Tornado-Cat

AC75 vs F50 and Maxis

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It is now official , we have a new F50, improved and more powerful version of the AC50.

We already had discussions and comparisons with the AC75 in another thread but I think the comparison deserves another thread to try to answer these questions:

- fastest in same conditions ? upwind ? downwind ? on a circuit?

- more powerful ?

- hydro drag comparison ?

- aerodrag comparison ?

- stability ?

These are the most evolved concepts with Maxi trimarans, they represent the future of sailing and foiling using different concepts for different conditions.

We live a fantastic time, this thread should try to compare the respective solutions and better understand it.

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Will the F50 be using wings and the AC 75 soft sails?

Surely that will give a power to weight ration advantage to the F50.

Does it matter which is faster ?   Although the very concept of regularly going over 50 knots in a sailboat race is simply mindboggling.

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10 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Will the F50 be using wings and the AC 75 soft sails?

Surely that will give a power to weight ration advantage to the F50.

Does it matter which is faster ?   Although the very concept of regularly going over 50 knots in a sailboat race is simply mindboggling.

- Wing sails vs softsail = advantage softsails

- mono vs cat: advantage to the cat for stability

- length: advantage to the AC75

- weight: advantage to the cat

- T foils vs L foils: advantage to the L with less drag

- Foil flaps : stability advantage to the AC75, hydro drag advantage to the F50

- Righting Moment: i don't know the AC75 total width but I would say advantage to the AC75

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40 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

- Wing sails vs softsail = advantage softsails Why? Surely it is the other way around

- mono vs cat: advantage to the cat for stability

- length: advantage to the AC75 Length isn't relevant when on foils, so long as you have enough separation between main foils and rudders

- weight: advantage to the cat

- T foils vs L foils: advantage to the L with less drag

- Foil flaps : stability advantage to the AC75, hydro drag advantage to the F50

- Righting Moment: i don't know the AC75 total width but I would say advantage to the AC75 It needs to be significantly better for the 75 because it is so much heavier RM=power and they need more power.

It's fun to speculate the technical side, but both the 50's and 75's should be spectacular. 

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Correct A Class Sailor, for the sails I meant, advantage for the wingsail, my mistake.

However a good softsail as they try to make may be efficient and allow reefing, thus make the boat more sea worthy. But true, the wing is more efficient and faster.

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15 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

However a good softsail as they try to make may be efficient and allow reef iting,

Reefing is a real problem with a D shaped mast like they will be using, particularly of that size. I am pretty sure they will create more drag from the section of the mast that is left with no sail than they would be blading out the sail.

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7 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Reefing is a real problem with a D shaped mast like they will be using, particularly of that size. I am pretty sure they will create more drag from the section of the mast that is left with no sail than they would be blading out the sail.

I don't think that's a given. Chopping off the trailing section of a teardrop doesn't increase drag that much (e.g. Kammback), particularly in cross winds (as used on bicycles), so a D section may not have much or any more drag than some other shape, particularly if it's designed for low drag when reefed.

But I think i's moot either way.

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10 hours ago, IPLore said:

Does it matter which is faster ?   

Not to me but each side will make a big deal out of it if their class is faster. 

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13 hours ago, IPLore said:

Will the F50 be using wings and the AC 75 soft sails?

Surely that will give a power to weight ration advantage to the F50.

Does it matter which is faster ?   Although the very concept of regularly going over 50 knots in a sailboat race is simply mindboggling.

2

Fastest boats

Best sailors

Maybe or maybe not for an AC to be an AC, but to be the top dog circuit?

Unless they are prepared for continual investment in the boats, and for all the teams to fund it, OD is an anchor for Sail GP to drag

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50 minutes ago, rgeek said:

OD is an anchor for Sail GP to drag

I tend to agree. Where is the incentive for innovation? If someone comes up with a good idea the whole fleet gets it. You'd have to think, well what's the point, I'll just sail what they give me. It's why I like the AC being a design contest as well. It makes you think deeper about what you're doing, and how you might get the boat to go faster and get an edge on your rivals. Strict one design is a big leveler and takes away a great aspect of sail boat racing - the technology race, which ultimately drives the sport forward. Okay so the tech race can lead to spiraling budgets, but nevertheless ETNZ in AC35 out thought their rivals rather than out spending them.

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Can the "D" section have a teardrop back edge under the sail so when reefed it is not so much drag?

Would it work?

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from https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sailing/2018/10/04/former-americas-cup-holders-launch-new-world-sailing-series/

Coutts claimed the racing would be spectacular. “We reckon they will be between 12-15 per cent faster across the board than the boats which competed in Bermuda,” Coutts said. “At some points of sail they’ll be faster than the AC75 [the monohulls which will be used in the 36th America’s Cup in New Zealand in 2021].”

 

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I would like to know what points he is thinking of, I guess upwind thanks to the wing.

My main concern about the AC75 is not his raw power but its lateral stability to windward, and the brit test boat is giving us some serious crash examples, the lw foil seems to litterally push the boat to windward.

I think the best combination would be AC75 foils on a cat. Anxious to see the AC 75 and F50 sailing.

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28 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 Anxious to see the AC 75 and F50 sailing.

 

There will probably be more crashing than sailing for a while in both cases.

Coutts says they plan on development, but no thought that it will be team driven. More like 'What will give even more spectacle'/'avoid down days' etc....

e.g. the long talked about 'another wing option' is supposed to be there in 2020 IIRC, to finally give the sort of range the AC15s were supposed to have from the beginning, 3-30kn.

 

^ Those foils and rudders remind me of something, hmmm.... if only I could remember

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2 hours ago, nav said:

 

^ Those foils and rudders remind me of something, hmmm.... if only I could remember

That's because those are renders of the ETNZ boat from 2017. The F50s will have foils that can will work into super cavitation range (above 48 kts) and articulated rudder stabilizers - they won't look anything like the ETNZ wings.

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8 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

That's because those are renders of the ETNZ boat from 2017. The F50s will have foils that can will work into super cavitation range (above 48 kts) and articulated rudder stabilizers - they won't look anything like the ETNZ wings.

Makes me wonder if the F50 is more like the boat Oracle envisioned for the AC50, before the Hamilton Island guys con$trained the design possibilities.

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^ The AC 50 rule was written to walk the fine line between development class, and fair, close racing - which was moot once ETNZ found a way to utilize computer generated flight control instructions. This class has no such constraints - for example, they can build whatever daggerboards they like - and will also pool the technology and R&D of the teams in an ongoing process to keep the boat at the absolute top of the performance heap. 

Something like this has been RC's vision for over a decade. It was perhaps not a good fit as a model for the AC, but it will be awesome as a stand alone event.

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14 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ The AC 50 rule was written to walk the fine line between development class, and fair, close racing - which was moot once ETNZ found a way to utilize computer generated flight control instructions. This class has no such constraints - for example, they can build whatever daggerboards they like - and will also pool the technology and R&D of the teams in an ongoing process to keep the boat at the absolute top of the performance heap. 

Something like this has been RC's vision for over a decade. It was perhaps not a good fit as a model for the AC, but it will be awesome as a stand alone event.

Yep. “Totally without handcuffs”

https://www.yachtracing.life/russell-coutts-on-the-sailgp-league/

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Quote

 

When asked the obvious questions as to whether SailGP has been created as a competitor to the hallowed America’s Cup and what he believes the organisers of the next edition in 2021 might think about it, Coutts shrugs and gives this steadfast response:

“I don’t know how they will view it frankly. All I know is that we are not comparing ourselves to any existing sailing property. We absolutely want to be viewed as new. We don’t want to be viewed as a traditional sailing property, we are not comparing ourselves to anyone else in that market.

“If there are any comparisons it’s to some of the other successful leagues in other sports – that’s what we are more comparable to I believe. Sure, we have to build to that, but the vision is not to emulate anything else in sailing, it’s to go with a totally new concept and build from there.”

 

Its a great interview. RC certainly knows how to market.

I believe Russell on this. He has been talking about a professional sailing circuit using high speed bleeding edge technology for close to 20 years. He tried to encourage the AC to encompass some elements of the pro racing vision but the history and the deed of gift carried too much baggage and uncertainty. So they start something different. His model is closer to Formula 1 in some respects than the AC.  

However he doesnt start with a 100% clean sheet of paper. For one thing, they are using the platform of former AC boats rather than an all new design. Secondly the Extreme series , the M32 world match racing circuit and the GP 32 circuit already exist. There is not room for all of them.

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3 hours ago, nav said:

 

There will probably be more crashing than sailing for a while in both cases.

^ Those foils and rudders remind me of something, hmmm.... if only I could remember

The F50 will benefit from the experience, as for the foils, my mistake, its not a F50 but an AC50 rendition.

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

^ The AC 50 rule was written to walk the fine line between development class, and fair, close racing - which was moot once ETNZ found a way to utilize computer generated flight control instructions. This class has no such constraints - for example, they can build whatever daggerboards they like - and will also pool the technology and R&D of the teams in an ongoing process to keep the boat at the absolute top of the performance heap. 

Something like this has been RC's vision for over a decade. It was perhaps not a good fit as a model for the AC, but it will be awesome as a stand alone event.

Why will the teams be doing r&d whilst racing a od class?

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

^ The AC 50 rule was written to walk the fine line between development class, and fair, close racing

And it was fair and close racing :-) It's just that the defender sucked...

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3 minutes ago, barfy said:

Why will the teams be doing r&d whilst racing a od class?

Because they want to remain at the absolute pinnacle of the sport. From the link below:

F50 Blueprint
These boats will start life – and remain completely – one-design. But crucially, unlike nearly every previous one-design class, the F50 is an active development class. The shared design team will continuously research and implement innovations to ensure that the F50 class remains at the cutting edge. Where new components are introduced the will be applied equally across the fleet. The boats will be identical in every respect apart from the crew who sail them and the colors on the livery.

https://www.catsailingnews.com/

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6 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

 

And it was fair and close racing :-) It's just that the defender sucked...

It wasn't close, and the reason it wasn't was a loophole in a rule that was intended to ban computer controlled flight. That same defender executed the greatest comeback in sailing history in 2013. YOU might think they 'suck', but I can assure you the people that actually compete against them don't believe that for a second.

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41 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

Because they want to remain at the absolute pinnacle of the sport

Realistically, how often do you think they're going to change the foils on the entire fleet? It takes around 3 months to make a set of foils, not to mention the considerable expense. They'll be doing very well to change them annually.

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53 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

It wasn't close, and the reason it wasn't was a loophole in a rule that was intended to ban computer controlled flight. That same defender executed the greatest comeback in sailing history in 2013. YOU might think they 'suck', but I can assure you the people that actually compete against them don't believe that for a second.

Oh the irony of all of those words... I simply don't know where to start... so I won't... enjoy!

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23 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Realistically, how often do you think they're going to change the foils on the entire fleet? It takes around 3 months to make a set of foils, not to mention the considerable expense. They'll be doing very well to change them annually.

There’s a good chance that LE is happy to spend as much for sailing endeavors in supporting SailGP as he spent on his recent annual AC budgets. Which has been freaking big. There’s already indication of a variety of modular wings to come (18m, 24m, 28m) down the line, a sign of a big already-made commitment to continual upgrades. Foils will surely be a part of continuous upgrades too. 

Since they already built 3 brand new boats, you’d think even the boat dimensions might change. The LE money behind this is basically bottomless, anything can happen.

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21 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Realistically, how often do you think they're going to change the foils on the entire fleet? It takes around 3 months to make a set of foils, not to mention the considerable expense. They'll be doing very well to change them annually.

I doubt you'd want to change the foils in their entirety more than once a year anyway. But there are plenty of other far less costly (in both money and time) ways to evolve the boats, starting with control systems and software (think ETNZ's wing for example), plus further exploration of rudder foils which (IMO) will be a key component of successfully crossing into super cavitating territory. The shared data from all the boats, and central design team creates a unique incubator for innovation.

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

The LE money behind this is basically bottomless, anything can happen.

Hmm, doesn't really gel with most reports saying their last AC budget was reduced.

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7 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

The shared data from all the boats, and central design team creates a unique incubator for innovation.

I guess we'll see how much they tweak the boats, and how much it moves them forward.

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My bet is that the F50 obliged GD to chose the extreme AC75 concept among the 3 to chose, he had no choice to have a competitive event.

Now the "evolutive one design" may oblige GD to allow AC75 rule evolution, if LR accepts it, which is far from sure.

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1 hour ago, surfsailor said:

It wasn't close, and the reason it wasn't was a loophole in a rule that was intended to ban computer controlled flight. That same defender executed the greatest comeback in sailing history in 2013. YOU might think they 'suck', but I can assure you the people that actually compete against them don't believe that for a second.

Blah blah blah. They did suck. The reason it wasn't close was because the defender was outdesigned, outclassed and outraced. Thats all there is to it. 

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39 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

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Hmm, doesn't really gel with most reports saying their last AC budget was reduced.

If LE is going to blow his historic annual AC budgets on this GP series instead, there will be plenty of cash to burn on upgrades. ‘Reduced’ or not, it had to be at least $80M for AC35 and he may be more juiced about this new endeavor anyway.

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

If LEvis going to spend his historic annual AC budgets on this GP series instead, there will be plenty of cash to burn on upgrades. ‘Reduced’ or not, it had to be at least $80M for AC35 and he may be more juiced about this new endeavor anyway.

He might not have to spend too much, GP has Landrover and LV as sponsors, furthermore they must have business plan to try to make profits, which remains to be seen though, we speak of sailing...

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8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

My bet is that the F50 obliged GD to chose the extreme AC75 concept among the 3 to chose, he had no choice to have a competitive event.

I doubt the F50's had any bearing on the AC75 - why would they? They're not competing events at all imo. The AC is alone in its history and prestige. 

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7 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I doubt the F50's had any bearing on the AC75 - why would they? They're not competing events at all imo. The AC is alone in its history and prestige. 

Not competing event but one will look better than the other. And let's not forget, the CoR wants to win, the defender wants to win and a successful event

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12 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I doubt the F50's had any bearing on the AC75 - why would they? They're not competing events at all imo. The AC is alone in its history and prestige. 

I think TC made a reasonable point. LE had already made his intention clear about a sustainable, quick-cycle, series in evolutions of the ultra-fast AC50’s.  When TNZ diverged, they may well have had an eye towards the likelihood that LE would pursue that fast-foiler progression regardless and so GD is trying to not get left in the wash of what was the inevitable AC50 evolution wake to come. 

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10 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

but one will look better than the other.

I don't really look at it that way, and I don't see why both events can't co-exist, to the extent that I'd like to see a F50 event in NZ, and a NZ team.  It's not a zero sum game.

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17 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

GD is trying to not get left in the wash of what was the inevitable AC50 evolution wake to come. 

The AC75 would be what it is regardless of LE's plans - imo. 

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

Its a great interview. RC certainly knows how to market.

I believe Russell on this. He has been talking about a professional sailing circuit using high speed bleeding edge technology for close to 20 years. He tried to encourage the AC to encompass some elements of the pro racing vision but the history and the deed of gift carried too much baggage and uncertainty. So they start something different. His model is closer to Formula 1 in some respects than the AC.  

However he doesnt start with a 100% clean sheet of paper. For one thing, they are using the platform of former AC boats rather than an all new design. Secondly the Extreme series , the M32 world match racing circuit and the GP 32 circuit already exist. There is not room for all of them.

I don't think that can go unchallenged.  The AC may be closer to F1 but not F50 series because in both events the contestants are required to build their vehicles to a set of rules. 

Think Indycar and you would be closer because both events provide the same one design vehicles to the contestants with Indycar allowing a choice of Honda or Chevy engines.  Indycar also reviews the car design each year as is intended for the F50 series.

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10 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I don't really look at it that way, and I don't see why both events can't co-exist, to the extent that I'd like to see a F50 event in NZ, and a NZ team.  It's not a zero sum game.

They can co-exist, I even think that they are mutually benefitable as the real issue is to bring the general public to watch sailing, so what is good for one will benefit to the other.

AC75 will be spectacular and fast, perfect for a great show on TV, however GD couldn't afford to have boats crashing to winward (which remains to be seen though) if the others are fast and stable. If it's the case they will modify the rule, imo.

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53 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

GD is trying to not get left in the wash of what was the inevitable AC50 evolution wake to come. 

When you write shite like this you really do look like a petulant child...

So far you've said:

  • GD had to switch because LR "own" him and they dictated it
  • GD switched because they wanted to engineer an unfair advantage
  • and now it's because GD is spooked by a future AC50 regatta?

I'd ask which one you're going to stick with now given they are contradictory, but that's an exercise in futility given:

  • How your opinions change with the wind to suit whatever shot you want to take
  • They are devoid of logic and intelligent thought processes anyway...

Time will tell how far this AC50 wake washes mate, I look forward to us reviewing it in the years to come... and seeing how the promises of a billionaire (with a track record of moving onto other things whenever the desire takes him) that you so gullibly lap up, will actually turn out... 

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8 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I think the best combination would be AC75 foils on a cat.

I find that in Catsailingnews: "Latest trend have been T foils and flaps, wonder if they will stick to J/V designs."

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3 hours ago, surfsailor said:

… will be a key component of successfully crossing into super cavitating territory.

I think you're misusing "super" here. The hydrofoils have to generate lift, super cavitation surrounds the submerged object in a vapour bubble to reduce drag, which I imagine would play havoc with the foil's ability to provide lift as it's then travelling in a different medium.

I think the key is to avoid cavitation, i.e. make the foils go beyond the current speed at which cavitation starts to be an issue (around 50kn).

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

I think you're misusing "super" here. The hydrofoils have to generate lift, super cavitation surrounds the submerged object in a vapour bubble to reduce drag, which I imagine would play havoc with the foil's ability to provide lift as it's then travelling in a different medium.

I think the key is to avoid cavitation, i.e. make the foils go beyond the current speed at which cavitation starts to be an issue (around 50kn).

Yeah, I wasn't being clear. Typically, we think of just under 50 kts as the cavitation threshold for the main lifting foils, so - with the new boats predicted to have top speeds of 52-54 kts - I just meant the territory. The article in Catamaran Racing News specifically referenced later cavitation onset with the new, thinner foils.

Having said that, super cavitating foils absolutely do produce lift - Sail Rocket used them for example. Here's an interesting abstract about some other SC foils:

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/656/1/012147

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13 hours ago, rh2600 said:

When you write shite like this you really do look like a petulant child...

So far you've said:

  • GD had to switch because LR "own" him and they dictated it
  • GD switched because they wanted to engineer an unfair advantage
  • and now it's because GD is spooked by a future AC50 regatta?

I'd ask which one you're going to stick with now given they are contradictory, but that's an exercise in futility given:

  • How your opinions change with the wind to suit whatever shot you want to take
  • They are devoid of logic and intelligent thought processes anyway...

Time will tell how far this AC50 wake washes mate, I look forward to us reviewing it in the years to come... and seeing how the promises of a billionaire (with a track record of moving onto other things whenever the desire takes him) that you so gullibly lap up, will actually turn out... 

lets be real

you, i and all of us know it was the first one of those choices

lets stop acting like GD had any choice in moving to a monohull shall we

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15 hours ago, rh2600 said:

When you write shite like this you really do look like a petulant child...

So far you've said:

  • GD had to switch because LR "own" him and they dictated it
  • GD switched because they wanted to engineer an unfair advantage
  • and now it's because GD is spooked by a future AC50 regatta?

I'd ask which one you're going to stick with now given they are contradictory, but that's an exercise in futility given:

  • How your opinions change with the wind to suit whatever shot you want to take
  • They are devoid of logic and intelligent thought processes anyway...

Time will tell how far this AC50 wake washes mate, I look forward to us reviewing it in the years to come... and seeing how the promises of a billionaire (with a track record of moving onto other things whenever the desire takes him) that you so gullibly lap up, will actually turn out... 

You (probably intentionally) removed the context of my post. And, many factors may have been at play in going for the foiling multihull.

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18 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

 

Now the "evolutive one design" may oblige GD to allow AC75 rule evolution, if LR accepts it, which is far from sure.

Evolve to two hulls??

B) Jest kidding.

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17 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

They can co-exist, I even think that they are mutually benefitable as the real issue is to bring the general public to watch sailing, so what is good for one will benefit to the other.

AC75 will be spectacular and fast, perfect for a great show on TV, however GD couldn't afford to have boats crashing to winward (which remains to be seen though) if the others are fast and stable. If it's the case they will modify the rule, imo.

I don't agree. Except for the super fans, the public usually only has time, interest and opportunity to watch the pinnacle event/series of a sport. The "smaller" events/series compete for the meager rest in viewership and sponsoring. It's the same in motorsports.

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3 hours ago, inebriated said:

lets be real

you, i and all of us know it was the first one of those choices

lets stop acting like GD had any choice in moving to a monohull shall we

I think we know how the conversation went

LR :  We will help you if you promise to return to traditional yachts if you win the AC

GD : What do you mean by traditional?

LR: A monohull with soft sails and lots of crew.

GD : Okay. Done Deal.

6 Months later

GD: Here you are, as promised, a monohull.

LR : What the fuck!

 

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2 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I don't agree. Except for the super fans, the public usually only has time, interest and opportunity to watch the pinnacle event/series of a sport. The "smaller" events/series compete for the meager rest in viewership and sponsoring. It's the same in motorsports.

Don't consider it like a cake that you can share but a cake that can grow before being shared.

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F50 circuit could promote itself by supplying boats for the formally known as VOR in-port series.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Don't consider it like a cake that you can share but a cake that can grow before being shared.

Been there, done that.

If you were right, Formula Ford would have as many viewers and sponsorship as F1. The races are better by all means.

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3 minutes ago, Varan said:

F50 circuit could promote itself by supplying boats for the formally known as VOR in-port series.

Ohhhhh, don't start again with that loony idea to have different boats for the in-ports than for offshore.

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23 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

I don't agree. Except for the super fans, the public usually only has time, interest and opportunity to watch the pinnacle event/series of a sport. The "smaller" events/series compete for the meager rest in viewership and sponsoring. It's the same in motorsports.

Remember the AC is not aiming to be the pinnacle spectator event. Its a "friendly competition between nations". It is historic, sacred and rich in tradition. Those evil people from Oracle nearly ruined it by turning it into a spectator sport but the Italians and the Kiwis rescued it and returned it to the privileged preserve of the super rich.  Thank goodness!

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^
I wasn't directly talking about the AC; this is the thread about Larry's Circus. But if you think, the AC is the pinnacle of sailing, o.k., doesn't matter for this argument.

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1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

Been there, done that.

If you were right, Formula Ford would have as many viewers and sponsorship as F1. The races are better by all means.

I don't understand what you mean, my point is that if both events can contribute to grow a bigger public the cake will be bigger to share, I don't say the parts will be equivalent, and we don't know what event will be F1 or NASCAR.

 

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

I don't agree. Except for the super fans, the public usually only has time, interest and opportunity to watch the pinnacle event/series of a sport. The "smaller" events/series compete for the meager rest in viewership and sponsoring. It's the same in motorsports.

 

1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

^
I wasn't directly talking about the AC; this is the thread about Larry's Circus. But if you think, the AC is the pinnacle of sailing, o.k., doesn't matter for this argument.

There is a problem that sailing has a number of pinnacles because their is a wide range of activities.It's not like motorsport. In sailing, which is the pinnacle? Olympics, VOR, AC? None of them are regular events. In the category of annual series, there isn't one that stands out as the pinnacle.What would it be? TP52's, Extreme Series, Olympic classes World Cup? Surely there is room for a pinnacle annual series and it wouldn't clash with "the big 3".

I have no idea whether they will manage to elevate this new series much above the super fans, but then again, neither have the big three. Of all the series I have seen in 50 years of sailing, this seems to me to be the most likely.

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22 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Could you please paste some of that here? That site is iPhone incompatible.

World champion and Olympian Dylan Fletcher leads this national team of top British sailors into battle.

The team will be managed by world class sailor Chris Draper, Bronze Olympic medalist with two America’s Cup cycles under his belt, most recently as Sailing Team Manager and Wing Trimmer with Softbank Team Japan for the 35th America’s Cup. Great Britain SailGP skipper and helmsman will be Dylan Fletcher, Rio 2016 Olympian, current 49er World Champion, and ranked no 1 in the 49er world rankings.

  • Dylan Fletcher

    Dylan Fletcher

    Skipper & Helmsman

    Dylan Fletcher had a strong junior career, graduating from the 29er to the 49er, where his first Olympic campaign finished with a sixth-place result at Rio 2016. Back at it, he won a world title in 2017 to open his campaign for Tokyo 2020. If Fletcher needs inspiration for elite performance, he doesn’t need to look far from home – both his parents are graduates of the Royal Ballet School and have performed with the Royal Ballet Company.

  • Chris Draper

    Chris Draper

    CEO & Wing Trimmer

    Chris Draper holds multiple world and European championship titles, as well as the bronze medal from the 2004 Olympic Games in the 49er class. He has led his team to wins on the Extreme Sailing Series and was one of the first dinghy sailors recruited to crossover to the America’s Cup after the switch to multihulls. First as a helmsman with Team Korea and then Italy’s Prada campaign in 2013, he went on to be the tactician/wing trimmer with SoftBank Team Japan for the 2017 America’s Cup.

  • Stuart Bithell

    Stuart Bithell

    Pilot & Tactician

    Stuart Bithell won the silver medal in the 470 class at the 2012 Olympic Games in London before switching to the 49er class, in which he now sails with Dylan Fletcher. The pair won the 2017 world title as they look for selection to the Tokyo 2020 Games.

  • Richard Mason

    Richard Mason

    Grinder

    Richard Mason grew up sailing in the 49er, 470 and F18 catamaran and now has a broad range of experience, including short-handed offshore racing in the gruelling Solitaire du Figaro race. He’s also won the Extreme Sailing Series and on the GC32 multihull circuit.

  • Matt Gotrel

    Matt Gotrel

    Grinder

    Matt Gotrel is in the unusual position of having competed at the highest level in two sports. Initially a member of the British Sailing Team campaigning for the Olympics, he left sailing and took up rowing, in which he is a two-time world champion and Olympic gold medalist in the men’s eight.

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

^
I wasn't directly talking about the AC; this is the thread about Larry's Circus. But if you think, the AC is the pinnacle of sailing, o.k., doesn't matter for this argument.

Actually, this is the second thread about the circus : )

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23 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Because they want to remain at the absolute pinnacle of the sport. From the link below:

F50 Blueprint
These boats will start life – and remain completely – one-design. But crucially, unlike nearly every previous one-design class, the F50 is an active development class. The shared design team will continuously research and implement innovations to ensure that the F50 class remains at the cutting edge. Where new components are introduced the will be applied equally across the fleet. The boats will be identical in every respect apart from the crew who sail them and the colors on the livery.

https://www.catsailingnews.com/

Wow, you've really drank the cool aid.

I was commenting on team's design teams, you conflated that with a shared design team.

Will they keep one boat for testing? Will they take a boat out of class to test?

Or will they be busy chasing gremlins, rolling them out to all the boats, and once a year having a design forum, by committee.

I can't see leaps and bounds of evolution somehow.

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Thanks TC. Draper will be key to that team.

Looking forward to seeing the remaining crews announced, especially Australia.

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22 minutes ago, barfy said:

Actually, this is the second thread about the circus : )

This one should focus on boat comparison only, but I agree it's difficult not to jump to the circus itself. I sometimes do the mistake myself.

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9 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

This one should focus on boat comparison only

A thread for Team comparison could be fun too, especially once they hit that (reaching mark at 50+ ?? !!) start line in Sydney.

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

Wow, you've really drank the cool aid.

I was commenting on team's design teams, you conflated that with a shared design team.

Will they keep one boat for testing? Will they take a boat out of class to test?

Or will they be busy chasing gremlins, rolling them out to all the boats, and once a year having a design forum, by committee.

I can't see leaps and bounds of evolution somehow.

That's a quote - not MY 'koolaid'. But for sure there are both pros and cons to having a single centralized design team rather than a group of independent teams that are competing. On the 'pro' side:

1) Shared data - the design team will have 100% of the data from ALL the boats. 

2) Input from ALL teams

3) There is no rule per se - so instead of looking for loopholes, their hands are free and they can focus on straight improvement which only needs to be justified on a bang for the buck basis.

Having said that, there is no question that some amazing innovation has (and will continue) to come out of the design pressure cooker that is the AC.

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18 hours ago, surfsailor said:

Yeah, I wasn't being clear. Typically, we think of just under 50 kts as the cavitation threshold for the main lifting foils, so - with the new boats predicted to have top speeds of 52-54 kts - I just meant the territory. The article in Catamaran Racing News specifically referenced later cavitation onset with the new, thinner foils.

Having said that, super cavitating foils absolutely do produce lift - Sail Rocket used them for example. Here's an interesting abstract about some other SC foils:

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/656/1/012147

I know super cavitating foils produce lift, but a foil optimised for sub–cavitation will not do well in super cavitating conditions.

Thanks for the article, it's very interesting. It's always tough at the boundaries, there's a dramatic difference in the shape of sub and super cavitating foils. And given that big foilers are now at the boundary of sub/super cavitation, a foil optimised for one or the other will have a serious disadvantage in some conditions. It will be interesting to see just how far they can push the boundaries, and how much overlap there is between the two.

I guess the trick is to make them good enough at sub–cavitation speeds to get them to super cavitating. But the higher speeds on offer must start to affect VMG due to the ever narrowing apparent wind angle. Sail Rocket is the fastest boat on Earth, but in one direction only… ;-)

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By stimulating clever people with new ideas picking up the crumbs shared be Team members.  No doubt all foiling sailing will be improved.  Maybe be not right up to the fierce cutting edge but, like it has so far showing you can make it happen.

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11 hours ago, surfsailor said:

That's a quote - not MY 'koolaid'. But for sure there are both pros and cons to having a single centralized design team rather than a group of independent teams that are competing. On the 'pro' side:

1) Shared data - the design team will have 100% of the data from ALL the boats. 

2) Input from ALL teams

3) There is no rule per se - so instead of looking for loopholes, their hands are free and they can focus on straight improvement which only needs to be justified on a bang for the buck basis.

Having said that, there is no question that some amazing innovation has (and will continue) to come out of the design pressure cooker that is the AC.

1 yup

2 yup

3 nope. I think from all the hype I hear about the boats being exactly the same, sailors making the difference...it is exactly a od fleet. And I would not think that they would roll out incremental dev, or even be able to test dev with 5boats wanting od so as to not have a disadvantage.

So dev will be tested, maybe agreed by the team (s) of 5 once a year.

Please suggest another scenario.

 

Oh, and I have never been a naysayer, I think this will be cool. But, evolution of this class, not so much. Hi tech gremlins teams will gripe about, yes I think. Roll out? Well it finally came, but a bit road warrior..and 404's are underwhelming in this day and age for a $$$$ product launch.

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10 hours ago, barfy said:

And I would not think that they would roll out incremental dev, or even be able to test dev with 5boats wanting od so as to not have a disadvantage.

So dev will be tested, maybe agreed by the team (s) of 5 once a year.

Please suggest another scenario.

That's not what they have said in press releases. They expect to upgrade the boats during the course of each season. There are so many areas for development. For instance, I would expect to see improvements in control systems, particularly foil control, being ongoing. That will impact speed. Same with the wing. As for foils, what is to prevent them mking a single set and for one boat to use them in practice before an event, lining up against the others. It would even be possible during the course of a day for teams to have a go with the new gear.I am sure that they won't be arriving at a venue and simply starting racing straight away. I suspect there will be a few training days so enough time to try developments.

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Yes control systems and associated SW/firmware would be an easy target for dev. As for testing tho, which team would want to throw valuable limited training time down the drain to test some New Gear. Then go back to the regular gear for the races?

Again,I think this will be cool knuckle biting racing. But I can only see challenges evolving the boats of a od class at a rapid rate, reckon this is a bit of oversell.

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" throw valuable limited training time down the drain to test some New Gear "

If select days are set aside as "testing only days", volunteers that do the testing would be the only ones on the water. 

Consider testing to confirm some improvement does what it is supposed to.  You would see traditional two boat testing, running something "new" alongside a "stock boat". Even better for data quality, they could have more than two boats on the water with the crews not even told which ones are stock vs. modified.  All crews on the water are getting valuable time on the water experience. 

Also, I am thinking that the crew are "paid full time employees" for the F50 teams.  Yes all the teams want to win, but if they want the paycheck to keep coming they will also want the series to keep going.  The series needs to be able to say they are "the fastest boats on the water" or at least "the fastest boats around an inshore course". 

As far as comparing boats, consider the following.

We saw how smooth the AC50s could fly around the course in Bermuda with very little lost in each tack/jibe.  With no design restrictions in their way, the F50s are getting an increase in effective beam and battery powered hydraulic control of the dagger boards and rudders. 

For the time interval when they will both be on the water,  the F50s will be 3rd generation course racing flying cats (AC72, AC50, F50).

The AC75 has "bigger is better" going for it.  However there is a huge penalty with the extra weight.  The weight will translate into high foil loading.  In lighter winds, I doubt that the extra size will offset the weight.  With more wind, both platforms will be dealing with cavitation.  With respect to cavitation, you want thinner foils and reduced foil loading. 

We are all just guessing at this point when it comes to the AC75.  On some points of sail in certain wind speed ranges, the extra size may give them an advantage.  The probability of seeing well refined maximum performance in this cup cycle is pretty low.  The development challenge for this cycle is more similar to what we saw with the AC72s than it is to the AC50 cycle. 

As long as you stay away from conditions that are too rough for an F50, it should be able to get around a given course in  less time. I am betting the F50 will be "the fastest boats on the water" in the context of course racing at least for a while.  If managed and financed acceptably, they will improve with time. 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, P Flados said:

" throw valuable limited training time down the drain to test some New Gear "

If select days are set aside as "testing only days", volunteers that do the testing would be the only ones on the water. 

Consider testing to confirm some improvement does what it is supposed to.  You would see traditional two boat testing, running something "new" alongside a "stock boat". Even better for data quality, they could have more than two boats on the water with the crews not even told which ones are stock vs. modified.  All crews on the water are getting valuable time on the water experience. 

Also, I am thinking that the crew are "paid full time employees" for the F50 teams.  Yes all the teams want to win, but if they want the paycheck to keep coming they will also want the series to keep going.  The series needs to be able to say they are "the fastest boats on the water" or at least "the fastest boats around an inshore course". 

As far as comparing boats, consider the following.

We saw how smooth the AC50s could fly around the course in Bermuda with very little lost in each tack/jibe.  With no design restrictions in their way, the F50s are getting an increase in effective beam and battery powered hydraulic control of the dagger boards and rudders. 

For the time interval when they will both be on the water,  the F50s will be 3rd generation course racing flying cats (AC72, AC50, F50).

The AC75 has "bigger is better" going for it.  However there is a huge penalty with the extra weight.  The weight will translate into high foil loading.  In lighter winds, I doubt that the extra size will offset the weight.  With more wind, both platforms will be dealing with cavitation.  With respect to cavitation, you want thinner foils and reduced foil loading. 

We are all just guessing at this point when it comes to the AC75.  On some points of sail in certain wind speed ranges, the extra size may give them an advantage.  The probability of seeing well refined maximum performance in this cup cycle is pretty low.  The development challenge for this cycle is more similar to what we saw with the AC72s than it is to the AC50 cycle. 

As long as you stay away from conditions that are too rough for an F50, it should be able to get around a given course in  less time. I am betting the F50 will be "the fastest boats on the water" in the context of course racing at least for a while.  If managed and financed acceptably, they will improve with time. 

 

 

 

I'm not so certain.

They are two quite fundamentally different concepts and the AC75 may simply be a faster concept and if so by the end of this cycle the better teams will have them within a few percentage points of potential, like they did with the very much more unknown AC72.

Doesn't the ETNZ AC72 still have the fastest speed recorded in an AC? or did that eventually get topped?  That was working on an entirely concept and using a loophole to even allow foiling and the mistaken initial premise that foiling to windward was impossible, not to mention a requirement to over engineer for wind and wave conditions that were then unnecessary due to rule changes half way through the event.

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3 hours ago, Boybland said:

and if so by the end of this cycle the better teams will have them within a few percentage points of potential, like they did with the very much more unknown AC72.

You are dreaming if you think they got within a few percentage points of the max potential of the AC72's. They were way off that. There was still significant potential for foils, foil control systems and wing control systems and if they had kept the 72's, we would have seen boats that were far quicker around the course than  the ones that raced in SF.

Even if we just take the boats at the level of development they were at,  with another 6 months of training and development, they would have been noticeably quicker. 

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I agree that there fundamental differences.

The AC75 is bigger and will use the lifted foil/keel to generate RM. 

It will be a very powerful platform.

It will be very fast.  At some wind speeds on some points of sail it may be faster than the F50. 

The AC50 was very fast up, down and through all the maneuvers.  The F50 will be faster than the AC50.   

Will the extra size make the AC75 faster.  I just do not see it for a first time effort.  If a second generation AC 75' foiling mono come to pass, it would have a better chance.

 

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52 minutes ago, P Flados said:

It will be a very powerful platform.

 

Very powerful, probably faster than the AC50 for sheer speed, but will they be able to survive their windward crashes ?

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49 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Very powerful, probably faster than the AC50 for sheer speed, but will they be able to survive their windward crashes ?

Will the f50 crews survive fleet racing?

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Much is being made of how powerful the 75's will be, but let's not forget that they need to be very powerful compared with the 50's because they are so much heavier. There is a significant problem with all that power, and that is in the need to depower. On a foiler, the point at which you are fully powered up is just as you begin foiling because once you are foiling, the increase in apparent wind quickly overpowers. This is where the lighter, less powerful boat and rig has an advantage (read Frank Bethwaite for more details).

For me, this issue of the significant increase in apparent wind strength once foiling and therefore the need to make significant adjustments to the power in the rig quickly is why I believe the soft wing boats are at a significant disadvantage. You go from max power to low drag very quickly. Being able to significantly lower the centre of effort of the rig easily is also important on a foiler and is a big speed factor ETNZ had the biggest advantage on the 50's because Ashby had a game boy controller which allowed for speedy adjustment of the wing in a way that will be impossible with the soft sail for no other reason than there being less control points. 

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9 minutes ago, barfy said:

Will the f50 crews survive fleet racing?

AC45 F did it without problem. Most problems occured during crashes or close calls during the AC.

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11 hours ago, P Flados said:

" throw valuable limited training time down the drain to test some New Gear "

If select days are set aside as "testing only days", volunteers that do the testing would be the only ones on the water. 

Consider testing to confirm some improvement does what it is supposed to.  You would see traditional two boat testing, running something "new" alongside a "stock boat". Even better for data quality, they could have more than two boats on the water with the crews not even told which ones are stock vs. modified.  All crews on the water are getting valuable time on the water experience. 

Also, I am thinking that the crew are "paid full time employees" for the F50 teams.  Yes all the teams want to win, but if they want the paycheck to keep coming they will also want the series to keep going.  The series needs to be able to say they are "the fastest boats on the water" or at least "the fastest boats around an inshore course". 

[Snip]

As far as comparing boats, consider the following.

  The development challenge for this cycle is more similar to what we saw with the AC72s than it is to the AC50 cycle. 

[Snip]

But what is the incentive to spend big $$ on dev? Just massaging the new gear will be enough work, at least for the first season. They will certainly be the fastest boats racing for a while.

And the ac72's saw huge development, especially when OR employed beast mode, opened the slot, changed the rake, and started full foiling upwind all in one week.

 

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6 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

AC45 F did it without problem. Most problems occured during crashes or close calls during the AC.

How many races did they actually foil? What was the top speed? How many manoeuvres were full foiling?

The 50's will be WAY different.

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