Tornado-Cat

AC75 vs F50 and Maxis

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Pretty certain Lion Breweries is actually Japanese (Kirin) if you follow the money all the way to the source.  They bought it a few years back from memory.

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6 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Those 3 links no work for me TC.

Sorry for that, try with Google. But I'll also try a screen copy.

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^^ Twin T foils? hard to tell from the render?

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Twin T foil and flying high but for test only I guess, the above boat is the test boat. They will have sophisticated systems to estimate the real wind speed/direction, not only at the top of the mast and two types of sensors to evaluate how high they fly, one being a kind of radar., another one what we find on drones.

The foil is not pushing partially on the side like the Vampire project so they may lack some power, IMO.

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Best ocean foiling multis will be foiling at Cowes today, 1:30 pm local times, Spithill will be on Macif with Gabart.

I think it will be possible to watch on this link, it will be very interesting to compare the concepts.

https://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/live

 

Live now, I'll wait before going on the water, we will have a show of the best ocean foiling multis in 8 minutes ! Cloudy on the Channel and about 10 kts of wind now.

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6 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Best ocean foiling multis will be foiling at Cowes today, 1:30 pm local times, Spithill will be on Macif with Gabart.

I think it will be possible to watch on this link, it will be very interesting to compare the concepts.

https://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/live

 

But no Tracker! This is sickening.

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Cammas and Caudrelier on Edmond de Rothchild  are favorite for me, Macif with Gabard and Spithill challenger, as well as Sodebo with Coville.

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Watched the start of the Fastnet. Amazing collection of boats. Was a pity it was so light, but still good to watch the enormous Ultims, followed by the Imoccas. Such a pity they won't let multis or any type of foiler into the Hobart, instead we have to watch the same old boats every year. They should rename it the Wild Oats Hobart race.

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4 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Watched the start of the Fastnet. Amazing collection of boats. Was a pity it was so light, but still good to watch the enormous Ultims, followed by the Imoccas. Such a pity they won't let multis or any type of foiler into the Hobart, instead we have to watch the same old boats every year. They should rename it the Wild Oats Hobart race.

The start was great !

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On 8/3/2019 at 11:30 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

Cammas and Caudrelier on Edmond de Rothchild  are favorite for me, Macif with Gabard and Spithill challenger, as well as Sodebo with Coville.

As guessed, first EDR, second Macif but with only 48 seconds advance !

Edmond de Rothchild was designed by Verdier and Macif by VPLP, funny when we know the origin of the first V from VPLP.

Both foiling multis have different designs, Macif is faster downwind under 10 kts and EDR between 10 to 16 kts. When they fly it's difficult to tell the difference.

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Happy to see Maxi EdR win with a record.  Love the IMOCA EdR, now Malizia, but the name change seems to have brought bad luck.

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A bit about the T35 from my news feed. Automatic ride height control intended for high speed, owner driver foiling on lakes AND as an international class on open waters. EB pretty psyched.

I do think owner driver is a lot more appealing than owner watcher, for the owner who is paying and in shape to do it.

https://yachtracing.life/tf35-foiling-cat-debuts-on-lake-geneva-switzerland/

 

 

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15 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

TF35 vs D35, they will need a flatter and smaller gennaker.

 

What is the point if that foiling isn't much faster than keeping the hull in the water?

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5 hours ago, Herfy said:

What is the point if that foiling isn't much faster than keeping the hull in the water?

"Much" is a relative term, not losing a race by much is still losing...

Besides that is one point of sail in one set of conditions, remember there was a time people also thought the Artemis AC72 might be faster than the ETNZ one...

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5 hours ago, Boybland said:

"Much" is a relative term, not losing a race by much is still losing...

Besides that is one point of sail in one set of conditions, remember there was a time people also thought the Artemis AC72 might be faster than the ETNZ one...

Those two boats wouldn't sail against each without handicaps, so a few knots advantage is meaningless in racing.  Also, where is the thrill of foiling if you are only going about 12 knots!  I know it is designed to be an easy to sail foiler, but a F50 would have sailed by it like it was standing still.

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12 hours ago, Herfy said:

What is the point if that foiling isn't much faster than keeping the hull in the water?

Well, it's true that the difference does not appear huge however the foiler is faster than we see because the observer is moving forward. Also, the foiler will improve and get smaller front sails. The difference may also be more important in stronger wind.

On the other hand, with lighter conditions the foiler will have more drag and be slower, and in very strong conditions the foilers may be less powerful because higher on the water and more subject to the waves.

Still, at the end I think the foiler is a winner, mainly on a lake.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Well, it's true that the difference does not appear huge however the foiler is faster than we see because the observer is moving forward. Also, the foiler will improve and get smaller front sails. The difference may also be more important in stronger wind.

On the other hand, with lighter conditions the foiler will have more drag and be slower, and in very strong conditions the foilers may be less powerful because higher on the water and more subject to the waves.

Still, at the end I think the foiler is a winner, mainly on a lake.

 

 

With marginal increase in speed, the foiler is just an expensive novelty.  So what does that say for the designers if they can't even get the sail area correct in their "signature race"?  Adding complexity, expense and lack of versatility to a boat just to follow the current fad, but not improving performance, is not a winning model.  

The true performance foiling cats are inherently dangerous as they accelerate up on foils.  They all have the same problems of needing larger sail area to get up on the foils and then needing much less area  when foiling to reduce drag.  It seems natural that the consumer version would have easy furling sails to overcome this issue.  Also, as the designers make the boats "safer" they add so much drag that it negates a great deal of the foiling advantages.  I am by no means an expert, but it looks like many of these designers are just copying AC designs without understanding the limitations and how to give the performance yet make it safer and easier to use.

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5 hours ago, Herfy said:

With marginal increase in speed, the foiler is just an expensive novelty.  So what does that say for the designers if they can't even get the sail area correct in their "signature race"?  Adding complexity, expense and lack of versatility to a boat just to follow the current fad, but not improving performance, is not a winning model.  

The true performance foiling cats are inherently dangerous as they accelerate up on foils.  They all have the same problems of needing larger sail area to get up on the foils and then needing much less area  when foiling to reduce drag.  It seems natural that the consumer version would have easy furling sails to overcome this issue.  Also, as the designers make the boats "safer" they add so much drag that it negates a great deal of the foiling advantages.  I am by no means an expert, but it looks like many of these designers are just copying AC designs without understanding the limitations and how to give the performance yet make it safer and easier to use.

This whole post is extremely ironic. When there was complaints about the F50's performance, SailGP fans were/ are saying "The teams just need time to train in the boats. Once they get time in the boats, the performance will improve" This boat has been out of the shed for a few days and those SailGP fans are shitting on it saying things like "what does that say for the designers if they can't even get the sail area correct in their "signature race"?" and "Adding complexity, expense and lack of versatility to a boat just to follow the current fad, but not improving performance, is not a winning model"

This is by far the most ironic statement of the whole post "I am by no means an expert, but it looks like many of these designers are just copying AC designs without understanding the limitations and how to give the performance yet make it safer and easier to use"

All of these things can be said about the F50. Literally, everything, and they are said, but the response is always "I don't understand why you are hating on something thats only been around for a short time, it will improve, just give it time" hahaha double standards much? lol

 

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Got a point there, For.

I hope they do well. Seemingly intended to be boats rich people will buy and have fun fielding teams with. And sailing. 

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3 hours ago, Forourselves said:

This whole post is extremely ironic. When there was complaints about the F50's performance, SailGP fans were/ are saying "The teams just need time to train in the boats. Once they get time in the boats, the performance will improve" This boat has been out of the shed for a few days and those SailGP fans are shitting on it saying things like "what does that say for the designers if they can't even get the sail area correct in their "signature race"?" and "Adding complexity, expense and lack of versatility to a boat just to follow the current fad, but not improving performance, is not a winning model"

This is by far the most ironic statement of the whole post "I am by no means an expert, but it looks like many of these designers are just copying AC designs without understanding the limitations and how to give the performance yet make it safer and easier to use"

All of these things can be said about the F50. Literally, everything, and they are said, but the response is always "I don't understand why you are hating on something thats only been around for a short time, it will improve, just give it time" hahaha double standards much? lol

 

Your logic is ridiculous.  The lack of training time with the F50's is with optimizing speed (48 knots instead of 41 knots), handling maneuvers, shifting winds and heavy seas.  It is the difference between the US crew and the Aussies.  All of the F50 crews were able to sail 40+ knots in a straight line the very first day they sailed the boats.  The TF35 video is a straight line drag race with another boat that has it's hull in the water.  Of course it will take time for the crew to master all of the variables and maneuvers, but it sure doesn't take off like a rocket when it is on it's foils.

The TF35 is designed as a safe, simple to use foiler, but it looks like it has too much drag.  My original point was, "why foil when it isn't much faster than keeping a hull on the water".

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5 hours ago, Herfy said:

Your logic is ridiculous.  The lack of training time with the F50's is with optimizing speed (48 knots instead of 41 knots), handling maneuvers, shifting winds and heavy seas.  It is the difference between the US crew and the Aussies.  All of the F50 crews were able to sail 40+ knots in a straight line the very first day they sailed the boats.  The TF35 video is a straight line drag race with another boat that has it's hull in the water.  Of course it will take time for the crew to master all of the variables and maneuvers, but it sure doesn't take off like a rocket when it is on it's foils.

The TF35 is designed as a safe, simple to use foiler, but it looks like it has too much drag.  My original point was, "why foil when it isn't much faster than keeping a hull on the water".

Your logic is ridiculous! "The lack of training time with the F50's is with optimizing speed, handling maneuvers, shifting winds and heavy seas" IN OTHER WORDS PRETTY MUCH EVERY ASPECT OF SAILING THE BOATS. 

The TF35 video is a raw, deceptive clip of two boats being filmed from another moving boat. If that clip was filmed from a stationery site, I'm betting that video would look completely different. 

The TF35 is doing exactly what it was designed to do straight out of the box, something the F50's weren't able to do.

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On 8/24/2019 at 5:12 AM, Herfy said:

Those two boats wouldn't sail against each without handicaps, so a few knots advantage is meaningless in racing.  Also, where is the thrill of foiling if you are only going about 12 knots!  I know it is designed to be an easy to sail foiler, but a F50 would have sailed by it like it was standing still.

Bollocks,  in those conditions an F50 would still be displacement sailing. 

The TF35 is designed for sailing in Lake Geneva, this means it is designed for extremely light wind racing.

In the test sailing the TF is significantly gadget than the D once it is foiling. 

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15 hours ago, Potter said:

Bollocks,  in those conditions an F50 would still be displacement sailing. 

The TF35 is designed for sailing in Lake Geneva, this means it is designed for extremely light wind racing.

In the test sailing the TF is significantly gadget than the D once it is foiling. 

What do you mean ?

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51 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What do you mean ?

My guess, if I may, is that he means "significant slower". But I may be wrong...  B)

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What do you mean ?

Makes more sense than you do half the time. :huh:

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