bill4

New Olympic Dinghy Selection

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After a fun downwind Pavlos Kontides (current Laser World Champion & Olympic Silver Medallist) turned to the rib with a big smile and laughed;

"Hey, do I look like an RS Sailor now?’".

"Yes!  You look super cool!"  I think he liked it. B)

Pavlos.png

The RS Aeros ready for action in ValenciaIMG_1331hi2.jpeg

Just add water IMG_1305.JPG

On the water - Day 3IMG_1358.JPG

The RS Events Shuttle arrives in Valencia, Spain IMG_1270.JPG

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The report quoted by Tink is,  exactly the opposite of what I've been told by numerous people who attended.

 

So, for our dear readers who are coming to this thread for facts, I think it's best to wait for the findings of the committee.

No one knows what they are going to do, but, I would be wary of people like the article above (or frankly myself!) from stating one boat one or the other did poorly.
The Committee has a lot to consider beyond the dinghy park where everyone had their product looking flash.  Time will tell, it's not as easy a decision process as some of the folks might make it sound from a blog post.

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4 hours ago, Peter Barton said:

Aha, thanks for clarifying!

We had 206 RS Aeros at Weymouth for our 2nd World Champs last summer. The wind increased throughout the week reaching gusts of 37kn by the last race. Not one spar was bent or broken.

As for hulls, here is a video of three RS Aero sailors driving their hulls hard through a nasty chop during a big wind against tide day in the western Solent. This was just one week before the World Champs for some severe conditions training (which ultimately paid dividends). We did not give any thought to the hulls being at issue and the Worlds being only a few days away. They were, and still are absolutely fine. Carbon and epoxy are not only light, they are strong & stiff too. They also have minimal water take up over time.

RS Aero Worlds Training 2018 - Wind & Waves

Please don’t insult us

a light looking sailor over a few hours isn’t going to damage anything. Continued use of a top weight range sailor and continued flexing of the structure is however likely to fatigue a boat structure. It is very easy replicated this in the lab

The aero only uses carbon in high stress areas

 

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If there were any serious problems with the Aero we'd know about it by now: there are thousands out there for goodness sake. Frankly I think RS got too badly bitten by the Brazilian RS200 fiasco, which must have cost them a fortune, to risk anything like that again.  

Every time there are trials there are also a flood of stories about how this boat or that boat is going to fall apart or can't be sailed or whatever else.  Building boats well may be expensive, but its nothing like as expensive as building them too cheaply.

 

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As I said above it is in the manufactures and owners to keep it hush hush. I am hearing that two boats at the trails are keeping boat repairs busy. I have at no point mentioned which two.

The Aero does however stand out at being extremely light and isn’t using particularly new technology, however RS have a lot of experience which they can build on. Kilograms per meter it is 30% lighter than the D-zero and half the kg/m of a Solution - a relatively modern foam sandwich boat. I am not saying anyone is building boats cheaply just very lightly compared with industry standards without any technology changing.

This is not just another boat launch it is a very high stakes game which impacts a lot of very serious athletes. I don’t like the Laser personally but the availability of a vast range of second hand boats makes it very assessable, that is what this is all about. If you can’t pick up good second hand boats of the selected class in the years ahead it will not be good for the sport. 

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19 hours ago, tillerman said:

I'm no expert on the D-Zero but I read in the D-Zero Facebook group that they are "3-cm deck extenders."  Not currently class legal apparently.

In the same thread there was also some discussion about the sails on the D-Zeros at the trials being different from current production D-Zero sails.

Those hiking extenders are common in one way or the other on Finns and Devoti is a main builder of Finns.

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1 hour ago, Tink said:

 I am hearing that two boats at the trails are keeping boat repairs busy. I have at no point mentioned which two.

 

Not trying to pick on you, but, you're continuing to disseminate information that is full of 'insider innuendo' and factual inaccuracies.
While this is SA and there are not a lot of rules... I don't think it helps the discussion.

Your statement would be more clear if you said 'two boats had structural failings during the Trials that required onsite repairs by their respective manufacturers.  The RS Aero was not one of them.'

Then you'd be being accurate and not implying that the Aero *was* one of them, by sneakily saying 'I didn't say who had the problems'

 

--
You might like the D-Zero the most, and a lot of people like the Laser the most.  
I think the M14 is actually pretty cool (I've sailed all of them but the DZero, and I've sailed the DOne previously)... and the Aero sells really well.
That's all fine and a healthy dialog. 

But *hinting* at things that are simply untrue, or *implying* things that are again, untrue... that's not a great approach here.
I personally don't think that helps the community here gather factual information so as to make their own decisions about the best boat for the Olympics.

We all argue about hating the politics of WS, and yet, we as a community perpetuate the rumors/gossip and untrue reports.
Let the committee do its work and make its recommendation to WS. It's their job to do what is best for sailors, not for the loudest manufacturer.

 

 

 

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Peter Barton,

    You are clearly close to the Aero... objectively, does the smaller rig offer a significantly wider weight range for smaller women?

 When I asked about this a while back the feedback was that the competitive sailors were not that much smaller than Radial sailors (60Kg cf. 70Kg)... do you think a 55Kg woman would be competitive?

Thanks,

               W.

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1 hour ago, Alan Crawford said:

Those hiking extenders are common in one way or the other on Finns and Devoti is a main builder of Finns.

Thanks. I didn't know that. I had never heard of them before. Certainly not an option on the three other single handers I have owned.

Dumb question - why are they necessary?

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33 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Thanks. I didn't know that. I had never heard of them before. Certainly not an option on the three other single handers I have owned.

Dumb question - why are they necessary?

Pad extender puts the fulcrum of your vertical center of gravity higher, increasing potential righting moment. Not *super* necessary, but popular, and if you can raise your thigh 2cm in a full hike, if you're 1.8m tall you end up increasing your lever arm even further

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19 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Not trying to pick on you, but, you're continuing to disseminate information that is full of 'insider innuendo' and factual inaccuracies.
While this is SA and there are not a lot of rules... I don't think it helps the discussion.

Your statement would be more clear if you said 'two boats had structural failings during the Trials that required onsite repairs by their respective manufacturers.  The RS Aero was not one of them.'

Then you'd be being accurate and not implying that the Aero *was* one of them, by sneakily saying 'I didn't say who had the problems'

 

--
You might like the D-Zero the most, and a lot of people like the Laser the most.  
I think the M14 is actually pretty cool (I've sailed all of them but the DZero, and I've sailed the DOne previously)... and the Aero sells really well.
That's all fine and a healthy dialog. 

But *hinting* at things that are simply untrue, or *implying* things that are again, untrue... that's not a great approach here.
I personally don't think that helps the community here gather factual information so as to make their own decisions about the best boat for the Olympics.

We all argue about hating the politics of WS, and yet, we as a community perpetuate the rumors/gossip and untrue reports.
Let the committee do its work and make its recommendation to WS. It's their job to do what is best for sailors, not for the loudest manufacturer.

 

 

 

I need to clarify my sentence ‘I am hearing that two boats at the trails are keeping boat repairs busy. I have at no point mentioned which two.’

I am nothing to do with the trials or a manufacture or class. The sentence is, in hindsight misleading, my comments are about two classes of the boats in general not specifically anything to do with the trials. Sorry if my poor sentence construction implied anything different. 

I was recently considering buying a boat of the same class as boats on trial. I am not going to elaborate anymore to protect the guy who was kind enough to provide information that helped decide which class I might want to move into, he had nothing to do with any manufacture at the trails but in a position to have a valid and unbiased opinion.

I will say I recently pressed the decks of (seating area) four Aeros and one deck had more movement that the other decks. I also at the weekend saw a D-Zero that had the gunwale area repaired for delamination, estimate it was a boat from 2015. 

The point I am making is that the robustness of all the boats at the trial has to be considered for the reasons I made before 

 

 

 

 
 

 

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3 minutes ago, Tink said:

I need to clarify my sentence ‘I am hearing that two boats at the trails are keeping boat repairs busy. I have at no point mentioned which two.’

I am nothing to do with the trials or a manufacture or class. The sentence is, in hindsight misleading, my comments are about two classes of the boats in general not specifically anything to do with the trials. Sorry if my poor sentence construction implied anything different. 

I was recently considering buying a boat of the same class as boats on trial. I am not going to elaborate anymore to protect the guy who was kind enough to provide information that helped decide which class I might want to move into, he had nothing to do with any manufacture at the trails but in a position to have a valid and unbiased opinion.

I will say I recently pressed the decks of (seating area) four Aeros and one deck had more movement that the other decks. I also at the weekend saw a D-Zero that had the gunwale area repaired for delamination, estimate it was a boat from 2015. 

The point I am making is that the robustness of all the boats at the trial has to be considered for the reasons I made before 

 

 

 

 
 

 

And I've personally witnessed five Laser mast step blowouts.

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I’m curious on how the Aero hull reacts to high temperatures and direct sunlight 

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15 minutes ago, LTFF said:

I’m curious on how the Aero hull reacts to high temperatures and direct sunlight 

It says “take me out sailing it’s a lovely day!”

all of these boats will have breather holes. All of the tesins will be fine at temperatures you might see on a white or near white surface in intense direct sunlight. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, LTFF said:

I’m curious on how the Aero hull reacts to high temperatures and direct sunlight 

I'm in Queensland Australia where we have fairly high UV, my Aero is stored outside with the polycotton top cover supplied with the boat.  I've had the boat just under 4 years now, no issues with the hull apart from a section of the bow where I strapped the boat down too hard on the trolley while trailering and it developed a crack where the blue polly v-block is.  My boat has probably covered 14,000km on average roads with stiffly sprung trailer travelling to various clubs/regattas over those 4 years.

When I repair the bow, I'll be modding the trolley so it supports the bow under the gunwale

I probably strap things down too tightly as my 202xxx series laser also developed hairline cracks in the deck near the gunwales where the straps go :D

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12 hours ago, Peter Barton said:

Aha, thanks for clarifying!

We had 206 RS Aeros at Weymouth for our 2nd World Champs last summer. The wind increased throughout the week reaching gusts of 37kn by the last race. Not one spar was bent or broken.

As for hulls, here is a video of three RS Aero sailors driving their hulls hard through a nasty chop during a big wind against tide day in the western Solent. This was just one week before the World Champs for some severe conditions training (which ultimately paid dividends). We did not give any thought to the hulls being at issue and the Worlds being only a few days away. They were, and still are absolutely fine. Carbon and epoxy are not only light, they are strong & stiff too. They also have minimal water take up over time.

RS Aero Worlds Training 2018 - Wind & Waves

Pater,

Thanks for the movie with strong guys on Aero 7 who have problems with almost everything, this is a great example that Aero 7 is not proper rig for women.

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On 3/18/2019 at 9:52 AM, Curious said:

Surely the same remarks that people are applying to the speed of these boats can be applied to the rig design.

I don't think that's a valid comparison. In my view, the equipment should at least represent something approaching modern. What other sport that mandates the equipment uses 40 year old materials and construction techniques? As a contrast, the women's modern pentathlon uses a laser pistol for the shooting discipline.

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2 hours ago, nieptun said:

Thanks for the movie with strong guys on Aero 7 who have problems with almost everything, this is a great example that Aero 7 is not proper rig for women.

On the contrary, the 7 rig is very popular with women RS Aero sailors. 

Setting aside the Olympics for a moment, many Aero sailors do own two rigs and will switch down a size when sailing in very strong winds. The three men in the video all sailed 9 rigs at the Worlds (and all finished in the top 10 of the 9 rig fleet). They chose to make a prudent choice of 7 rigs for training in 40 knots!

If you are interested to know more about this topic there is more information at https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=news&nid=10719

 

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Rob, the point is that some people are saying "none of these are really fast boats, so don't worry about comparative speed" - but we can also use the same approach to say "none of these are really new design concepts, so don't worry about comparative age". Just as if speed was important we wouldn't choose any of these boats, if being a leading-edge design was important we wouldn't choose any of these boats but would go for a Waszp or kitefoiler. If the age of the rig design is an important criteria we should perhaps put in a Moth or the modern wing-masted Finn. Given that this is intended to be a "universal" type, rig age can be seen to be largely irrelevant.

It's hard to assess how modern Olympic boats are compared to the gear used in other equipment-intensive sports. Pentathlon pistols have become more restricted over the years, Rowing shells are restricted. In the other Olympic sport I compete in (cycling) much of the recent Olympic gear was basically designed around a 1930s ruleset. One champion cyclist/author/historian who used the 1893 Hour Record bicycle said he didn't notice much difference compared to his modern national champion bike. In contrast, I know from personal experience that you can feel a huge difference between the first Olympic dinghy (even a modern version full of Harken kit) and something like a Laser. It's hard to find solid evidence that sailing is lagging when it comes to the development of Olympic kit.

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

As a contrast, the women's modern pentathlon uses a laser pistol for the shooting discipline.

see? lasers in the olympics. the clues were in front of us this whole time!! 

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37 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

see? lasers in the olympics. the clues were in front of us this whole time!! 

And aeros are used in archery. Sorry...

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

I don't think that's a valid comparison. In my view, the equipment should at least represent something approaching modern. What other sport that mandates the equipment uses 40 year old materials and construction techniques? As a contrast, the women's modern pentathlon uses a laser pistol for the shooting discipline.

The 470 has stuck to its 1963 roots pretty well.

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

see? lasers in the olympics. the clues were in front of us this whole time!! 

 

26 minutes ago, bill4 said:

And aeros are used in archery. Sorry...

And almost Zero D-cups

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9 hours ago, tillerman said:

On the contrary, the 7 rig is very popular with women RS Aero sailors. 

Setting aside the Olympics for a moment, many Aero sailors do own two rigs and will switch down a size when sailing in very strong winds. The three men in the video all sailed 9 rigs at the Worlds (and all finished in the top 10 of the 9 rig fleet). They chose to make a prudent choice of 7 rigs for training in 40 knots!

If you are interested to know more about this topic there is more information at https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=news&nid=10719

 

Reaching, reaching. Always reaching in all the videos. I want to see a comparison btwn top sailors going upwind and dead downwind in 25 knots. Can you use the tiller as agressively as they do in the laser going upwind? The Devoti looks like a stick going upwind in a chop. What about downwind? The straight bow of the contenters could lead to more stuffing of the bow?

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8 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

 

And almost Zero D-cups

Something about the Amazon cutting off a tit to be better archers...

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1 hour ago, sprayblond said:

Reaching, reaching. Always reaching in all the videos. I want to see a comparison btwn top sailors going upwind and dead downwind in 25 knots. Can you use the tiller as agressively as they do in the laser going upwind? The Devoti looks like a stick going upwind in a chop. What about downwind? The straight bow of the contenters could lead to more stuffing of the bow?

Closest to what you are after:

https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/d-zero-and-aero-testing-in-20-knots/

by Steve Cockerill and a mystery other participant!

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9 hours ago, Daniel Holman said:

Closest to what you are after:

https://www.roostersailing.com/blog/d-zero-and-aero-testing-in-20-knots/

by Steve Cockerill and a mystery other participant!

Solid, unbiased review by a true expert. Sounds like a couple great boats with some personal preferences in specific areas. But there is no clear winner, and I suspect the trial sailors came to a similar conclusion. I would surmise that all the boats passed the trials in terms of being suitable for and worthy of Olympic competition. And I really don't believe tales of delamination, softening, melting, exploding or other durability-related allegations are going to have much impact on the judging. 

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6 hours ago, bill4 said:

Solid, unbiased review by a true expert. Sounds like a couple great boats with some personal preferences in specific areas. But there is no clear winner, and I suspect the trial sailors came to a similar conclusion. I would surmise that all the boats passed the trials in terms of being suitable for and worthy of Olympic competition. And I really don't believe tales of delamination, softening, melting, exploding or other durability-related allegations are going to have much impact on the judging. 

The expert on Aero 7 doesn't look like woman :)
One more example that Aero and Dzero don't have proper rigs for women.

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what is the target "size" for an Olympic ladies single handed class again?  Each of the Aero Rig sizes gives you about a 30kg window for variance, with a 7 rig you can be competitive between 55-85kg  for instance, for the 5 rig the range is around 35-65kg.  From what has been seen in mixed fleet racing, the smaller framed folk in 5 rigs can be faster than larger in 7's and so on...  One example that comes to mind is Kate Sargent, who is very quick in a 5 rig compared to the guys in 7's etc

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18 minutes ago, nieptun said:

The expert on Aero 7 doesn't look like woman :)
One more example that Aero and Dzero don't have proper rigs for women.

Steve is not big and usually sails a Radial rather than full rig Laser. 

That was a full size DZero rig, it wasn’t intended for a typical women’s body weight.

The Aero7 is very similar to the Radial in terms of body weight (which I would guess was the intent).  It is perfectly well sailable by women and a good rig for normal club/regatta racing, but I expect that at an elite level the optimum weight will end up higher than the average international female athlete.   That doesn’t bother me as much as it seems to bother some others (all elite sports tend to an ideal body physique).

 

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Athleticism, height and weight factors are part of the process:

2. Demand high level of athletic ability as well as excellent sailing skills.

a) AA = Athletic ability variable. Equipment will be scored based on its demand on the athletic ability of the sailor, with the most demanding equipment being scored highest. 

b) HE = Height variable. This variable will account for the impact of height in the performance of the equipment, with small impact being scored highest.

c) WE = Weight variable. This variable will account for the impact of weight in the performance of the equipment, with small impact being scored highest

 

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6 hours ago, nieptun said:

The expert on Aero 7 doesn't look like woman :)
One more example that Aero and Dzero don't have proper rigs for women.

There is absolutely no truth in the statement that the Aero doesn't have proper rigs for women. Having competed in the RS Aero regatta circuits in New England and Florida over the last  few years in all sorts of wind conditions, I can confirm that many women are very happy sailing Aero 7s and they often perform well in competition against men who are sailing 7 and 9 rigs.

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On 10/29/2018 at 6:51 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

Every time this has come up (after at least the last three quads) the question always becomes "why are there two men's singlehanded boats". The corollary is either "Why aren't there two women's singlehanded boats" or "That's dumb, get rid of one".

The fact is that the global population is getting taller, stronger, and heavier every year. The Finn Class has a lot of data which shows that men are growing out of the Laser at a younger age, and end up either doing only crewed keelboat sailing or leaving the sport altogether. After WS axed the Star in 2012, the Finn is the only game in town if you weigh more than about 185lb. If that means we have to team up with the girls in the Europe, 4.7, or Aero 5, that is acceptable.

One of the MNA representatives pointed out the weight data  and a WS stooge said something to the effect of "Go play basketball then, we don't care about you."

If I had it my way?

1. Men's Heavy Singlehander (Finn)

2. Men's Light Singlehander (Laser/Aero 7/D-Zero/Whatever)

3. Women's Heavy Singlehander (Radial)

4. Women's Light Singlehander (Europe/4.7/Aero 5/Whatever)

5. Mixed 49er FX

6. Mixed 470

7. Mixed Nacra 17F

8. Men's Foiling Kite

9. Women's Foiling Kite

Look I just saved WS whatever the cost of the infrastructure and scoring for the 10th event would be, and nobody has to chop off an arm to make weight. Go me.

 

10.  Contemporary planing keel boat. Optimum crew weight 500 lbs. Must include one woman.   

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On 3/21/2019 at 2:38 PM, WestCoast said:

Let the committee do its work and make its recommendation to WS. It's their job to do what is best for sailors, not for the loudest manufacturer.

 

When will WS  decide??

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13 minutes ago, EdS said:

When will WS  decide??

The panel doing the evaluation are supposed to present their recommendation to the Equipment Committee in May.

After that the Equipment Committee will make a different recommendation to the World Council who will then make a totally different decision that nobody saw coming.

Don't hold your breath.

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Some of you guys are terrible at math. The full size Laser rig is 7.06M and the radial is 5.8M.

When comparing the Areo 7 to the Laser Radial, you not only have less area, but an extra 60 lbs of hull weight in the Radial.

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24 minutes ago, Eddie_E said:

Some of you guys are terrible at math. The full size Laser rig is 7.06M and the radial is 5.8M.

When comparing the Areo 7 to the Laser Radial, you not only have less area, but an extra 60 lbs of hull weight in the Radial.

I don't think it´s only about math. It´s aerodinamics. Perhaps the sails shape are more efficient. Easer to use. Imagine a full rig Laser with a 9 M sail.  Or an Aero 5 faster than a Radial or a 7 faster than an Standard.

2018 RYA Portsmouth Yardsticks

RS Aero 9 - 1019
D-Zero - 1029
RS Aero 7 - 1068
Laser - 1098
RS Aero 5 - 1129
Laser Radial - 1142

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1 hour ago, Eddie_E said:

Some of you guys are terrible at math. The full size Laser rig is 7.06M and the radial is 5.8M.

When comparing the Areo 7 to the Laser Radial, you not only have less area, but an extra 60 lbs of hull weight in the Radial.

And a stiffer rig! You should tell RS that they’ve got their maths wrong and their Aero 7 is more of a handful than a standard Laser. 

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Ha.

It’s all a bit semantic - Europe is 7m2 and has a stiffer mast than radial and likes Less sailor weight than radial at 5.7m2. Think the radial area if measured consistently with others is bigger than 5.7 as is the standard at 7.1. 

I would be very suprised if aero 7 was more of a “handful” than a radial let alone standard laser.

Maybe this sort of thing will come back in the outcomes from pseudo scientific comparisons and sailor feedback from trials. Would be great if that gets published in the fullness of time. 

Dan

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1 hour ago, EdS said:

I don't think it´s only about math. It´s aerodinamics. Perhaps the sails shape are more efficient. Easer to use. Imagine a full rig Laser with a 9 M sail.  Or an Aero 5 faster than a Radial or a 7 faster than an Standard.

2018 RYA Portsmouth Yardsticks

RS Aero 9 - 1019
D-Zero - 1029
RS Aero 7 - 1068
Laser - 1098
RS Aero 5 - 1129
Laser Radial - 1142

Rooster 8.1 (Laser with an 8.1 sail) has a py of 1051.

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I’d say that was a bit harsh on the 8.1, and evidence that it is used generally as a light wind rig in handicap, and not a lot of returns either. 

Ie I don’t think it is 5% faster than standard across the wind range. 

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2 hours ago, EdS said:

I don't think it´s only about math. It´s aerodinamics.

My son is studying aerodynamics and he says there is a lot of math involved.

But aerodinamics might be different?

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

The panel doing the evaluation are supposed to present their recommendation to the Equipment Committee in May.

After that the Equipment Committee will make a different recommendation to the World Council who will then make a totally different decision that nobody saw coming.

Don't hold your breath.

Looking forward to the Super Sunfish's establishment as the new Olympic class. Long may it reign.

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13 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

10.  Contemporary planing keel boat. Optimum crew weight 500 lbs. Must include one woman.   

But they only have to identify as a women, right?

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  On 3/23/2019 at 6:40 PM, JMP said:

what is the target "size" for an Olympic ladies single handed class again?  Each of the Aero Rig sizes gives you about a 30kg window for variance, with a 7 rig you can be competitive between 55-85kg  for instance, for the 5 rig the range is around 35-65kg.  From what has been seen in mixed fleet racing, the smaller framed folk in 5 rigs can be faster than larger in 7's and so on...  One example that comes to mind is Kate Sargent, who is very quick in a 5 rig compared to the guys in 7's etc

We can't look at what it takes to be competitive in a class when it is not Olympic and assume that things will stay the same when it becomes Olympic. The weight window closes dramatically in an Olympic class, just as it closes when you move from club level to national championship level. I was in one class where all the competitive males nationally were full time sailors weighing about 65kg, if I recall correctly. As soon as it dropped from the Games the competitive weight level increased to about 78kg and part timers became competitive. The design had not changed at all - it's just so much easier to be competitive in a non-Olympic class that those who had been too heavy to win against Olympians could win once the Olympians moved out. The same sort of thing occurred when the Radial became Olympic, but in reverse - the standard of sailing skyrocketed and the weight range became narrower.

One classic example came in Mistral windsurfers, where the men and women used the same kit but the women were concentrated into a fairly narrow weight band, and the men were clustered into another very different but narrow weight band. It wasn't about being the "ideal" weight but being close enough to the norm that you could be consistent. People who are dedicating their life to Olympic sailing were willing to starve or bulk up to move closer to the norm. Amateur sailors won't change their weight to the same extent and don't have to do so to be competitive because the standards are lower.

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20 hours ago, tillerman said:

There is absolutely no truth in the statement that the Aero doesn't have proper rigs for women. Having competed in the RS Aero regatta circuits in New England and Florida over the last  few years in all sorts of wind conditions, I can confirm that many women are very happy sailing Aero 7s and they often perform well in competition against men who are sailing 7 and 9 rigs.

If someone on Aero 7 perform well in competition against Aero 9 it only means that it was amateur level regatta.

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3 hours ago, nieptun said:

If someone on Aero 7 perform well in competition against Aero 9 it only means that it was amateur level regatta.

Of course it was amateur level racing. There are no professionals (sailors paid to sail) in the RS Aero Class.

I should have made it clear I was talking about 7s and 9s racing on handicap.

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21 hours ago, sosoomii said:

And a stiffer rig! You should tell RS that they’ve got their maths wrong and their Aero 7 is more of a handful than a standard Laser. 

That's an interesting thought. Sailing my Laser full rig and the Aero 7 within 5 minutes of each other, I felt like the Aero 7 was a bit more tender at very low speed when getting past the tree line. When the wind was above 10 mph I actually felt more stable in the Aero, especially down wind. I'm only a club level racer, so your mileage may vary.

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On 3/22/2019 at 3:14 PM, bill4 said:

The 470 has stuck to its 1963 roots pretty well.

Another boat that should have been retired long ago. I have only seen one 470 in 15 years at any of my local clubs. I've only seen one D Zero too, make of that what you like. ;-)

It's difficult to get people enthused about sailing when they see the Olympics being sailed in nearly 60 year old boats. Then when they do decide to go sailing and ask about Olympic classes, they're told "no one sails those around here". The Laser is an exception to the rule, it could be argued it's successful in spite of its Olympic status.

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On the other hand, Rob, over the last couple of decades the speed of the fastest dinghies and the fastest Olympic dinghies has increased enormously - and yet sailing has been doing poorly. Since 1996 the speed of the fastest Olympic dinghy has increased by 21%. The speed of the fastest dinghy has increased by about 10% or so. What similar sport can claim such sort of speed gain during that period? Cycling can't. Rowing can't. Kayaking can't.

So if sailing is developing faster than other sports and yet losing numbers while other sports are gaining, how can we say that seeing older and slower boats turns people off?  The 470 is a pretty average boat but one that is faster than the dinghy the normal person will sail. If seeing a 470 at 12-17 knots is turning people off sailing why are they going to much slower SUPs, plastic kayaks and dragon boats?

If seeing a 470 is turning people off sailing then why didn't the Gemba report into the perception of sailing say something to that effect? Why should we not believe one of only two major studies into the barriers for participation in sailing?

I've never seen a 49er or 18 Foot Skiff at my local clubs. My last three clubs used to have a 29er or two - now none of them do. I've seen one very slow Finn in a local club. Another club I used to sail at had Tornadoes and A Class, and a smaller fleet than the clubs with Lasers. As you say, kids at your club haven't got into foilers. There is no evidence that seeing faster boats will turn people onto sailing, and a lot of evidence it scares people off.

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26 minutes ago, Curious said:

On the other hand, ................................................................................................As you say, kids at your club haven't got into foilers. There is no evidence that seeing faster boats will turn people onto sailing, and a lot of evidence it scares people off.

Actually foiling boats attract "different" kids to non foiling boats. I would suggest that apparent wind boats (inc foilers) vs older more displacement styles both have their audience. The relevance of the Olympics to the real world, is a whole other debate :)

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My reference was just to Rob's own club, and to be honest as someone who sails fast boats and slow ones I've never seen a big difference in the adults or the kids that each attracts. The number of kids who are getting into foil racing seems to be pretty moderate. But you're right, both types have their audiences and the relevance of the Olympics is very much an open question.

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5 hours ago, RobG said:

I have only seen one 470 in 15 years at any of my local clubs. I've only seen one D Zero too, make of that what you like. ;-)

It's difficult to get people enthused about sailing when they see the Olympics being sailed in nearly 60 year old boats. Then when they do decide to go sailing and ask about Olympic classes, they're told "no one sails those around here". The Laser is an exception to the rule, it could be argued it's successful in spite of its Olympic status.

I don't think the exact equipment has to be universal for people to recognise the game being played. So I don't think any of the Olympic equipment needs to the same as amateur classes, so long as it represents a branch of the sport. 

I think 'going Olympic' can stifle amateur competition and the only way to combat that is for the class it to be very non-technical and have a good enough base so that amateurs don't regularly come in contact with pro's.... both are true of the laser. But, if the pro's sail one class, and the amateurs sail another similar class, then I see no problem with that.

The 470 represents a branch of classes with symmetrical spinnakers and sometimes trapezes. In a similar way the 49er represents asymmetric 'skiff' classes. That's good enough for me and allows for regions and even specific locations to sail modified one designs which suit their situation.   

I also believe if you're trying to get people enthused about a sport, then starting by telling them about equipment design is the wrong way to go about. It should be immaterial whether the design is 6 or 60 years old.  You need to start with the premise of the game, the risks and rewards, the sporting ideal it is testing.  If the game the equipment promotes is fundamentally good then people will be interested. 

All of this is why I don't think the Laser V Aero V D-Zero V Melges is a huge deal. They all promote very similar, almost indistinguishable versions of dinghy racing. In terms of the boat, it's a like for like replacement. 

 

 

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A basic funnel for sailing might look something like this: Inspire > Capture > Train > Access/Explore > Race > Compete

High-performance boats and the Olympics really hit on the top and tail of that (the Train here is the introduction to sailing/developing basic competence)

Sailing does pretty well at the train. It's OK at the capture where there's a will. It's the access/explore where it's recognised there is work to do, and in this area high performance is pretty much if not completely irrelevant.

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51 minutes ago, rgeek said:

A basic funnel for sailing might look something like this: Inspire > Capture > Train > Access/Explore > Race > Compete

High-performance boats and the Olympics really hit on the top and tail of that (the Train here is the introduction to sailing/developing basic competence)

Sailing does pretty well at the train. It's OK at the capture where there's a will. It's the access/explore where it's recognised there is work to do, and in this area high performance is pretty much if not completely irrelevant.

That's a good train of thought. And from access/explore, there's multiple branches out, race being just one of them. Cruise, family/friends daysailing, etc.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

there's multiple branches out, race being just one of them. Cruise, family/friends daysailing, etc. 

The key difference is that Cruise, Family/Friends day sailing are properly categorized as past times..  They don't require or even want organization, rules, supervision.  They are individual type activities without the element of personal challenge (eg personal challenge of running a marathon) these are not really sport.     These folks are called sailors and I suspect that they pay little or no attention to most forms of racing.    At most, they pay attention to the long distance events because this game seems relevant to the human urge to go from A to B and they get fast is good.

What most of us who generate pixels on the fate of sailing really focus on is the impact on racing.    The fundamental difference here is that you need at least two boats to race and agreement on the basic rules of the game and most importantly... an interest in competing.  Our shared goal is to grow the sport at all levels and so we focus on something like Olympic disciplines and equipment with respect on the impact through out the range of competitive sailing (Optis to America's Cup)

I would argue that the actual "train" we are focused on should be modified from

Access/Explore > Race > Compete .... to     Access > Compete > Race    After all  growing the number of boats on the starting line is the shared goal.

I have never seen data on how many recreational sailors convert to racing sailors. Of course there are tons of anecdotes of recreational sailors who tried wed night club racing and were turned off by some asshole or the competition.  These pixels are balanced by counter anecdotes of how to structure club racing so that its fun and competitive and   XXX is the secret sauce to getting more competitive sailors.  So,  does anybody know of any studies on this dliema?

My personal conclusion was to focus on junior sailors who are competitive. The Olympic choices are relevant to these sailors in order to  inspire and motivate. The competitive spirit will find its proper level over time.   Moreover, trying to find the competitive spark in recreational sailors has been a frustrating effort.

As for Olympic boats.... I want classes that challenge the racer athletically and reward sailing skills... not luck on the race course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tcatman
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2 hours ago, Tcatman said:

The key difference is that Cruise, Family/Friends day sailing are properly categorized as past times..  They don't require or even want organization, rules, supervision.  They are individual type activities without the element of personal challenge (eg personal challenge of running a marathon) these are not really sport.     These folks are called sailors and I suspect that they pay little or no attention to most forms of racing.    At most, they pay attention to the long distance events because this game seems relevant to the human urge to go from A to B and they get fast is good.

What most of us who generate pixels on the fate of sailing really focus on is the impact on racing.    The fundamental difference here is that you need at least two boats to race and agreement on the basic rules of the game and most importantly... an interest in competing.  Our shared goal is to grow the sport at all levels and so we focus on something like Olympic disciplines and equipment with respect on the impact through out the range of competitive sailing (Optis to America's Cup)

I would argue that the actual "train" we are focused on should be modified from

Access/Explore > Race > Compete .... to     Access > Compete > Race    After all  growing the number of boats on the starting line is the shared goal.

I have never seen data on how many recreational sailors convert to racing sailors. Of course there are tons of anecdotes of recreational sailors who tried wed night club racing and were turned off by some asshole or the competition.  These pixels are balanced by counter anecdotes of how to structure club racing so that its fun and competitive and   XXX is the secret sauce to getting more competitive sailors.  So,  does anybody know of any studies on this dliema?

My personal conclusion was to focus on junior sailors who are competitive. The Olympic choices are relevant to these sailors in order to  inspire and motivate. The competitive spirit will find its proper level over time.   Moreover, trying to find the competitive spark in recreational sailors has been a frustrating effort.

As for Olympic boats.... I want classes that challenge the racer athletically and reward sailing skills... not luck on the race course.

12

We work on the following framework for why people stay engaged with sailing:

Social value   >      Competitive success  |  Social connection with the group
                    -----------------------+--------------------
Personal value >    Progression to mastery |  Personal connection with nature & technology

If you're going to deliver value consistently you need to be hitting all of these. Racing works as it provides a context and means to deliver each of these (if done right). With the old racing only model Access/Explore just came down to the selection and purchase of equipment. It's a whole lot different now. Asset ownership is not a priority, and offputting even.

We digress.

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On 3/23/2019 at 3:40 PM, Mambo Kings said:

My son is studying aerodynamics and he says there is a lot of math involved.

But aerodinamics might be different?

pissed myself on this one. cheers j

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8 hours ago, Flags said:

Actually foiling boats attract "different" kids to non foiling boats. ......

Certainly it separates the funded kids from the ones who have to coin up for themselves.  :mellow:

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4 hours ago, Tcatman said:

 

As for Olympic boats.... I want classes that challenge the racer athletically and reward sailing skills... not luck on the race course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are claiming that there are any Olympic boats that don't require skill and athleticism, and where the result is down to luck?  If there's no athleticism is slower boats why are their top sailors so committed to fitness?  It is of course utterly ludicrous for anyone to imply that winning (say) 470 gold is down to the luck of the racecourse.

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12 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

I don't think the exact equipment has to be universal for people to recognise the game being played. So I don't think any of the Olympic equipment needs to the same as amateur classes, so long as it represents a branch of the sport. 

I think 'going Olympic' can stifle amateur competition and the only way to combat that is for the class it to be very non-technical and have a good enough base so that amateurs don't regularly come in contact with pro's.... both are true of the laser. But, if the pro's sail one class, and the amateurs sail another similar class, then I see no problem with that.

The 470 represents a branch of classes with symmetrical spinnakers and sometimes trapezes. In a similar way the 49er represents asymmetric 'skiff' classes. That's good enough for me and allows for regions and even specific locations to sail modified one designs which suit their situation.   

I also believe if you're trying to get people enthused about a sport, then starting by telling them about equipment design is the wrong way to go about. It should be immaterial whether the design is 6 or 60 years old.  You need to start with the premise of the game, the risks and rewards, the sporting ideal it is testing.  If the game the equipment promotes is fundamentally good then people will be interested. 

All of this is why I don't think the Laser V Aero V D-Zero V Melges is a huge deal. They all promote very similar, almost indistinguishable versions of dinghy racing. In terms of the boat, it's a like for like replacement. 

 

 

Bang on as ever Mozzy

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18 hours ago, Curious said:

On the other hand, Rob, over the last couple of decades the speed of the fastest dinghies and the fastest Olympic dinghies has increased enormously - and yet sailing has been doing poorly.

I'm not talking about speed, I just want the equipment be reasonably modern. I don't care if the Laser continues as an Olympic class, but would like it to have a modest upgrade program. Carbon spars should cost no more than the current aluminium sections and outlast the boat. The construction techniques and materials could be updated with minimal impact on performance but better longevity and a little less weight. The sail could be reviewed for update say every 4 or 5 years. It doesn't have to be updated that often, but it should stay reasonably fresh.

As an example, aluminium sections are now a total PIA. Impulse sailors who want a stiffer mast put a carbon tube up the middle, which causes electrolytic corrosion and failure of the aluminium after a few seasons. Buying a new mast means waiting for the manufacturer to run off 40 or 50 because it's not economical to do smaller batches. A local boat builder was asked to do a couple of Puffin Pacers but knocked the order back because he couldn't get just 2 masts, the supplier had run out of stock and wanted him to buy a minimum batch of 32.

A carbon spar spun on a mandrel as a one–off is likely only fractionally more expensive per spar than a batch run. But classes refuses to endorse carbon spars claiming either cost or difficulty of grandfathering old gear. It seems to me that in many cases the cost argument is put without proper assessment. The same argument can likely be made for other materials and construction techniques: they were expensive when introduced, but most are now very well known and shouldn't have a big effect on the overall cost of production.

E.g. a vacuum bagged carbon 16' skiff hull (made in China) is cheaper than a Laser. Getting it to sail–away with two rigs and sets of sails will set you back another $30k or so, so focussing on the materials and construction techniques just because they used to be expensive is not reasonable.

Quote

 

If seeing a 470 is turning people off sailing then why didn't the Gemba report into the perception of sailing say something to that effect? Why should we not believe one of only two major studies into the barriers for participation in sailing?

 

I didn't say the 470 specifically was turning people off sailing. The issue is that people see boats in the Olympics that they rarely if ever see at a club, because club sailors don't want to sail them (where the Laser is an exception).

Quote

It was just I've never seen a 49er or 18 Foot Skiff at my local clubs. My last three clubs used to have a 29er or two - now none of them do. I've seen one very slow Finn in a local club. Another club I used to sail at had Tornadoes and A Class, and a smaller fleet than the clubs with Lasers. As you say, kids at your club haven't got into foilers. There is no evidence that seeing faster boats will turn people onto sailing, and a lot of evidence it scares people off.

I've had more or less the same experience. But I'm not really talking about this class or that, just that the boats should be reasonably modern. They can be old designs, just freshened up.

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On 3/23/2019 at 7:10 AM, nieptun said:

One more example that Aero and Dzero don't have proper rigs for women.

Is that so? You'd better come and break that news to the sailors in the Aero fleet in my club, who are mostly women.

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

I'm not talking about speed, I just want the equipment be reasonably modern. I don't care if the Laser continues as an Olympic class, but would like it to have a modest upgrade program. Carbon spars should cost no more than the current aluminium sections and outlast the boat. The construction techniques and materials could be updated with minimal impact on performance but better longevity and a little less weight. The sail could be reviewed for update say every 4 or 5 years. It doesn't have to be updated that often, but it should stay reasonably fresh.

As an example, aluminium sections are now a total PIA. Impulse sailors who want a stiffer mast put a carbon tube up the middle, which causes electrolytic corrosion and failure of the aluminium after a few seasons. Buying a new mast means waiting for the manufacturer to run off 40 or 50 because it's not economical to do smaller batches. A local boat builder was asked to do a couple of Puffin Pacers but knocked the order back because he couldn't get just 2 masts, the supplier had run out of stock and wanted him to buy a minimum batch of 32.

A carbon spar spun on a mandrel as a one–off is likely only fractionally more expensive per spar than a batch run. But classes refuses to endorse carbon spars claiming either cost or difficulty of grandfathering old gear. It seems to me that in many cases the cost argument is put without proper assessment. The same argument can likely be made for other materials and construction techniques: they were expensive when introduced, but most are now very well known and shouldn't have a big effect on the overall cost of production.

E.g. a vacuum bagged carbon 16' skiff hull (made in China) is cheaper than a Laser. Getting it to sail–away with two rigs and sets of sails will set you back another $30k or so, so focussing on the materials and construction techniques just because they used to be expensive is not reasonable.

I didn't say the 470 specifically was turning people off sailing. The issue is that people see boats in the Olympics that they rarely if ever see at a club, because club sailors don't want to sail them (where the Laser is an exception).

I've had more or less the same experience. But I'm not really talking about this class or that, just that the boats should be reasonably modern. They can be old designs, just freshened up.

Ah, OK; we're on the same page as far as upgrades go. Yep, it'd be great to see the Laser upgraded for more durability, and carbon spars would be a great way to go - just so long as we don't split the class or have to buy an entire new expensive rig. 

Apart from the Laser and (apparently) in Germany there don't seem to have been many Olympic classes that are popular at club level for eons, so we may just have to live with it. 

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18 hours ago, Curious said:

Are claiming that there are any Olympic boats that don't require skill and athleticism, and where the result is down to luck?  If there's no athleticism is slower boats why are their top sailors so committed to fitness?  It is of course utterly ludicrous for anyone to imply that winning (say) 470 gold is down to the luck of the racecourse.

Nacra 17s had break down issues in the first quad...  bad luck if one of those bit you in your qualification attempt.  They got a lot of the breakdown stuff sorted by Rio. .  However,  The boat was unstable with thousands of photos of the thing popping a wheelie.   The randomness of the bad behavior IMO was a matter of good or bad luck.   The boat had to be fixed and version two is quite different.  The new dinghy designs seem  to be mature designs and proper sailing behavior.  Breakdowns don't seem to be a problem either.

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Imagine we will hear some interesting news that throws some gasoline on the entire selection process here in a few hours.

Should be interesting.  Maybe more distractions, maybe progress, maybe just politics....
I don't usually post 'teasers' but, uh, what I'm hearing is fairly big in the context of this selection process/journey.

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Gasoline you say...  Sounds significant!!

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5 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Imagine we will hear some interesting news that throws some gasoline on the entire selection process here in a few hours.

Should be interesting.  Maybe more distractions, maybe progress, maybe just politics....
I don't usually post 'teasers' but, uh, what I'm hearing is fairly big in the context of this selection process/journey.

What website should keep an eye on?

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I am thinking WestCoast has an inside source. Deep Thwart, if you will.

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8 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Deep Thwart, if you will.

nice

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6 minutes ago, lemonpepper said:

I bet Bethwaite has designed a new overpriced rig for the Finn. Oh wait, they already have that. 

For now...

 

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WS will announce that the Super Snark has been selected ahead of the Laser, Aero, D-zero and Melges 14. 

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LaserPerformance are suing Up Marine, PSA, ILCA, and Bethwaite for conspiracy to improve the Laser without LP's permission.
 

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

LaserPerformance are suing Up Marine, PSA, ILCA, and Bethwaite for conspiracy to improve the Laser without LP's permission.
  

at least they know how to produce lawyers fees

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16 minutes ago, LTFF said:

How long is a few hours?

more than two and less than 24 I think

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I hear they have decided to turf the single-handed dinghy altogether and simply go with 2 couples in the keelboat event instead of just one. This keeps the male/female ratio in check and it will be filmed as a reality show, thereby enhancing TV ratings. 

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18 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I hear they have decided to turf the single-handed dinghy altogether and simply go with 2 couples in the keelboat event instead of just one. This keeps the male/female ratio in check and it will be filmed as a reality show, thereby enhancing TV ratings. 

Lol it’ll be a play on the bachelor one skipper and a bunch of crew to “date” before they select the one

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29 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

It looks like this thread has some new air blown into the conspiracy.

I think I have a long track record here of only opening my mouth when I know real, factual things that impact a thread.

Will you take the time when the announcement is released to come back and acknowledge a smarmy comment really didn't add anything to the discourse?

 

I'm trying hard to raise the bar here and provide facts. Something that is missing here quite often.

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6 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Nacra 17s had break down issues in the first quad...  bad luck if one of those bit you in your qualification attempt.  They got a lot of the breakdown stuff sorted by Rio. .  However,  The boat was unstable with thousands of photos of the thing popping a wheelie.   The randomness of the bad behavior IMO was a matter of good or bad luck.   The boat had to be fixed and version two is quite different.  The new dinghy designs seem  to be mature designs and proper sailing behavior.  Breakdowns don't seem to be a problem either.

The impression Sally Darminin gave in a talk at our club was that the N17's handling issues meant that the sailing was more about "athleticism and raw sailing skills" than most others, in that their training focus was on sheer boathandling skills rather than rig tweaking, two-boat tuning, tactics and honing of minute details as in other classes.  Sally said that their lack of a regular training partner (which is of course an indication of what bullshit it is to claim that foiling attracts lots of sailors) wasn't a problem because the main thing to do was to just sail around concentrating on keeping the 17 going and (if I recall correctly) balanced on the foils as much as possible. Personally I'd call that a major emphasis on athleticism and sailing skills.

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29 minutes ago, Curious said:

The impression Sally Darminin gave in a talk at our club was that the N17's handling issues meant that the sailing was more about "athleticism and raw sailing skills" than most others, in that their training focus was on sheer boathandling skills rather than rig tweaking, two-boat tuning, tactics and honing of minute details as in other classes.  Sally said that their lack of a regular training partner (which is of course an indication of what bullshit it is to claim that foiling attracts lots of sailors) wasn't a problem because the main thing to do was to just sail around concentrating on keeping the 17 going and (if I recall correctly) balanced on the foils as much as possible. Personally I'd call that a major emphasis on athleticism and sailing skills.

Sally?

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53 minutes ago, Curious said:

Personally I'd call that a major emphasis on athleticism and sailing skills.

And I would call your accurate description of the class  compelling evidence of a complete and total failure.    When you don't need a TEAMATE as your partner because the most important thing to do on the boat was keep the pointy side up... and balanced on foils... you have got a hell of a low bar about both  a sea worthy boat and what the Olympic sailing game is all about.. ... Those fine details are the skills that separate the best TEAMS  in the world on the race course.....   so... YMMV.... I would think you want a boat that rewards those teams for sailing it well.

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13 hours ago, Curious said:

Ah, OK; we're on the same page as far as upgrades go. Yep, it'd be great to see the Laser upgraded for more durability, and carbon spars would be a great way to go - just so long as we don't split the class or have to buy an entire new expensive rig. 

Apart from the Laser and (apparently) in Germany there don't seem to have been many Olympic classes that are popular at club level for eons, so we may just have to live with it. 

There are Finn fleets building at a few clubs around Australia. 40 boats on the line at nationals, two thirds of whom were club sailing masters. Pretty similar numbers and proportions to the Laser standard rig Nationals.  Finns are huge at the Masters level, especially in Europe. 

Agree regarding other Olympic classes though.

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7 hours ago, WestCoast said:

Imagine we will hear some interesting news that throws some