nmanno

Carbon3 trimaran coming to Hong Kong

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Hi all,

Whilst I am not an avid writer on the forums, I love reading them.

I wanted to cut the lead mine loose for at least 8 years and never dared to make the move.

I am happy to report that the purchase of Carbon3, the Nigel Irens designed 40ft trimaran has been completed and will hopefully soon make her way to Hong Kong.

What I love about this hobby is the steep learning curve and I am excited about this huge wall of new experience I am facing BUT I will need your guys help.

I have limited knowledge of these larger multis (I have raced F18) and so I may be asking for many questions when the boat arrives and we need to get it rigged and prepared for racing in the area.

The programme will be to sail it for 1 year inshore and coastal to see if the scare factor is manageable and then refit and modify her a bit to be able to do short double handed offshore stints on top of the inshore/coastal agenda.

My first question starts with: she weights c.1.8t, is 12m long and 10m wide. what sort of outboard power would you recommend to purchase to get her out of the harbour. Will a 6HP suffice?

Obviously I want to keep her as light as possible.

Thanks

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Woah.  No input other than 6hp sounds pretty low for all that windage. 

Sounds like an amazing ride. Please keep us posted!

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In both light and heavy wind - "When in doubt, sheet out."

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I have an F40, also an Irens, but a cat from '86. It nominally weighs 1.8 tonnes, is 12m long and 8m wide, so a little less windage than your boat but a little more hydrodynamic drag. I have a high thrust 9.9hp Yamaha that is mounted centrally and rotates with the rudders. It is plenty of power in flat water and no wind or current, typically we do around 5kts on less than 30% throttle for pootling around, but it is woefully inadequate in any wind or current, so we need to plan carefully.

This inadequacy is not a lack of power, per se, but a lack of traction. It's mounted on the aft beam, so 1.6m from the transom, but in waves greater than 1m the prop comes out the water. Winds greater than about 20kts will stop it in the gusts, with the propeller cavitating, but the engine doesn't bog. Steerage in any wind is dreadful if the motor is fixed, but is good with the motor turning with the rudders. In stronger winds I drop one board about 0.5m and steerage is then very good, with precise control and turning in a boat length.

Having said the above, these boats sail so well that, although I have motored in wind and waves to see how it goes, the reality is that you'll be sailing 99% of the time if there is any breeze, so your requirements will be mostly getting in and out of marinas, etc. Mine is on a swinging mooring, so I can sail on and off it most of the time, but I have to negotiate a lock gate with strong currents to get from the mooring to open ocean, and that can be fraught. It is this requirement that has me thinking about upgrading. The first upgrade will be to mount the Yamaha another 1.5m forward, which I think will solve most issues with the prop coming out, at a cost of maneuverability.

I would not think 6hp would be enough in anything but flat calm conditions, but whatever size you have, you must ensure the prop is deep enough with the boat pitching in waves, so mounting on your transom won't be very effective. First port of call for advice would be Nigel. He will have the data required to give you a better estimate of required power, and can advise on placement knowing the structural arrangement of the boat.

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congratulations

sorry to see it leave Denmark

6 hp is fine if fuck all breeze - probably not if you have much wind at all

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I have a long shaft Yamaha 15-hp with the lower pitch, high thrust prop. I also put those off the shelf fins/wings on the lower unit. They're meant to help planing but they prevent cavitation, especially in reverse. Big help. 

 

As hump101 said, the platform pitching is the major problem. You want the prop as low as possible without drenching the cowling. 

 

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Congratulations!

I have a tri which is about half your new boat (30 ft and ~ 1000 kg) and 6 hp on the transom. Made every experience Hump describes and I wouldn`t like to go out with a smaller engine. Especially in small  harbour with plenty of wind from the side it helps if you can accelerate your boat to keep somewhat in control. I saw the guys move your new boat under those conditions and they used a Zodiac with more horsepower on the back than my car has.

Plus I learned people find it endearing when you go alongside their brand new yacht with 8 knots.

 

 

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What offshore events are you thinking of? If they are run using ISAF’s offshore special regs then there are minimum requirements your engine installation will need to meet.

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Thanks for the input. At the moment, my latest problem is getting the boat from Kiel in Germany to Hamburg as that's where I managed to get a container ship to bring my boat to Asia....not too much fun in late October, when it's getting really cold and dark there!?

Anyhow, for the outboard, I'll test a 6-7hp and then see if I need to move onto the 10hp model. I really need it to get out of the marina as once out, it will be so much more efficient and faster to unfurl the sails....

 

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9.9 hp extra long Yamaha should do the job no problem.

secret is a shaft extension to make it longer again.

Then it will push it easily.

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Kiel to Hamburg means two days of motoring - one day Kiel Canal and one day up the river Elbe. Make sure you get an outboard that`s sufficient  ;-)

I would offer you my help but I'll be gone to the med in late October. To cold and dark.

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Where in Hong Kong will you keep her? If you're up in Shelter Cove you're only going to need the outboard to get past the Nam Wai gap so no issues of a big sea. If you're in the harbour or Aberdeen you will have to deal with more chop and control getting it into the YC. Discovery/Clearwater Bay etc should also be fairly straight forward.

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On 9/29/2018 at 11:15 AM, soma said:

I have a long shaft Yamaha 15-hp with the lower pitch, high thrust prop. I also put those off the shelf fins/wings on the lower unit. They're meant to help planing but they prevent cavitation, especially in reverse. Big help. 

 

As hump101 said, the platform pitching is the major problem. You want the prop as low as possible without drenching the cowling. 

 

Many years ago had this issue - drenching the cowling - with a past boat we owned.  The water being ingested through the outboard's air intake was a constant problem.  Eventually sealed off that air intake usually at bottom of cowling/upper unit and built a snorkle as an air intake on top of the cowling.  Sooooo much nicer and much fewer problems.

5 hours ago, nmanno said:

Thanks for the input. At the moment, my latest problem is getting the boat from Kiel in Germany to Hamburg as that's where I managed to get a container ship to bring my boat to Asia....not too much fun in late October, when it's getting really cold and dark there!?

Anyhow, for the outboard, I'll test a 6-7hp and then see if I need to move onto the 10hp model. I really need it to get out of the marina as once out, it will be so much more efficient and faster to unfurl the sails....

 

Might you be better off hiring a power boat and towing it (at much higher speed)?

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Does that boat even have a companionway hatch? Totally sick ride but doesn't look well suited to offshore work with the lack of interior space in the central hull...

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Outboard: IMO  FWIW  .......My Cat is 38ft (2.2 ton) I have a heavy honda 20hp XL leg with high thrust prop and hydraulic trim/tilt (50kg).The Yamy 9.9hp is 36 kg. I would not go back to less. When needed, which is not often, that extra few horses can save your bacon. Next time I would buy without the trim/tilt and without electric start to save some weight (I guess around 5-6kg).

Fuel I worked out at around 5-6 litres  an hour and was making 6-7 knots (no sea no wind)

We just had a regatta where the second inshore race was canceled due to 30 knots or more and at one stage i was motoring into it (flat water) at about 1 knot. Would I give up my  20hp in favor of a 9.9  to save 10 ish kg..? No way... Find other stuff to save that weight. I just bought 2 x Ally race anchors and saved 20kg right there. Have a good look around the boat and you may find other savings like soft shackles instead of stainless ones.

I also have it rigged with steering and it makes a huge difference in tight spots and is less than 300 extra grams.. win win

The snorkel on the cowling  is also a great idea when tilted up.

Your boat is awesome... congrats on the purchase and welcome to easy speed

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Gorgeous boat, congratulations. IMO any modification of will most likely ruin her... 

 

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15 hours ago, CBGB said:

Gorgeous boat, congratulations. IMO any modification of will most likely ruin her... 

 

Dunno - I would love to see some lifting foils on that boat - maybe not fully foiling but maybe a 50% lift 

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I sail on and off my swing mooring but, if I use the outboard, it's only good in flat water.

It's actually more of a circus than sailing on and off, because it's a 3 hp with no clutch - start it and away we go.  So I can start it while on the mooring, run forward which lifts the prop out before overunning the mooring, pull the bow clear, release the mooring and race to the helm.  The boat does 2 to 3 knots at idle, 5 knots cruising.

30' tri, 750 kgs, nothing flash, fun.

You have a lot more windage but it sure is gorgeous.

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Hi guys, thanks for all the comments. Very useful to have your perspectives. I know get the long shaft version. 

I am now planning of having 2 outboards. One for "relatively" longer passages, 20HP, gas powered and one for the onshore day races...small electric outboard to get in and out of the harbour.

With regards to mods, don't get me wrong, I am not planning of making major changes as that would indeed ruin this light and fast appraoch and the coastal races/offshore races here are max 2-3 days, so a small hatch, a bean bag inside to sleep, an autopilot and a couple of other minor things. I am not planning on doing the coastal races with a big crew, just double handed. 

On the foils, the boat was developed to add foils but the speeds achieved with the conventional boards were such, and they won all the races they entered that the previous owners decided not to add them. It can be done and certainly once I get more to grips with her, I wouldn't exclude this, but it's always about cost vs additional speed/fun factor...and as I mentioned above, I am an amateur and don't race with a pro crew, so I don't want it to become too dangerous.

 

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Yeah don’t get an electric engine battery combo. Just get a smaller gas one. 

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I’m glad I read to the end of this thread to read you that you got a 20hp. Good boy! 

Now I can go to sleep and not expect to wake up and read that a guy just bought a gorgeous 40’ racing tri but wrote it off because he only had a toy motor on it. 

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On the topic of outboards. What's the best way to attach it at the back of the main hull. I'd like a system like the seacart 30 with rails to protect the outboard a bit when tilted. Anyone has some good pictures on how this can get done or any ideas if there is an off the shelf solution? 

 

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15 hours ago, nmanno said:

On the topic of outboards. What's the best way to attach it at the back of the main hull. I'd like a system like the seacart 30 with rails to protect the outboard a bit when tilted. Anyone has some good pictures on how this can get done or any ideas if there is an off the shelf solution? 

 

Custom made bracket and slide so when retracted the whole lot sits on the deck. Sportboats do it all the time. Also gets weight in a bit.

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On trimaran Big Bird (30’ 2.5t) I put a long leg Yammy 9.9 on the typical roller track system aprox 1.2m long on the afterdeck behind the rear beam. 

Worked a treat.

I put it to one side of the transom hung rudder to leave space on thecafter deck and so a boarding ladder could be fitted to the other side of the rudder which made it easier for less nimble picnic swimmers to get back on board after swimming. Actually, it was easier for everyone.  

note: boarding ladders need to have the tops of the hand rails to be higher than top step to facilitate climbing up and down. The ss round top ones work well and come with key lock fittings that won’t slice feet.

Anyways, back to the outboard bracket. It was mounted on  4 roller bearing cars and was uncleared and rolled down to the back of the afterdeck before kicking it down and putting a button stop in front of the car. A wire strop stopped it rolling off the back. 

The tracks, you’ll find, will need to be mounted to all the way to end of the afterdeck or even have a little bit of an overhang.

Also, you’ll need a blocking device (I just used a standard button stop on the track) to stop the outboard leg pushing forward against the transom when in forward gear. 

I used a rope and cleat to keep the motor forward when it was not deployed. 

I had a bit of stainless plate sika’d on the transom and folded on the afterdeck between the train tracks to protect from the inevitable bumps n dings from the outboard leg. 

The advantages of kicking the motor up and rolling it forward are:

1) getting weight off the transom which is slow, slow slow. 

2) the leg is not sticking out the back catching all manner of stuff. Eg ropes, other boats, dinghys, fishing lines etc.

3) you can work on the motor more comfortably and have less chance of dropping bits and tools in the drink 

4) makes changing the props when the 1st one spins out the centre hub rubber bush is a doodle.

Will that happen?

Of course it will.

But it won’t be a drama because you will have bought a spare prop and know how (and have the tools at the ready) to replace it in a flash because that rubber bush is designed to spin out and it will happen at night, near rocks, when you’re tired, in a big onshore breeze with lots of waves. 

5) protects the motor from getting dunked by a million waves. 

Cheers, Stephen. 

Ps. Oh yeah. You’re 20hp is gonna have the extra long leg, right? 

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We did the delivery of the tri the previous weekend.

We got a Suzuki 20HP installed at the back, and the engine is plenty enough to do 8-9knts at full speed and cruising at 6-7knts at 3,000 rpm, so perfect for the boat...and that was using the boat with quite a lot of weight, as it had all the sails onboard and more. Even with wind and some waves, we only had the engine out of the water a couple of times only.

The boat is now on a container ship and on her way to Hong Kong. Sailing is about to get much more fun!

Btw, what a nice boat!

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On 11/6/2019 at 11:35 PM, 40Plus said:

Any updates? Curious to know how things are going. 

Well, it was a blast as long as it lasted. First outing we did 23knts and that was taking it easy as I'd never sailed on such a large and performance multihull. You get used to the speed but I was still happy everytime I would come back to its mooring after a day of sailing without incident.

The mast broke though on the the 5th test sail....and since then I've been crying and sorting out insurance requests (already 6months!)...and I need to order a new mast this week.

Since the boat won't be operational for a while, I am also going to do a small refit to have a proper access to the interior, at the moment it's not really practical. For the outboard, the 20HP is more than enough and was great for the delivery. That said, it's too heavy hanging at the back of the boat and so I am now considering going for a smaller electric motor (8HP model) knowing all the limitations and issues that comes with it. Either a pod that stays under water or an outboard that can stowed inside the boat when we are sailing.

It will be fun again once she returns to her full glory.

 

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8 hours ago, nmanno said:

 

Well, it was a blast as long as it lasted. First outing we did 23knts and that was taking it easy as I'd never sailed on such a large and performance multihull. You get used to the speed but I was still happy everytime I would come back to its mooring after a day of sailing without incident.

The mast broke though on the the 5th test sail....and since then I've been crying and sorting out insurance requests (already 6months!)...and I need to order a new mast this week.

Since the boat won't be operational for a while, I am also going to do a small refit to have a proper access to the interior, at the moment it's not really practical. For the outboard, the 20HP is more than enough and was great for the delivery. That said, it's too heavy hanging at the back of the boat and so I am now considering going for a smaller electric motor (8HP model) knowing all the limitations and issues that comes with it. Either a pod that stays under water or an outboard that can stowed inside the boat when we are sailing.

It will be fun again once she returns to her full glory.

 

"The mast broke ..."

Any idea about the root cause?

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22 hours ago, Mordoc said:

"The mast broke ..."

Any idea about the root cause?

We were sailing in 20-25knts of wind on a reach. We had 3 reefs in the the J3, we were playing it safe as still getting to grips with the tri. We heard a loud bang and then a crack and the mast came down in 2 pieces (pretty much in the middle). Our assumption is a carbon diamond stay broke (first bang). Why that happened, unknown though as it was 2 years old, kept in a storage outside of sunlight.

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1 hour ago, nmanno said:

We were sailing in 20-25knts of wind on a reach. We had 3 reefs in the the J3, we were playing it safe as still getting to grips with the tri. We heard a loud bang and then a crack and the mast came down in 2 pieces (pretty much in the middle). Our assumption is a carbon diamond stay broke (first bang). Why that happened, unknown though as it was 2 years old, kept in a storage outside of sunlight.

It reminds me of the Rapido incident at ARC2018. I am under the impression that a (deeply) reefed sails plan is most dangerous for the mast. To find the right (safe) balance is not a simple exercise.

 

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On 11/10/2019 at 4:56 PM, nmanno said:

 

Well, it was a blast as long as it lasted. First outing we did 23knts and that was taking it easy as I'd never sailed on such a large and performance multihull. You get used to the speed but I was still happy everytime I would come back to its mooring after a day of sailing without incident.

The mast broke though on the the 5th test sail....and since then I've been crying and sorting out insurance requests (already 6months!)...and I need to order a new mast this week.

Since the boat won't be operational for a while, I am also going to do a small refit to have a proper access to the interior, at the moment it's not really practical. For the outboard, the 20HP is more than enough and was great for the delivery. That said, it's too heavy hanging at the back of the boat and so I am now considering going for a smaller electric motor (8HP model) knowing all the limitations and issues that comes with it. Either a pod that stays under water or an outboard that can stowed inside the boat when we are sailing.

It will be fun again once she returns to her full glory.

 

Thanks for the reply, I hope the insurance request goes smoothly for you and you are back out on the water soon. 

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Third reef in mainsail? Did you have a running backstay or checkstay set?

    If the main headboard is too far down the mast with no babystay or checkstay in the vicinity it can cause the mast tube to fail. 

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13 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Third reef in mainsail? Did you have a running backstay or checkstay set?

    If the main headboard is too far down the mast with no babystay or checkstay in the vicinity it can cause the mast tube to fail. 

No, we didn't havea  backstay or checkstay...the mast was a weird concept with double spreaders and double diamonds and side stays. 

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1 hour ago, nmanno said:

No, we didn't havea  backstay or checkstay...the mast was a weird concept with double spreaders and double diamonds and side stays. 

Rotating and canting?

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i seriously looked at Carbon3 to replace my previos multi's... but to me to get if properly offshore was going to cost +++, inboard motor, (as 40ft) decent accommodation etc etc.

I cant remember who the rig was by... but IMHO Marstrom are the 'go to' guys for rigs, not the cheapest, but so far I've not managed to break any rig they have supplied... and i have tried hard!

 

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17 hours ago, SSolo said:

i seriously looked at Carbon3 to replace my previos multi's... but to me to get if properly offshore was going to cost +++, inboard motor, (as 40ft) decent accommodation etc etc.

I cant remember who the rig was by... but IMHO Marstrom are the 'go to' guys for rigs, not the cheapest, but so far I've not managed to break any rig they have supplied... and i have tried hard!

 

Carbon 3 had a Marström mast. 

According to one of the former owners the design started with a Marström mast tube that was available for a descent price. Neel then designed the boat for that mast.

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Do you mean Nigel (Irens)?

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On 11/14/2019 at 11:23 PM, SSolo said:

i seriously looked at Carbon3 to replace my previos multi's... but to me to get if properly offshore was going to cost +++, inboard motor, (as 40ft) decent accommodation etc etc.

I cant remember who the rig was by... but IMHO Marstrom are the 'go to' guys for rigs, not the cheapest, but so far I've not managed to break any rig they have supplied... and i have tried hard!

 

Yes, the mast was Marstrom and was a very nice one, the only thing I wasn't a fan of, was the 2 spreader rig (too many stays, too many weak points). I believe the diamond stay gave up and hence the mast broke. 

I looked at the boat for a while too before making the leap. I am indeed planning on making small changes to the boat to be able to use it shorthanded for short offshore passages (4 days max but that should go far with that boat!). I am quite excited to have this project on hand but I would  love to live in a better place where there are many yards that know what they do so that I can trust the job will be well done.

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i believe i was one of the first to use that Marstrom section (Mollymawk, Nic Bailey 40ft tri) offshore - we had double diamond single spreader rig. The Laminate shed was by John Levell, that rig as was absolutely Ross (and bomb) proof.

 

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