full circle

"fu ws" (from the front page)

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from the front page. if they do away with the laser and laser radial classes for the singlehanded division, what boats will they switch to for the 2024 olympics?

i see in the link that they are testing a couple versions of different boats, but which will be for male and female classes?

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2 minutes ago, full circle said:

from the front page. if they do away with the laser and laser radial classes for the singlehanded division, what boats will they switch to for the 2024 olympics?

In order to integrate both sexes, there will be no single handed boats. Only mixed classes.

Sailing is not Track and Field. Though with the gender bending going on in T&F maybe sailing should look into that aspect.

LOL

Sailing should voluntary withdraw from the Olympics so Sailing can determine it's own future. But there are too many pussy men running sailing.

 

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I heard that Olympics is replacing Soccer with Snowflake Round Ball.  It’s played with a Soccer ball on a round field.  There are no goal cages or scoreboards.  A bunch of people will go out in the field and kick balls around. Everybody will receive a Gold Medal.  Transsexual participants will receive two medals.

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None of the boats suggested in the memo have even remotely the word wide spread that the Laser has, including in developing countries where it really matters. Shit, the Aero doesn't even have national class associations.( While it does have a reasonable presence here, and it's a healthy up and coming class, not arguing that.) Is the Melges 14 sailed outside of the US? 

If we can't even keep sailing in the paralympics, common sense tells me that the Laser isn't going where. But there is no common sense in WS or the Olympics.. Easier to light it all on fire and walk away

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Pretty poor response from ILCA though - the recommendation is to assess a change, which assessment will presumably take into account things like the above no? So why not a response saying ‘we welcome the assessment to ensure the best boat is chosen and are confident that the reliability/popularity/spread/etc of the Laser will see it prevail’? Saying ‘we’re surprised and disappointed’ suggests resignation to the fact that the other boats are better chosen.

 

am I missing out on a paycheque or entirely naive?

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The announcement does NOT say that the Laser is being dropped. the four candidates for the single handed class include the Laser and emphasize:

"The Board’s Re-evaluation Working Party has reviewed the bids and has recommended to the Board that World Sailing should proceed to select new equipment with additional
recommendation that the existing equipment (Laser/ILCA) is included as a full option in this process."

The ICLA open by announcing with the somewhat misleading statement:

"The International Laser Class Association is surprised and disappointed by the announcement today that the World Sailing Board has recommended to select new equipment to replace the Laser and Laser Radial Classes for the one-person dinghy events in the 2024 Olympic Games. " 

but correct themselves later by adding ;

"The ILCA is pleased to note that the board’s announcement indicates that the Laser and Laser Radial Classes will be included in the proposed equipment “sea trials” to be held if the board’s proposal is approved by a vote of the World Sailing Council. The sea trials would take place among the Laser Classes and the three other shortlisted candidate classes, so the possibility remains that the Laser and Laser Radial will ultimately be confirmed as the equipment for the 2024 Olympic one-person dinghy events."

If the Laser thought for a moment that their position as the single handed dinghy was not going to be reviewed, they must have been smoking something.

That said, I actually hope the Laser is retained.

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, resist said:

Pretty poor response from ILCA though - the recommendation is to assess a change, which assessment will presumably take into account things like the above no? So why not a response saying ‘we welcome the assessment to ensure the best boat is chosen and are confident that the reliability/popularity/spread/etc of the Laser will see it prevail’? Saying ‘we’re surprised and disappointed’ suggests resignation to the fact that the other boats are better chosen.

 

am I missing out on a paycheque or entirely naive?

+ 1. Much better response.

They should hire you!

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I've heard that replacing the Tornado with a single manufacturer boat was a huge disaster.  You're giving someone monopoly power...

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4 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

I've heard that replacing the Tornado with a single manufacturer boat was a huge disaster.  You're giving someone monopoly power...

My understanding is that they will not give a monopoly this time. Each of the 4 options needs to explain how they will allow other builders as part of the evaluation process.

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I think the Melges, despite not have the big fleets internationally will do ok in this process.  Mackay have a track record of success in the Olympic trial process.

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I'm not sure you can say the Tornado replacement was a huge disaster at all but it's not a clean experiment.They simultaneously specified a new boat and then awkwardly developed foiling by changing the class in phases over several games while evidently trying to avoid a box rule arms race like in Moth. So any other approach save sticking with the old boat would have produced different problems.

Anyway, I hope this process for the dinghy involves lots of back to back sailing comparisons by a broad cross section of men and women across all sizes so it will become abundantly clear to all at the same time that the laser is really old. I can't say I've sailed any of the other boats being considered but if the comparison is anything like a Hobie 16 vs Nacra 500, the new boat will be a vast improvement and ultimately make the sport more fun and attractive.

On the subject of the installed base, it's true you can provide some level of affordability if you have a large fleet, but what we see in lasers here is there are lots of $800-$1000 boats but if you want to be remotely competitive you are looking at >$5000 and the same goes for Optimists. So while you can get a lot of time on a cheap boat if you want, it's still not super affordable to go racing competitively. The kids I know are going to skiffs and cats so they need to do something with these dinghies...

 

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16 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

I think the Melges, despite not have the big fleets internationally will do ok in this process.  Mackay have a track record of success in the Olympic trial process.

 

The Aero has probably a 10:1 lead in boat sales, and 2018 Aero Worlds had 200+ boats racing already.

So, while the Melges is less technologically advanced and more expensive, and owned by a company with extremely limited distribution around the world, you're confident it will be picked the winner over the other four.

Clearly the OZone layer being gone in AUS is frying more than your skin... 
 

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Whether Rastegar will be able to find a way to avoid mismanaging this remains to be seen. The ongoing debacle that is Laser Performance and his other companies suggests this will be a failure. 

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I owned a sunfish then a laser for many years - after seeing it recently if I were to get another single hand boat it would be the Aero.  The fleets are coming and the boats are just so much better.  If you want to make sailing better get better boats.  The laser was awesome and a game changer, emphasis on was.

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Who actually watches the corrupt and drug laden olympics anyways?  

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It wasn't mentioned in the announcement but one consideration for the forthcoming boat selection trials is the ease of handling/managing of the equipment, especially at underdeveloped racing locations in the developing world. While I prefer the Melges personally, I believe the Aero has a big leg up here. The hull shape of the Aero is designed to allow the boats to be stacked inside one another (up to five deep I think) facilitating easier fleet movements (one trailer brings five boats). Also, the design of the mast of the Aero has a main halyard rather than the sleeve system utilized by the Laser and Melges. The halyard provides more flexibility in handling the boats in a small beach/marina locations.

World sailing also didn't mention desiring a boat that is more modern in design and photo/telegenic, but that is also a consideration. I think all of the boats except the Laser check that one.

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2 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

 

The Aero has probably a 10:1 lead in boat sales, and 2018 Aero Worlds had 200+ boats racing already.

So, while the Melges is less technologically advanced and more expensive, and owned by a company with extremely limited distribution around the world, you're confident it will be picked the winner over the other four.

Clearly the OZone layer being gone in AUS is frying more than your skin... 
 

I never said it was the right boat or that it would win.  Just that it has a better chance than you'd think.  Mackay the NZ builder are the people who got the FX up as the woman's olympic skiff against smaller more friendly options.  Like any tender process and thats what this is a history of success is often a more accurate gauge than the quality or suitability of the product offered

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Worth noting too, that the majority of classes selected for olympics in recent times had no existing boats at all except the trial horses.

This includes:

RS:X sail boards
49er skiff
Elliot 6m keel boat
Nacra 17
49erFX

 

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Don't worry.  If recent decisions are any guide, this will be far more about money and optics than it will be about the right boat.  Someone here was already superficial enough to mention which boat looks better. 

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Am I a cheap bastard or RS Boats are superexpensive?

Not that it matters in this thread so sorry for the off-topic... 

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cheap bastard !!!

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Cant help but think that a trick is being missed to come up with a family of designs, possibly using a common hull, that covers lightweights, medium weights and heavyweights to replace both Laser fleets and the Finn; this could be done presented in a way that the media and joe public could understand ...

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Hey remember what happened when the Etchells and the Soling went head to head for the old three man keelboat trial. Who won that one? are where are those two classes today?

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

Etchells thrived after not making the olympics

There are about two to three Etchells in Europe I think. As opposed to about 100 Trias', 2500 Solings and 6x1023 Dragons and Stars... 

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Just so we are clear here, people are complaining about a process that would update a sailing craft first sailed in 1969 to something more modern.

I assume the complainers all still drive cars designed in 1969, and only watch car racing of vehicles from the same era? Exciting lives you lead.

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1 hour ago, 10thTonner said:

There are about two to three Etchells in Europe I think. As opposed to about 100 Trias', 2500 Solings and 6x1023 Dragons and Stars... 

Having raced a 60+ boat Etchells World championships in Cowes UK I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. 

The 2017 Soling Worlds were in the Netherlands last year, 35 boats showed up.

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Eric Faust (ILCA) did not distinguish himself with that 'response', as has been noted earlier in this thread.

Perhaps Saving the Sport of Sailing in the Olympics should  be replaced by saving LP and Rastegar's a..

 

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Ah the Olympic Games. Where every four years a handful of the worlds best dinghy sailors gather together  to beat a fleet comprising Eddie the Eagle, Eric the eel and the Jamaican bobslead team. 

Sailing should be dropped from the games so the national Sailing peak bodies can concentrate of doing something that actually grows the sport. WOFTAM. 

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The laser is an outdated design but that doesn't mean a whole lot; they've got the numbers.

What matters is the fucked-up state of manufacturing/ licensing/royalties for Lasers. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

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Laser as a company (its owners) and manufactures are greatly responsible for this. Look into all the bickering among the builders, lack of inventory and stupid high prices they have been charging. Read about the inner fighting between Laser USA, Laser AUS, Laser UK and other suppliers and licensing payee's. It's a total cluster F@#k and no one wants to be involved with that. The writing was on wall and has been going on for years. The class and sailors should come first before the owners of the company. The owners of Laser are welcome to do what they want with there own company but the sailors will find a better solution if theres reason to. well, there's good reason to and now WS got involved.

Dont harp of World Sailing for this, I'm not a fan of WS but look into the all BS thats been going on with LASER and it's infrastructure. Laser sailors has been suffering a lot because of it.

As a sailing coach, it was sad to see. No, the Laser is not the greatest boat but it had a very solid platform and association for youth sailing to help develop, race and allowed youth and seniors to become good sailors, it had a massive audience world wide with an almost guaranteed success but money, greed and selfishness greatly got in the way.

Ask any Laser dealer or parent who has kids trying to compete nationally or internationally in a Laser about the problems working with Laser. You then won't be surprised to hear why WS did what they did,

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, knuckles said:

It's too bad they didn't select the OK Dinghy.  Beast mode.

+1

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1 hour ago, Somebody Else said:

The laser is an outdated design but that doesn't mean a whole lot; they've got the numbers.

What matters is the fucked-up state of manufacturing/ licensing/royalties for Lasers. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

+1

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Hi,

      Looking at this from the UK, it appears that the issue causing this noise is that some people in America have got lawyers involved in a commercial dispute and the result is that the US supply chain is stuffed. 

 I have a choice of dealers, access to spares, used or new boats at a range of prices and our local and national events are backed by dealers and Laser themselves. 

 Pricing of approved parts is questionable but maybe that's the name of the game with a SMOD... at least there doesn't seem to be much of the variations in kit that mean you have to select the best of a dozen sails to get a fast one (Not saying this doesn't happen but it isn't perceived as endemic). The digging into monopoly pricing is at least making a show of addressing that issue. I'm not close enough to have a view on whether it's being done properly. 

 Would a change to a d-zero, m14 or aero improve the overall picture? Maybe with the Aero, though it's a bit of a gamble and would be hugely disruptive. There's a whole pyramid of training leading into the pinnacle... do all those kids need to go out and buy replacement boats?  Are there anything like enough new asabd used boats available? What would be the net gain? 

 Skiff? A-cat? Moth? UFO? Really?  Think about that for a few minutes and ask yourself how it would impact the pathway to the top, the training structure and the opportunity for less affluent nations to even take part...

 The issues in the US are not the issues everywhere. 

Cheers,

              W.

 

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11 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Having raced a 60+ boat Etchells World championships in Cowes UK I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. 

 

Uk is not Europe anymore, Haven't you heard??

 

Just kidding.

 

 

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6 hours ago, spectator said:

Laser as a company (its owners) and manufactures are greatly responsible for this. Look into all the bickering among the builders, lack of inventory and stupid high prices they have been charging. Read about the inner fighting between Laser USA, Laser AUS, Laser UK and other suppliers and licensing payee's. It's a total cluster F@#k and no one wants to be involved with that. The writing was on wall and has been going on for years. The class and sailors should come first before the owners of the company. The owners of Laser are welcome to do what they want with there own company but the sailors will find a better solution if theres reason to. well, there's good reason to and now WS got involved.

Dont harp of World Sailing for this, I'm not a fan of WS but look into the all BS thats been going on with LASER and it's infrastructure. Laser sailors has been suffering a lot because of it.

As a sailing coach, it was sad to see. No, the Laser is not the greatest boat but it had a very solid platform and association for youth sailing to help develop, race and allowed youth and seniors to become good sailors, it had a massive audience world wide with an almost guaranteed success but money, greed and selfishness greatly got in the way.

Ask any Laser dealer or parent who has kids trying to compete nationally or internationally in a Laser about the problems working with Laser. You then won't be surprised to hear why WS did what they did,

 

 

 

Image result for not this shit again

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55 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Uk is not Europe anymore, Haven't you heard??

 

Just kidding.

 

 

They have always only been sort of Europe :-D
Outside of the UK I've never seen an Etchells in Europe, apparently there is a small fleet in the Netherlands but that's it.
Solings do seem to have some active local fleets, not too much but they are there.

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6 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Image result for not this shit again

Maybe explain? You must be happy about WS’s vote since you’ve already heard so much of this bullshit?

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18 hours ago, jackolantern said:

Having raced a 60+ boat Etchells World championships in Cowes UK I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. 

(See above) :P 

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13 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      Looking at this from the UK, it appears that the issue causing this noise is that some people in America have got lawyers involved in a commercial dispute and the result is that the US supply chain is stuffed. 

 

 

The nub of the dispute was actually about the European supply chain not the US supply chain. 

Here is the shortened version:

Global Sailing Limited owned Laser territory for Australia and NZ.  Laser Performance owned Laser Territory for Americas, Europe and Asia ex Japan and AUs/NZ.

Global Sailing Limited terminated a boat fee contract with Laser Performance Europe in 2012.  LPE happily complied and stopped paying the per boat fee to GSL.  GSL  (mistakenly) had thought that this meant that LPE could no longer supply Lasers in Europe. They were wrong! 

Hiding behind the cloak of Bruce Kirby, GSL tried to sue LP to restart the per boat fees.  A massive thread started on Sailing Anarchy with a few crazies jumping up and down crying "Shame !" because they thought the Class Association should enforce GSL's claims for a boat fee. 

The court ruled that Bruce Kirby had no standing in the matter and dismissed various frivolous claims against World Sailing and the Laser Class Association.

GSL emerged from behind the cloak, admitted it was their claim all along.. and the court proceeded with the real case which was between GSL and Laser Performance (LP).   They got a smart federal district  judge called Meyer. He dismissed all of GSL claims.  It took nearly 5 years to get there but its over.

Hopefully boat builders learn two things:

1. Dont try and bully class associations.

2. US judges will see through your bullshit.

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13 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Uk is not Europe anymore, Haven't you heard??

 

Just kidding.

 

 

And the headline for the newspaper read:

"Fog Obstructs Channel - Continent Isolated!"

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

The nub of the dispute was actually about the European supply chain not the US supply chain. 

Here is the shortened version:

Global Sailing Limited owned Laser territory for Australia and NZ.  Laser Performance owned Laser Territory for Americas, Europe and Asia ex Japan and AUs/NZ.

Global Sailing Limited terminated a boat fee contract with Laser Performance Europe in 2012.  LPE happily complied and stopped paying the per boat fee to GSL.  GSL  (mistakenly) had thought that this meant that LPE could no longer supply Lasers in Europe. They were wrong! 

Hiding behind the cloak of Bruce Kirby, GSL tried to sue LP to restart the per boat fees.  A massive thread started on Sailing Anarchy with a few crazies jumping up and down crying "Shame !" because they thought the Class Association should enforce GSL's claims for a boat fee. 

The court ruled that Bruce Kirby had no standing in the matter and dismissed various frivolous claims against World Sailing and the Laser Class Association.

GSL emerged from behind the cloak, admitted it was their claim all along.. and the court proceeded with the real case which was between GSL and Laser Performance (LP).   They got a smart federal district  judge called Meyer. He dismissed all a large number of GSL claims.  It took nearly 5 years to get here but its over.and its still not finally over.

Hopefully boat builders learn two things:

1. Dont try and bully class associations.

2. US judges will see through your most of your bullshit.eventually

Sorry my prior post was not 100% accurate.

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15 hours ago, IPLore said:

The nub of the dispute was actually about the European supply chain not the US supply chain. 

Here is the shortened version:

Global Sailing Limited owned Laser territory for Australia and NZ.  Laser Performance owned Laser Territory for Americas, Europe and Asia ex Japan and AUs/NZ.

Global Sailing Limited terminated a boat fee contract with Laser Performance Europe in 2012.  LPE happily complied and stopped paying the per boat fee to GSL.  GSL  (mistakenly) had thought that this meant that LPE could no longer supply Lasers in Europe. They were wrong! 

Hiding behind the cloak of Bruce Kirby, GSL tried to sue LP to restart the per boat fees.  A massive thread started on Sailing Anarchy with a few crazies jumping up and down crying "Shame !" because they thought the Class Association should enforce GSL's claims for a boat fee. 

The court ruled that Bruce Kirby had no standing in the matter and dismissed various frivolous claims against World Sailing and the Laser Class Association.

GSL emerged from behind the cloak, admitted it was their claim all along.. and the court proceeded with the real case which was between GSL and Laser Performance (LP).   They got a smart federal district  judge called Meyer. He dismissed all of GSL claims.  It took nearly 5 years to get there but its over.

Hopefully boat builders learn two things:

1. Dont try and bully class associations.

2. US judges will see through your bullshit.

So the US supply chain is not stuffed as a result of the legal dispute?

 Just commercial reasons, then?

 

Cheers,

               W.

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On 10/5/2018 at 12:40 AM, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

 

 Pricing of approved parts is questionable but maybe that's the name of the game with a SMOD... at least there doesn't seem to be much of the variations in kit that mean you have to select the best of a dozen sails to get a fast one (Not saying this doesn't happen but it isn't perceived as endemic). The digging into monopoly pricing is at least making a show of addressing that issue. I'm not close enough to have a view on whether it's being done properly. 

 

 

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On 10/5/2018 at 8:47 AM, chuso007 said:

Uk is not Europe anymore, Haven't you heard??

 

Just kidding.

 

 

We’ve got a couple more months! :P

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On 10/5/2018 at 9:17 AM, LB 15 said:

Sailing should be dropped from the games so the national Sailing peak bodies can concentrate of doing something that actually grows the sport. WOFTAM. 

what - and lose that enormous government gravy-train they're on?

 

 

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On 10/3/2018 at 3:37 PM, Ross said:

None of the boats suggested in the memo have even remotely the word wide spread that the Laser has, including in developing countries where it really matters. Shit, the Aero doesn't even have national class associations.( While it does have a reasonable presence here, and it's a healthy up and coming class, not arguing that.) Is the Melges 14 sailed outside of the US? 

If we can't even keep sailing in the paralympics, common sense tells me that the Laser isn't going where. But there is no common sense in WS or the Olympics.. Easier to light it all on fire and walk away

Hey Ross, the reason the International Paralympic Committee, IPC, dropped sailing is because it was the Same Countries, Same Sailors (ocasionally a new person), and all were heavily funded. I downloaded into a spread sheet results from 1996 to 2015 and was astonished at how little things had changed.

The IPC  wants to make sure emerging countries (3rd world) have a chance, as many of these countries have many many disabled people. Mostly because the 1st world countries wage war in 3rd world countries.

One other reason the IPC ditched disabled sailing from the Paralympics is many of the TOP participants were barely disabled. It seems the Euros, along with the USA and Aus, could not define disabled very well. It seems that the classification system is a major issue. In order to get more women involved, the standards were dropped instead of actually getting  real disabled women in to sailing?? The question that should be asked, but is not, is "When is disabled, disabled enough for disabled sailing?" 90%, 75%, 60% ??????

It was and is a total pile of shit. I say still is because douche bags like Dee Smith are still classified as Disabled. His claim to being disabled is because he cannot look behind because he has rods to stabilize a few vertebra. He has 2 working arms and 2 working legs, a neck that works. But his mind is gone, because he was a VOR watch captain at one time and has now sunk to the depths of hell so he can feel he is sailing at the top of something.

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15 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

So the US supply chain is not stuffed as a result of the legal dispute?

 Just commercial reasons, then?

 

Cheers,

               W.

Correct. There are no legal reasons for LP not to be supplying their dealers and customers in a timely manner. There is no injunction etc.

In the sunfish thread (another LP product) where Sunfish owners are complaining about poor supply of boats and parts, LP said something about supply chain problems from Asia. I cannot remember the details. It sounded like a management problem not a legal problem.

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Speaking of RS Aero.. Who is the current licensed builder of it Down Under?

10 years ago it was the company that a few years later was involved in Laser class / Kirby fustercluck.

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Australian-Laser-builder-expands-range/-50063

If builders are still the same people - Spencer family/Global Sailing Limited/Performance Sailcraft Australia, then, in my opinion, this isn't a plus for selecting RS over others, Laser including.

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At present RS Aero is built exclusively in Uk under subcontract, and shipped to other territories. No reason why production couldn’t be spread around other continents but it’s rtm ie more of an industrial moulding thing with associated overheads. Low ish Manhr  cost tho. 

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On 10/7/2018 at 5:55 AM, Daniel Holman said:

At present RS Aero is built exclusively in Uk under subcontract, and shipped to other territories. No reason why production couldn’t be spread around other continents but it’s rtm ie more of an industrial moulding thing with associated overheads. Low ish Manhr  cost tho. 

Aero is epoxy infused woven glass, carbon, PU foam core. Not rtm (rotomold)

https://www.rssailing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/RS-Aero-Brochure.pdf

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