bill4

New Olympic Dinghy Selection

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Wasn't pointing to the Sunfish specifically (Guess that's just a big deal in the Americas), there are a lot of national/regional one designs especially in Europe and Oz (which I can't name for the life of me). My point was more that the bread and butter of the sport is one design dinghies. In my neck of the woods you can't swing a cat without hitting an Opti, a Laser, or a Lightning, I'm sure the same could be said for MC Scows further west or Sabots down in 'dago.

Per my previous analogy, there's as much overlap between rowing and kayaking as there is between sailing and windsurfing (note that they even have different names, as opposed to "catamaraning" or "foiling-dinghying"). You are seated in a narrow-hulled light displacement boat and use your muscles to propel a blade through the water slightly below the surface on a straight course over a specified distance for time. I hope you can see where this is going re: windsurfing v. sailing.

I don't have any problems with windsurfers or kiters, I think both are very cool and deserve to determine their own paths. On the argument of "It's a close cousin to sailing so we get kids into kiting/windsurfing and then they'll get into sailing", I think it's always going to be the other way around. You hear about sailors who kite or windsurf all the time, it is much more rare that someone who grew up doing the X-games-style windsurfing or kiting decides to buy a J/35. You aren't going to find the kid who is going to do bow on the next PHRF/IRC/ORR/HPR race on the beach with a kite, he's probably in an Opti.  

Okay, I understand the point about the Sunfish etc and completely agree with it.

On windsurfers - can I ask again how much windsurfer racing you've done? I've done a metric shitload, along with sailing other stuff like Lasers, J/24s and offshore boats to a reasonable level, and it's more than a "close cousin" of sailing - it IS sailing. You work the startline just as in boats, you work the shifts as in boats, you work the pressure as in boats, you work the rules as in boats - the whole thing. Depending on the wind, course and class it can be like skiffs, cats or Lasers in terms of tactics.

Over my last two windsurfer regattas alone, I've raced alongside people who have won nationals or won or placed in worlds in 18 Foot Skiffs, Tornado cats, Moths, J/24s, Laser Masters, offshore boats and others. Not one of us refers to windsurfing as being different from sailing. Two of the major forces in modern dinghy development, AMAC of Mach 2 Moth/Waszp fame and some of the top RS guys, are former windsurfers. I know people who have got into sailing through windsurfing and ended owning good 38-41 foot offshore boats; one represented his country. Other former windsurfers are winning nationally in kites, 49erFXs, Melgi, and Etchells. Nevin Sayre, all-American sailor and former pro windsurfer, is promoting the O'Pen Bic dinghy. Last time I was in Newport RI I ended up sharing a winch with another old windsurfing rival on our way to second behind Ken Read. I ran windsurfer courses for kids - they are now out there in 49ers, yachts and dinghies.

That's just a few examples of the way windsurfer racing and boat sailing interact. They are both sailing, and I think everyone I know who does both would agree with that. Sure, some forms of windsurfing are different from sailboat racing, but then cruising around on a yacht under a rolled jib with no main and a beer is also different from sailboat racing.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2018 at 10:14 PM, nieptun said:

15000$ - are you sure??? Please show link to the shop.

Even if you want, they don´t have any at the shop or at their site (the dealer). You have to pay in advance and wait around  06 months(prediction).  They only sold some remainded lasers from the olimpics in 2016 ( 10 boats) and that´s it. They are planing to bring the composite top mast since 2016 but nothing yet...... it´ll probably  cost around  1800USD(they don´t  know exactly how much it will cost).:( They don´t show the price anywhere http://www.oceanblue.com.br/?product_cat=casco-laser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Peter Barton said:

At Lymington last Saturday when a squall came through during our club RS Aero autumn training with 15 RS Aeros a couple were upside down with the hull suspended largely out of the water in the waves, supported there by (and rocking over) the rig tip standing on the sea bed. There was no issue to mast or hulls.

Would be nice to see an Aero fleet in Brasil ........I think it will depends only on WS decision.....:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, EdS said:

Even if you want, they don´t have any at the shop or at their site (the dealer). You have to pay in advance and wait around  06 months(prediction).  They only sold some remainded lasers from the olimpics in 2016 ( 10 boats) and that´s it. They are planing to bring the composite top mast since 2016 but nothing yet...... it´ll probably  cost around  1800USD(they don´t  know exactly how much it will cost).:( They don´t show the price anywhere http://www.oceanblue.com.br/?product_cat=casco-laser

That's unfortunately easy to explain. Importers in Latin America have to deal with very unstable currency values, and unpredictable import taxes and laws. Also, it's customary to add sales tax (GST/IVA) to the quoted price in Lat Am, but not in USA. So...

Say you import an OD dinghy that retails for USD6K in the USA.

  • That does not include sales tax so if they quoted final price, it'd be USD$6 420
  • Say the dealer margin in the USA was $1500, and they sell 2 per month. $3K monthly income. This also means that LP sells it for $4500.
  • Add transport and import agent costs - say $1500.
  • Importer in Br gets the boat for 4500 + 1500 = 6K. However...
    • They sell only 1 every two months. Even at lower local costs, you'll want a higher margin as it moves "slower".
    • They cannot assume that the local currency equivalent of $6000 is their base cost, because
      • the local currency may well devalue in a big jump, leaving the importer without enough USD to replace the stock, so they build up a generous "buffer"
      • import laws/duties may change, making the import more expensive or complicated
    • Local sales tax will be high -- 15-20%, and it gets included in the price you see.

Obviously, the buffer is profit if things don't change, but keep in mind that Lat Am currencies sometimes devalue 50% against USD. Importers are often rich in the gravy until they meet a devaluation higher than their buffer, at which point they go under.

Quoting in USD removes some of the risk, but local laws often forbid it -- so you might have to call and get a "price of the day", based on the exchange rate of the day. Fast-moving, core necessities stock also shrinks the risk. 

But slow-moving, discretionary purchase expensive items... it's normal to see 2x and higher cost bumps in Lat Am. An Armani shirt will easily cost 3x in Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo, compared to NYC.

I've seen all of this up close, though mostly with electronics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

But slow-moving, discretionary purchase expensive items... it's normal to see 2x and higher cost bumps in Lat Am. An Armani shirt will easily cost 3x in Buenos Aires or Sao Paulo, compared to NYC.

You re right. It happens all the time.

That s why the only fair choice of olimpic dinghies for latin América is a MCOD boat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, EdS said:

You re right. It happens all the time.

That s why the only fair choice of olimpic dinghies for latin América is a MCOD boat. 

Or a class controlled OD. Local manufacturing could presumably manage costs better. Still, very hard to pull off.

When I wore my notes above I couldn't help thinking -- there has to be a better way. But it's damn hard to rework the financials, shipping and customs process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tthe debate over whether windsurfing is yachting is long over, they have successfully shared courses, rules, regattas, and sailors for decades. Foiled windsurfing wouldn't be that different, just faster and more tech involved. Kiting is where it diverges, imho, and kite foiling as well, particularly when it's dependant on ram air kites for light air succcess. One test might be can the "vessel" safely launch and recover from a standard dinghy facility, in all wind directions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what is "sailing" in its purest form, what is the definition?   Once you get there, then, you end this debate.

I believe its the "exploitation of the different velocities of 2 mediums".

I can't get it any simpler except that gliding/soaring could easily have the same definition.    So if you complicate it one level, (to compartmentalise sailing away from soaring) then you end up at "exploitation of the different velocities of air and water".

So if you can get to this point, then what is and what is not "sailing" becomes obvious.

If you complicate it any further, all you are doing is attaching your tags to the debate, and you have lost the moral high ground!

End of conversation!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe to define whatever Sailing is you need to look at the dictionary definition of a sail (see attached) . Using this a Dinghy, a windsurfer even with foils meet the definition of sailing. A kiteboard does not

950C65A1-C20A-4385-9BB1-47AB7A688151.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do kiteboarders call what they do "sailing"? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Do kiteboarders call what they do "sailing"? 

They do if:

1. There is funding available through sailing bodies; and

2.There is an Olympics gig opening up for them!

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, JulianB said:

So what is "sailing" in its purest form, what is the definition?   Once you get there, then, you end this debate.

I believe its the "exploitation of the different velocities of 2 mediums".

I can't get it any simpler except that gliding/soaring could easily have the same definition.    So if you complicate it one level, (to compartmentalise sailing away from soaring) then you end up at "exploitation of the different velocities of air and water".

So if you can get to this point, then what is and what is not "sailing" becomes obvious.

If you complicate it any further, all you are doing is attaching your tags to the debate, and you have lost the moral high ground!

End of conversation!

How about: Supported by the water, moved by the air ... same conclusion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daniel Holman said:

Vehicle, propelled by wind, operating on the air/water interface.

Hmmm. Looks like the sum of all this is a noun which would appear to encompass all three objects we are discussing. But we need to make it a verb, so need to add to it. Thus, for the purpose of this (bizarre) conversation, one would say the activity is  "Being transported in/on a vehicle, propelled by wind, operating on the air/water interface."  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Daniel Holman said:

Vehicle, propelled by wind, operating on the air/water interface.

Olympic farting in the bathtub 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

Olympic farting in the bathtub 

That definitely ticks all the boxes :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 17mika said:

That definitely ticks all the boxes :D

Alas(s), what's the vehicle?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure why there is a moral debate, for me, it's pragmatic because that's the way bids will be evaluated by the IOC, not on moral or ethical grounds, unless there's a big moral cheque attached. Can a proposed class share the same facilities, courses, and personnel as the established yachting events? If not,  then is it yachting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I like to come back down to first principles when trying to define anything like this.

That can be the simplest or the fewest number fo word that defines a concept, because when you strip it right back, you come up with 1st principals, or the purest concept. 

At 9 words, think mine is pretty pure/short.

Also its the sport of Sailing, it's not a Sail, and it's not Yachting, it's Sailing!

I like Wikipedia, its peer-reviewed and tends to be current and relevant, I happen to also throw a few shekels there way monthly, but they are a tad wordy for my liking.

Sailing employs the wind—acting on sails, wingsails or kites—to propel a craft on the surface of the water (sailing ship, sailboat, windsurfer, or kitesurfer), on ice (iceboat) or on land (land yacht) over a chosen course, which is often part of a larger plan of navigation.

That definition "throws the cat among the pigeons".  The other one I like is my father's definition:-

Wing in the air, wing in the water and a bit of low drag flotation. (but its 15 words)

Even Ice (dare I say) yachting, falls nicely into dad's words, low drag flotation and the "wing in the water" even if its a mm is done by the skates.

Few years back I was in Helsinki, November and I got taken to a pond, had a pair of skies on and was given a kite which I held in my hands and torn across very thin snow on what appear to be very thin ice, lots of fun, but I was holding this kits airborne, effectively I was the mast, the bits of fibreglass where the yards and nothing at all was wrong with this, and in my eyes, that was part of the sport of sailing.

Also in Helsinki on a billboard on the way into the city where the words "Innovate or die"!

The hardest things for humans to do, accept change, that's why I like Wikipedia, because its peer-reviewed and it changes.     We all sail around with some form of Mylar or CYT dacron these days, both a plastic, even 100 years ago, a sail was canvas or Egyptian cotton, and "plastic" would never have been seen in a sail.

Time to move on.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:45 PM, bill4 said:

Alas(s), what's the vehicle?



The bathtub of course. few friends also made a regatta in a Bathtub in 2010, dressed like SuperMarioBros. Good old times :D

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 10:06 AM, JulianB said:

Time to move on.

The assumption here being "case closed". Not so fast...

Your ice boating argument is not strong:

- nobody I know with an iceboat calls it an ice yacht. Just like nobody calls a Laser a yacht  (other than in jest).

- no chance skates on an iceboat act anything like a foil. 

- not many ice boats afford much in the way of flotation, unless it's just because they may be constructed of wood that they could possibly float. Mine sank when I didn't pull it off the ice in time during a freakishly warm early spring. 

Also, I don't think being pulled by a kite on skis is sailing. What if you were just running on the snow with the kite pulling you?

No winners in this discussion, but that's OK. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I define sailing as: 'navigating or controlling a boat that is usually propelled by a sail'. A kite is not a sail because it is not attached to a mast. Windsurfing and iceboating do meet the criteria, kitesurfing does not. I don't agree with the idea that you holding the control lines effectively makes your body the mast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ice yachts are born on water and moved by the air. So is kite skiing. Both sailing. Ski assisted death jump parra falling? Not so much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/17/2018 at 7:06 PM, JulianB said:

So I like to come back down to first principles when trying to define anything like this.

That can be the simplest or the fewest number fo word that defines a concept, because when you strip it right back, you come up with 1st principals, or the purest concept. 

At 9 words, think mine is pretty pure/short.

Also its the sport of Sailing, it's not a Sail, and it's not Yachting, it's Sailing!

I like Wikipedia, its peer-reviewed and tends to be current and relevant, I happen to also throw a few shekels there way monthly, but they are a tad wordy for my liking.

Sailing employs the wind—acting on sails, wingsails or kites—to propel a craft on the surface of the water (sailing ship, sailboat, windsurfer, or kitesurfer), on ice (iceboat) or on land (land yacht) over a chosen course, which is often part of a larger plan of navigation.

That definition "throws the cat among the pigeons".  The other one I like is my father's definition:-

Wing in the air, wing in the water and a bit of low drag flotation. (but its 15 words)

Even Ice (dare I say) yachting, falls nicely into dad's words, low drag flotation and the "wing in the water" even if its a mm is done by the skates.

Few years back I was in Helsinki, November and I got taken to a pond, had a pair of skies on and was given a kite which I held in my hands and torn across very thin snow on what appear to be very thin ice, lots of fun, but I was holding this kits airborne, effectively I was the mast, the bits of fibreglass where the yards and nothing at all was wrong with this, and in my eyes, that was part of the sport of sailing.

Also in Helsinki on a billboard on the way into the city where the words "Innovate or die"!

The hardest things for humans to do, accept change, that's why I like Wikipedia, because its peer-reviewed and it changes.     We all sail around with some form of Mylar or CYT dacron these days, both a plastic, even 100 years ago, a sail was canvas or Egyptian cotton, and "plastic" would never have been seen in a sail.

Time to move on.

 

Back in the 90s and early 00's, we sailed a lot with these "kitewings" here in Finland. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hate to say it, but the Titanic sailed across the Atlantic.  Well, right up to the point when it didn’t. But not a sail in sight. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about for the purpose of this thread (New Olympic Dinghy Selection), we go with discussing boats/vessels/platforms with foils/sails that are engaged in the exploitation of the different velocities of air and water - and have a chance of being selected for the Olympics...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Hate to say it, but the Titanic sailed across the Atlantic.  Well, right up to the point when it didn’t. But not a sail in sight. 

There's no such thing as sailing. The word is now used to describe so many things that it is essentially meaningless.

It doesn't need water - example ice sailing and land sailing.

It doesn't need wind or sails - example Titanic sailing.

It doesn't need people - example autonomous robot sailboats.

It's not even confined to the surface of the planet - example solar sail propelled spacecraft.

It's meaning is now so watered down (no pun intended) that it can mean almost any object moving around, using some means of propulsion, anywhere.

If aircraft carriers and cruise liners and spaceships and robots can "sail" places how can sailing possibly be an Olympic sport?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Is the Musto Skiff proposal definitely dead?  

No proposal for some new boat in the Olympics or the return of some old boat in the Olympics is ever dead.

There's probably a campaign somewhere to bring back the Firefly as an Olympic Class.

 

yandy63350.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tillerman said:

There's no such thing as sailing. The word is now used to describe so many things that it is essentially meaningless.

It doesn't need water - example ice sailing and land sailing.

It doesn't need wind or sails - example Titanic sailing.

It doesn't need people - example autonomous robot sailboats.

It's not even confined to the surface of the planet - example solar sail propelled spacecraft.

It's meaning is now so watered down (no pun intended) that it can mean almost any object moving around, using some means of propulsion, anywhere.

If aircraft carriers and cruise liners and spaceships and robots can "sail" places how can sailing possibly be an Olympic sport?

Your point may sail over some people's heads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bill4 said:

Your point may sail over some people's heads.

i like the cut of you jib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Is the Musto Skiff proposal definitely dead?  

Well, the smaller sail is still under development according to their forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/16/2018 at 2:46 PM, JulianB said:

So what is "sailing" in its purest form, what is the definition?   Once you get there, then, you end this debate.

I believe its the "exploitation of the different velocities of 2 mediums".

I can't get it any simpler except that gliding/soaring could easily have the same definition.    So if you complicate it one level, (to compartmentalise sailing away from soaring) then you end up at "exploitation of the different velocities of air and water".

So if you can get to this point, then what is and what is not "sailing" becomes obvious.

If you complicate it any further, all you are doing is attaching your tags to the debate, and you have lost the moral high ground!

End of conversation!

Yes, that definition shows a broader and deeper understanding of sailing than anything you’ll find in a dictionary. Sailors should be writing the definition, not deferring to a dictionary. We’re the source.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but people in the navy are ‘sailors’. So they are entitled to define it too, and wouldn’t include anything about wind. It is a word with various meanings depending on the context. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dsolnick, glad you like it, my fathers wing the air, wing in the water and a bit of low drag flotation also works (except for Ice and Land sailing)

sosoomii, try and keep it in context, we are talking about a sport, and I was about to say, not a profession, but I am sure you get the drift.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know, but then who gets to decide if kiting boarding is sailing?  It’s a wing in the water and a wing in the air, it’s also an exploitation of different velocities of air and water - and yet some traditional sailors would not count it as sailing, and wouldn’t expect it to be governed by World Sailing. 

If I had to pick a definition, within the context of the sport, I would say it is “controlling a vehicle propelled by the wind”. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my POV, when you start to look at anything to do with the sport of sailing, its all focused around generating meaning energy from the velocity differences between the air and the water.

What you do with that energy, after you have generated it is up to the individual.   And that's a 2nd order effect.

Occasionally I sail on a classic, I would call it a lead mine but its pig iron, 22 tonne, I think, that one form of sailing

I also sail on a Farr 30 and also a Farr 40, plus a 49er plus a laser, all completely different types of sailing.   I have foiled, I have windsurfed, I have attempted kite-surfing (poorly)

Your definition certainly includes Kite-surfing, but again, you have gone past #1 and into #2 or #3.

What is control, what are you trying to control.

I know the answer is obvious but your at #2 or #3 down the chain

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/19/2018 at 8:55 PM, jonas a said:

Back in the 90s and early 00's, we sailed a lot with these "kitewings" here in Finland. 

Yes Jonas, that is exactly what I did, only I was on ski's, and there was snow on the ground,  I doubt anywhere near as good.  That guy (girl) looks like they know what they are doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/19/2018 at 6:03 PM, bill4 said:

How about for the purpose of this thread (New Olympic Dinghy Selection), we go with discussing boats/vessels/platforms with foils/sails that are engaged in the exploitation of the different velocities of air and water - and have a chance of being selected for the Olympics...

When will begin the sea trials to select the olimpic dinghy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Dates are part of the bid to host process. https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/212503/MNAs-invited-to-host-sea-trials-for-Paris-2024 

I’m not sure what is in it for the hosting MNA.

 

Thanks sosoomii.

Sounds like they are looking for a Southern European venue in February, March or April 2019.

Bids fron MNAs are due by December 14th. Not sure what is in it for the hosting MNA, but WS is promising promotion for the venue which should be some kind of incentive.
 

Quote

World Sailing will promote the selected venue via its communications before, during and after the sea-trials via news items and social media posts directly related to the sea-trials. No fewer than two news articles promoting the sea-trials will be published. Each post will include direct reference to the selected venue. The selected venue will have editorial rights to any professional photographs taken during the sea-trials.

 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

I applaud Richard Gladwell's attempts to undermine the fuckery that is WS. However, unless someone with a great deal of cash, pull, or both shows up (where are you Juan Carlos?!), the inertia and incompetence of most MNA's will prevent any decision from being upturned. Plus I think Andy Hunt just throws away my hate mail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amateur hour. So if it is a known fact three of the votes were recorded wrong, there just has to be a recount. And do they really need to use electronic voting for such a small group? These people have to stop embarrassing themselves - and impacting the sport along the way. It's not as if they are voting on where to go for dinner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

okay maybe i'm missing something but why NC in particular

9 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

Perhaps WS should have the next meeting in North Carolina and hand out ballots ahead of time.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well World Sailing must be about due for another name change, Asinine Waste of Money is as good as any.

AWoM has a nice ring to it! :lol:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, RobG said:

FFS, when you have just 40 people in a room with an open ballot, why are they using such a shitty electronic system at all?

You're asking the people who chose to spend $15M on moving from Southampton to a very trendy London neighborhood for no reason?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now