz "compelling" violence.  If you read his work on violence prevention, he focuses on human behavior, education and gaining trust in a community.  He purposely stays away from these 3rd rail issues specifically because he knows it would derail the real work on the root causes.  Its why MADD stayed away from legislating booze.  Because they knew it was a loser strategy.  You need to wake up, mate.

Why can't you address this since you seem to be in love with slutkin these days???  Do you dispute what I wrote above?

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Why can't you adYerdress this since you seem to be in love with slutkin these days???  Do you dispute what I wrote above?

 

Jeff:  Q#1:  Why didn't MADD try banning and heavily regulating booze since it was obviously a compelling force in DUIs??

Joe: Q # 2 How many Pooplei can fit on the head of a mushroom-shaped wanger? I gotta know.

 

 

We are going to face gansta thought patterns ane violence together, no matter what the answer is to your limited query. Brain wave scans and brain pattern analysis will be able to track the effects of the Jeffie-type thinking within a decade or so. It may suck to be you at some point.

Slutkin in careful. He's on an important humanitarian mission. His outcome challenges your thinking, directly. Only one of you will prevail.

Quote

Your savior slutkin I suspect, strongly disagrees with your take on this about gunz "compelling" violence.  If you read his work on violence prevention, he focuses on human behavior, education and gaining trust in a community.  He purposely stays away from these 3rd rail issues specifically because he knows it would derail the real work on the root causes. 

Correct, Gary Slutkin's focus is on violence, directly, not guns, as such. He evolved, Jeffie, and this addresses the core problem, finally. But get a good grasp of this bit. Slutkin's challenge to these epidemics began as Cease FIre. 

 

fifty cent.jpg

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15 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
On 10/26/2018 at 9:07 AM, jocal505 said:

MLK and MADD walk into a bar, to meet with Jeffie... 

..... so we can all laugh at you while enjoy our scotch.  

Slutkin would hire me, I think. And MLK would probably hang with me for a bit, since I followed gangstas around...with the Letter from BIrmingham Jail for protection. I'm unsure what MADD would think about me, just because.

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17 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

  But again, the contagion here is not gunz - its what in people's hearts and their brains 

My database is creepy because of the creepy behavior it chronicles. For two years I didn''t want such scum on my laptop, and quotes about certain matters were demanded. I decided to document the garbage.

I have been race-baited by one community guy for longer than 3.5 years, and rape-baiting happens by two gun afficianados, in tandem. MLK's church becomes the butt of trailer park discourse. Judge Taney sets the tone for racial understanding. Another gunlover anarchist was blood thirty, would shoot certain perps in the back, depending. (It was later denied.)            its what in people's hearts and their brains 

Need I go on, mates? Peer review is gleefully discarded. Priorities for Research (the outline for cause-related gun study) is mis-quoted, but otherwise ignored. Data is blocked, and a gun research ban within the HHS is mandated...        its what in people's hearts and their brains 

 

Quote

and how they are wired or conditioned.  

Okay, we agree. Violent conditioning can be de-programmed. And you want that, right?

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7 hours ago, jocal505 said:

I have been race-baited

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race-baiting

No you haven't, Joe. What happened is that you scream "race-baiter" if anyone even mentions race in here. If you ever were race-baited (click on the link for details), it was when you put on the G.A. beret and acted as a vigilante.

Meanwhile, your own record of racist statements in the forum gets ignored by yourself.

9 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Slutkin would hire me, I think.

Joe, I didn't realize you were really trying to have a stand-up comedy act.

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12 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

Joe, I didn't realize you were really trying to have a stand-up comedy act.

No I don’t think so. I am beginning to believe his therapist has mandated this as some sort of healing to attempt to distract him from the voices in his head. It’s probably safer if we all just continue to indulge him. 

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57 minutes ago, bpm57 said:
10 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Slutkin would hire me, I think.

Joe, I didn't realize you were really trying to have a stand-up comedy act.

q.What is the hardest part of violence reduction for Slutkin?

a. Filling the "guy on the streets" role, finding the guy to face the troubled. 


I did the job for eight years, five of them in hardcore inner cities. Puget Sound looked unreal from there, but I could clearly see what certain elk had done.

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1 hour ago, bpm57 said:

No you haven't, Joe. What happened is that you scream "race-baiter" if anyone even mentions race in here.

Chicago is one angle, and there have been a few others.

Please don't deny the (extended) race-baiter bit around here. Don't ignore it, either, you are probably too fine for that. There are no up sides to race-baiting, and we have no need to shit on MLK, or on the successfu use of non-violence. Right?

This is fun. I love thus place, and now somebody figured Chicago out (and thirteen other sites of vioence epidemics).

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16 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Boothy, exit wound, Tommy Lee Jones.PNG

I don't see any mention of race..

Did you pick the wrong memegenerator gif?

1 hour ago, jocal505 said:

Please don't deny the (extended) race-baiter bit around here.

Well Joe, people have been trying for a while.. even going so far as to make a thread for one of the examples.. to get you to explain the racist posts that you wrote.

Sad to say Joe, quoting a line from the Dred Scott opinion is not "race-baiting".

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1 hour ago, jocal505 said:

I could clearly see what certain elk had done.

It was all the fault of libertarians, wasn't it?

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19 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

I don't see any mention of race..

Did you pick the wrong memegenerator gif?

Boothy was not the brightest, but he led the dog pack around here. He was a bpm on steroids with fifty guns. FACT: he wanted the black gangstas to neutralize one another, to improve the world. 

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15 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

It was all the fault of libertarians, wasn't it?

It was a combination of idiots acting out-of-sorts with decency, and acting out-of-sorts with the Civil Rights Act, very subtly. Those elk need to hide behind race-baiting. They weaponize the issue to prevent progress, basically.  Mark K prescribed it in the racist comment thread, which was another race-baiter activity.

You guys are messing with the wrong person. From the cold and dark streets, seeing the hope and stamina of the discarded, I wanted a voice.

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9 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

Sad to say Joe, quoting a line from the Dred Scott opinion is not "race-baiting".

Why are you showing up for an important performance with a beater?

 

Your statement is true, but undeveloped. Now take it to the bank for me. Guide Judge Taney to a state of mind that works in the troubled "Chicaco" situation. We aren't done until Taney has his shit together, because that is what we need.

Smug, violent, pricks cooing about Chicago is what got us here. 

 

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23 hours ago, jocal505 said:

It's pretty hard to separate guns and violence. One seems to compel the other; there is a robust correlation between them. You are writing like a choirboy now, but RTC laws show increases if violent crime in the double digits. And the Gun Violence Archives show other double digit problems, over a brief tmespan, four years.

I think I know why. Hey choirboy, what was the deal where you thought that 26 DGU deaths were "a good start" to offset 26 perp homicides? Because that is where your brain goes with with this, making justifications at every  step of the way, on your way to ULTRA VIIOENCE>

You have or at least had guns. Did you ever feel compelled by them to create violence with them? I have a couple, I’ve never felt like I should use them to shoot anyone. 

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12 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Why are you showing up for an important performance with a beater?

Translate that to English?

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22 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

You guys are messing with the wrong person.

Threatening anyone who disagrees with you again, Joe? Always an interesting sight when someone who claims to be a pacifist throws out threats.

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2 minutes ago, chinabald said:

You have or at least had guns. Did you ever feel compelled by them to create violence with them? I have a couple, I’ve never felt like I should use them to shoot anyone. 

I'm a Gandhi student, dude. I temper violence pretty heavily. So what good is my answer to you. 

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5 minutes ago, bpm57 said:
18 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

Why are you showing up for an important performance with a beater?

Translate that to English?

We are sorting race, and you play the Dred Scott card. Were you a bench warmer or something?

NGS Trailer Park.JPG

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11 minutes ago, bpm57 said:

Threatening anyone who disagrees with you again, Joe? Always an interesting sight when someone who claims to be a pacifist throws out threats.

Come one, come all. I gave at the office, as a violence interrupter well before crack cocaine hit. And I am a self-admitted racist who seeks better ways.

Watch. If you are going to race-bait me, we're gonna discuss idiots, and violence.

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9 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

We are sorting race, and you play the Dred Scott card.

Your complete inability to understand a point makes it "race-baiting"?

I've given you a definition of "race-baiting", Joe. Which one is it, you read it but don't understand it, or are you "figuring" you get to make up the definition?

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16 minutes ago, jocal505 said:

I'm a Gandhi student, dude. I temper violence pretty heavily. So what good is my answer to you. 

It is always funny to watch an antigunner (who owned guns) explain why _their_ guns were Ok, but those owned by non-grabbers are bad.

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Dred Scott. Since this is about your comfort zone, I'll just meet you on the bunny hill of racial discussion.