Tornado-Cat

AC75 vs F50 and Maxis

Recommended Posts

54 minutes ago, mfluder said:

^^Very cool boat, but its one thing to sail straight lines on a stretch of water by yourself with no other boats around, with one extra crew member, but can they achieve it on a short course with 5 other boats on the same course having to tack and gybe?

They will most probably do more that 50 kts on the race course. I would not be surprised to watch 6 boats screaming at over 50 kts to the same mark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

They will most probably do more that 50 kts on the race course. I would not be surprised to watch 6 boats screaming at over 50 kts to the same mark.

Because thats safe. Suddenly, now that its not the Americas Cup, "Safety" no longer matters? So I guess you'll stop with your "The AC75's are too dangerous" spiel now? Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, mfluder said:

Because thats safe. Suddenly, now that its not the Americas Cup, "Safety" no longer matters? So I guess you'll stop with your "The AC75's are too dangerous" spiel now? Thanks

No, because they are better boats now. As for the flying cow, let's wait to see one sailing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

No, because they are better boats now. As for the flying cow, let's wait to see one sailing.

"because they are better boats now"

lets wait and see them racing. IMO it doesn't matter how cool the boats are, if they're both "screaming at 50 knots into the same mark" there's going to be carnage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^ Not sure if you're saying fatalities will occur, but its just part and parcel of being part of an F1 type of event?

That's absolutely fine if that's what you're saying, and its completely understandable. And I completely agree.

There have been fatalities in many events in many sports, F1, Americas Cup, even Equestrian events, and we do have to accept that will happen, and fatalities will occur at some stage.

But its pretty hypocritical to complain about potential danger in one event, in one sport, while saying its perfectly acceptable in others. As long as organisers and competitors are doing everything they can to minimise harm, that's all we can ask for. We're never going to eliminate fatalities from extreme sport.

In terms of the AC75, that's exactly what the designers of the boat are doing/ Have done.

It seems the F50 fans are taking one stance saying "We can accept the dangers of this circuit, and the fact that someone may be killed one day, because the boats and speeds are cool  (even though in the past, those speeds have been deemed too dangerous) while they take the opposite stance with the AC75 "Nope, they should not have chose them because they're too dangerous, and someone will be killed one day" 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I reckon with the small tracks planned for the series that the winning strategy will be about clean manoeuvres, and good vmg to minimize said manoeuvres, rather than raw speed.

Just like what we saw in Ac35.

6 boats over 50 on the track? Maybe not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mfluder said:

 

..

There have been fatalities in many events in many sports, F1, Americas Cup, even Equestrian events, and we do have to accept that will happen, and fatalities will occur at some stage.

But its pretty hypocritical to complain about potential danger in one event, in one sport, while saying its perfectly acceptable in others. As long as organisers and competitors are doing everything they can to minimise harm, that's all we can ask for. We're never going to eliminate fatalities from extreme sport.

...

It seems the F50 fans are taking one stance saying "We can accept the dangers of this circuit, and the fact that someone may be killed one day, because the boats and speeds are cool  (even though in the past, those speeds have been deemed too dangerous) while they take the opposite stance with the AC75 "Nope, they should not have chose them because they're too dangerous, and someone will be killed one day" 

 

What I am saying is yes there is risk of death  in extreme sport.  In non-extreme sport at any level, as well  A high school friend died his senior year breaking his neck sliding home during a game.

Please note that I have not to best of my recollection taken opposite stances on safety merits of AC75  and F50.  

I do note that safety improvements can and do occur. I was surprised to see the last NASCAR cup series driver fatality was in 2001. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Harken Ice yacht I saw way back in 1980 did 137 mph. They ran their races OK and got round the marks OK despite some interesting closing speeds.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, inebriated said:

already have

 

Oracle topped ETNZ's speed a few times - In the wrong direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the AC, speed during a practice / test session means less than the ability to get from mark to mark in the least amount of time during racing.

For the F-50, speed during a practice / test session at this point actually means more.  It has the potential to add to the hype needed to promote interest in the series.

High top speeds during actual racing in early events will have a similar impact.

As such, we can expect those running the show to let these guys go as fast as they can (safely) and to let them do some bragging on the speeds.

For the AC, this is a "all new" development cycle where the teams are generally better off hiding as much as they can about performance for as long as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^The problem is, bragging means nothing unless you can walk your talk.

In terms of hype, this is still one of, if not the best pre-event hype video of raw footage.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^

 I agree there won't be a governor on the boats in the f50 racing.

And hype is good. I really think they are failing in this area, most footage has been on Instagram. They should be producing a mini of every team taking the boat thru it's paces, flash team shots, loud music. Hype.

But it's really apples and oranges comparing speed over ground on a free run to speed over ground while sailing deep towards a mark. Or even on a reaching start where the angle is defined largely by the pre start position rather than the optimum for speed.

Wait till the races go down then we will see what kind of improvement over the ac50 boats the dev team has achieved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

^

So this was probably covered last year but the ETNZ boat does not do the rocking horse thing. What was the diff wrt the Oracle boat that did?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, inebriated said:

already have

 

Nah, they've got several knots more to go before they beat what ETNZ was doing in the back paddock before they left for Bermuda...

the reason why you don't see a video on FB is they were keeping it secret at the time, not doing a promo vid for a new series...

still... cool story bro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was noticing how rock steady the ride, until she gets into the inner harbour then a bit looser. I am wondering if they had the training wheels on...i.e. Auto ride height. It was early days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

 

^

So this was probably covered last year but the ETNZ boat does not do the rocking horse thing. What was the diff wrt the Oracle boat that did?  

Is there a good clip/example of the OTUSA rocking horse motion you are referring to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

F50 circuit is intended to be the F1 of sailing, no?  A quick Google of "F1 fatalities" is not yielding a null result. https://f1.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_fatal_accidents

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_fatalities

 

People die sailing and it doesn't need to be an "extreme event" for that to happen. Someone died last Cowes Week, which takes place in sheltered inshore waters. People have died sailing dinghies on small lakes What's your point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

 

^

So this was probably covered last year but the ETNZ boat does not do the rocking horse thing. What was the diff wrt the Oracle boat that did?  

Im also interested in this, I would like to see a clip and fully understand what you mean.

Might it just be the shakey hands of a man in his 40s?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

People die sailing and it doesn't need to be an "extreme event" for that to happen. Someone died last Cowes Week, which takes place in sheltered inshore waters. People have died sailing dinghies on small lakes What's your point?

Well, that one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Im also interested in this, I would like to see a clip and fully understand what you mean.

Might it just be the shakey hands of a man in his 40s?!

I looked quickly on YouTube and did not see a good example, will post and ask again when I find one. It seemed really noticable on the Facebook videos on Oracle's site during the Cup. 

I am not familiar with catamarans, but was repeatedly struck by how rock steady about the horizontal axis the ETNZ AC50 was on its foils...as I remember it, the Oracle boat would keep rocking back and forth about the horizontal axis, bow down and up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, mfluder said:

^^ Not sure if you're saying fatalities will occur, but its just part and parcel of being part of an F1 type of event?

That's absolutely fine if that's what you're saying, and its completely understandable. And I completely agree.

There have been fatalities in many events in many sports, F1, Americas Cup, even Equestrian events, and we do have to accept that will happen, and fatalities will occur at some stage.

But its pretty hypocritical to complain about potential danger in one event, in one sport, while saying its perfectly acceptable in others. As long as organisers and competitors are doing everything they can to minimise harm, that's all we can ask for. We're never going to eliminate fatalities from extreme sport.

In terms of the AC75, that's exactly what the designers of the boat are doing/ Have done.

It seems the F50 fans are taking one stance saying "We can accept the dangers of this circuit, and the fact that someone may be killed one day, because the boats and speeds are cool  (even though in the past, those speeds have been deemed too dangerous) while they take the opposite stance with the AC75 "Nope, they should not have chose them because they're too dangerous, and someone will be killed one day" 

 

There is a thread on this topic.  It would welcome your contribution

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Nah, they've got several knots more to go before they beat what ETNZ was doing in the back paddock before they left for Bermuda...

 

First, we don't know, do you have any proof ? we did not see them doing that in Bda.

Second, the Video we have seen of TS seems to be with 15-16 kts wind, while the video of TNZ seems around 20-25 kts, in the famous place that was supposedly too dangerous for a cat :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

There is a thread on this topic.  It would welcome your contribution

 

I completely Agree!!!! If only they all thought like you!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mfluder said:

I completely Agree!!!! If only they all thought like you!!

Yes.  I say.....show theses heathens the way....put your money where your mouth is.....you should refuse to make any further contributions to this thread and only comment on the multihull thread. You would have my full support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

I looked quickly on YouTube and did not see a good example, will post and ask again when I find one. It seemed really noticable on the Facebook videos on Oracle's site during the Cup. 

I am not familiar with catamarans, but was repeatedly struck by how rock steady about the horizontal axis the ETNZ AC50 was on its foils...as I remember it, the Oracle boat would keep rocking back and forth about the horizontal axis, bow down and up. 

It's the AC72, in the video above - the start of all that followed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

in the famous place that was supposedly too dangerous for a cat :D

Be careful, people might take your jokes seriously ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

Be careful, people might take your jokes seriously ;)

Yep this place was declared too dangerous for cats, let's see how the flying cow fares :)

image.thumb.png.d74e71427c0a576e113d60cbb8fa5f47.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Yep this place was declared too dangerous for cats, let's see how the flying cow fares :)

image.thumb.png.d74e71427c0a576e113d60cbb8fa5f47.png

TBH I still can't tell if you are being serious or not... but just to re-iterate for the thousandth time in case others assume you are actually being serious..

  • Bream Bay (where the F50s are being tested in the northern sheltered part at certain times in certain specific conditions when the weather permits) is not the Hauraki Gulf where the AC36 is due to be sailed. It is quite literally, fucking miles away.
  • The photo above is the 45T running in the inner harbour of the city, also not where the AC is due to be sailed. The inner harbour of course can get wind chop as seen, but not significant swell seen out the Gulf.
  • Where the AC is due to be sailed is well documented, and has significantly different conditions and which also need to be sailed a lot during the regatta in order to keep to the schedule.

Of course TC is reasonably well informed as to the location of these various points of interest and the sea conditions possible, as they have been discussed ad nauseam for several months - which is why he must be joking ;-) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rh2600 said:
  • The photo above is the 45T running in the inner harbour of the city,.....
  • The inner harbour of course can get wind chop as seen, but not significant swell seen out the Gulf.

 

For sure it couldn't be sailed here either, not a place to race :)

 

Capture.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure why the don't schedule the AC in the Southern Ocean - see below photo as proof it's clearly calm enough...

yysw187676.jpg.489bdd6468f7392c5b4a9d3f3408449c.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

For sure it couldn't be sailed here either, not a place to race :)

 

Capture.PNG

You don't seem to get the fact that a third of the time, and more in the summer, there is short period ocean swell right there. Not when it's blowing from the west offshore as in this pic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, barfy said:

You don't seem to get the fact that a third of the time, and more in the summer, there is short period ocean swell right there. Not when it's blowing from the west offshore as in this pic.

I am sure you are right, which did not prevent that either.

image.png.fcd45e94451b98f1f620716027707bbe.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really?  You guys are hijacking this thread to argue again about an earlier AC?  Please get a life...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I think the argument is about where the AC75s can and can't sail - I think its relevant to the title ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I am sure you are right, which did not prevent that either.

image.png.fcd45e94451b98f1f620716027707bbe.png

See, this is the part you conveniently don't mention. That boat was designed and built to sail in anything between 5 knots and 33 knots, which was the wind range stipulated in the original protocol (before it was changed). That boat would easily handle any conditions thrown at it, including big waves. There's no way the AC50's would've handled anything close to that, in big waves. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/26/2018 at 12:30 PM, rh2600 said:

Nah, they've got several knots more to go before they beat what ETNZ was doing in the back paddock before they left for Bermuda...

 the reason why you don't see a video on FB is they were keeping it secret at the time, not doing a promo vid for a new series...

 still... cool story bro

hardy hardy har back paddock bla bla bla

1. unfinished boat

2. where are any reliable sources that can back you up there

3. nobody cares about speed of ac50's in regards to keeping it secret, so again, source?

4. if they hit the speeds you say they did, where was the outright, straight line speed in the cup matches, especially on the reaches from the start which was one of their weaker areas while racing artemis if i remember correctly

did we not all see what their boat did when the wind got up? clearly untested in heavy wind conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, inebriated said:

hardy hardy har back paddock bla bla bla

1. unfinished boat

2. where are any reliable sources that can back you up there

3. nobody cares about speed of ac50's in regards to keeping it secret, so again, source?

4. if they hit the speeds you say they did, where was the outright, straight line speed in the cup matches, especially on the reaches from the start which was one of their weaker areas while racing artemis if i remember correctly

did we not all see what their boat did when the wind got up? clearly untested in heavy wind conditions.

Cool story bro...

We could say ETNZ hit 150 knots and it wouldn't matter...

We've got the cup...

End. Of. The. Story...

Run along now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, inebriated said:

hardy hardy har back paddock bla bla bla

1. unfinished boat

2. where are any reliable sources that can back you up there

3. nobody cares about speed of ac50's in regards to keeping it secret, so again, source?

4. if they hit the speeds you say they did, where was the outright, straight line speed in the cup matches, especially on the reaches from the start which was one of their weaker areas while racing artemis if i remember correctly

did we not all see what their boat did when the wind got up? clearly untested in heavy wind conditions.

Dupe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, inebriated said:

hardy hardy har back paddock bla bla bla

1. unfinished boat

2. where are any reliable sources that can back you up there

3. nobody cares about speed of ac50's in regards to keeping it secret, so again, source?

4. if they hit the speeds you say they did, where was the outright, straight line speed in the cup matches, especially on the reaches from the start which was one of their weaker areas while racing artemis if i remember correctly

did we not all see what their boat did when the wind got up? clearly untested in heavy wind conditions.

Sleep it off asshole

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, barfy said:

Sleep it off asshole

 

13 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Cool story bro...

We could say ETNZ hit 150 knots and it wouldn't matter...

 We've got the cup...

End. Of. The. Story...

Run along now...

don't make claims you can't substantiate then

i care a whole lot about what speeds they hit in auckland before bermuda, i was saying though that nobody in the team cares about ac50's enough to keep it a secret

it would of actually come out by now from a credible source if they had hit the "high 50's" or whatever that you talk of

i know that team New Zealand has the cup, it's great!
but just because they beat oracle pretty easily in mid to low range winds doesn't mean that their boat was secretly ten knots faster than everyone else's before it was even finished

this is worse than the F50 rumours that you guys were so strongly against but ended up to be true, except you think that no evidence can just pass?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was never against the f50...just wondered about the late product launch.

Friend of friend told me the speed, I always stated it was a rumour. Lots of stuff the last couple cycles have not " come out".

Again, unless it's on the track it's all rumour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, inebriated said:

don't make claims you can't substantiate then

You claimed that ETNZ were "clearly untested in heavy wind conditions" which I think is not the case. In the race prior to the pitch pole they looked very good following, then passing BAR. In the pitch pole incident they looked a bit over confident or laissez faire, as they sheeted in and turned on the after burners. A bit like a car flooring the throttle then spinning out of control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Horn Rock said:

You claimed that ETNZ were "clearly untested in heavy wind conditions" which I think is not the case. In the race prior to the pitch pole they looked very good following, then passing BAR. In the pitch pole incident they looked a bit over confident or laissez faire, as they sheeted in and turned on the after burners. A bit like a car flooring the throttle then spinning out of control.

i claimed that they beat oracle in mid to low range winds

which is true

you see them a whole lot more beatable against artemis in the LV final in higher wind

i'm not saying that this is bad, they knew the conditions of bermuda and designed accordingly

but when heavy air sailing wasn't as good as their light air, especially in straight line speed (they made most of their gains on the tacks and jibes), it's hard to believe that they were the ones to go the crazy speeds.

11 minutes ago, barfy said:

I was never against the f50...just wondered about the late product launch.

Friend of friend told me the speed, I always stated it was a rumour. Lots of stuff the last couple cycles have not " come out".

Again, unless it's on the track it's all rumour.

i agree for the most part, what i was saying goes more for RH, who seems to look into things less than you but fights harder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

One of Presti’s recent clips showed a wickedly fast foiling tack.

Amazing tack after a few minutes sailing

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

"the F50 is expected to have a 12-15 percent performance improvement from its predecessor, the AC50, and once fully developed, the F50 should reach speeds well into the 50-knot range."

https://sailgp.com/news/sea-trials-recap

or about 5% faster than ETNZ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just got Jack Griffin' s letter

Regarding the foil arms, my bet is that, if they are not sure to be able to keep the dates for the first event in october, the foils arms won't be ready for the march 31st. Let's hope they resist the load test this time

Now the boat:

"American Magic and INEOS Team UK have both been sailing test boats Both have capsized. In some conditions the test boats need to be towed to get enough speed to transition to foiling mode. The transition from displacement mode to foiling mode is very tricky. The AC75 will have very little righting moment in displacement mode and will need to build speed to get up on the foils. During that transition, the AC75 will be vulnerable to capsize. Once up on the foils the AC75 will behave a bit like a trimaran without the floats - righting moment will be generated by the hull, the crew and the ballast on the windward foil." Jack Griffin

We come back to earlier discussions here, not only the boat will capsize displacement mode, trying to get on the foils, but also to windward when foiling. Well, we will have fun !

On the other side, I hope we can see AC50s racing fast and stable above 50 kts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Foil arm news as stated by entz a month ago

7 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

n the foils the AC75 will behave a bit like a trimaran without the floats - righting moment will be generated by the hull, the crew and the ballast on the windward foil." Jack Griffin

Not much like a trimaran really.

Sounds like you have it all figured out already TC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

On the other side, I hope we can see AC50s racing fast and stable above 50 kts.

Didn't know we had to pick sides - but good to see which side you've chosen... ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How heavy are the foil/foil arm assemblies,  thinking of them as ballast?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Didn't know we had to pick sides - but good to see which side you've chosen... ;-)

This thread is to compare the boats at the time we post. I recognize I always had bias for the cat but I still hope the new concept will improve sailing and trickle down.

That said, at this stage we can compare a proven boat vs a promising but uncertain concept, I am very anxious to see it sailing !

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cats are hot but since I have no hamster- on-trampoline capabilities I root for a monohull to fire up my fantasies.  ;)

But how much might the foils or foil/arm weigh?  True the foil can be hanging way out there, but still...anyone know how much the AC catamaran foils weighed? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Dan B. said the new boat will have 7 times the righting moment of the AC50. That's why Jack G. Is a bit off comparing them to a trimaran. Not even.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, barfy said:

1) I think Dan B. said the new boat will have 7 times the righting moment of the AC50.

2) That's why Jack G. Is a bit off comparing them to a trimaran. Not even.

1) The AC75 will be much more powerful, therefore has more potential if....it does not capsize before.

2) Jack G is right, and not only because I said it :). I don't know how you make this relation, tris are generally more powerful than cats, but the AC75 also has ballasted foil arms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

How heavy are the foil/foil arm assemblies,  thinking of them as ballast?  

They are quite heavy.  The Design Rule has a maximum of 1215 kg for each foil, and the center of mass of the foil + arm has to be more than 3.375 m from the cant axis.  The crew weight (including guest racer) is 1120 - 1150 kg, so each foil is more than the entire crew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

How heavy are the foil/foil arm assemblies,  thinking of them as ballast?  

It's all in the AC 75 class rule. Each foil is 970kg and its foil arm stock is 245kg, so 1215kg each side ±1%. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, thanks Basilicus and RobG. So isn't that a very different (proportionately) weight profile and distribution than the Ineos test boat or the Am Magic Mule? Those foils look pretty light and they are thin.  A thousand pound foil is going to not be a thin blade, is it?  I remember the drawings in the rule but had forgotten them looking at the test boats. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

A thousand pound foil is going to not be a thin blade, is it?

Make that a 2,138 lb foil (1kg≈2.2lb).

Steel weighs about 7.6 t per cubic metre, stainless steel is about 8.0 t per cubic metre. The foils need a certain amount of bulk to get enough strength, I'm pretty sure the design team has done their homework and making the weight ±12kg won't be an issue.

I think the the trick is that if the boat is flat, it will be sticky and not want to foil. So they'll need a bit of heel to reduce wetted surface and get to foiling speed. Leeward heel loads up the leeward foil so it needs to lift more. As soon as the boat is foiling, they'll want it flat again, or slightly to windward. Or maybe they'll do the Moth thing and heel to windward to get foiling, feathering the main to get heel then bearing away and sheeting on to stop falling in to windward and using the power to get foiling.

However they do it, it'll take great coordination between helm and mainsail trimmer, with foil control trying to maximise lift without disturbing the other two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobG said:

I think the the trick is that if the boat is flat, it will be sticky and not want to foil. So they'll need a bit of heel to reduce wetted surface and get to foiling speed

That's interesting, surface tension you reckon? Only flat bottom foiler I can think of that doesn't change its heel on transition is a SUP. Anyone have an idea if those folk change their roll aspect to "pop out"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, barfy said:

That's interesting, surface tension you reckon?

That, but mostly lack of RM to trade for power get up to speed. You see it on the foiling cats: if they heel to leeward too far when trying to get up, they don't get foiling (or at least struggle and look pretty ugly). They have get to foiling speed while staying pretty flat.

It might be easier to get foiling going downwind, but that has issues too with keeping the bow up, perhaps that's the code zero's job?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, RobG said:

y'll need a bit of heel to reduce wetted surface and get to foiling speed. Leeward heel loads up the leeward foil so it needs to lift more. As soon as the boat is foiling, they'll want it flat again, or slightly to windward. Or maybe they'll do the Moth thing and heel to windward to get foiling, feathering the main to get heel then bearing away and sheeting on to stop falling in to windward and using the power to get foiling.

I think this is going to be a really interesting problem for the teams to solve. All in the hull shape to gain liftoff quickly....

Is there any chance we could see some radical hull designs? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, RobG said:

 they'll need a bit of heel to reduce wetted surface and get to foiling speed.

They mainly need maximum RM to build speed, they can get it with the width of the hull, the crew and the position of the windward ballasted foil. The last one may also induce ww capsize.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can pontificate about "acceptable risk" until the cows fly home, but the fact is that if one crewmember is killed by one of the spar/foil combinations that AC is over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, McGyver said:

We can pontificate about "acceptable risk" until the cows fly home, but the fact is that if one crewmember is killed by one of the spar/foil combinations that AC is over.

Really?

 Whatever makes you say that? 

These are high speed, powerful beasts. With that comes risk. No-one wants to see a fatality but if there is one then I don't believe for one second that they'll pull the plug on the event. History backs up this belief, previous AC's, the Fastnet, Sydney-Hobart etc have all seen fatalities and yet they continue to be held.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, RobG said:

That, but mostly lack of RM to trade for power get up to speed. You see it on the foiling cats: if they heel to leeward too far when trying to get up, they don't get foiling (or at least struggle and look pretty ugly). They have get to foiling speed while staying pretty flat.

It might be easier to get foiling going downwind, but that has issues too with keeping the bow up, perhaps that's the code zero's job?

Much more opportunity with these foils to adjust cant to provide the best lift vector regardless of platform heel. There may be some surprising solutions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, McGyver said:

We can pontificate about "acceptable risk" until the cows fly home, but the fact is that if one crewmember is killed by one of the spar/foil combinations that AC is over.

I don't believe that. Many people were questioning the safety of the AC72, and then a sailor was killed. The event continued, the event is still seen as the pinnacle of the sport professionally, so while any fatality would be a tragedy, it would not end the AC. Its the same with any sport, its a matter of minimising the risk and having contingency plans, but you're never going to eliminate the risk, and therefor the chance of fatalities in sport. With speed and pushing the boundaries comes the risk of serious harm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes.  There continue to be F1  auto racing fatalities (see Wikipedia) and had been in NASCAR but not lately.  Remember Dale Earnhardt (the one who REALLY said "second is first loser") died racing the Daytona 500 a long time ago. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Woolfy said:

Really?

 Whatever makes you say that? 

These are high speed, powerful beasts. With that comes risk. No-one wants to see a fatality but if there is one then I don't believe for one second that they'll pull the plug on the event. History backs up this belief, previous AC's, the Fastnet, Sydney-Hobart etc have all seen fatalities and yet they continue to be held.

Allow me to clarify a difference.  Yes, the Fastnet and other sports  had had deaths, but they mostly out of sight, it would be very different to see a crewmember sliced in two on live TV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deaths in sport have been recorded since the invention of cameras...

Le mans - still going strong...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/30/2019 at 3:40 AM, barfy said:

Much more opportunity with these foils to adjust cant to provide the best lift vector regardless of platform heel. There may be some surprising solutions.

Sure, lift vector and heel can be almost completely uncoupled, particularly given independent flaps. I just think they'll want heel to reduce wetted surface, and it should be more effective (though trickier) to heel to windward than leeward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An interesting, scaled down example regards wetted surface would be the SUP foilers, no one has shared any info. 

Do the Sups give a little edge roll to pop up? They are seriously marginally powered and flat bottomed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, barfy said:

An interesting, scaled down example regards wetted surface would be the SUP foilers, no one has shared any info. 

Do the Sups give a little edge roll to pop up? They are seriously marginally powered and flat bottomed.

You easily adjust AoA on a sup by just rocking back a little in order to bring out of water, so I'm not sure how similar hull surfaces would be to compare with lift-off on boat?...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/29/2019 at 8:12 PM, rh2600 said:

Deaths in sport have been recorded since the invention of cameras...

Le mans - still going strong...

Did you watch the video to the end?  Mercedes Benz did not compete again for 32 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, McGyver said:

Did you watch the video to the end?  Mercedes Benz did not compete again for 32 years.

I didn't need to watch to the end to know the outcome - I'm more than familiar with the incident and others.

You appear to be continually walking back and "clarifying" your original position that the AC cycle would be over if there was a death. Now it appears what you meant is that the team concerned would bail from the event? The only two recent events Artemis and Scallywag demonstrate otherwise on that one too....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to dismiss the strength of video.  Yes, we KNOW that Artemis lost a crew.  Would have been the same with an HD camera showing his desperate struggle to untangle himself until he drowned?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, barfy said:

^

Completely unrealistic.

Could you be a bit more specific?  What is unrealistic? An HD camera that works underwater? Realistic.  A crewmember tangled in the miriiad lines on a cat? Realistic.  Struggling and drowning, unfortunately realistic.  We were lucky so little was said about Artemis' loss.  Which some people found suspicious, but let leave it there.

Just imagine a crew sliced in two in HD TV, entrails falling in the water,   and then you tell me the AC will go on as if never had happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will go on. Not as if, but go on.  We saw astronauts and a teacher killed live on TV and (with a pause) the Shuttle flew again. We heard 3 men burn alive and sent John Glenn into orbit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NeedAClew, Barfly, rh2600:  have you seen a guillotine at work?  I saw some old films.  The Shuttle was just a big explosion.  Bart's was a death that nobody saw.  Le Mans was more impressive and I bet that nowadays they would have stopped the race,

Hey, maybe everything will be hunky dory.  But you have to admit that boats crossing at a combined speed of 70 or so knots carrying knives on their topsides are dangerous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, McGyver said:

NeedAClew, Barfly, rh2600:  have you seen a guillotine at work?  I saw some old films.  The Shuttle was just a big explosion.  Bart's was a death that nobody saw.  Le Mans was more impressive and I bet that nowadays they would have stopped the race,

Hey, maybe everything will be hunky dory.  But you have to admit that boats crossing at a combined speed of 70 or so knots carrying knives on their topsides are dangerous.

It is dangerous. No doubt.  But my impression is that in an era of YouTube live citizen video, etc. some of us are inured to gruesome carnage. Is that good? Probably not. But some of us are.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites