Tornado-Cat

AC75 vs F50 and Maxis

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, barfy said:

Rumour has it entz were over 60 testing the ac50

bahahahaha righto champ

3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

So, what boat will beat the 50 kts barrier first, F50 or AC75 ?

 I go with F50.

the F50 should crack it first but i think the ac75 will be faster a month or two into releasing the first full scale boats, that is if we ever get th know the speeds outside racing for the 75's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/12/2018 at 4:27 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

Pretty well explained here.

 

It doesn't look any faster.  The narrator even says that you can't really tell when it gets up on the foils, which would indicate that there is no dramatic acceleration.  So what is the point of "foiling" if it doesn't give you a performance/speed advantage?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Herfy said:

It doesn't look any faster.  The narrator even says that you can't really tell when it gets up on the foils, which would indicate that there is no dramatic acceleration.  So what is the point of "foiling" if it doesn't give you a performance/speed advantage?

Full foiling gives a clear speed advantage on flat water, however it is not as clear with waves. In the Course du Rhum, all foiling Maxis broke, Francis Joyon won with a simple and old concept of foil assist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, inebriated said:

bahahahaha righto champ

the F50 should crack it first but i think the ac75 will be faster a month or two into releasing the first full scale boats, that is if we ever get th know the speeds outside racing for the 75's

Agreed, however will the bigger and much more powerful AC75 beat the F50 speed ? Remains to be seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, inebriated said:

bahahahaha righto champ

the F50 should crack it first but i think the ac75 will be faster a month or two into releasing the first full scale boats, that is if we ever get th know the speeds outside racing for the 75's

Wtf do you know about what I know fuckwad?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, barfy said:

Wtf do you know about what I know fuckwad?

My understanding is that 50kts was well and truely broken in the gulf before they went to Bermuda. And they were told never to do it again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

On design? Don’t think so..

How long does dumbing down a 3 year old design take?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, nav said:

How long does dumbing down a 3 year old design take?

Dumbing down?? Lmao

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/15/2018 at 2:14 PM, Herfy said:

It doesn't look any faster.  The narrator even says that you can't really tell when it gets up on the foils, which would indicate that there is no dramatic acceleration.  So what is the point of "foiling" if it doesn't give you a performance/speed advantage?

Any faster than what, a non–foiling Whisper? As A Class said:

The whisper is a great boat … [but it] isn't designed as a flat out fast cat. It's designed as a foiler that can be sailed by as wide a group of people as possible. The foil control system is very simple but that has its limitations in both potential speed and the speeds that it can effectively work. Its a compromise that can be used because of the intentional limitations of the boat.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/15/2018 at 9:49 AM, mfluder said:

They better, they would've had at least a 6 month head start. 

 

Derrr..! F50 sailing now..! The AC75 has a long way to go... 

Better Question:  Which boat will end up clocking the fastest ever speed/run/leg..............................???????????????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, inebriated said:

source then

Did I not say rumours? You don't need to insult me because I said what I had heard.

There is some collaboration as well from another poster. Probably the their speed was too high, or the lee way too great, and the foils were never used.

I must say I won a fair bit of money betting on etnz based on that report and the first week of their sailing in bda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

End of the day, it doesn't matter how fast you're going if you're going in the wrong direction. Oracles speed across the ground was often faster than ETNZ's speed, but they had to sail much longer distances to achieve those speeds. They were destroyed by superior VMG. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2018 at 3:05 AM, RobG said:

Any faster than what, a non–foiling Whisper? As A Class said:

 

It looks like foiling is just for the sake of "foiling" on this boat, it is not any faster than non-foiling.  With all of the drag of the dual t-foils and control systems, I bet it is slower than even a non-foiling Cat  of the same design without the drag of the foils.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2018 at 10:24 PM, Tornado-Cat said:

Full foiling gives a clear speed advantage on flat water, however it is not as clear with waves. In the Course du Rhum, all foiling Maxis broke, Francis Joyon won with a simple and old concept of foil assist.

Unless your foiling system adds so much drag that it slows down the boat.  The guy in the video even says you can't tell that it is up on the foils except that you are higher out of the water.  No sudden acceleration that everyone notices when a boat typically jumps up on the foils.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2018 at 9:38 PM, inebriated said:

bahahahaha righto champ

the F50 should crack it first but i think the ac75 will be faster a month or two into releasing the first full scale boats, that is if we ever get th know the speeds outside racing for the 75's

Now that we are seeing that the design actually works, these boats are coming along nicely.  The Mule look very nice, but to me this whole AC design concept still looks very awkward, contrived and nowhere near as elegant as the F50's.  Some of the earlier AC flying cats were very unstable and hard to fly (based upon finding the loop holes in the rules), but the changes they have made in the F50 are remarkable.  They made enough changes in the design in order to maximize the performance on a stable platform.  Maybe I am just used to seeing the F50 type boats fly?

F50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Herfy said:

Now that we are seeing that the design actually works, these boats are coming along nicely.  The Mule look very nice, but to me this whole AC design concept still looks very awkward, contrived and nowhere near as elegant as the F50's.  Some of the earlier AC flying cats were very unstable and hard to fly (based upon finding the loop holes in the rules), but the changes they have made in the F50 are remarkable.  They made enough changes in the design in order to maximize the performance on a stable platform.  Maybe I am just used to seeing the F50 type boats fly?

F50

Its the difference between designing to a rule, and not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^ OR could have opened up the dev of the foils in 35, flaps were obviously the go and rudder adjustment when sailing would have helped tremendously.

They were too scared of a surprise, but they got one anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Herfy said:

this whole AC design concept still looks very awkward, contrived and nowhere near as elegant as the F50's.

I'm the opposite. I like the cats, and they're further down their evolutionary path, but I reckon they're close to their performance peak, and we're unlikely to see any more major gains. I'm very impressed from what I've seen from the Mule, and the speed we're seeing with soft sails. I suspect the monos are going to end up being quicker in tacks and gybes, where to me, the cats still look awkward. With their larger size the AC75's are going to have a presence unmatched by the cats. I consider the wing a bit of a downside as well. Whilst it's good for performance, it's logistically awkward, less relate-able to every day sailing, and lacks the subtlety of soft sail trimming.

Overall, I have way more excitement and anticipation for the AC75 than the F50. A lot of that can be put down to the AC75 being new, and the F50 being a somewhat known quantity, but I just get the feeling that the AC75's are going to be breath taking, and after AC36, no one is going to be talking about going back to the  cats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

I'm the opposite. I like the cats, and they're further down their evolutionary path, but I reckon they're close to their performance peak, and we're unlikely to see any more major gains. I'm very impressed from what I've seen from the Mule, and the speed we're seeing with soft sails. I suspect the monos are going to end up being quicker in tacks and gybes, where to me, the cats still look awkward. With their larger size the AC75's are going to have a presence unmatched by the cats. I consider the wing a bit of a downside as well. Whilst it's good for performance, it's logistically awkward, less relate-able to every day sailing, and lacks the subtlety of soft sail trimming.

Overall, I have way more excitement and anticipation for the AC75 than the F50. A lot of that can be put down to the AC75 being new, and the F50 being a somewhat known quantity, but I just get the feeling that the AC75's are going to be breath taking, and after AC36, no one is going to be talking about going back to the  cats.

I have always been in favor of soft wing for their ability to be reefed and sustain heavier conditions, perhaps the best would be a 75 cat with a double skin.

I agree that a mono can tack and gybe faster, however I still think the smaller F50 would be faster racing against the AC75.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I still think the smaller F50 would be faster racing against the AC75

The wing sail and lightness of the cat, versus the power of the bigger ballasted mono. It would be a fascinating contest.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I have always been in favor of soft wing for their ability to be reefed and sustain heavier conditions, perhaps the best would be a 75 cat with a double skin.

I agree that a mono can tack and gybe faster, however I still think the smaller F50 would be faster racing against the AC75.

I would back the AC75 even with soft sails.  We will never know unless the AC75 is a dog?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2018 at 7:54 AM, Herfy said:

It looks like foiling is just for the sake of "foiling" on this boat, it is not any faster than non-foiling.  With all of the drag of the dual t-foils and control systems, I bet it is slower than even a non-foiling Cat  of the same design without the drag of the foils.

So now you get the point. I doubt that it's slower than a non–foiling version in conditions where it can foil. Can you point to evidence of any existing boat where that is the case? There are number of other multis with similar systems.

The drag of the control system (i.e. the wands) is insignificant, the dual-T foil setup is not inherently slower than any other system (consider the same configuration where the windward foil can produce downforce). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Sailing in 9-10 kts, take off just over 14 kts

 

I hate to be the one to say it but that was some pretty rough sailing for a boat this mature and supposedly optimised... crashing up and down the foils, getting wet, messy tacks... I was expecting cleaner runs than that.... given who's sailing it and the new joystick flight control...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2018 at 12:33 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

 

I agree that a mono can tack and gybe faster, however I still think the smaller F50 would be faster racing against the AC75.

Hmmm.   I am interested to see whether a foiling mono at that size can gybe and tack faster than the F50. I am not saying it cannot, I am just saying that I am open minded and look forward to seeing the outcome.

Small improvements seem to help the F50 tack more smoothly than the AC35. Admittedly, difficult to judge based on the videos.

We all hope the AC 75 will be able to execute fast foiling tacks because that will enhance the tactical component but lets wait and see.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Their Achilles heel will be they didn't have the time or $$ to develop flap foils. They will wring what they can from this boat but are in a second generation cul de sac and will go the way of the dodo.

Be fun while it lasts tho

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the absence of flap foils is a question of time or money, they just decided to control the boat with the rudders as with planes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I hate to be the one to say it but that was some pretty rough sailing for a boat this mature and supposedly optimised... crashing up and down the foils, getting wet, messy tacks... I was expecting cleaner runs than that.... given who's sailing it and the new joystick flight control...

They just got on the "finished boat" a few days ago, I am sure they will be smoother soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, barfy said:

Their Achilles heel will be they didn't have the time or $$ to develop flap foils. They will wring what they can from this boat but are in a second generation cul de sac and will go the way of the dodo.

Be fun while it lasts tho

 

There are pros and cons to both systems (flaps or adjusting foil rake) that control gross lift - with the addition of more rudder stabilizer control, controlling rake allows you to level the platform for less drag (as has already been noted) as just one example where rake has an advantage.

So I'm thinking they're looking at this current version as 1.1, where they are simply maximizing the potential of the rake system - once they get that dialed, they can augment it with flaps at some point in the future (version 2.0), possibly borrowing tech from whatever the AC teams with their massive budgets come up with for the 75s. I don't think these boats are anywhere near the end of their development cycle - imagine a smart ride height controller that adjusted both rake and the flap simultaneously using algorithms that also used speed data etc. Or another possibility  - since you can control ride height without flaps, you would be free to design main foils that morphed into super cavitating shapes at extreme speeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, rh2600 said:

crashing up and down the foils, getting wet, messy tacks... I was expecting cleaner runs than that.... given who's sailing it and the new joystick flight control...

Testing new system in 9-10 kts of wind ? you show your bias.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Testing new system in 9-10 kts of wind ? you show your bias.

And you TC show yours ! Hey but they are both minor biases?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Testing new system in 9-10 kts of wind ? you show your bias.

Eh? What? The only bias shown in my comments is that I think Slingers is capable of sailing the AC50 better than what we see happening to the F50 in the video.

Are you suggesting he isn't a good and capable sailor?

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Hmmm.   I am interested to see whether a foiling mono at that size can gybe and tack faster than the F50. I am not saying it cannot, I am just saying that I am open minded and look forward to seeing the outcome.

Small improvements seem to help the F50 tack more smoothly than the AC35. Admittedly, difficult to judge based on the videos.

We all hope the AC 75 will be able to execute fast foiling tacks because that will enhance the tactical component but lets wait and see.     

I seriously doubt that an ac75 will tack faster than an f50 or ac35 cat.  Two reasons:

1) the cats HAD to tack fast, as the separation of their primary lifting foils laterally required that they turn quickly as the relative velocity of the 'new' foil would be slower, and that is a bad thing.  they had to turn fast, and get both foils moving quickly to come out of the tack (see skipper flying off the boat in a missed trip across the tramp.)

2) for the ac75 that same separation may exist, but a 75 foot boat, with lead in the foils for righting moment, should weigh more and therefore be able to carry their speed better - allowing for a slower turning requirement.

But that is my just thinking physics....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Loose Cannon said:

 ac35 cat.

Guys... its called an AC50...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, surfsailor said:

There are pros and cons to both systems (flaps or adjusting foil rake) that control gross lift - with the addition of more rudder stabilizer control, controlling rake allows you to level the platform for less drag (as has already been noted) as just one example where rake has an advantage.

So I'm thinking they're looking at this current version as 1.1, where they are simply maximizing the potential of the rake system - once they get that dialed, they can augment it with flaps at some point in the future (version 2.0), possibly borrowing tech from whatever the AC teams with their massive budgets come up with for the 75s. I don't think these boats are anywhere near the end of their development cycle - imagine a smart ride height controller that adjusted both rake and the flap simultaneously using algorithms that also used speed data etc. Or another possibility  - since you can control ride height without flaps, you would be free to design main foils that morphed into super cavitating shapes at extreme speeds.

Hope you are right and Larry will put down more $$$$$ to develop these boats. I'm thinking that the two year support will end without a huge influx of cash in the last year needed for dev,and then money may get tight. 

Selling broadcast rights will hobble the growth of the fan base, which is absolutely necessary for the existence of the series once Larry's money dries up. Big sponsors won't bite if there are only 15,000 that download the app like ac35.

Two years is coming up soon if you were to count the 6 months of construction already paid for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And my point also is that it was sad that more dev didn't get done in ac35 due to the restrictive rules based on OR's fear of the unknown. They were bombing around in a modified 45 just months after 34 and thought they had it sussed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, barfy said:

more dev didn't get done in ac35 due to the restrictive rules based on OR's fear of the unknown.

It turns out that they were right to fear the pesky Kiwis. Despite trying to stifle innovation, the Kiwis rose to the challenge, produced a boat different from all the others and kicked all their arses. Jimmy was right when he said they were too conservative, and that thought extends to the rule they came up with. Like you, I have my doubts about the longevity of the F50 series. As stated in the Sail-world piece, there's only going to be two hours of racing for the entire Sydney event. Seems like a lot of money and effort for two hours of action on the water. It doesn't add up to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That Sail-World piece had interesting tidbits, but the prodpect of 2 hours max on the water over 2 days in NYC with flukey wind is a shock.  But on the other hand, my husband who is less interested but willing to be dragged along on the trip thinks that's good so it will be "less boring."

There better be an open bar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Eh? What? The only bias shown in my comments is that I think Slingers is capable of sailing the AC50 better than what we see happening to the F50 in the video.

Are you suggesting he isn't a good and capable sailor?

Perhaps you missed: "I've been learning to how to steer again after a long time as a tactician…". You're allowing your passive–aggressive side to take over. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Kiwing said:

And you TC show yours ! Hey but they are both minor biases?!

Even though I favor the cat I am interested in the best boat and concept. I mean, not the slowest one....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RobG said:

Perhaps you missed: "I've been learning to how to steer again after a long time as a tactician…". You're allowing your passive–aggressive side to take over. 

Didn't slinger do quite well in the last world moths? Lucky for etnz that spithill is such narcissist I reckon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, RobG said:

Perhaps you missed: "I've been learning to how to steer again after a long time as a tactician…". You're allowing your passive–aggressive side to take over. 

Perhaps you missed me discussing flight, not steering...

Perhaps you missed the part in the F50 where the flight is typically controlled by another crew member called the flight controller.

I stand by my statement that I wasnt expecting such unstable flight for this mature and newly optimised boat and the calibre of who is onboard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Guys... its called an AC50...

America's Cup Class actually.....

If you insist on bringing size into it - it was an AC15.00

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Perhaps you missed me discussing flight, not steering...

Perhaps you missed the part in the F50 where the flight is typically controlled by another crew member called the flight controller.

I stand by my statement that I wasnt expecting such unstable flight for this mature and newly optimised boat and the calibre of who is onboard.

And we stand by our statements that the boats are new and the crews have only been on them a few days so optimized control may not yet be mastered.   dilly, dilly...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Perhaps you missed me discussing flight, not steering...

Perhaps you missed the part in the F50 where the flight is typically controlled by another crew member called the flight controller.

I stand by my statement that I wasnt expecting such unstable flight for this mature and newly optimised boat and the calibre of who is onboard.

nobody except for the skippers and blair tuke has controlled ride height

i would imagine sam newton and ky hurst would be grinding, while kyle is trimming

that leaves jason waterhouse to take ride height

you really think he could pull that off on the first session??

he's a gun on a foiling nacra, and did a bit of the ac50 for softbank, grinding or trimming i think

stop expecting these guys to pick shit up without even being in the boat, i'd like to see your fat ass trying to control an ac50's foils

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, inebriated said:

nobody except for the skippers and blair tuke has controlled ride height

i would imagine sam newton and ky hurst would be grinding, while kyle is trimming

that leaves jason waterhouse to take ride height

you really think he could pull that off on the first session??

he's a gun on a foiling nacra, and did a bit of the ac50 for softbank, grinding or trimming i think

stop expecting these guys to pick shit up without even being in the boat, i'd like to see your fat ass trying to control an ac50's foils

The flight control is nothing like Tukes/ETNZ

My arse is decidely skinny, and I'd suck at just about everything on this boat

It's not an AC50 using AC50 foils, isn't an F50 using F50 foils and flight control - which I expected to be more stable than that...

Again, as per usual, you are munted and still fail to comprehend basics I'm not talking about the sailors, but about the boat flight stability...

As you were...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, rh2600 said:

The flight control is nothing like Tukes/ETNZ

My arse is decidely skinny, and I'd suck at just about everything on this boat

It's not an AC50 using AC50 foils, isn't an F50 using F50 foils and flight control - which I expected to be more stable than that...

Again, as per usual, you are munted and still fail to comprehend basics I'm not talking about the sailors, but about the boat flight stability...

As you were...

i know it's nothing compared to ETNZ's. it would be way harder, the computer took all of the work away from tuke

it doesn't matter how stable it is, nobody's going to get flight as good as ETNZ's  auto ride height* in 2 hours of sailing, especially when that sailor hasn't ever controlled foils on a 50 foot flying cat. in the end, the sailors are controlling the boat, a great and stable boat can't fly at its full potential by someone who has been controlling foils for around 2-3 hours. wait at least a month before you start calling the boat stable or not

regardless, this is a bran new boat, lots of little tweaks to come i can imagine, they are probably compiling data and designs from 4 different teams from ast AC and using anything they can think of from ETNZ's boat. you can't expect them to just come out with the finished product straight out of the bag.

*nearly auto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, inebriated said:

i know it's nothing compared to ETNZ's. it would be way harder, the computer took all of the work away from tuke

Before you spout BS like that, you really should do some research, or just pay attention at the time...

ENTZ's whole system was manual just like everyone else's* - it had to be... the only thing any "computer" did was give Tuke an indicator much like an artificial horizon in a plane. It was simple, it was genius, and it was possible because he wasn't grinding with his hands at the same time - like everyone else. Other teams had indicators too but they weren't able to respond as quickly due to having to steer the boat (or grind).

I'll explain it another way - ETNZ's speed was due to great flight - which wasn't due to a computer-controlled flight control - it was due to a human being able to pay full constant attention to AoA on the foils...

* fun fact - those that were paying attention during Bermuda would know that all the teams had auto flight control - which they used for training and practicing, and they all turned off before the regatta proper, and switched back to manual control - including ETNZ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, inebriated said:

i know it's nothing compared to ETNZ's. it would be way harder, the computer took all of the work away from tuke

it doesn't matter how stable it is, nobody's going to get flight as good as ETNZ's  auto ride height* in 2 hours of sailing, especially when that sailor hasn't ever controlled foils on a 50 foot flying cat. in the end, the sailors are controlling the boat, a great and stable boat can't fly at its full potential by someone who has been controlling foils for around 2-3 hours. wait at least a month before you start calling the boat stable or not

regardless, this is a bran new boat, lots of little tweaks to come i can imagine, they are probably compiling data and designs from 4 different teams from ast AC and using anything they can think of from ETNZ's boat. you can't expect them to just come out with the finished product straight out of the bag.

*nearly auto

"you can't expect them to just come out with the finished product straight out of the bag"

Sure you can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, rh2600 said:

Before you spout BS like that, you really should do some research, or just pay attention at the time...

ENTZ's whole system was manual just like everyone else's* - it had to be... the only thing any "computer" did was give Tuke an indicator much like an artificial horizon in a plane. It was simple, it was genius, and it was possible because he wasn't grinding with his hands at the same time - like everyone else. Other teams had indicators too but they weren't able to respond as quickly due to having to steer the boat (or grind).

I'll explain it another way - ETNZ's speed was due to great flight - which wasn't due to a computer-controlled flight control - it was due to a human being able to pay full constant attention to AoA on the foils...

* fun fact - those that were paying attention during Bermuda would know that all the teams had auto flight control - which they used for training and practicing, and they all turned off before the regatta proper, and switched back to manual control - including ETNZ.

ok, i agree 

i just think that it is crazy to think that a sailor who has had fairly minimal experience on an ac50 compared to many others should be able to fly a brand new boat within 2-3 hours of sailing as well as teams who spent 3 years compiling a full package machine and with computer systems helping.

i 100% agree that this isn't as good sailing as ETNZ was showing towards the end of the cup, but it's unrealistic to think that it could ever be considering the amount of on water sailing the boats have done and how much the sailors have sailed these boats. by the end of last cup the skippers would of had crazy muscle memory for pressing buttons and controlling the boat, same with the wing trimmers. i can imagine that if the artemis sailing team gave oracle's boat a sail they'd really struggle just because of picking up the muscle memory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, mfluder said:

"you can't expect them to just come out with the finished product straight out of the bag"

Sure you can.

with a 45 that they tested a fair bit and how long on simulations???

that wasn't near the finished product when they first sailed it either, i would say we pobably would have seen a reversed result of ac34 if that was what they came into the cup match with

artemis could have beaten that with magic blue if that was what it was racing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

I guess based on the difficulties that you see for the teams on these new boats; first race should be hilarious. Can't wait.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Perhaps you missed me discussing flight, not steering...

Perhaps you missed the part in the F50 where the flight is typically controlled by another crew member called the flight controller.

I stand by my statement that I wasnt expecting such unstable flight for this mature and newly optimised boat and the calibre of who is onboard.

Steering, sail trim and foil controls need to be coordinated to keep the boat level. If anyone is out of sync, the boat doesn't stay level. I think the fact that such high quality sailors take a bit of practice to get it right shows just how difficult it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

whole squad's here, wow

Just now, barfy said:

^

I guess based on the difficulties that you see for the teams on these new boats; first race should be hilarious. Can't wait.

they won't be bad when it gets to racing, they'll each of trained on their own boats for a substantial amount of hours, learning the new platform, their new(ish) teams and building up their muscle memory until they hardly need to think to make adjustments in the setup while going 50+ knots

the video was taken during team australia's second 2 hour training session. nothing much to analyse other than the boat is different enough to their ac50 for it to be different to sail

wowee what a conclusion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, inebriated said:

whole squad's here, wow

they won't be bad when it gets to racing, they'll each of trained on their own boats for a substantial amount of hours, learning the new platform, their new(ish) teams and building up their muscle memory until they hardly need to think to make adjustments in the setup while going 50+ knots

the video was taken during team australia's second 2 hour training session. nothing much to analyse other than the boat is different enough to their ac50 for it to be different to sail

wowee what a conclusion

Each team will have substantial time with THEIR boats and shore team in Sydney before the first race. All teams will be ready and looking quite polished by the time they pass the first mark.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

Before you spout BS like that, you really should do some research, or just pay attention at the time...

ENTZ's whole system was manual just like everyone else's* - it had to be... the only thing any "computer" did was give Tuke an indicator much like an artificial horizon in a plane. It was simple, it was genius, and it was possible because he wasn't grinding with his hands at the same time - like everyone else. Other teams had indicators too but they weren't able to respond as quickly due to having to steer the boat (or grind).

I'll explain it another way - ETNZ's speed was due to great flight - which wasn't due to a computer-controlled flight control - it was due to a human being able to pay full constant attention to AoA on the foils...

* fun fact - those that were paying attention during Bermuda would know that all the teams had auto flight control - which they used for training and practicing, and they all turned off before the regatta proper, and switched back to manual control - including ETNZ.

It is obvious that ETNZ did an excellent job of separating out the task of the foil trim, designing a computer that would give them the optimal trim settings and then having a good pong player that could do what the computer told him to do.  Calling it manually controlled is just a technicality.  The computer determined the settings and the person was the “manual link” between the computer and the controls in order to not violate the rule.  It was a brilliant design, but don't make it any more than what it was.  If you follow a drive by drive GPS navigator to get somewhere, you don’t claim that you know the way by yourself manually.  Just as with the Grinders/cyclers it doesn’t really require sailing skills.  It was a good idea that won ETNZ the cup, you lose all credibility when you embellish it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, rh2600 said:

I stand by my statement that I wasnt expecting such unstable flight for this mature and newly optimised boat and the calibre of who is onboard.

Fast, stable, already faster than TNZ boat, soon breaking the 50 kts barrier, they smoke and I understand it sucks for you :D

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tornado-Cat said:

Fast, stable, already faster than TNZ boat, soon breaking the 50 kts barrier, they smoke and I understand it sucks for you :D

 

The question is, can they be faster than another boat thats racing against them? Its all well and good to show off when you're sailing around by yourself, but if you can't beat your opponent, all the show boating in the world won't help.

I think it will be a very telling factor if the AC75 can break the 50 knot barrier in its first generation, where the F50/ AC50 would've taken two generations of evolution to achieve that feat. That would suck for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, mfluder said:

The question is, can they be faster than another boat thats racing against them?

I think it will be a very telling factor if the AC75 can break the 50 knot barrier .....that would suck for you.

Yep, I would love to see both competing, and I would be pleased whatever the result because, unlike you kiwi fans,  I am for the faster boat :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, mfluder said:

I think it will be a very telling factor if the AC75 can break the 50 knot barrier in its first generation, where the F50/ AC50 would've taken two generations of evolution to achieve that feat. That would suck for you.

that's a pretty fucking dumb thing to say

like saying lets see if the new iphone will take better photos than the old samsung. of course it will, technology is just better now than before

plus the two boats are a whole new kettle of fish, the new ac75 is clearly more geared around a more open racecourse and higher top speeds while the ac50 was made for and optimised for courses that rewarded a more maneuverable boat and faster through tacks and jibes.

it will be very telling if the new ac75 boat can do a full race without the hulls touching the water like the ac50's could on their first generation over a year ago

apples and oranges

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think that the real test right now in the foiling community is cracking 100% flight time while not being super conservative. any resionably funded boat could crack 50 knots with the right team to design it, much harder to hold a good speed and stay on the foils for 100% of the time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, inebriated said:

i think that the real test right now in the foiling community is cracking 100% flight time while not being super conservative. any resionably funded boat could crack 50 knots with the right team to design it, much harder to hold a good speed and stay on the foils for 100% of the time

WTF? Did you not watch the last Americas Cup?? They cracked the 100% fly time multiple times!! The Kiwi's were the first to achieve the 100% fly-time around the course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, inebriated said:

that's a pretty fucking dumb thing to say

like saying lets see if the new iphone will take better photos than the old samsung. of course it will, technology is just better now than before

plus the two boats are a whole new kettle of fish, the new ac75 is clearly more geared around a more open racecourse and higher top speeds while the ac50 was made for and optimised for courses that rewarded a more maneuverable boat and faster through tacks and jibes.

it will be very telling if the new ac75 boat can do a full race without the hulls touching the water like the ac50's could on their first generation over a year ago

apples and oranges

Thats what this thread is about ya dumbass! Comparisons between the AC50/ F50 and the AC75.

It has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with Oracle trying to prevent a design breakthrough. It was a mindset that Oracle had where they feared teams might be able to out design them, so they made the majority of the AC50 Class boat OD. They weren't able to think outside the square. The Kiwi's were able to, and that same outside the box thinking may just produce a first generation boat that may just break the 50 knot barrier out of the box.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Herfy said:

It is obvious that ETNZ did an excellent job of separating out the task of the foil trim, designing a computer that would give them the optimal trim settings and then having a good pong player that could do what the computer told him to do.  Calling it manually controlled is just a technicality.  The computer determined the settings and the person was the “manual link” between the computer and the controls in order to not violate the rule.  It was a brilliant design, but don't make it any more than what it was.  If you follow a drive by drive GPS navigator to get somewhere, you don’t claim that you know the way by yourself manually.  Just as with the Grinders/cyclers it doesn’t really require sailing skills.  It was a good idea that won ETNZ the cup, you lose all credibility when you embellish it.

The other teams had indicators too.. they all had the same form of computer guidance they just couldnt pay by it enough attention... As described above. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, inebriated said:

whole squad's here, wow

Started from the bottom

 

giphy.gif

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, mfluder said:

WTF? Did you not watch the last Americas Cup?? They cracked the 100% fly time multiple times!! The Kiwi's were the first to achieve the 100% fly-time around the course.

He's acknowledged that he didn't... Which makes his assertions even more odd...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, mfluder said:

 WTF? Did you not watch the last Americas Cup?? They cracked the 100% fly time multiple times!! The Kiwi's were the first to achieve the 100% fly-time around the course.

yes, i saw it, though not live though @rh2600. very early/late for my time zone

i think though that it would be more impressive if the best ac75's could get races in with 100% fly time

i don't think it will be much of a question of which boat will be faster, the ac75 looks like it will be able to handle more wind and has more power avalable and that will beat the f50's unless the f50's bring something crazy out of the bag. (talking about straight line speed here)

that being said i thing the f50's will break 50 before the 75's, they're very close without big winds, it would just take a big day to get there i think (plus the organisers would froth getting there first). the 75's wont be out by then

 

3 hours ago, mfluder said:

 It has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with Oracle trying to prevent a design breakthrough. It was a mindset that Oracle had where they feared teams might be able to out design them, so they made the majority of the AC50 Class boat OD. They weren't able to think outside the square. The Kiwi's were able to, and that same outside the box thinking may just produce a first generation boat that may just break the 50 knot barrier out of the box.

 

didn't softbank or artemis set the top speed though?

i think what will be a great comparison though is which boat is faster around a course. i would imagine that by the end of the cycle each boat would win in their own courses, but the only way to tell is a race..... maybe a medium sized course would be good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, inebriated said:

 

yes, i saw it, though not live though @rh2600. very early/late for my time zone

i think though that it would be more impressive if the best ac75's could get races in with 100% fly time

i don't think it will be much of a question of which boat will be faster, the ac75 looks like it will be able to handle more wind and has more power avalable and that will beat the f50's unless the f50's bring something crazy out of the bag. (talking about straight line speed here)

that being said i thing the f50's will break 50 before the 75's, they're very close without big winds, it would just take a big day to get there i think (plus the organisers would froth getting there first). the 75's wont be out by then

 

didn't softbank or artemis set the top speed though?

i think what will be a great comparison though is which boat is faster around a course. i would imagine that by the end of the cycle each boat would win in their own courses, but the only way to tell is a race..... maybe a medium sized course would be good.

The problem is "Faster" is relative. There were many who said "ETNZ got lucky with the conditions in Bermuda" and that Oracle actually had the faster boat, and had the AC been raced in conditions like those seen towards the end of the Challenger final, Oracle may have won, even though Oracle had not even been able to beat Artemis Racing either.

Many others say an 8-1 scoreline has nothing to do with luck, and more to do with actually being faster. Jimmy Spithill admitted more than once, that the Kiwi's were faster.

They're never going to race the F50 against an AC75, so which boat is faster is always pure speculation. 

The 50's have had much more lead time (even though many F50 fans tend to deny this) in terms of design, existing technology, data taken from the AC50's in Bermuda, and just the fact that the F50 is more of a second generation AC50 design, free of constraints, where the AC75 is a new, unique concept no one has even seen before, let alone sailed, or raced, therefor, the F50 should, and probably will hit the 50 knot speed before the AC75. It would be hugely disappointing for the F50 if it can't, or doesn't, after all, thats what they've been billed as being able to achieve. Thats the selling point. To not break the 50, would mean all the design work, all the alterations and modifications have culminated in the fact that it isn't a really notable improvement on the AC50. 

That being said, if the AC75 can hit the 50 knot target, in its first iteration, which it just might, that would be a huge achievement for the ETNZ design team. If the concept can have flow on effects to different classes, that would be an even bigger achievement in terms of trickle down.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mfluder said:

Many others say an 8-1 scoreline has nothing to do with luck, and more to do with actually being faster. Jimmy Spithill admitted more than once, that the Kiwi's were faster.

... In the conditions at the extreme bottom of the allowable race wind speed; which is precisely what G Verdier also said. ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

... In the conditions at the extreme bottom of the allowable race wind speed; which is precisely what G Verdier also said. ;)

That maybe right, but they were within the "Allowable" wind speed, therefor they should've designed for that wind speed. A wind speed outlined in the protocol. The wind speed also allowed for consistent foiling with upwind speeds well into the 20's and downwind speeds well into the 30's. ETNZ were faster, that much is a fact. There's no denying or arguing that fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mfluder said:

they should've designed for that wind speed. A wind speed outlined in the protocol

Or changed the protocol.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, barfy said:

Or changed the protocol.

I think that might be a trick you can only really pull once, besides the Coast Guard belonged to another country this time round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, mfluder said:

The problem is "Faster" is relative. There were many who said "ETNZ got lucky with the conditions in Bermuda" and that Oracle actually had the faster boat, and had the AC been raced in conditions like those seen towards the end of the Challenger final, Oracle may have won, even though Oracle had not even been able to beat Artemis Racing either.

Many others say an 8-1 scoreline has nothing to do with luck, and more to do with actually being faster. Jimmy Spithill admitted more than once, that the Kiwi's were faster.

They're never going to race the F50 against an AC75, so which boat is faster is always pure speculation. 

The 50's have had much more lead time (even though many F50 fans tend to deny this) in terms of design, existing technology, data taken from the AC50's in Bermuda, and just the fact that the F50 is more of a second generation AC50 design, free of constraints, where the AC75 is a new, unique concept no one has even seen before, let alone sailed, or raced, therefor, the F50 should, and probably will hit the 50 knot speed before the AC75. It would be hugely disappointing for the F50 if it can't, or doesn't, after all, thats what they've been billed as being able to achieve. Thats the selling point. To not break the 50, would mean all the design work, all the alterations and modifications have culminated in the fact that it isn't a really notable improvement on the AC50. 

That being said, if the AC75 can hit the 50 knot target, in its first iteration, which it just might, that would be a huge achievement for the ETNZ design team. If the concept can have flow on effects to different classes, that would be an even bigger achievement in terms of trickle down.

 

I agree, yeah. Although I can imagine that while they say that there will be development on the f50, it won’t be nearly as much as on the ac75. Even with the resources that the circuit will have. It will become more stable and safer for sure, but probably not a whole lot faster. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, mfluder said:

The problem is "Faster" is relative. There were many who said "ETNZ got lucky with the conditions in Bermuda" and that Oracle actually had the faster boat, and had the AC been raced in conditions like those seen towards the end of the Challenger final, Oracle may have won, even though Oracle had not even been able to beat Artemis Racing either.

Many others say an 8-1 scoreline has nothing to do with luck, and more to do with actually being faster. Jimmy Spithill admitted more than once, that the Kiwi's were faster.

They're never going to race the F50 against an AC75, so which boat is faster is always pure speculation. 

The 50's have had much more lead time (even though many F50 fans tend to deny this) in terms of design, existing technology, data taken from the AC50's in Bermuda, and just the fact that the F50 is more of a second generation AC50 design, free of constraints, where the AC75 is a new, unique concept no one has even seen before, let alone sailed, or raced, therefor, the F50 should, and probably will hit the 50 knot speed before the AC75. It would be hugely disappointing for the F50 if it can't, or doesn't, after all, thats what they've been billed as being able to achieve. Thats the selling point. To not break the 50, would mean all the design work, all the alterations and modifications have culminated in the fact that it isn't a really notable improvement on the AC50. 

That being said, if the AC75 can hit the 50 knot target, in its first iteration, which it just might, that would be a huge achievement for the ETNZ design team. If the concept can have flow on effects to different classes, that would be an even bigger achievement in terms of trickle down.

 

I thought with ETNZ super simulator that their first boat on the water will actually be like the 2, 3, 10, 20th.... iteration?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, mfluder said:

They weren't able to think outside the square. The Kiwi's were able to, and that same outside the box thinking may just produce a first generation boat that may just break the 50 knot barrier out of the box.

Factually wrong, a brit and french think outside of the box in a TNZ team team thanks to muslim money :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Factually wrong, a brit and french think outside of the box in a TNZ team team thanks to muslim money :)

Actually Factually correct. Bernasconi is a Kiwi. Has been since 2011.

shutterstock-363416279.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Factually wrong, a brit and french think outside of the box in a TNZ team team thanks to muslim money :)

Money from a religion? You mean like Devos'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mfluder said:

Actually Factually correct. Bernasconi is a Kiwi. Has been since 2011.

 shutterstock-363416279.jpg

so james spithill is american?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

You mean like Devos'?

The Devos fortune came from the pyramid marketing scheme known as Amway, didn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

The Devos fortune came from the pyramid marketing scheme known as Amway, didn't it?

Is that not a religion? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Money from a religion? You mean like Devos'?

OK, do you prefer money from "dirty oil" ? so that you can still attack the "frackers" ?  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites