bill4

New Olympic Dinghy Selection

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

What’s that saying?  Making a virtue out of necessity.

Why on earth didn’t they take the intended rigs to the evaluation event? It puts WS in a very awkward spot to select equipment that wasn’t part of the evaluation.

At any rate, if the 6 is a better size for women (and 8 for men?) then there will be clamour to buy it.  

The rules for the evaluation trials were that existing production equipment had to be used. RS Sailing honored this rules (even though on of the other bidders didn't.)

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One has to pause and consider from 10,000 feet what has actually happened here...to realize how badly the Laser class and their builders have played their cards.

1.  The only class in the world that is found in the dinghy park of almost every sailing club, used by almost every junior sailing program, every college and university, raced by more people every week on a recreational basis with allegedly 250,000 + boats still in existence has been deemed less "universal" than a similar dinghy with allegedly 3,000 boats built.

2.  The same class was found to be the best boat in terms of design for performance and athletic ability for Olympic sailing in a sail off between 4 contending tenders.

3. The class has produced the highest number of sailor athlete competitors from the greatest number of countries year after year in the Olympics. The competition is among the fiercest in the Olympic games producing medalists who are widely acknowledged as some of the best sailors of their generation...and importantly producing more medalists from more countries than any other class.

4. After a thorough review, the class was one of two boats that was still endorsed as suitable for the Olympics.

5. A class, that I bet there are good odds that almost every world class sailor athlete , and indeed most sailors at WS have sailed at least once in their lives.

6. With three builders in three global locations producing  > 4 times the number of boats than the next closest boat's perceived (not actual) capacity from a single location , the Laser has been deemed as less qualified in terms of supply ability. This despite the proven ability to supply hundreds of provided boats for major competition in almost any location in the world. 

With these cards.....the Laser finds itself on the verge of being deselected from the Olympic games?  

I am going to be bold and say that I could have done a better job advocating for the Laser and put up a better fight than that.

The missteps of both the infighting builders consortium and the Class Association almost beggar belief!

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6 minutes ago, IPLore said:

One has to pause and consider from 10,000 feet what has actually happened here...to realize how badly the Laser class and their builders have played their cards.

1.  The only class in the world that is found in the dinghy park of almost every sailing club, used by almost every junior sailing program, every college and university, raced by more people every week on a recreational basis with allegedly 250,000 + boats still in existence has been deemed less "universal" than a similar dinghy with allegedly 3,000 boats built.

2.  The same class was found to be the best boat in terms of design for performance and athletic ability for Olympic sailing in a sail off between 4 contending tenders.

3. The class has produced the highest number of sailor athlete competitors from the greatest number of countries year after year in the Olympics. The competition is among the fiercest in the Olympic games producing medalists who are widely acknowledged as some of the best sailors of their generation...and importantly producing more medalists from more countries than any other class.

4. After a thorough review, the class was one of two boats that was still endorsed as suitable for the Olympics.

5. A class, that I bet there are good odds that almost every world class sailor athlete , and indeed most sailors at WS have sailed at least once in their lives.

6. With three builders in three global locations producing  > 4 times the number of boats than the next closest boat's perceived (not actual) capacity from a single location , the Laser has been deemed as less qualified in terms of supply ability. This despite the proven ability to supply hundreds of provided boats for major competition in almost any location in the world. 

With these cards.....the Laser finds itself on the verge of being deselected from the Olympic games?  

I am going to be bold and say that I could have done a better job advocating for the Laser and put up a better fight than that.

The missteps of both the infighting builders consortium and the Class Association almost beggar belief!

 

The answer to all of these questions is one company:  LaserPerformance

Seriously, you are overthinking any other aspect of how the class got here.
Aero is rolling, and even if somehow WS doesn't chose the Aero for both events, the Laser class is broken at this point, and will not ever be the same.

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Secret ballot.

The "ILCA - Laser" has retained it's status as an Olympic class for both men's and women's single handed events.

Voting:

  • Men's single handed equipment: "ILCA - Laser": 36   RS Aero: 5  D-Zero: 0   Melges 14: 0
  • Women's single handed equipment: "ILCA - Laser": 37   RS Aero: 4  D-Zero: 0   Melges 14: 0

Subject to a final approval of the WS board. Also subject to Frand contracts being in place by August 1, 2019.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

What’s that saying?  Making a virtue out of necessity.

Why on earth didn’t they take the intended rigs to the evaluation event? It puts WS in a very awkward spot to select equipment that wasn’t part of the evaluation.

At any rate, if the 6 is a better size for women (and 8 for men?) then there will be clamour to buy it.  

 I think each manufacturer was required to bring only "production" equipment to the trials. The idea being to define the scope of the evaluation. Similarly, Laser brought the new Cx rigs but didn't get them out of the bags... IIUC from Julian's post at the time they wanted to have them there to cover themselves if the evaluators decided to look at alternative rigs for the other boats...

Cheers,

               W.

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4 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Not even close

Hat off to you and your colleagues Andy. You got the reasonably favorable outcome from the sea trials that enabled you to do your lobbying at the right level , which was always going to be council not the equipment committee - Congratulations!

Now you face the tough task of having a contract in place and all the disputes resolved by August.  That is a tight deadline....but best of luck in that endeavor.  There are sailors from Oman, Fiji and elsewhere that are depending on you.

 

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At the same time, condolences to the team at RS who must be feeling absolutely gutted at the moment.  Two good boats.....and possibly the nicer boat lost.

Ultimately the accessibility argument and universality argument was papered over during equipment committee but raised its head at Council. 

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I hope the process allows the Laser Class to contemplate a new rig.

I hope the process facilitates a resolution of the builder supply problem.  I believe that many builders who could be credible Laser builders did not step forward in the uncertainty but might be able to step forward now.

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5 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Hat off to you and your colleagues Andy. You got the reasonably favorable outcome from the sea trials that enabled you to do your lobbying at the right level , which was always going to be council not the equipment committee - Congratulations!

Now you face the tough task of having a contract in place and all the disputes resolved by August.  That is a tight deadline....but best of luck in that endeavor.  There are sailors from Oman, Fiji and elsewhere that are depending on you.

 

You're right, more hard work begins to be ready by Aug 1st. Again, the heavy lifting was done by Tracy and Eric. Would love to be in London right now buying those guys a beer or three.

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The angry mob has spoken, pitch forks raised proudly.

A win for LaserPerformance and the misery they have and will continue to create.
This feels so very hollow to me.

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5 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

The angry mob has spoken, pitch forks raised proudly.

A win for LaserPerformance and the misery they have and will continue to create.
This feels so very hollow to me.

I missed the part where ILCA has reappointed LPE as a builder

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Very interesting to me that the vote today so aggressively rejected the work of the equipment evaluation committee.

I mean, why have a committee at all at some point?

 

Anyway, our entire staff has been watching this all morning.  It will be up to ILCA/LP and the rest of the world to come together by August 1st.
I don't know how that will all play out, personally, but, it's been an emotional rollercoaster so far, and I imagine that will continue right up to the deadline once again.

I don't expect the RS guys to give up, they have gained a lot here.  A lot of respect and notoriety around the world and I think are finally getting to be seen for the proud dinghy building company they really are.

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7 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I missed the part where ILCA has reappointed LPE as a builder

What choice do they have?

LaserPerformance owns the trademark to the word Laser in NA and Europe.  And the ILCA Dinghy isn't being considered for the Olympics.

 

So, they will have to kiss and make up, and sailors around the world will continue to suffer for many more years with Farzad running the show.

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5 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

 

Anyway, our entire staff has been watching this all morning.  It will be up to ILCA/LP and the rest of the world to come together by August 1st.
I don't know how that will all play out, personally, but, it's been an emotional rollercoaster so far, and I imagine that will continue right up to the deadline once again.

I don't expect the RS guys to give up, they have gained a lot here.  A lot of respect and notoriety around the world and I think are finally getting to be seen for the proud dinghy building company they really are.

Agreed.

RS have lost this one . I'm sure it hurts. But when the dust settles, I hope that RS realize that they have gained and will continue to gain......growing their customer base the hard way....boat by boat....by providing a great product and great customer service.  There are no short cuts.

If its any consolation, the Laser became the Olympic boat by becoming the universal boat. It did not become the universal boat by becoming the Olympic boat. I thought the women's rep from Cyprus threw out an interesting comment that might give RS an indicated longer term path.  Win the grass roots first by becoming the boat of choice at clubs and schools.

Nevertheless I am sure it is still a massive disappointment.

I think that hopes were falsely raised by the equipment committee who never addressed the elephant in the room

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10 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

  And the ILCA Dinghy isn't being considered for the Olympics.

 

 

If you are serious, wow are you misinformed.  If you are a troll, try harder or somebody will shortly compare you to a lawnmower.

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^^^

lol, ok. Ad hominem attacks are super helpful on the internet in general, really proves your point.

 

The ILCA Dinghy is not being considered for the Olympics. The Laser is.
That's a thing called a fact.

ILCA can continue to try to walk away from LaserPerformance, but they won't be able to.
They will meet next week with all parties to try to hash it out. Either way, without LP and Farzad, they won't hit the August 1 deadline.

So, yeah, that's just reality Wess.

 

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Just now, BlatantEcho said:

^^^

lol, ok. Ad hominem attacks are super helpful on the internet in general, really proves your point.

 

The ILCA Dinghy is not being considered for the Olympics. The Laser is.
That's a thing called a fact.

ILCA can continue to try to walk away from LaserPerformance, but they won't be able to.
They will meet next week with all parties to try to hash it out. Either way, without LP and Farzad, they won't hit the August 1 deadline.

So, yeah, that's just reality Wess.

 

Strange when they announced the ballot results they referred to the "ILCA Dinghy or Laser"

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I missed the WS announcement that said they wouldn't consider the ILCA Dinghy. Anyone have the link?

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They were to indicate the "ILCA - Laser" on the ballot. It was in writing. Ambiguous.

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17 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Strange when they announced the ballot results they referred to the "ILCA Dinghy or Laser"

Oh - I was being facetious with the word "Strange". 

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So let me get this straight, and I'm late to the party a bit, but...

 

  • World Sailing appoints a selection panel.
  • After much public outcry the selection panel makes a recommendation.
  • World Sailing rejects their recommendation and make a (secret) decision themselves.
  • They then decide the best way to make another decision is to appoint a selection panel?

 

So much for due process.  You'd be an absolute fool to have any part of the RSX evaluation process.

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3 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

So let me get this straight, and I'm late to the party a bit, but...

 

  • World Sailing appoints a selection panel.
  • After much public outcry the selection panel makes a recommendation.
  • World Sailing rejects their recommendation and make a (secret) decision themselves.
  • They then decide the best way to make another decision is to appoint a selection panel?

 

So much for due process.  You'd be an absolute fool to have any part of the RSX evaluation process.

Pretty good but only if playing baseball. You are batting 500.

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5 hours ago, WestCoast said:

Very interesting to me that the vote today so aggressively rejected the work of the equipment evaluation committee.

I mean, why have a committee at all at some point?

 

Anyway, our entire staff has been watching this all morning.  It will be up to ILCA/LP and the rest of the world to come together by August 1st.
I don't know how that will all play out, personally, but, it's been an emotional rollercoaster so far, and I imagine that will continue right up to the deadline once again.

I don't expect the RS guys to give up, they have gained a lot here.  A lot of respect and notoriety around the world and I think are finally getting to be seen for the proud dinghy building company they really are.

I don't think anyone here was trashing RS as a company or boat design. I think they're fantastic. I just didn't think now is the time to switch to them for the Olympics. I stand by my opinion that a switch to RS right now would be very unfair to small nations that are fully invested in Olympic Laser sailing. It would reduce the competitive number of countries at the games and ultimately jeopardize sailing even being an Olympic event. Maybe in 10 years if the Aero builds a great used boat market and develops fleets in more parts of the world, sure. Just didn't seem like the right call right now. 

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for the Olympics.

Well hell.... if that is all you need to focus on. ...   Why not just update the build process.. fix the sails and rebrand this boat... Olympic Laser..    My bet... the world of olympic sailors purchases the updated and superior  laser  over the 4 years of the quad and applauds with gusto.   If Nacra 17 is a guide... you are talking 300 new boats in 6 years.  ....   More importantly the rec  sailors adjust to this definition of fair competition and purchase a new improved boat as well when it matters to them.  .   I bet it invigorates the game at the local level. 

The power of the "BRAND" can't be underestimated.   All will be accepted if people did a reality check and manage all aspects of the sport given the world as it exists today... not as it did 40 years ago..

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Slightly off topic, but did anyone else notice the 470 didn’t get a unanimous vote despite being in a one horse race?

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A 505 person I suspect.

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35 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Slightly off topic, but did anyone else notice the 470 didn’t get a unanimous vote despite being in a one horse race?

I thought the fireball would have been a good choice given the specs they put out. But, as evidenced by their non submission... they aren't interested

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2 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

I thought the fireball would have been a good choice given the specs they put out. But, as evidenced by their non submission... they aren't interested

How did this post from the seventies get in this thread ?? 

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52 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Slightly off topic, but did anyone else notice the 470 didn’t get a unanimous vote despite being in a one horse race?

Yep.

Equally off topic, the mixed two person keelboat offshore event is very very interesting.

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2 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Well hell.... if that is all you need to focus on. ...   Why not just update the build process.. fix the sails and rebrand this boat... Olympic Laser..    My bet... the world of olympic sailors purchases the updated and superior  laser  over the 4 years of the quad and applauds with gusto.   If Nacra 17 is a guide... you are talking 300 new boats in 6 years.  ....   More importantly the rec  sailors adjust to this definition of fair competition and purchase a new improved boat as well when it matters to them.  .   I bet it invigorates the game at the local level. 

The power of the "BRAND" can't be underestimated.   All will be accepted if people did a reality check and manage all aspects of the sport given the world as it exists today... not as it did 40 years ago..

40 years ago, the cats and trapeze boats were much more popular than they are today in many areas at least, and monohull racer/cruisers and singlehanded hiking dinghies formed a smaller proportion of the sport. So if we manage the sport as it exists today we'll throw out the cat and 49er and replace them with Beneteaus.

As for changing the Laser - why would you destroy the OD nature that is the class' selling point? 

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5 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

So let me get this straight, and I'm late to the party a bit, but...

 

  • World Sailing appoints a selection panel.
  • After much public outcry the selection panel makes a recommendation.
  • World Sailing rejects their recommendation and make a (secret) decision themselves.
  • They then decide the best way to make another decision is to appoint a selection panel?

 

So much for due process.  You'd be an absolute fool to have any part of the RSX evaluation process.

Looking from another side;

1- Top windsurfers have a big say in selecting the RSX;

2- Top windsurfers then have big complaints about the RSX;

3- A WS committee makes a decision that windsurfers criticise because the committee doesn't have any top windsurfers on it;

4- A WS committee makes a decision that windsurfers welcome despite the fact that the committee doesn't have any top windsurfers on it.

So the windsurfers don't seem to want due process either. They certainly aren't consistent - when they haven't been involved in selection they have complained, when they have been involved in selection they've complained. And no one ever seems to have explained what being a good sailor has to do with selecting the right gear. We KNOW that the skills required to sail well are very different from the ones required to run a class well; if they were the same skills then top class organisers would also be champion sailors. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Curious said:

As for changing the Laser - why would you destroy the OD nature that is the class' selling point?  

Really???    Any skeptical buyer would read this thread and laugh at "that  selling point" based on the many credible reports herein and over the years available on the internet. Strict One design CAN"T be an issue when a world wide debate is engaged over... can I purchase a class legal XXX in North America in a calender year.   so... OK...I buy this "practice replacement bit".... wink wink      I believe that Gouv pointed out the actual market for new boats is cashed up juniors and  well off masters getting a boat for nationals..  So... if you care about One design... you go get a new boat to compete (because they don't hold their value as a tier one race boat all that well)....   Otherwise, you are best served by selling the fairy tale of one design so that you don't get stuck ....    So...   OD nature  is now just marketing and a reason for people to resist any changes and avoid making decisions.   

Now the class has a legitimate issue to manage... the smoke and mirrors... of oohh.... one design.... must deal with,  a panel of OLYMPIC dinghy racers who evaluated all the classes and declared the RS the best boat... ... but politics... (legitimate  issues mind you)  resisted change.   Again. what is a consumer going to conclude?  choose marketing over value.

Personally, I think that a modern laser build tagged to an olympic cycle would energize the rank and file..not upset the local pecking order and give the consumer the knowledge that they purchased value.... not marketing.    " OD nature" is just a euphemism for manage the competition FAIRLY ..... Seems to me that a class can do that successfully with careful management.  IMO.... erecting an alter to the "divine construction manua"l makes no sense.  (Seems like Rastagear has the same opinion with a club laser on deck)

Somehow.... I bet World Sailing delivers the message to improve the value prop of the boat and the class will scramble to accept it.      (See Classic Tornado Class rejecting a spin on the ballot and then having ISAF select a Tornado with Spin as the Olympic boat..... ooopsy.... well OK>..  Tornado's now have Spins)

Personally.... I would lookout for  Rastagears Club Laser as the new Olympic boat.....   Why.... because its a better value then the old OD laser.     Rasta... owns the most important thing here.... the brand and has a substitute that world sailing can choose with minimal upset because it is marketed as a better value.     AND it will be marketed as One Design... ignore the details under the gel coat.

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Just now, Tcatman said:

Really???    Any skeptical buyer would read this thread and laugh at "that  selling point" based on the many credible reports herein and over the years available on the internet. Strict One design CAN"T be an issue when a world wide debate is engaged over... can I purchase a class legal XXX in North America in a calender year.   so... OK...I buy this "practice replacement bit".... wink wink      I believe that Gouv pointed out the actual market for new boats is cashed up juniors and  well off masters getting a boat for nationals..  So... if you care about One design... you go get a new boat to compete (because they don't hold their value as a tier one race boat all that well)....   Otherwise, you are best served by selling the fairy tale of one design so that you don't get stuck ....    So...   OD nature  is now just marketing and a reason for people to resist any changes and avoid making decisions.   

Now the class has a legitimate issue to manage... the smoke and mirrors... of oohh.... one design.... must deal with,  a panel of OLYMPIC dinghy racers who evaluated all the classes and declared the RS the best boat... ... but politics... (legitimate  issues mind you)  resisted change.   Again. what is a consumer going to conclude?  choose marketing over value.

Personally, I think that a modern laser build tagged to an olympic cycle would energize the rank and file..not upset the local pecking order and give the consumer the knowledge that they purchased value.... not marketing.    " OD nature" is just a euphemism for manage the competition FAIRLY ..... Seems to me that a class can do that successfully with careful management.  IMO.... erecting an alter to the "divine construction manua"l makes no sense.  (Seems like Rastagear has the same opinion with a club laser on deck)

Somehow.... I bet World Sailing delivers the message to improve the value prop of the boat and the class will scramble to accept it.      (See Classic Tornado Class rejecting a spin on the ballot and then having ISAF select a Tornado with Spin as the Olympic boat..... ooopsy.... well OK>..  Tornado's now have Spins)

Personally.... I would lookout for  Rastagears Club Laser as the new Olympic boat.....   Why.... because its a better value then the old OD laser.     Rasta... owns the most important thing here.... the brand and has a substitute that world sailing can choose with minimal upset because it is marketed as a better value.     AND it will be marketed as One Design... ignore the details under the gel coat.

So you're saying that I should ignore personal experience and direct information from Olympians about the class' strength as a one design? Why the hell would I do that?

I care about one design and I didn't get a new boat to compete this time. I have got a new boat before; the used one I have now appears to be just as fast.

Which were these "credible reports"? The ones that so often just reported rumours?

How will "the rank and file" be energised if they feel that they will be at a disadvantage because there are newer and faster Lasers coming out?

By the way, the panel of Olympic sailors chose the Laser as THE BETTER BOAT in terms of actual sailing performance. The Aero won because it did better in OTHER  areas. Oh, and talking of other areas, LP cannot sell Lasers in one of the world's strongest Olympic sailing regions so how can WS select his boat? And what about the trifling issue that he doesn't actually have a class to market?

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Curious said:

And what about the trifling issue that he doesn't actually have a class to market?

hmm.... I give you the Nacra 17 which was selected based on two one off prototypes with F18 masts and a HOST of issues... without a SINGLE OWNER on the planet..   So...no class to market...  no big deal!  IMO,   if the better built club laser is rebranded as the Olympic laser....   Done...   its one design..... its a laser!   (what are you going to do about it?)

As to size of the recreational fleet in the world.... that is irrelevant to this issue...The fleet of elite laser sailors world wide is what... 200 to 300 or so.... whatever the world sailing ranking is.     What is at stake is the number of mna's who have bought into sport at the cost efficient level of the laser. Moreover, At the games... the boats will be provided.... so... level playing field.   Tell me why they would not be interested in getting better value for their coin?  

If you wanted no change.... you would have better off without the olympic slot.... then the old guard could continue with the marketing of strict one design.  yada yada yada and nobody would care.

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The Nacra 17 was not selected because it had a large existing class. The Laser was. The two cannot be compared.

There is no simple split between a "recreational fleet" and an "elite fleet". That is why smaller countries try to create a fleet. As (for example) Singapore shows, countries can realise that you DO need a fleet and not just a couple of Olympic aspirants. The success of Australia's Laser men can be seen to rest largely on the existence of strong local fleets that develop talent. 

You haven't said what "better value" is and why LP would provide it. May one also say that someone who appears to be a member of a class that got dumped from the Games and who is from an area that has (for its population) very little success in recent Olympics may not be in a great position to know what works for the Games.


By the way, you drastically under-estimated the number of Laser sailors in the world ranking.

 

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13 minutes ago, Curious said:

By the way, you drastically under-estimated the number of Laser sailors in the world ranking.

5 members on a team... figure 60 mna's.   ... i get 300 .... 

Quote

it had a large existing class

stop conflating the issue... Laser  has a large number of MNA's that participate in Laser sailing at the Olympic level.   That is the decisive factor.

Quote

s (for example) Singapore shows, countries can realise that you DO need a fleet and not just a couple of Olympic aspirants. 

Nope... you need sailboat racers.... they get coached up in the class best suited to them if they have talent .   The top sailors find their competition at the world level... the nation state scene is meaningless   ( I have been looking for evidence that a national pipeline is founded on a strong amateur scene for all of my life and have failed to find any strong evidence)  In fact... the data is... that any level of junior racing can ID talent and when sucked into the countries elite training program ... that talent can fulfill their potential)   That is the point that wins for laser.... the elite training programs don't have the resources to change.... However.... plug in better value equipment with the same branding... win win  all around.

Laser has a problem.....World Sailing has lots of issues to balance... the last one they will manage is the warm and fuzzy of the rank and file of the laser class about OD and the construction manual.    So,  no use sticking head in the sand... mouthing platitudes about OD  when you come up for air.  (hint all the boats in the olympics are OD and solve the issue lots of different ways.....  I see calling rastas.... club laser an Olympic laser with world sailing controlling the specs as a possible outcome. YMMV

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Well, I'm not sure that the minor sailing nations that appear to place a lot of importance on building up a strong Laser fleet really care what someone from a defunct Olympic class in another part of the world thinks they should do. But how do you find talent unless you have a fleet for them to sail in?  How do you get talent to get into sailing if they have no fleet to sail in? 

How many World Youth Championship team kids and Olympic aspirants have you helped get into a new class or discipline? Would you have found it easier with no fleet for them to sail in?  Would you have found it easier if they had a bigger fleet?

While many of the elite don't do club racing, at my nearest big club, for example, before Rio there were two Olympic Squad members occasionally racing in club races, alongside a former Olympian. About that time two young sailors were mid fleet - now one of them is winning titles and one of the people they beat is finishing top 10 in World Cup events. You may well not have picked either of them up as top class talents a few years back. Would these emerging sailors have done so well if they were part of a two-tier system?  That's hard to see. 

My head isn't in the sand or mouthing platitudes - I'm out there racing Lasers and other ODs and playing my part in running a successful sport. The US, on the other hand, is dramatically under-performing at Olympic and AC level so perhaps the US needs to learn lessons.

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6 hours ago, Tcatman said:

hmm.... I give you the Nacra 17 which was selected based on two one off prototypes with F18 masts and a HOST of issues... without a SINGLE OWNER on the planet..   So...no class to market...  no big deal!  IMO,   if the better built club laser is rebranded as the Olympic laser....   Done...   its one design..... its a laser!   (what are you going to do about it?)

As to size of the recreational fleet in the world.... that is irrelevant to this issue...The fleet of elite laser sailors world wide is what... 200 to 300 or so.... whatever the world sailing ranking is.     What is at stake is the number of mna's who have bought into sport at the cost efficient level of the laser. Moreover, At the games... the boats will be provided.... so... level playing field.   Tell me why they would not be interested in getting better value for their coin?  

If you wanted no change.... you would have better off without the olympic slot.... then the old guard could continue with the marketing of strict one design.  yada yada yada and nobody would care.

N17 is an interesting role model for selection, it was clear a builder just had to make a cat that didnt previously exist and it would get chosen as no class associations wanted any existing cats to become olympic boats. ( what was wrong with the Tornado, oh, only for big guys so we need a mixed crew boat to include asians but wait crew weight is non asian, oh well nice idea)

A few countries tax dollars wasted on that class

 

I can understand WS logic for the laser but thats a bit different than their logic for the Nacra 17

Can WS make a good decision or make lots to please everyone?
Is the Olympics a show to get money every 4 years or  the pinnacle sporting event for sports the masses compete in?
No TV money in handicaps sailing so we f***ed that off

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Ahead of the debate, 21 Council members voted in favour of all votes on the Olympic Equipment being held in secret with 20 against. As a result, every vote cast was secret.

Good grief.

 

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9 hours ago, Tcatman said:

 

Now the class has a legitimate issue to manage... the smoke and mirrors... of oohh.... one design.... must deal with,  a panel of OLYMPIC dinghy racers who evaluated all the classes and declared the RS the best boat... ... but politics... (legitimate  issues mind you)  resisted change.   Again. what is a consumer going to conclude?  choose marketing over value.

 

Except that is not what happened is it?

We dont know for sure which boat the Olympic dinghy racers favored.  1) We know that they told the non-sailing evaluation panel led by Dina that they preferred the Laser from a design perspective for performance and athletic ability  2) We know from the few publicly declared votes that the MNAs of Cyprus and Australia after hearing directly from those same sailors, voted to retain the Laser.  We know that the council member elected to represent women athletes declared she was voting to retain the Laser .

The non-sailing evaluation panel never released the opinions of the sailors and the evaluation committee didnt ask for them.  

The Nacra 17 fiasco played a role in the Laser vote.  Dina had adamantly advocated for the Nacra 17.  Council members listening to her recommendation for the Aero may have felt a sense of deja vu and taken her recommendation and that of her committee with a pinch of salt and made some inquiries of their own.

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Sorry, but I got to jump in here for a number of reasons, one being Dina is a very good friend, quite a brilliant Naval Architect one of the 10% of WS that actually sail often and at a very high level.

I was also there, at the meeting.

The late great Ian Bruce often said, that unless its 7% better then don't do it, because the cost of change grossly outweighs the benefit of the change.

You can argue what is "better" and I for one, with Ian and I had countless Pina-colata's postulating the merits of that.

I am often (right now in fact) being persecuted for throwing the baby out with the bath water, but the big issue here was you had 100's, possibly 1,000s of people who have made their lives coaching lasers, who have got them selves to the upper ranks of MNA's, you had 100's of MNAs who had invested heavily in Laser programs and the other 3 contenders simply did not put up a convincing argument that the alternative was better let alone worth the risk.     All of the boats,  I understand had some great point's, and all of the builders (inc the Laser guys, in other classes, Takao is a mad scow moth sailor, Caldecoat is F18,A-class) are known for pushing the boundaries and we need all these people to keep pushing.    Martin Wadhams and RS, been in his shoes a few times, not a nice place to be right now, feel for you mate!

This is not Dina's fault that it did not get up, it is the other offerings that simply where not good enough or where not convincing enough.  The fact she is enthusiastic should be commended and its her job to stand behind the working party!

People this is a body swung single hander.    It will do Hull-Speed up wind, one may get there 0.25 sec faster, but HS is length derived, weight plays almost no role in that, sure shape dose but they are all about the same shape and about the same length so the conclusion is obvious.

Yep, down-hill is different, but having to knell in the middle of a boat, maybe the new way of sailing but, again the argument was not convincing.

I think there where 3 key points in the back ground chatter.

#1, how could a 25% increase in sail area result in just a 1% increase in crew weigh!    You need to compare apples with apples, not with oranges.

#2, The Aero had only one manufacturing facility, sure, they suggest they could open more, but they only had one facility in place.

& #3 The Laser/ILCA was the only boat that had been through the Olympic "mill".

The margin was a surprise, and the speed at which it came was also pretty definitive. 

Tracy, Takao and Chris are now is a pretty unique place, no doubt there will be some "noise" coming down the pike, (love to be a fly on the wall on Wednesday) but now is the time to look to the future.

Even in 49er land, we are being told to sit on our hands, it would be so easy to do just that, but we would be letting you all down.

                            Jb

     

 

 

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JB.......I believe I agree with your analysis.  There was not a compelling case made that the Laser needed replacing. 

Put another way, the equipment committee had a very good discussion about a better choice of paint color , without making a convincing case (at least to my ears), that the house needed repainting.

The MNAs foot the bill and they decided the existing house was in good shape.

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However, if the landlord will not provide the tenant with keys and access to the house before August 1st, then we will have no choice but to relocate and we can choose any paint color we like , and we even have the option to revise our choice of trim (aka sail area).

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2 hours ago, JulianB said:

I am often (right now in fact) being persecuted for throwing the baby out with the bath water, but the big issue here was you had 100's, possibly 1,000s of people who have made their lives coaching lasers, who have got them selves to the upper ranks of MNA's, you had 100's of MNAs who had invested heavily in Laser programs and the other 3 contenders simply did not put up a convincing argument that the alternative was better let alone worth the risk.     All of the boats,  I understand had some great point's, and all of the builders (inc the Laser guys, in other classes, Takao is a mad scow moth sailor, Caldecoat is F18,A-class) are known for pushing the boundaries and we need all these people to keep pushing.

-----------------

 

The margin was a surprise, and the speed at which it came was also pretty definitive. Tracy, Takao and Chris are now is a pretty unique place, no doubt there will be some "noise" coming down the pike, (love to be a fly on the wall on Wednesday) but now is the time to look to the future.

Who are you exactly? What qualifies you to make these judgement calls?

Normally, I am against asking such identity based questions - but the answer is in your case (JB) merits these questions being asked. Your perspectives (JB) are highly valued, not just as a designer but as someone involved heavily in the manufacturing and who has the sailing roots to boot. In my view, you have done the hard yards - and then some - and here you are - selflessly volunteering your time. A true addict and one of many, but an outstanding one for sure. (Sorry. Felt that needed to get that off my chest. ;)  And keep pushing!)

-------

With the Laser / ILCA dinghy, the MNAs have empowered the ILCA (Tracy/Chris/Takoa/Eric/Andy and others) to move forward, deadline in hand to implement their new vision. The challenge is less about the merits of the vision (it is already pretty well established) but to ensure that the depths of the ILCA can get on board with it - there may be tweaks though in my view will be minor - all while combating some vested interests which make the landscape way more political than desired.

The issue now is one of communication of that vision, which in my view needs to be more in the public domain.

Maria Clark has some very interesting ideas on governance that have the potential to change World Sailing for the better - and impact core drivers that frankly have lead to the very worst of management by committee.

-------

PS: Your comment on the 49er about not sitting on your hands - there are only a few places to go - is foiling an option?

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9 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Ahead of the debate, 21 Council members voted in favour of all votes on the Olympic Equipment being held in secret with 20 against. As a result, every vote cast was secret.

Good grief.

 

Seriously.  Wtf.

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3 hours ago, JulianB said:

#1, how could a 25% increase in sail area result in just a 1% increase in crew weigh!    

Being, with your father, one of the key players in developing responsive rigs over telegraph poles I submit you do know how. 

But yes, I agree, too much change for too little benefit.

And if ILCA can manage to develop a really good system of builder control that eliminates competition between builders on performance maybe the builder mess will result in a long term gain too.

As for some other comments
Its not a question of Council ignoring what eval team or events committee had to say, merely that they are a different group with different priorities. That's really how these things should work. Specialist groups give the specialist viewpoint, and council does the big picture.

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11 minutes ago, JimC said:

As for some other comments
Its not a question of Council ignoring what eval team or events committee had to say, merely that they are a different group with different priorities. That's really how these things should work. Specialist groups give the specialist viewpoint, and council does the big picture.

What's annoying is how these processes are framed in the media. Hence my mentioning Maria Clark with her work on governance. It will in my view lead to better communication in the long term.

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6 minutes ago, Gantt said:

What's annoying is how these processes are framed in the media. 

What do you mean, specifically?

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47 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

What do you mean, specifically?

Here's what Richard Gladwell wrote.

These are the only articles Richard has written.

There is no mention - not even one line - about the potentially far reaching changes to governance of World Sailing. It is like it never happened. (Maybe Richard Gladwell and Maria Clark should get together, they work just 10 minutes apart in the same city.)

There is no attempt made to give context between the functions of the two committees. Rather than report the priorities, only outcomes were reported. JimC in my view nailed it:

1 hour ago, JimC said:

Its not a question of Council ignoring what eval team or events committee had to say, merely that they are a different group with different priorities. That's really how these things should work. Specialist groups give the specialist viewpoint, and council does the big picture.

Specifically, the processes are framed on the basis of the outcomes, never mind the impassioned comments like from the Croatian MNA - which would have made an easy quote - and communication the basis on which for many the vote was made.

There is a lot more, but that will do for now.

(I'm sure Richard won't mind my using his writing above in the way I have.)

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16 minutes ago, Gantt said:

Here's what Richard Gladwell wrote.

These are the only articles Richard has written.

There is no mention - not even one line - about the potentially far reaching changes to governance of World Sailing. It is like it never happened. (Maybe Richard Gladwell and Maria Clark should get together, they work just 10 minutes apart in the same city.)

There is no attempt made to give context between the functions of the two committees. Rather than report the priorities, only outcomes were reported. JimC in my view nailed it:

Specifically, the processes are framed on the basis of the outcomes, never mind the impassioned comments like from the Croatian MNA - which would have made an easy quote - and communication the basis on which for many the vote was made.

There is a lot more, but that will do for now.

(I'm sure Richard won't mind my using his writing above in the way I have.)

1) It's super lazy to bitch about 'the media' when you really mean "I don't like Richard Gladwell"

2) I see you complaining about a lack of coverage of  'potentially far reaching changes to the governance of world sailing" in three articles about olympic selection.  Huh?

3) I can't undersatnd your sentence about Croation MNA and communication.  Try to use something besides compound passive sentences.

4) It really sounds like you need to start writing your own stories.  You could spend less time than you do reading and commenting in the forums and still provide well-researched stories where YOU get to choose whose quotes are included.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

1) It's super lazy to bitch about 'the media' when you really mean "I don't like Richard Gladwell"

2) I see you complaining about a lack of coverage of  'potentially far reaching changes to the governance of world sailing" in three articles about olympic selection.  Huh?

3) I can't undersatnd your sentence about Croation MNA and communication.  Try to use something besides compound passive sentences.

4) It really sounds like you need to start writing your own stories.  You could spend less time than you do reading and commenting in the forums and still provide well-researched stories where YOU get to choose whose quotes are included.

Um. I consider Richard to be a friend, and am familiar with his writing. Mr Clean, you are engaging in assumptive thinking. (Thanks by the way for posting who JB is. Really helpful. Wondering though who you assumed it to be helping.)

I put all three articles up, because it gives the entire context for his (and therefore Sail World's) reporting. Loved Richard's report about the keelboat selection by the way.

The Croatian MNA comments were impassioned, summed up why Laser sailing was so important to Croatia. They were made when the votes were being counted.

Richard re Maria Clarke was not about missing a quote. It was about not reporting about a major presentation. Maybe he's working on a big article. (Hmmmm... I'll ask Richard if he is, and why he has yet to mention the topic in Sail World.)

I started writing my own stories in the 1980s, and for the most part, fill most of my days with writing. It is great to write compound sentences, make grammatical mistakes and generally not give a toss about how I say something. This forum provides some light relief for me. As a consequence, my output my seem extreme, but in the context of my day, is not. But thank you for your unsolicited personal advice. May I suggest that if you want to make a personal message to me, that you sent it to me personally.

Mr Clean, you kind of missed my point so I shall make it again: 

There is no attempt made to give context between the functions of the two committees. Rather than report the priorities, only outcomes were reported. JimC in my view nailed it:

Its not a question of Council ignoring what eval team or events committee had to say, merely that they are a different group with different priorities. That's really how these things should work. Specialist groups give the specialist viewpoint, and council does the big picture.

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12 minutes ago, Gantt said:

(Thanks by the way for posting who JB is. Really helpful. Wondering though who you assumed it to be helping.)[/quote]

Your strange syntax really makes it hard to have a clear conversation Gantt.  "Wondering though who you assumed it to be helping" is not a sentence, nor is it a question, nor is it clear.  What was clear was that it was a direct response to your asking 'who are you to make these judgment calls'.  What are you asking with this sort-of question?

Quote

I put all three articles up, because it gives the entire context for his (and therefore Sail World's) reporting. Loved Richard's report about the keelboat selection by the way.

The Croatian MNA comments were impassioned, summed up why Laser sailing was so important to Croatia. They were made when the votes were being counted.

This was not about missing a quote. It was about missing a major presentation by Maria Clark. )[/quote]

So you thought one author should include something in one article, and that's why you were so frustrated with 'the media's framing'?  

Quote

I started writing my own stories in the 1980s, and for the most part, fill most of my days with writing. It is great to write compound sentences, make grammatical mistakes and generally not give a toss about how I say something.[/quote]

Are you saying you actually get paid to write?  In English??

Quote

Mr Clean, you kind of missed my point so I shall make it again: 

There is no attempt made to give context between the functions of the two committees. Rather than report the priorities, only outcomes were reported. JimC in my view nailed it:

 2 hours ago, JimC said:

Its not a question of Council ignoring what eval team or events committee had to say, merely that they are a different group with different priorities. That's really how these things should work. Specialist groups give the specialist viewpoint, and council does the big picture.

Again, you are not being clear. You say "There is no attempt made to give context..." but what is the subject of that sentence?  Did you mean that Gladwell should have given context to the two committees?  

You then say "Rather than report the priorities, only outcomes were reported."  Again, no subject in this compound sentence.   Who would you like to report on the differences between an Evaluation Group, the Events Committee, and World Council?  Should that description be in every article written on sailing and the olympics, or just some of them?

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18 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Your strange syntax really makes it hard to have a clear conversation Gantt.  "Wondering though who you assumed it to be helping" is not a sentence, nor is it a question, nor is it clear.  What was clear was that it was a direct response to your asking 'who are you to make these judgment calls'.  What are you asking with this sort-of question?

It was a statement. You are projecting meaning onto my statement Mr Clean. You clearly don't know me very well. I am less concerned with who people are rather than what people say. My comment on JB was a rare departure. For you, I shall turn the statement into a question. Who were you trying to help by posting who JB (and his dad) are?

So you thought one author should include something in one article, and that's why you were so frustrated with 'the media's framing'?  

No. It seems to me to be a common theme. I picked Sail World because I was reading it at the time.

Are you saying you actually get paid to write?  In English??

Yes. Fuck you very much for your judgments.

Again, you are not being clear. You say "There is no attempt made to give context..." but what is the subject of that sentence?  Did you mean that Gladwell should have given context to the two committees?  

The context in my view that the reports of the media (at least those which I have viewed) lack the very context that JimC communicated. I cited Richard as an example to explain what I meant.

You then say "Rather than report the priorities, only outcomes were reported."  Again, no subject in this compound sentence.   Who would you like to report on the differences between an Evaluation Group, the Events Committee, and World Council? 

No. I'd like to see more weight placed on what is more important. (Not what I judge to be important, what World Sailing judges to be important). Two examples, one was why the MNAs voted the way they did. The other is to report on Maria Clark's work on governance.

Should that description be in every article written on sailing and the olympics, or just some of them?

Now you are just being silly. A manifestation of your judgments on me I expect. How many cups of coffee do you have/need each morning?

 

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Who were you trying to help by posting who JB (and his dad) are?

I feel like there might be something wrong with you, and I'm starting to feel guilty for messing with a person without all their faculties.  You are asking me 'who I was trying to help' when I was answering your question ten minutes after you asked it. Here, let me refresh your recollection.  In other words, if you still don't get it, i was trying to help you, the...gentle soul...who asked the question.

No. It seems to me to be a common theme. I picked Sail World because I was reading it at the time.

One of my pet peeves, given our current president and political enviornment, is lazy fucking assholes who condemn 'the media' for vague and uncited reasons when what they really mean when they rant about the media is  "I read something that pissed me off. Whaaaaaaaa!"  That's why I asked you to cite - to understand whether you actually had done a survey of the stories out there and were commenting intelligently, or not. 

Yes. Fuck you very much for your judgments.

Holy shit, I got some life out of you!  Awesome.    Still, your almost Onion-esque overuse of passive voice is just incredible.  You are either 94 years old and jumped off the education bandwagon back when Radium was still lighting up wristwatches or you are an engineer doing technical writing.  Either way, it makes your writing really imprecise and weak.

The context in my view that the reports of the media (at least those which I have viewed) lack the very context 

Couldn't get past the opening of the above comment.

No. I'd like to see more weight placed on what is more important. (Not what I judge to be important, what World Sailing judges to be important). Two examples, one was why the MNAs voted the way they did. The other is to report on Maria Clark's work on governance.

You're doing it again, just like when you say 'the press' did something you didn't like.  "World Sailing" doesn't judge anything's importance;  The people on the World Sailing Council voted for something and there are many people who've explained why, but it's hard to know exactly why since it was a fucking secret ballot.   That was all reported.

I still don't know who Maria Clark is, but I didn't open an article about Maria Clark, I opened an article about what boat would be in the olympics. 

How many cups of coffee do you have/need each morning?  

I suppose this isn't any more of a non-sequitur than the rest of your rambling, so I'll answer: I make the same coffee every morning: 6 shots of tasty espresso-rested sumatran beans pulled from a Gaggia Academia, a squirt of stevia, a drop of vanilla extract, and 6 oz. of steamed milk all in a big ass stainless travel mug.  That gets me through to around 3 pm when i have my first meal of the day.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Who were you trying to help by posting who JB (and his dad) are?

I feel like there might be something wrong with you, and I'm starting to feel guilty for messing with a person without all their faculties.  You are asking me 'who I was trying to help' when I was answering your question ten minutes after you asked it. Here, let me refresh your recollection.  In other words, if you still don't get it, i was trying to help you, the...gentle soul...who asked the question.

No. It seems to me to be a common theme. I picked Sail World because I was reading it at the time.

One of my pet peeves, given our current president and political enviornment, is lazy fucking assholes who condemn 'the media' for vague and uncited reasons when what they really mean when they rant about the media is  "I read something that pissed me off. Whaaaaaaaa!"  That's why I asked you to cite - to understand whether you actually had done a survey of the stories out there and were commenting intelligently, or not. 

Yes. Fuck you very much for your judgments.

Holy shit, I got some life out of you!  Awesome.    Still, your almost Onion-esque overuse of passive voice is just incredible.  You are either 94 years old and jumped off the education bandwagon back when Radium was still lighting up wristwatches or you are an engineer doing technical writing.  Either way, it makes your writing really imprecise and weak.

The context in my view that the reports of the media (at least those which I have viewed) lack the very context 

Couldn't get past the opening of the above comment.

No. I'd like to see more weight placed on what is more important. (Not what I judge to be important, what World Sailing judges to be important). Two examples, one was why the MNAs voted the way they did. The other is to report on Maria Clark's work on governance.

You're doing it again, just like when you say 'the press' did something you didn't like.  "World Sailing" doesn't judge anything's importance;  The people on the World Sailing Council voted for something and there are many people who've explained why, but it's hard to know exactly why since it was a fucking secret ballot.   That was all reported.

I still don't know who Maria Clark is, but I didn't open an article about Maria Clark, I opened an article about what boat would be in the olympics. 

How many cups of coffee do you have/need each morning?  

I suppose this isn't any more of a non-sequitur than the rest of your rambling, so I'll answer: I make the same coffee every morning: 6 shots of tasty espresso-rested sumatran beans pulled from a Gaggia Academia, a squirt of stevia, a drop of vanilla extract, and 6 oz. of steamed milk all in a big ass stainless travel mug.  That gets me through to around 3 pm when i have my first meal of the day.

 

 

:D.

Clean ,

Monday was suddenly a more entertaining day.

IPL.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, dogwatch said:

As a result, every vote cast was secret.

Good grief.

As we now live in an age where personal abuse, insults and allegations of corruption are routine for any volunteer involved in decision making, we can be pretty confident that more and more ballots will be secret to provide some protection...

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On 5/19/2019 at 4:41 PM, IPLore said:

Agreed.

RS have lost this one . I'm sure it hurts. But when the dust settles, I hope that RS realize that they have gained and will continue to gain......growing their customer base the hard way....boat by boat....by providing a great product and great customer service.  There are no short cuts.

If its any consolation, the Laser became the Olympic boat by becoming the universal boat. It did not become the universal boat by becoming the Olympic boat. I thought the women's rep from Cyprus threw out an interesting comment that might give RS an indicated longer term path.  Win the grass roots first by becoming the boat of choice at clubs and schools.

Nevertheless I am sure it is still a massive disappointment.

I think that hopes were falsely raised by the equipment committee who never addressed the elephant in the room

IPLore  - I am one of the CEO from RS Sailing (we have 2).

I do not really write on forums by your post pretty much sums it up.

We have lost this one and we always knew taking on the largest class in the World would not be easy. Change is tough. We completely understand how smaller MNA would struggle and that is why we spent so much time on a transitional plan.

You are right, it did hurt (only for a short while) but on Sunday evening on my way home all I felt was pride  - We had a go, did it with a smile and made some friends on the way - This is the RS way. It was a real team effort.

So we can walk away with our head held high and go back to growing the brand - as you said 'sailor by sailor,  club by club, boat by boat BUT I do not see it as the hard way - This is the fun. It is what we have done for 25 years and what we will continue to do...it is why we love what we do.

From RS Tera to RS Aero to RS21 we will continue to get more sailors on the water.

As a team we reflected today on the pass few weeks  and I can honestly we feel like winners.

The support we have had from around the world has been unbelievable....and for all those that have liked, comments etc...thank you

Jon - RS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Jon from RS said:

IPLore  - I am one of the CEO from RS Sailing (we have 2).

I do not really write on forums by your post pretty much sums it up.

We have lost this one and we always knew taking on the largest class in the World would not be easy. Change is tough. We completely understand how smaller MNA would struggle and that is why we spent so much time on a transitional plan.

You are right, it did hurt (only for a short while) but on Sunday evening on my way home all I felt was pride  - We had a go, did it with a smile and made some friends on the way - This is the RS way. It was a real team effort.

So we can walk away with our head held high and go back to growing the brand - as you said 'sailor by sailor,  club by club, boat by boat BUT I do not see it as the hard way - This is the fun. It is what we have done for 25 years and what we will continue to do...it is why we love what we do.

From RS Tera to RS Aero to RS21 we will continue to get more sailors on the water.

As a team we reflected today on the pass few weeks  and I can honestly we feel like winners.

The support we have had from around the world has been unbelievable....and for all those that have liked, comments etc...thank you

Jon - RS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two thumbs up!

Well done.

 

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4 minutes ago, Jon from RS said:

IPLore  - I am one of the CEO from RS Sailing (we have 2).

I do not really write on forums by your post pretty much sums it up.

We have lost this one and we always knew taking on the largest class in the World would not be easy. Change is tough. We completely understand how smaller MNA would struggle and that is why we spent so much time on a transitional plan.

You are right, it did hurt (only for a short while) but on Sunday evening on my way home all I felt was pride  - We had a go, did it with a smile and made some friends on the way - This is the RS way. It was a real team effort.

So we can walk away with our head held high and go back to growing the brand - as you said 'sailor by sailor,  club by club, boat by boat BUT I do not see it as the hard way - This is the fun. It is what we have done for 25 years and what we will continue to do...it is why we love what we do.

From RS Tera to RS Aero to RS21 we will continue to get more sailors on the water.

As a team we reflected today on the pass few weeks  and I can honestly we feel like winners.

The support we have had from around the world has been unbelievable....and for all those that have liked, comments etc...thank you

Jon - RS

 

+1  from the Viper Class.  Well done Jon.

RS has done great things for the sport in the first 25 years and will do even more in the next 25 years.

I am an elderly ex-Laser sailor and all this publicity has further piqued my interest to try the Aero. 

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9000 Pounds Jon RS for an Aero?

 

Work a little harder sunshine...........

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10 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

+1  from the Viper Class.  Well done Jon.

RS has done great things for the sport in the first 25 years and will do even more in the next 25 years.

I am an elderly ex-Laser sailor and all this publicity has further piqued my interest to try the Aero. 

@Mambo Kings - from your profile it looks like you live in southern New England. We have an RS Aero regatta series in New England with the first regatta of this summer coming up on June 1st at Massapoag YC in Sharon MA and then at the Wickford Regatta the following weekend. We have charter RS Aeros available at all the regattas and many experienced racing sailors interested in the Aero do charter an Aero to race in one of our regattas in order to try the boat before buying. 

You can find details of all the Aero events in North America at https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=events&rg=North America 

DM me if you have any questions.

 

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58 minutes ago, Pung boy said:

 

9000 Pounds Jon RS for an Aero?

 

Work a little harder sunshine...........

you guys in NZ are getting ripped off that's for sure, would be cheaper to import a new boat from Australia.  $3400NZD price difference across the ditch even taking into account 10% GST in the Australian price ($4700 NZD difference ex Aus GST).  Maybe your local distributor is being a bit too greedy?

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

@Mambo Kings - from your profile it looks like you live in southern New England. We have an RS Aero regatta series in New England with the first regatta of this summer coming up on June 1st at Massapoag YC in Sharon MA and then at the Wickford Regatta the following weekend. We have charter RS Aeros available at all the regattas and many experienced racing sailors interested in the Aero do charter an Aero to race in one of our regattas in order to try the boat before buying. 

You can find details of all the Aero events in North America at https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=events&rg=North America 

DM me if you have any questions.

 

Tiller....I am in Greenwich mostly.  June is fairly jammed but if you all are interested in coming to the HPDO, I could sail that....or we would certainly host a dinghy regatta at Noroton and you can have a beer with BK and BC and get all the scoop. Lets follow up by DM later this year. Probably dont want to go off topic too much.

I was actively sailing Lasers again this winter .......but they were the RC Laser = Very civilized.  No trade mark issues either.

 

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7 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Tiller....I am in Greenwich mostly.  June is fairly jammed but if you all are interested in coming to the HPDO, I could sail that....or we would certainly host a dinghy regatta at Noroton and you can have a beer with BK and BC and get all the scoop. Lets follow up by DM later this year. Probably dont want to go off topic too much.

I was actively sailing Lasers again this winter .......but they were the RC Laser = Very civilized.  No trade mark issues either.

 

I think RS Aeros were coming to the HPDO last year, but it got cancelled for some reason. We have a number of new Aero owners at the western end of Long Island so that might be a good option. There is also talk of at least one other regatta in Connecticut. By all means let's DM as plans become clearer.

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

I think RS Aeros were coming to the HPDO last year, but it got cancelled for some reason. We have a number of new Aero owners at the western end of Long Island so that might be a good option. There is also talk of at least one other regatta in Connecticut. By all means let's DM as plans become clearer.

At the same time, tempted by Laser Masters in marblehead. Its all good.

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20 minutes ago, JMP said:

you guys in NZ are getting ripped off that's for sure, would be cheaper to import a new boat from Australia.  $3400NZD price difference across the ditch even taking into account 10% GST in the Australian price ($4700 NZD difference ex Aus GST).  Maybe your local distributor is being a bit too greedy?

Yeah and your getting a free beach trolley and foil covers thrown in as well. I could buy one, store at the rallies house for twelve months then import as a second hand boat.

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2 hours ago, Jon from RS said:

IPLore  - I am one of the CEO from RS Sailing (we have 2).

I do not really write on forums by your post pretty much sums it up.

We have lost this one and we always knew taking on the largest class in the World would not be easy. Change is tough. We completely understand how smaller MNA would struggle and that is why we spent so much time on a transitional plan.

You are right, it did hurt (only for a short while) but on Sunday evening on my way home all I felt was pride  - We had a go, did it with a smile and made some friends on the way - This is the RS way. It was a real team effort.

So we can walk away with our head held high and go back to growing the brand - as you said 'sailor by sailor,  club by club, boat by boat BUT I do not see it as the hard way - This is the fun. It is what we have done for 25 years and what we will continue to do...it is why we love what we do.

From RS Tera to RS Aero to RS21 we will continue to get more sailors on the water.

As a team we reflected today on the pass few weeks  and I can honestly we feel like winners.

The support we have had from around the world has been unbelievable....and for all those that have liked, comments etc...thank you

Jon - RS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a Laser sailor I gotta say you have a great boat and company. Hope the fleet keeps building. You folks deserve success. 

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I imagine the Aero will have a good shot at getting nominated for the 2028 Olympics. Maybe the 'six' rig for the ladies (currently in development, I gather) and the 'nine' for the guys. 

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38 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

I imagine the Aero will have a good shot at getting nominated for the 2028 Olympics. Maybe the 'six' rig for the ladies (currently in development, I gather) and the 'nine' for the guys. 

I would like to think so.

But what changes will have to happen in the next 4 years to change the minds of all those pro-Laser reps on the World Sailing Council?

 

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11 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I would like to think so.

But what changes will have to happen in the next 4 years to change the minds of all those pro-Laser reps on the World Sailing Council?

 

The Aero will have to spread its wings worldwide in the next 5-7 years. And getting additional manufacturing facilities up and running might be necessary as well.

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2 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

I imagine the Aero will have a good shot at getting nominated for the 2028 Olympics. Maybe the 'six' rig for the ladies (currently in development, I gather) and the 'nine' for the guys. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS_Aero

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7 hours ago, Gantt said:

 

Richard re Maria Clarke was not about missing a quote. It was about not reporting about a major presentation. Maybe he's working on a big article. (Hmmmm... I'll ask Richard if he is, and why he has yet to mention the topic in Sail World.)

 

Greetings

I disagree with the proposed Governance Proposal to the extent that I don't believe I could write about it and don't intend to do an interview on it as it would just descend into a debate - and that is not easy (for me anyway) to convert into a story.

The proposed system is driven by a nominating committee. That and what flows from that, is my biggest objection. It is good to see that representation on an Olympic Council will be based on places achieved at an Olympic Regatta. I don't believe the Emerging Nations need a say at this level - provided they can achieve Olympic Qualification at a Regional Games held within their region from which the "Developed" nations are excluded for Olympic Qualification purposes.

Anyone who has worked as I have at all levels of administration in the sport except on an IYRU, ISAF, WS committee can see the direction this proposal will take the sport, but because the sailors are so intimidated by the administration they will not speak up.

The current system does have some flaws in the way people are expected to digest a lot of material in a short space of time. But with better linking and indexing along with greater transparency, it would be easier to comprehend and understand.

We saw the effects in the weekend of what can be achieved when a sailor of Dorian van Rijsselburghe's achievement and standing in the sport does speak out.

Maybe if others take Dorian's lead, then they will get some airplay and we can pick it up from there.

World Sailing's biggest issue is the proliferation of Conflict of Interest, and this isn't addressed in an effective way at present, or under the Proposed plan.

Good sailing!

RG

 

 

 

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Who were you trying to help by posting who JB (and his dad) are?

I feel like there might be something wrong with you, and I'm starting to feel guilty for messing with a person without all their faculties.  You are asking me 'who I was trying to help' when I was answering your question ten minutes after you asked it. Here, let me refresh your recollection.  In other words, if you still don't get it, i was trying to help you, the...gentle soul...who asked the question.
I became aware of the Bethwaites as a child. The yacht club I grew up sailing in had skiffs, and the Bethwaites were well known. Above is an example of assumptive thinking, and now you are assuming I'm a person without all of my faculties. Let's assume for a moment that I didn't have all my faculties. Are you attempting to emulate the great Mr Trump by mocking someone without their faculties? If yes, then good job. The question on who JB is was rhetorical, which I answered immediately after asking. This lead to my coffee remark (see below).

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No. It seems to me to be a common theme. I picked Sail World because I was reading it at the time.

One of my pet peeves, given our current president and political enviornment, is lazy fucking assholes who condemn 'the media' for vague and uncited reasons when what they really mean when they rant about the media is  "I read something that pissed me off. Whaaaaaaaa!"  That's why I asked you to cite - to understand whether you actually had done a survey of the stories out there and were commenting intelligently, or not. 

I got my first job in 'the media' in 1987, though had been freelancing since 1984. To some extent, it is a criticism from the inside. More assumptive thinking Mr Clean. 

I read widely, and from memory formed the opinion on reports from Yachts and Yachting, Sail-World plus some mainstream media reporting. There were others. And blogs. I listened to the entire broadcast live. No, I did not complete a survey. Mostly I was agreeing with JimC though that seems to be a distant memory.

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Yes. Fuck you very much for your judgments.

Holy shit, I got some life out of you!  Awesome.    Still, your almost Onion-esque overuse of passive voice is just incredible.  You are either 94 years old and jumped off the education bandwagon back when Radium was still lighting up wristwatches or you are an engineer doing technical writing.  Either way, it makes your writing really imprecise and weak.

More judgments Mr Clean. This topic isn't all about me!

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The context in my view that the reports of the media (at least those which I have viewed) lack the very context 

Couldn't get past the opening of the above comment.

It appears you are triggered when the phrase "the media" is used.

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No. I'd like to see more weight placed on what is more important. (Not what I judge to be important, what World Sailing judges to be important). Two examples, one was why the MNAs voted the way they did. The other is to report on Maria Clark's work on governance.

You're doing it again, just like when you say 'the press' did something you didn't like.  "World Sailing" doesn't judge anything's importance;  The people on the World Sailing Council voted for something and there are many people who've explained why, but it's hard to know exactly why since it was a fucking secret ballot.   That was all reported.

There was discussion before the vote took place that outlined why people voted in a certain way, then more comments while the vote was being counted. They were not widely reported - in fact I can't recall reading anyone quoting the several voters who spoke to the topic.

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I still don't know who Maria Clark is, but I didn't open an article about Maria Clark, I opened an article about what boat would be in the olympics. 

Nope, you don't know who Maria Clark is. For your information, Maria Clark is the Independent Chair of the Governance Commission. She delivered a major presentation yesterday on WS governance. Incidentally, Richard came back to me on why he didn't report it. (And posted some of his thoughts here - which I didn't expect).

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How many cups of coffee do you have/need each morning?  

I suppose this isn't any more of a non-sequitur than the rest of your rambling, so I'll answer: I make the same coffee every morning: 6 shots of tasty espresso-rested sumatran beans pulled from a Gaggia Academia, a squirt of stevia, a drop of vanilla extract, and 6 oz. of steamed milk all in a big ass stainless travel mug.  That gets me through to around 3 pm when i have my first meal of the day.

Indeed. Yes, I do get obtuse at times. Translation into Mr Clean speak: Wake the fuck up. You seem intelligent - is focusing on me really what you want to spend time doing?  Or making you best efforts to improve the sport of sailing.

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8 hours ago, JimC said:

As we now live in an age where personal abuse, insults and allegations of corruption are routine for any volunteer involved in decision making, we can be pretty confident that more and more ballots will be secret to provide some protection...

In a very small way, I've served on a government body where my votes and comments were minuted and on the public record. So I think I'm entitled to comment on that. If you aren't prepared to have your position on the record, that's fine but you should get out of the way for someone who is. Private votes are fine in the private sector, they have no place in a sports governing body.

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The good news is that they’re going to run out of colours soon to continue this spat.  :)

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