barfy

The Winning Foils AC36

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We are getting a first look at foil progression by INEOS Team UK on their test platform. Thought a new thread as per last cycle would be appropriate as again, these will be revolutionary appendages.

ineosFlap.jpg.4112105b20aeed358342cd884a1cfb54.jpg

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The shiny bit at the end of the foil in the last picture is consistent with the highlights on the water and the rest of the boat. Highly polished and planar.

 

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leading to this point... along with other foil photos and graphics posted in this thread:

 

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On 6/21/2018 at 8:45 PM, nav said:

I note that they have used the foil wing arrangement (Mercedes 'star') they showed in their earlier renderings of their 75 - must think it's good, not just for style after all.

 

On 6/21/2018 at 10:08 PM, Stingray~ said:

The angle between the wings?

 

image.png.dcb4848e85b6ace2adde8631313b085c.png

 

image.thumb.png.e604eade8c602c9c1704791d4b243a8a.png

 

35745626_10160545336115611_7425941533582

 

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On 6/22/2018 at 1:33 AM, Stingray~ said:

There will be a foil wings shape steady development progression, probably like last time from ‘safest’ to fastest. 

 

On 6/22/2018 at 12:24 PM, nav said:

Obviously.....but it's not as if the starting point for each group will necessarily be the same.

If you looked you would see that three quite different initial ideas, crude as they may be, have been shown in early drawings and videos from ETNZ/LR, Magic and Ineos.

Ineos is the first to put their money where their mouth is - and have stuck with their early idea as posted above.....

image.png.5d07076f50252b6614bc04a05b80114c.png

Large_AC_75_38451.jpg

 

 

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Yes I wish I knew a bit about foils, so I could speculate.  Will half be enough lift for the boat so the other half can give lateral lift, in the UK version?

The other two look like leave the lateral to the arm and most the wing for lift?

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Not being an engineer, but a speculator as most here,I would think the "Mercedes star" gives lift in Y with one arm, and lift to windward with the other. ???

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Few comments from a useless moth sailor:

MAINFOIL

  • if, as I read, foil wings size is basically unrestricted except for max span, so We may see all foil close to max span of 4m, and some pretty big anhedrality. since all team can build 6 wings and modify 20% of each foil, I guess we will see something close to AC 35, where the combination of "core" foil and wing tips  will make for at least 1 set of big foils and 1 set of small foils per boat
  • to my understanding having an anhedral foil will mean that in most condition, at least upwind, one part of the foil wing will be close to parallel and the other will heel to windward, so probably at least part of leeway resistence will be managed by the foil wing and not by the foil arm
  • I'll love to see if the AC teams end-up with a bulb or bubless foils. lots of theories, pros and cons there, AC gurus will definitely lead the development in all the small classes in the next few years.
  • I'd also love to understand how the flap control system will work, and how they will manage the foil/flap hinge. They'll definitely have some sort of internal linkage in the foil wing to adjust the flap, and they will definitely find a way to make a seamless hinge both on top and on the bottom. Some moth foils are already close to a seamless finish out of the mould (bleworks foil is probably the best in this https://www.blueworksfoiling.com/technical) but the ACguys will definitely make it even better. 

RUDDERS

  • Here AC35 definitely showed some trends (wings offset from vertical, no bulb, some sort on anhedality at the join to reduce junction drag). it will be interesting to see if things progress this way or someone finds an even better way

 

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A few shots of Team NYYC's foils as they have come up lately. I still don't buy the lighting on the trailing edge of foil in the first shot; none of the sailors have any light on their aft shoulders, I know maybe the carbon can give funky optics but the wing in the first shot doesn't look like the ones i grabbed from their debut video. The white strip is on the leading edge in the shots from the video, so that can't account for the lighting on the trailing edge of the first shot.

 

ukFoil1.jpg

Meet The MULE.mp4.Still001.jpg

Meet The MULE.mp4.Still002.jpg

Meet The MULE.mp4.Still003.jpg

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Might the amount of anhedral be controlled real-time, or perhaps while it’s flying to windward in anticipation of the next tack? 

Against the rules? Too hard to engineer?

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Wrong thread - you need to go to talk anhedral with the Frackers....... >-u-<

The advantage of this engineering impossibility being?

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11 minutes ago, nav said:

Wrong thread - you need to go to talk anhedral with the Frackers....... >-u-<

The advantage of this engineering impossibility being?

Up vs downwind, speeds in the conditions, maybe even tide?

Don’t think the idea has been suggested here yet; perhaps for good reason :)

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15 hours ago, barfy said:

A few shots of Team NYYC's foils as they have come up lately. I still don't buy the lighting on the trailing edge of foil in the first shot

It's very easy to get false 3d effects in 2d images that appear to reverse curvatures (effectively reverse stereo vision or stereopsis). If the foil has a concave or hollow trailing edge, the light strip along the edge is explained as reflected light coming from ahead. It's your brain trying to make a 3d image from 2d data that makes it a convex chord-wise curve when if fact it's concave.

Try this: look at the image, close your eyes, rotate it 180° and look again. You may well now see a hollow along the trailing edge. Or not.

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Good point. Some of the shots of the camber in the etnz bat wing were stunning.

The light falloff on the hull is almost exact mid ship, for the trailing edge of the foil to be lit wouldn't it be further from the boat, or deeper, than the depth of the leading edge? Perhaps it's a flap that's in full lift position?

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The latest sailingworld article seems to have a completely different foil. Attachments for hinges visible up the trailing edge. I brought up the blacks a bit to make it more visible.

edit: white square in the middle and white probly bog fills over the attachments. Hinge line visible. 

 

 

the-mulefoil.jpg

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So are the foil arms the same? I am on a phone and going batty trying to decide.  I think not but at this point give up.

ukFoil1.jpg.e602affdda73c0bdb3208d5e258c8cc1.jpg

image.png.e59c2f753993a52a03fcdd3e102141de.png

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Sorry if this is an ignorant question - I have only been following the developments sporadically, but am I right that only the brits and americans have a sailing/foiling test platform at this point, whereas the other team, including NZ is still messing with hydraulics and the like on shore? Not to say that the shore part is not important, but having a flying test boat at this point seems fairly essential. 

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16 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

Sorry if this is an ignorant question - I have only been following the developments sporadically, but am I right that only the brits and americans have a sailing/foiling test platform at this point, whereas the other team, including NZ is still messing with hydraulics and the like on shore? Not to say that the shore part is not important, but having a flying test boat at this point seems fairly essential. 

ETNZ is currently relying on computer simulation, as they regard it as more cost effective.

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56 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

ETNZ is currently relying on computer simulation, as they regard it as more cost effective.

Maybe I should also invest $20 in a sailing simulator. Sure more cost effective than owning an actual boat...

image.png.d79d68ef1686b2528f07d8f5065d0eb0.png

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Maybe....Maybe entz is in stealth mode again. They did lose 34 and the clearest reason to date was early release of their progress. They have no sponsor they need to impress.

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

So are the foil arms the same? I am on a phone and going batty trying to decide.  I think not but at this point give up.

ukFoil1.jpg.e602affdda73c0bdb3208d5e258c8cc1.jpg

image.png.e59c2f753993a52a03fcdd3e102141de.png

No hinge rivets, no flap hinge line, no arm attachment points with white bog, no white patch in the center which are all visible on the second wing. I stand by the opinion the first wing was a righting moment ballast test or was shopped on.

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1 hour ago, AnotherSailor said:

Sorry if this is an ignorant question - I have only been following the developments sporadically, but am I right that only the brits and americans have a sailing/foiling test platform at this point, whereas the other team, including NZ is still messing with hydraulics and the like on shore? Not to say that the shore part is not important, but having a flying test boat at this point seems fairly essential. 

The hydraulics aren't even their own, that is teating of one design parts that will be supplied to all teams.

All actual ETNZ testing and building is completely secret at this point.

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52 minutes ago, barfy said:

No hinge rivets, no flap hinge line, no arm attachment points with white bog, no white patch in the center which are all visible on the second wing. I stand by the opinion the first wing was a righting moment ballast test or was shopped on.

That is also what I think from the first time we saw the photo.

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43 minutes ago, Boybland said:

The hydraulics aren't even their own, that is teating of one design parts that will be supplied to all teams.

All actual ETNZ testing and building is completely secret at this point.

Interesting. 

Are there secret enough spots in NZ to stay away from being filmed or photographed? Or are all NZ-landers complicit in the secrecy? 

Maybe we need some of these:

image.png.4c6b067f1e35e276a52f571bda7117a1.png

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There were enough spots within an hour of Auckland for the tow testing in ac34 to have been completely on the down low.

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6 hours ago, Boybland said:

The hydraulics aren't even their own, that is teating of one design parts that will be supplied to all teams.

All actual ETNZ testing and building is completely secret at this point.

It is easy to keep secrets when you aren't doing anything...lol.   I thought ETNZ was going to do it all by simulator, after all that is how they designed the boat.

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All the contractors got locked out of the boat yard two weeks ago, stealth mode enabled. we'll have to wait a couple of years to find out what kind of testing was done.

Again, after 34 where the #1 reason, and the easiest item to remedy, for not bringing the cup to NZ was letting the cat out of the bag; don't expect gd to make the same mistake twice. Even the pundits on here blamed gd for cock waving over that, imagine what the board said in the report.

They towed the test boat around on a quite lake, I can't imagine that isn't happening as we speak.

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There are places, even in the Hauraki Gulf that can be used for testing. I remember a year before the first successful defense, watching TeamNZ two boat testing a Code zero to use in the pre-starts. I was lucky enough to work and live at an Outdoor Recreation camp on Motutapu Island with no-one else there in winter....apart from a few sheep!!!!. Great watching for a Am Cup fan!!

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20 hours ago, Boybland said:

The hydraulics aren't even their own, that is teating of one design parts that will be supplied to all teams.

All actual ETNZ testing and building is completely secret at this point.

This seems to have led to some misunderstanding.

ETNZ's testing of the common 'will be built and supplied to all' foil arm hydraulic system is obviously not secret, they published a video after all.

ETNZ's designs & build for their own AC75 and appendages are presumably being kept close to the chest

Computer only, or computer plus test-bed is just speculation right?

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I was speculating: in 34, with a healthy budget and a fairly open rule etnz did some low level real world testing of a fairly radical design. In 35 they were on the ropes for $$, the class was heavily restricted, and not far off what they had raced the previous cycle..No testing that we know of.

This cycle, fairly open for foil design, radical new boat, good war chest, no tank testing, wouldn't be surprised if they were dragging some bits thru the water somewhere to validate their simulations.

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

This cycle, fairly open for foil design, radical new boat, good war chest, no tank testing, wouldn't be surprised if they were dragging some bits thru the water somewhere to validate their simulations.

That’s what I’ve been saying all along, except it wouldn’t be a lake and they’d need a catamaran ferry to do the towing. American Magic’s Mule has shown the 12 m LOA applies in the conventional sense (i.e. sans bowsprit and rudder gantry), so they could duplicate the full AC75 geometry in 1:1 scale - and whatever foil they’d test wouldn’t count against the Prot limit

Once you’ve shown the concept works and you know the boat can be kept more or less stable, you need to know how small the foils can be vs. take-off speed and stability: a towed test will show that under measurable conditions

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1 hour ago, Xlot said:

That’s what I’ve been saying all along, except it wouldn’t be a lake and they’d need a catamaran ferry to do the towing. American Magic’s Mule has shown the 12 m LOA applies in the conventional sense (i.e. sans bowsprit and rudder gantry), so they could duplicate the full AC75 geometry in 1:1 scale - and whatever foil they’d test wouldn’t count against the Prot limit

Once you’ve shown the concept works and you know the boat can be kept more or less stable, you need to know how small the foils can be vs. take-off speed and stability: a towed test will show that under measurable conditions

Yeah,  but CFD would show you the same thing without having the build lag time.

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TNZ did not win last cup training with a joy stick, they obviously test with towed platforms and probably with real boats.

My guess is that they have been testing it long time ago, even before writing the rule, giving them a big advance, and we know that time is most precious resource to win an AC.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

TNZ did not win last cup training with a joy stick

They pretty much did though right?

ETNZ would have done essentially zero thought about the boat until *after* Bermuda... agree though that simulation or physical - time can be an advantage... or more important speed-of-learning is the primary focus - either get more time or move faster...

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1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

ETNZ would have done essentially zero thought about the boat until *after* Bermuda... agree though that simulation or physical - time can be an advantage... or more important speed-of-learning is the primary focus - either get more time or move faster...

One of ETNZ's principle designers -  Verdier - actually did put a lot of thought into the new concept well before Bermuda. In fact, all the stability studies and simulations were completed even though the boat (a 39 footer) was never built. The client was brought to Verdier by Ray Davies (also on ETNZ), whom Verdier credits for the idea of taking the final step and eliminating the canting keel altogether. ETNZ then had another 8 months to model the concept before the rule was released in March 2018.

So yes, ETNZ have a tremendous design head start over the other teams in terms of time.

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