Itsabimmerthing

Full Main + HW Jib?

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Thinking about how to "solve" what to sail with in 22+ knots.

We are ok with full main and 106% jib up to about 22 knots and hopelessly overpowered after that.

I do not like reefing the main or would atleast like to push the limit as much as possible.

How would Full Main and ISAF max.size HW jib work upwind? in a chop?

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It's going to be slower than a reefed main.  Reefing the main isn't just about less power in the boat.  It also helps significantly change the balance of the boat.  If the main is not reefed and you aren't trimming it at all - it's going to luff the entire time.  You're gonna ruin your main and it's going to be a large drain on speed. If it IS trimmed at all only the leech is going to be pulling, moving the center of effort wayyyyy back in the sail plan and really messing up the slot.

HW 4 isn't really all that much smaller than the 106.  A bit shorter really.  Take a look at it physically:

http://www.uksailmakers.com/heavy-weather-jib/

Reef your main.  Then you can put the bow down, which is especially important in chop.

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1 hour ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

 

I do not like reefing the main or would atleast like to push the limit as much as possible.

 

You don't like the idea of it or physically doing it? You gotta get over this, it's a basic fundamental of sailing. You will always sail faster with the correct, balanced, sail plan vs "pushing the limit" of your main and putting up smaller and smaller jibs.  

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5 minutes ago, Not Nice said:

You don't like the idea of it or physically doing it? You gotta get over this, it's a basic fundamental of sailing. You will always sail faster with the correct, balanced, sail plan vs "pushing the limit" of your main and putting up smaller and smaller jibs.  

Don't like the idea of stretching the main from the reef point, eventually creating a baggy shape. That has been my thought. It seems like the only way might be to start putting in a reef. I have a 50/50 Carbon/Aramid laminate main.

I of course speak about our sail set with my sailmaker but want to get opinions here as well.

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The reef point is there and reinforced and designed to distribute the load - running with an ineffectively trimmed main just makes the boat slow, uncomfortable, dangerous - for what? To hypothetically save your sails? 

Laminate sails get damaged by UV, mold, chafe, flogging - they don't prematurely lose their shape from being used properly. Having more sail area puts even more load on the sail and rig and boat. Think about saving your sail, rig and boat.

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Your sailmaker should know best.

But as long as you're here:

What kind of boat?  What kind of rig?  In-line spreaders or swept?  What's your "Heavy weather jib"?  A #3 or #4?  High modulus or dacron?  Is you main full-batten, top two full-battens?  Pin head or fat head?  Inshore sprint or offshore distance?  

It is situational for the boat and the race. 

For instance, 3 scenarios: 

1.  In-shore sprint with a 36' mast-head rig and top two full battens, we had great success with a #3 and the main traveler dropped to pop the upper battens to weather in up to 28 knots.  Then hard work to keep that set up working.  Distance race, we'd reef and give the trimmers a break.

2.  With a 40' frac rig and inline spreaders, we bladed out the full main with massive mast bend and changed the jib down in size to #4 in 28-32.  That was the absolute upper limit but it was fast.  But the main leach kept the bow up in the lump and the traveler guy was breaking a sweat.  Used it inshore and on overnights. Multi-day? Reef.  

3.  With a swept-spreader 52', we keep changing down to the J-5 and then at 30+ just get rid of the main and go with a J-4 and survive.  No reefing designed into the sail.  Not a multi-day kind of boat.

 

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9/10 swept triple spreader rig. All sails Carbon, Aramid or combination, Main has full top batten, pin head. We do both inshore and 1-3 days offshore distance.

up to about 22 knots or so we manage with full main and #3 (slightly short hoist, 100%) Full Backstay and bladed out.

My main has one proper reef and the only reason not using it is that I know we are really fast as long we can keep it stable with massive speed bubble. Unsure what the boat is like with a reef.

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Reefing lowers your aerodynamic centre of effort which is exactly what you need when the boat is overpowered. If setup properly reefing should be easier, faster and safer than changing headsails.

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   As LS describes, both methods have their place. Do you have a #4? As long as the reef point in the main was properly built in (not a decorative reef to fool the rules) reefing should not harm the sail. Watch to prevent cloth from being trapped under reef line & crumpled/smashed.

If you can make it to the top mark without reefing, then boat will be faster offwind with full main. If you need to reef because crew can't trim/feather the full main to the mark, then reef will need to be shook out downwind, which can be quite difficult in breeze. You need to experiment with both approaches & establish the decision parameters between the two systems.

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What you want is a legit heavy weather racing jib. This jib will be around 85% of your fore-triangle and will not be full hoist. There will be some sort of strop attached to the head of the jib that will allow you to use your jib halyard the same way you would you're 106%. This jib will also sheet to the same lead position as your 106% jib. These jibs will lower the centre of effort of the entire sail plan and shift it back a little. You'll also reduce the back winding on the main.

Do not confuse this jib with a storm jib. If you're going offshore, rules may stipulate that you have an actual storm jib on board.

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Don't have #4, yet. That's why I am asking these things. Storm Jib I have, but max. size HW Jib #4 is in the plans. 

Do you have you experience with HW Racing Jib+full main? Balance wise?

24 minutes ago, RATM said:

What you want is a legit heavy weather racing jib. This jib will be around 85% of your fore-triangle and will not be full hoist. There will be some sort of strop attached to the head of the jib that will allow you to use your jib halyard the same way you would you're 106%. This jib will also sheet to the same lead position as your 106% jib. These jibs will lower the centre of effort of the entire sail plan and shift it back a little. You'll also reduce the back winding on the main.

Do not confuse this jib with a storm jib. If you're going offshore, rules may stipulate that you have an actual storm jib on board.

 

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1 hour ago, longy said:

   As LS describes, both methods have their place. Do you have a #4? As long as the reef point in the main was properly built in (not a decorative reef to fool the rules) reefing should not harm the sail. Watch to prevent cloth from being trapped under reef line & crumpled/smashed.

If you can make it to the top mark without reefing, then boat will be faster offwind with full main. If you need to reef because crew can't trim/feather the full main to the mark, then reef will need to be shook out downwind, which can be quite difficult in breeze. You need to experiment with both approaches & establish the decision parameters between the two systems.

I have proper reef. Just worried about the main shapeholding.

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We have a #4, but only use it when reefed.  Our sail reduction plan is #3 and full main, #3 and reefed main, then #4 and reefed main.  Reefing is faster than changing headsails.

 

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2 hours ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

9/10 swept triple spreader rig. All sails Carbon, Aramid or combination, Main has full top batten, pin head. We do both inshore and 1-3 days offshore distance.

up to about 22 knots or so we manage with full main and #3 (slightly short hoist, 100%) Full Backstay and bladed out.

My main has one proper reef and the only reason not using it is that I know we are really fast as long we can keep it stable with massive speed bubble. Unsure what the boat is like with a reef.

So, on a nice 15 knot day, throw in a reef, take it out, put it back in.  Practice.  Reefing is a great, necessary technique for longer races.

But I'm generally of the opinion that good headsails can be the key to uphill performance in modern boats that sail well at 15° to 20° heel and need to go fast through the water to make the keel work.

If you regularly see breeze in the high 20's, a #4 is a great addition to going fast uphill.  Make it a durable one, that isn't damaged by being flaked and bagged and put on the bottom of the pile for most of its life.  

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Reefable jib. 

Farr40 & Farr30 hardly ever reef. 

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3 hours ago, SCANAS said:

Reefable jib. 

Farr40 & Farr30 hardly ever reef. 

Agreed, but the good ones have pro main trimmers and have you seen the way those F30 & F40 guys hike like dead possums on a power line? Doubtful that our OP would want to do that.

Reef the bloody main, that's why your sail maker bothered to put reef points in it for you in the first place. With a smaller jib and a reef, that moves the C/E in the sail plan forward and over the C/L/R of the keel and makes the boat so much easier to steer too. But you knew that, didnt you?

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We hike 100%, Trimmers are good and we always trim actively. So that is not an issue.

But it seems like we need to start reefing when TWS above 22kts or so.

Will need to do some tests and gather data on boat speed with reefed set-ups..

And buy that #4 HWJ... Just got a quote for 3Di 760m endurance, 22400dpi.

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I sail with some guys that don't want to reef. I'm not sure if its a misunderstanding of what a reef will do or a ' look at my balls' thing. When its required and i can talk them into a reef we are almost always better balanced, as a result point better and life on board is more pleasant, not being on our ear the whole leg.  Test your reef out and if the main really bags or looks like crap, call the sailmaker. Built correctly the reef point should be as sturdy as the clew and the sail should look fine.  Those Volvo guys reef and I think they know stuff.

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Reefing @22 knots... add a few lbs to the keel!

An aramid/Carbon main should be able to go real flat... tighten the battens and crank the outhaul.

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3 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Agreed, but the good ones have pro main trimmers and have you seen the way those F30 & F40 guys hike like dead possums on a power line? Doubtful that our OP would want to do that.

Reef the bloody main, that's why your sail maker bothered to put reef points in it for you in the first place. With a smaller jib and a reef, that moves the C/E in the sail plan forward and over the C/L/R of the keel and makes the boat so much easier to steer too. But you knew that, didnt you?

One reason you don't generally see them reef is the F40s have an upper wind max limit of 25 knots as a class rule. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

I have proper reef. Just worried about the main shapeholding.

The shape won't hold very well if you are constantly flogging the full sail because you have too much area up for the given conditions...As others have said, if it has reef points, it was designed/engineered so the loads from reefing do not damage the sail. Your mainsail with a single reef in 22+ is going to have quite a bit less load on it compared to the full main in those conditions.

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2 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

how do you expect to do 3-day races without reefing occasionally ?

Must be super light where you sail.

It is very light most of the time, it is not often we see winds above 25kts. That's probably why we've  gotten so long without thinking about it too much

2 hours ago, Tropical Madness said:

Reefing @22 knots... add a few lbs to the keel!

An aramid/Carbon main should be able to go real flat... tighten the battens and crank the outhaul.

Boat is not under canvassed..:) We flatten out completely, but it just is not enough in around 22+.

25 minutes ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

The shape won't hold very well if you are constantly flogging the full sail because you have too much area up for the given conditions...As others have said, if it has reef points, it was designed/engineered so the loads from reefing do not damage the sail. Your mainsail with a single reef in 22+ is going to have quite a bit less load on it compared to the full main in those conditions.

We try to treat our sails very carefully to keep them as fast as possible, that's probably why I have been reluctant to reef due to fear of stretching them.

Looks like no other option than to start reefing. Need to find that reef line somewhere in the container, stripped 10mm Powergrip 78.

Thank you all for all the comments!

 

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1 hour ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

It is very light most of the time, it is not often we see winds above 25kts. That's probably why we've  gotten so long without thinking about it too much

Boat is not under canvassed..:) We flatten out completely, but it just is not enough in around 22+.

We try to treat our sails very carefully to keep them as fast as possible, that's probably why I have been reluctant to reef due to fear of stretching them.

Looks like no other option than to start reefing. Need to find that reef line somewhere in the container, stripped 10mm Powergrip 78.

Thank you all for all the comments!

 

Reefing at the appropriate time would be treating the sails more carefully than trying to keep it up through the wind range and having it constantly luffing and refilling. I don't think you'll stretch the material you said the sail was made out of, but you can certainly damage/delaminate it if its being cycled through loading/unloading phases (luffing).

What kind of boat is it? As it was mentioned upthread, it'll be faster to have a balanced, lower center of effort. Just because your boat continues to go upwind with the rail underwater doesn't mean its the fastest way. (I realize there are certain types of boats that do like a fair amount of heel).

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6 minutes ago, Captain Jack Sparrow said:

Reefing at the appropriate time would be treating the sails more carefully than trying to keep it up through the wind range and having it constantly luffing and refilling. I don't think you'll stretch the material you said the sail was made out of, but you can certainly damage/delaminate it if its being cycled through loading/unloading phases (luffing).

What kind of boat is it? As it was mentioned upthread, it'll be faster to have a balanced, lower center of effort. Just because your boat continues to go upwind with the rail underwater doesn't mean its the fastest way. (I realize there are certain types of boats that do like a fair amount of heel).

Boat is 2006 Judel/Vrolik Grand Soleil 45, Heel is a limiting factor, this one doesn't like too much heel, around 25 degrees max upwind.

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@Itsabimmerthing you keep saying over and over that your concern about reefing is because of worry over stretching your main (a carbon aramid laminate with proper reinforced reef points). 

  * Why do you have this worry and or what sailmaker is telling you to not reef due to this?

What folks are trying to tell you is that this is not true (unless there is some very odd circumstance not mentioned) that that both your sail, boat, and crew will all be happier when reefed with some rare exceptions of just wanting to make a ww mark and then desiring the full main for the down wind leg.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

@Itsabimmerthing you keep saying over and over that your concern about reefing is because of worry over stretching your main (a carbon aramid laminate with proper reinforced reef points). 

  * Why do you have this worry and or what sailmaker is telling you to not reef due to this?

What folks are trying to tell you is that this is not true (unless there is some very odd circumstance not mentioned) that that both your sail, boat, and crew will all be happier when reefed with some rare exceptions of just wanting to make a ww mark and then desiring the full main for the down wind leg.

Given the type of boat, the type of sail and the type of racing, I'd say this team needs to learn how to reef. 

My guess is that the mast they have is probably pretty much a telephone pole, that, plus the swept spreaders is not giving them a lot of control over main shape, so maybe a reefed main/#3 combo would be better and save the head sail change for when it's breeze on.   

My 40' frac had a skinny, in-line spreader tin mast and we bent the crap out of it.  Up to 28" of bend.  That let us carry a full main and use just the leach to keep the bow up, with two finger balance, in breeze.  This boat will never be able to do that.  

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So it seems that Full main and HW Jib is a combo that is generally something that does not work, even with the main fully flattened it is still too much and probably would be too much helm, heel, leeway, you name it (Yes, the mast bends nicely) So, we need to start reefing (not learn to).

Sailmaker is on the case and luckily they were onboard one breezier day to work out crossovers. Thanks for the comments and experiences you guys have. appreciate the second opinions.

 

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5 hours ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

So it seems that Full main and HW Jib is a combo that is generally something that does not work, even with the main fully flattened it is still too much and probably would be too much helm, heel, leeway, you name it (Yes, the mast bends nicely) So, we need to start reefing (not learn to).

I would disagree. A HW jib works fine with full main. It is a bit smaller, but clearly flatter and can be sailed without too much backwind on main. 22 seems really low wind to be in trouble with full main for a 45' C/R boat. What is your 106% jib? Is it  M/H? I have had L/M, M/H and HW (as per OSR) jibs and the difference is huge from M/H to HW although it's really not that much smaller (about 100% vs. 104/105%). But it also lacks power and is useless below 18-20 knots.  While racing I would reef around 25 knots depending on the race and waves. With M/H I would be in trouble at 22 or even at 20 knots.

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On 10/1/2018 at 11:28 PM, George Hackett said:

I'm actually thinking of doing this. I plan on getting a 100% jib with a reef to ~85%. Does anyone have real-life experience with sails like this? How much time does it take to put in a reef and how clumsy it is to tack the sail when reefed? 

BTW I just discussed materials for a new main with a sailmaker and he did say that if I need to reef often (which I do), I'd be better using dacron than laminates, because laminates generally hate to be reefed.

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I have used a reefed #2 a lot, much better than a 3 on our old boat. No dramas except it looked retarded but the modern solution is to roll the foot up and zip it onto itself. 

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I have used both a reefable #1 and #3. The #1 just had a second higher clew this made a jib top. The 3 had both a second clew and tack. We went to the high clew first, making a blast teacher and then to the second tack to be a heavy weather jib for the offshore rules. 

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My staysail is reefable with second clew and tack. The foot simply rolls up, and it's never clean and tidy like marketing photos generally show. 

It's more of a storm jib setup than for racing, ie: have to be north of 35+ knots to even think about it. 

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4 hours ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

I have used a reefed #2 a lot, much better than a 3 on our old boat. No dramas except it looked retarded but the modern solution is to roll the foot up and zip it onto itself. 

Thanks, I haven't seen the zipper version before, but when I googled, I found a pic on Stan Honey's blog. What I don't understand is that both halves of the zipper seems to be on the same side so one would end up inside if you roll up.

http://honeynav.com/jib-hanks-reefable-solent-jib/

DSC_1804.jpg

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

The foot simply rolls up

How do you tie the roll? Thanks

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Hi Erdb,

Normal sail ties, there are eyelets in the staysail just above the second clew and tack.

It's the same setup as you see in mainsail reefs. 

if your really overpowered, and for a completely different approach, can the boat take an inner forestay and staysail?  

Sooo easy to drive in heavy airs. I find the closer and lower centre of effort noticeable, it's a much easier groove and better pointing. 

 

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1 hour ago, erdb said:

Thanks, I haven't seen the zipper version before, but when I googled, I found a pic on Stan Honey's blog. What I don't understand is that both halves of the zipper seems to be on the same side so one would end up inside if you roll up.

http://honeynav.com/jib-hanks-reefable-solent-jib/

DSC_1804.jpg

you don't roll (you can't, as Tack #1 is probably still attached, though Stan talks about dropping the whole lot to reef) -- scrunch / flake into the zipper gap.

 

EDIT: I don't know what I'm talking about -- maybe those zips are the 'bag itself on the foredeck'  storage, and you just loose-foot it when reefed.

 

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

Hi Erdb,

Normal sail ties, there are eyelets in the staysail just above the second clew and tack.

It's the same setup as you see in mainsail reefs. 

if your really overpowered, and for a completely different approach, can the boat take an inner forestay and staysail?  

Sooo easy to drive in heavy airs. I find the closer and lower centre of effort noticeable, it's a much easier groove and better pointing. 

 

Just watch that you don't pass your sail ties around the lifelines when tying up the foot, particularly on bigger boats. That scenario goes: reef the jib, stay on the same tack for a while then tack without realising that you have a problem and  suddenly you have a torn jib and no forward lifelines. Back in the IOR days that was not an uncommon scenario. Also the rolled sail foot would fill with water and the extra weight of that would destroy the sail and take out the lifelines. The modern Zipper solution is a big improvement.

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2 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Just watch that you don't pass your sail ties around the lifelines when tying up the foot, particularly on bigger boats. That scenario goes: reef the jib, stay on the same tack for a while then tack without realising that you have a problem and  suddenly you have a torn jib and no forward lifelines. Back in the IOR days that was not an uncommon scenario. Also the rolled sail foot would fill with water and the extra weight of that would destroy the sail and take out the lifelines. The modern Zipper solution is a big improvement.

I did exactly that on Shaggy’s POGO just after he got, it was blowing 30+. Yelled to tack back but too late. Ran back to the cockpit & borrowed Lydia’s knife. Luckily no damage just a bruised ego. 

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48 minutes ago, SCANAS said:

I did exactly that on Shaggy’s POGO just after he got, it was blowing 30+. Yelled to tack back but too late. Ran back to the cockpit & borrowed Lydia’s knife. Luckily no damage just a bruised ego. 

asterix.gif.7aacaee0a8210d2f102600356b9d0c53.gif

I like cutting things more than breaking things.

Edit: Asterix would definitely be a bowman. 

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On 10/4/2018 at 2:24 AM, erdb said:

I'm actually thinking of doing this. I plan on getting a 100% jib with a reef to ~85%. Does anyone have real-life experience with sails like this? How much time does it take to put in a reef and how clumsy it is to tack the sail when reefed? 

BTW I just discussed materials for a new main with a sailmaker and he did say that if I need to reef often (which I do), I'd be better using dacron than laminates, because laminates generally hate to be reefed.

I just ordered a Jib with this setup.  Should see it this week.  Will take pictures of and let you know how it goes.

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1 hour ago, George Hackett said:

I just ordered a Jib with this setup.  Should see it this week.  Will take pictures of and let you know how it goes.

That would be great, thanks!

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I have a jib being built with one reef currently. Drawback will be in light weather when the extra fibers and flat shape will not be optimal...

4111B1DC-36AF-4148-B653-BC8C28218D4C.jpeg

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your sailmaker should verify that the reef points are actually functional reef points and not just some ornament to satisfy  class or rating spec. when I had sails built for both my J30 and J35 I wanted usable reef points in the sails, even though most folks here appeared to have ornaments. get your crew out and practice reefing until it takes about a minute to do.. you'll be glad you did. in the long run, you'll be faster and your main will last a lot longer. being overpowered is slow. As others have already stated in here, having a balanced sailplan will be faster and a lot less wear and tear on your human resources as well as your sails.

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In my experience, #4 and full main is faster and more weatherly than #3 and a reef. Also, easier on the mainsail. Don't forget to use the weather sheet to cross-haul the jib, also. Once the #4 is set, you can reef away, as necessary. Use mast bend to flatten the mainsail, so you can let it twist without flogging.

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On 10/12/2018 at 10:28 PM, Nubben said:

I have a jib being built with one reef currently. Drawback will be in light weather when the extra fibers and flat shape will not be optimal...

4111B1DC-36AF-4148-B653-BC8C28218D4C.jpeg

The other drawback will be when that shackle smacks into your mast when you tack or or your bow-person when you flog it.  Ouch!

Repeat from above:  In my experience, #4 and full main is faster and more weatherly than #3 and a reef. Also, easier on the mainsail. 

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1 minute ago, Left Shift said:

The other drawback will be when that shackle smacks into your mast when you tack or or your bow-person when you flog it.  Ouch!

Repeat from above:  In my experience, #4 and full main is faster and more weatherly than #3 and a reef. Also, easier on the mainsail. 

Probably hard to get that shackle to hit the mast as it is on the luff 

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1 minute ago, Christian said:

Probably hard to get that shackle to hit the mast as it is on the luff 

 

1 minute ago, Christian said:

Probably hard to get that shackle to hit the mast as it is on the luff 

My mistake, I didn't see any hanks or bolt rope.  Work in progress?

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On 10/7/2018 at 10:13 AM, erdb said:

That would be great, thanks!

Sorry. Just to much regatta prep that I never got to try out the new Jib.  Am back in Manila but the boat is still in HK having some work done to it.  After she comes back to the Philippines I will take the photos.

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17 hours ago, Left Shift said:

 

My mistake, I didn't see any hanks or bolt rope.  Work in progress?

Work in progress indeed. It is at the öuff and will additionally get some kind of protective dyneema sock.

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On 10/17/2018 at 7:27 PM, Left Shift said:

 

My mistake, I didn't see any hanks or bolt rope.  Work in progress?

Probably.  I just made the assumption as it would be pretty retarded to put a Tylaska on the leech as a reefing point (as opposed to a loop or cringle)

 

Edit - just saw your question answered by the owner

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On 10/18/2018 at 7:46 AM, George Hackett said:

Sorry. Just to much regatta prep that I never got to try out the new Jib.  Am back in Manila but the boat is still in HK having some work done to it.  After she comes back to the Philippines I will take the photos.

Here is a photo of the new delivery Jib in X-Drive with LiteSkin

ABCE47FE-34C7-4459-8F6B-311DF9F9FFD4.jpeg

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On 10/2/2018 at 8:44 PM, Joakim said:

I would disagree. A HW jib works fine with full main. It is a bit smaller, but clearly flatter and can be sailed without too much backwind on main. 22 seems really low wind to be in trouble with full main for a 45' C/R boat. What is your 106% jib? Is it  M/H? I have had L/M, M/H and HW (as per OSR) jibs and the difference is huge from M/H to HW although it's really not that much smaller (about 100% vs. 104/105%). But it also lacks power and is useless below 18-20 knots.  While racing I would reef around 25 knots depending on the race and waves. With M/H I would be in trouble at 22 or even at 20 knots.

Just for reference, I have 83 vintage 42' RC and @ about 23 the reef in the main, with the 3dl 96% #3,  makes the boat so much more sailable. It's a no brainer, without the reef the main is doing very little by flapping around.   I put the tracks in for the #3 myself,  PO had a reelable #2 and by all accounts it was very effective.   

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On 10/4/2018 at 5:15 AM, shaggybaxter said:

asterix.gif.7aacaee0a8210d2f102600356b9d0c53.gif

I like cutting things more than breaking things.

Edit: Asterix would definitely be a bowman. 

who ordered the samurai douse ? ;-)

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I mean... it's pretty dependent on your boat and what kind of race course you're on. If you're consistently sailing in big breeze like that you could always consider an offshore main that's nice and beefy, short roach/foot, flat, and with bullet proof reef points. That, paired with a #4, would likely help you avoid having to reef. 

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So... will add a new sail for the next season trying to solve our heavy weather "struggle". Will be getting a Max. size HWJ, with a reef. How much reef is TBD.

HWJ will be around 95-100%, slightly short hoist.

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In the IOR days (even fractional rigs), with mounds of headsails, it went something like this:

Full main & #1 (L, M then H)
Full main & #2
Full main & #3, lots of mast bend
Full main & #4, mega mast bend
1 reef & #4
2 reefs & #4
2 reefs & #5
3 reefs & #5
3 reefs & storm jib
trisail & storm jib
trisail & storm staysail
trisail or storm staysail (choose one)
bare poles
Aaaaaahhh....!

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Some of us even had a #6 before the stormie.  And you missed the flattening reef going in before the changes to the Heavy, #2 & possibly #3 and then coming out again after each change down.

While I agree this is still the process with many boats some experimentation can yield different results for individual boats.  i.e.  on an X50 we find reefing sooner & holding the bigger headsail can be faster if there is a big seaway,  we commonly do well with a reef and #2 ( approx 105%) & have had some great results with 2 reefs and #3.  Flat water I would probably still go with staying with the bigger main,  but we find that more drive forward helps get a big heavy and very full bowed boat through the seas.

Of course as they say on the diet ads individual results may vary!

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On 10/2/2018 at 7:14 AM, SCANAS said:

Reefable jib. 

Farr40 & Farr30 hardly ever reef. 

Farr 30s don't reef because of the risk of decompressing the soft carbon rig from the loads when reefed.. The class rules states that you need 1 reef to comply with Cat 3, but everyone just have a "fake" reef. It works kind of ok with no reefs, when to windy you just take the main down and keep going with the jib. We did an 350nm offshorerace (around gotland race) with our old Farr 30 this summer with wind speeds up to 50 knots on the baltic sea... At 35 knots we just took the main down and kept going with the #2 jib. When it came closer to 50 knots we put up the HWJ and asked ourselves why the hell we were on a submarine on open waters far away from land in those conditions..

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On 10/2/2018 at 2:59 AM, Itsabimmerthing said:

Don't like the idea of stretching the main from the reef point, eventually creating a baggy shape. That has been my thought. It seems like the only way might be to start putting in a reef. I have a 50/50 Carbon/Aramid laminate main.

I of course speak about our sail set with my sailmaker but want to get opinions here as well.

Over stretching and flogging the shit out of a mainsail which should have had a reef in will do more damage than putting a reef in....

And then there is the overall balance thing.......

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Some mains aren't designed to reef, better to have one that does. Never saw alot of #2s up or even onboard.

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In the 90's we were using a #3+ when the breeze was in the mid 20's.

It was an unusual sail in that the foot was the right length to be able to use our #3 tracks but it had a very hollow cut leech and a short hoist. I guess the best description would be that it was a hybrid between a #3 and #4.  It was super fast when paired with a full main, which didn't have reef points anyway.  

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As I mentioned up-thread, two ways of doing it.  #3 and full main or #3 and a reef.  Here are the two Ron Holland IOR Maxis 'back in the day' with both configurations.  We on Condor (to windward) decided to stay with full main, but go for max mast bend to flatten it.  The runner loads were impressive.

Image may contain: ocean, sky, outdoor and water

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

As I mentioned up-thread, two ways of doing it.  #3 and full main or #3 and a reef.  Here are the two Ron Holland IOR Maxis 'back in the day' with both configurations.  We on Condor (to windward) decided to stay with full main, but go for max mast bend to flatten it.  The runner loads were impressive.

Image may contain: ocean, sky, outdoor and water

Condor's (Your) jib also looks a bit flatter / draft forward than Kialoa's.

So who won this little bout?   ;)

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Condor's (Your) jib also looks a bit flatter / draft forward than Kialoa's.

So who won this little bout?   ;)

FB- Doug

You're quite right. Our 3 was a bit flatter, being brand new.  K-IV's sails were a bit used-up, as can be seen.

I can't for the life of me remember who won that day.  Loads of fun though, for all 50 of us.

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Decided to get a max size HWJ, with a reef. The sail will be around 100% LP, short hoist.

Interesting to see how that will work. The reef will propably be pretty short.

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On 11/23/2019 at 10:51 AM, P_Wop said:

As I mentioned up-thread, two ways of doing it.  #3 and full main or #3 and a reef.  Here are the two Ron Holland IOR Maxis 'back in the day' with both configurations.  We on Condor (to windward) decided to stay with full main, but go for max mast bend to flatten it.  The runner loads were impressive.

Image may contain: ocean, sky, outdoor and water

Look at those reef points! By the time you're on that third reef, you have reduced your main by 50%. Was that a requirement back then?

It's worth mentioning that when you so those TP52s out there in 25+ with their 85% jibs and a full main, that main is a very flat, heavy weather main

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If you've ever tried to put a trisail up on a maxi, (even in no wind and flat water),  you will understand deep reefs!

4 reefs were not unknown "back in the day".Auto correct

Edited by TUBBY
Bloody spellcheck!

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If the seas are big enough to need some pinch through them and the #3 is built for it I personally prefer a reefed main or second reef even plus the #3 to punch through the seas. If I went From 2 reefs and  a 3 to the 4 I’d probably shake one reef. 

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On 11/23/2019 at 9:51 PM, P_Wop said:

You're quite right. Our 3 was a bit flatter, being brand new.  K-IV's sails were a bit used-up, as can be seen.

I can't for the life of me remember who won that day.  Loads of fun though, for all 50 of us.

You can be sure they all won the after-party!

- Stumbling

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