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New Olympic Dinghy Selection

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Who currently owns the Laser trademarks for North America and Europe?

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Welp this cant help the chances of the laser staying an Olympic boat right?

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1 hour ago, torrid said:

Velum Ltd.

Which is owned by...

....Rastegar, of course. 

 

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So another 5 year legal battle with end result: Lawyers $millions, Sailors Nothing.

 

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Unless the ILCA abandon the use of the Laser trademarks in LPs territory.

I haven't been keeping up. Has there been a major changing of the guard in the ILCA administration?

Its hard to understand LP/Rastregar's motivation. It seems as if they're constantly spoiling for a fight. Can it really be good for business?

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2 hours ago, LTFF said:

Welp this cant help the chances of the laser staying an Olympic boat right?

More likely to help than hinder I suspect, as this should solve the supply issues that have been concerning WS and the sailors for a long time. 

ILCA are within their rights but trademark ownership will be the biggest issue. LP can continue to sell boats called Lasers, they just won't be class legal. A new builder won't be able to use the Laser trademark without LPE's agreement. Maybe there's a class name and logo change coming up?

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1 hour ago, redstar said:

More likely to help than hinder I suspect, as this should solve the supply issues that have been concerning WS and the sailors for a long time. 

ILCA are within their rights but trademark ownership will be the biggest issue. LP can continue to sell boats called Lasers, they just won't be class legal. A new builder won't be able to use the Laser trademark without LPE's agreement. Maybe there's a class name and logo change coming up?

Torch?

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Previous post from ILCA

https://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/01/22/announcement-from-ilca/

And the LP Post which prompted it

https://www.facebook.com/LaserPerformanceSailboats/posts/10156902815228426?__tn__=-R

Certainly seems as if LP think everyone is out to get them. Interesting turnaround after ILCA apparently assisted LP in the Kirby dispute.

Also interesting is the  "Laser Class Action Group" mentioned in the LP Facebook post.. I can't find any mention of such an organisation on the web other than sourced from that LP press release.

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I'm mildly interested to see if the new laser prices in the US will go up a couple of grand now to match the Australian prices :p

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11 hours ago, WestCoast said:

I'm trying hard to raise the bar here and provide facts. Something that is missing here quite often.

That's nice but you forgot to add the facts.

If it's about LPE. I so could not give a shit.

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^^^ 

Great comment - adds lots of detail to the story.  Well done.
I clearly don't have any of the facts.

--
There is quite a lot of chatter in all circles today. Lots of phone calls, texts and what not.
Officially, on my part it's just a sad bow on the present that has been the drama of the last 9 years.

Most of us involved just want to work with the class/builder to help customers, support sailing and carry on.
We want to sell boats, service boats and do what we're good at.
We want to be able to buy parts, and help people go sailing.
We want to be able to work with people to support events and sailors.

These side shows frustrate everyone in the supply chain, and just make the job harder for all parties.
Maybe it will bring relief and improvement... but I don't think it will do so before creating even more damage to the class.

I don't know what happens next, but have some informed guesses.

Imagine lawsuits will start by the weekend or early next week. Name change will be announced in short order from the ILCA side of things.
No idea how this plays off long term, but, it's sad to me to see how deep this once powerful class has decayed over the last ~decade.

 

I realize it's business, and it's not always pretty - I get that.  But the one part that has always confused so many of us is why builders and class have been so at odds, for so long.
You think at some point everyone would just say 'listen, this is insane, let's figure this out, carry on building boats, helping customers, supplying the world, etc'
And, at least publicly, or with real intention behind it.... that just has never happened.

So, I get the sense this is the divorce that has been brewing for a while.
Maybe the couple gets back together as the Sunfish class somewhat appears to have... but, I personally just can't see that happening.

It's a brave new world.
We're going to keep buying and selling boats and parts and doing our job, but I feel like our job once again just got more complicated.

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7 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

^^^ 

Great comment - adds lots of detail to the story.  Well done.
I clearly don't have any of the facts.

 

You didn't share them. You just wanted to boast about knowing something we didn't know. Not a good look.

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41 minutes ago, WestCoast said:


You think at some point everyone would just say 'listen, this is insane, let's figure this out, carry on building boats, helping customers, supplying the world, etc.'
 

Amen!  
 

 

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So is there a chance boats made by LP won’t be class legal? I have a 17’ built in the UK and I’ll be pissed if this is the case

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They’re still up for sale on their website. No mention of them not being class legal. 

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40 minutes ago, LTFF said:

So is there a chance boats made by LP won’t be class legal? I have a 17’ built in the UK and I’ll be pissed if this is the case

 

 Assuming you are talking about a Laser-1, I can't see a 17' boat being class legal regardless of where it was built...

: ) Sorry...

                   W>

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50 minutes ago, LTFF said:

So is there a chance boats made by LP won’t be class legal? I have a 17’ built in the UK and I’ll be pissed if this is the case

Boats with an ISAF plaque are legal now and will remain so. The only question mark would be if it were to turn out that LPE have stopped building boats according to the construction manual. **IF** so then those boats might be problematic. That's 100% pure speculation with no evidence whatsoever, and even if this totally unfounded speculation were to be correct its certainly not going to affect anything but very recent boats, and a 17xxxx (or 2017) boat certainly isn't that.

 

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3 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

 

 Assuming you are talking about a Laser-1, I can't see a 17' boat being class legal regardless of where it was built...

: ) Sorry...

                   W>

You don’t seriously think poster meant 17foot do you? Although not clear if he meant 2017 build or 17xxxx sail number 

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If LPE were chucking out 17' boats then I can see why ILCA questioned their build protocol and requested a factory tour!

Will this have any impact Olympic single hander trials? I'm not sure how accurate the ILCA assertion is that they still have two perfectly good builders and it will be a imperceptible transition to a new one in Europe and US.   

I hope Devoti apply to be the Euro and American builder. 

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I would imagine LP hulls delivered to a dealer or buyer before yesterday are ok or grandfathered in.  However, anything from LP today forward would not be.  Won't know anything for sure until we get details from ILCA.

If I'm a lawyer for LP the first thing I go for is an injunction on the ILCA move until all court proceedings are completed.

 

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LPE is just preparing for post-brexit return to traditional measures and Laser length has always been 17 Blue Passports 

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Sorry y’all I meant 2017 built, clearly my coffee hasn’t kicked in yet

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3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

You didn't share them. You just wanted to boast about knowing something we didn't know. Not a good look.

Dude, STFU and stop trying to ruin an entertaining thread by being a dick.

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dogwatch can't really help himself.  he's reached that 'get off my lawn' point in life

7 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Dude, STFU and stop trying to ruin an entertaining thread by being a dick.

 

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35 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

dogwatch can't really help himself.  he's reached that 'get off my lawn' point in life

 

Clean, you are no youngster yourself any more. Get used to it. At least I've still got my hair.

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47 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Dude, STFU and stop trying to ruin an entertaining thread by being a dick.

Actually you are right. I apologise.

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

At least I've still got my hair.

Well now you made me as angry as you!!!

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-03-28 at 2.40.58 PM.png

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On 3/27/2019 at 8:02 AM, dogwatch said:

Is that so? You'd better come and break that news to the sailors in the Aero fleet in my club, who are mostly women.

So you are a lucky guy.  Do you have any video to show how women from your club sail upwind and downwind in strong winds? Of course on 7 rig.

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Why all the talk about rigs for women ? The only important thing is the skill of the sailor and the size/weight of the sailor . The added power advantage of being a man only counts at the very highest end of our sport. For most of us weekend sailors , skill is much more important. My wife is a much better sailor than me ( she has beaten me a lot more than I have beaten her in what ever boats we have competed in laser/laser radial/ aero 7/supernovas or currently British moth ) She would consider it very condescending for people to think she needed a ‘ special/different ‘ rig to compete against men .

 

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2 hours ago, Xeon said:

Why all the talk about rigs for women ? The only important thing is the skill of the sailor and the size/weight of the sailor . The added power advantage of being a man only counts at the very highest end of our sport. For most of us weekend sailors , skill is much more important. My wife is a much better sailor than me ( she has beaten me a lot more than I have beaten her in what ever boats we have competed in laser/laser radial/ aero 7/supernovas or currently British moth ) She would consider it very condescending for people to think she needed a ‘ special/different ‘ rig to compete against men .

 

Because women are mostly lighter than men.

I totally agree with you that two things are important: "the skill of the sailor and the size/weight of the sailor".

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49 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

There is a button on top that says ENG  to redirect.

It just redirects you to Luca's blog

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On 3/30/2019 at 5:01 AM, nieptun said:

Why all the talk about rigs for women ? The only important thing is the skill of the sailor and the size/weight of the sailor .

Since sailing is a contest of skill, why not talk about rigs for different height classes, then, and forget about gender altogether?

A new dinghy -- or a new set of rigs for an old dinghy -- would be a golden opportunity for sailing to break with tradition and kick gender out of the equation.

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because its well established that men and women of the same height and weight have different physical capabilities.

 

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I know. I'm not denying it. I'm just not so sure that those differences are so relevant to dinghy sailing once height and weight are equalised. Racing dinghies doesn't require 100% power output or 100% endurance.

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8 minutes ago, Xharlie said:

I know. I'm not denying it. I'm just not so sure that those differences are so relevant to dinghy sailing once height and weight are equalised. Racing dinghies doesn't require 100% power output or 100% endurance.

I am very sure the differences are relevant. Sailing a Laser in a blow is extremely physical with a strong emphasis on power output and endurance. 

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Its about mass distribution between male and females and righting moment.   Lots of data referenced from 470s in long ago threads.   Theory and data match up on this one.   Bottom line... two events.... sorted by testosterone levels.    

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Ok. Then. If there's concrete data proving me wrong, I'll admit defeat.

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The absolute minimum body fat percentage in females is about 8% and males is 2%, based on that a male at the same height/weight as a female has a greater advantage because they have a higher useful mass

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Interesting theory about muscles and fat.

By the way, is it possible to find results of your last EASTER LASER REGATTA (WITH AEROS)?

Any conclusion after Aero and Laser regatta?

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Compare a man and a woman at the same strength level (1RM max). The woman can stand more volume at reduced weights. For example, a man and a woman both are deadlifting a weight of 100kg for 5 repetitions. Reduce the weight to 80kg. The woman can lift it up about 10 times. The man only for 7 or 8 times. 

I think the reason why male sailors are at a higher level (in the olympic sailing sport) is because there is much more competition. 

Hight, weight or strength are nice to have and they will give you a slight advantage in some conditions. But the level is not that high that it will make any difference in the end result. In other words, male sailors are not that strong that a woman can't reach their 10RM performance. 

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3 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

Compare a man and a woman at the same strength level (1RM max). The woman can stand more volume at reduced weights. For example, a man and a woman both are deadlifting a weight of 100kg for 5 repetitions. Reduce the weight to 80kg. The woman can lift it up about 10 times. The man only for 7 or 8 times. 

I think the reason why male sailors are at a higher level (in the olympic sailing sport) is because there is much more competition. 

Hight, weight or strength are nice to have and they will give you a slight advantage in some conditions. But the level is not that high that it will make any difference in the end result. In other words, male sailors are not that strong that a woman can't reach their 10RM performance. 

Experts like Michael Blackburn, who has a PhD in sports science, an Olympic Laser medal of his own and was the coach to two Laser gold medallists, say that height and weight DOES matter, and that is impossible to be fully competitive in (for example) a standard rig Laser at 72kg and 1.75m. Michael also notes that his PhD project in Laser hiking showed that in some ways the effort is comparable to bicycle racing, which shows that extremes of strength are required and women are therefore at a disadvantage.

 

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2 hours ago, nieptun said:

Thanks for the link.
You forgotten add Aero rig size to the results.
Why Lasers had six races and Aeros only five?

The AEROs decided to sail boat on boat with a special  handicap for the five. 

The course was W-L-W-R-L-W-L-f

the five got to head up to the finish withouy sailing the  second W-L

She only got there first once but she beat her boyfriend and won a giant bunny 

 

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13 hours ago, Curious said:

Experts like Michael Blackburn, who has a PhD in sports science, an Olympic Laser medal of his own and was the coach to two Laser gold medallists, say that height and weight DOES matter, and that is impossible to be fully competitive in (for example) a standard rig Laser at 72kg and 1.75m. Michael also notes that his PhD project in Laser hiking showed that in some ways the effort is comparable to bicycle racing, which shows that extremes of strength are required and women are therefore at a disadvantage.

 

I can't speak for the Laser but in the Nacra it seams that hight and weight only has a small influence on the race results. I would even say hight is not important at all. The thing with the laser is that the lever that keeps the boat upright is basically your body. At a N17 or a 49er you have the with from the (leeward) daggerboard all the way up to your head as a lever. Lets compare: 

Laser: Sailor 1: 190cm / Sailor 2: 170cm (both has the same weight)
difference: The lever arm of Sailor 1 is 11,8% taller 

Nacra: Sailor 1: 190cm + Boat 250cm = 440cm / Sailor 2. 170cm + Boat 250cm = 420cm 
difference: The lever arm of Sailor 1 is 4,8% taller

The interesting thing is that I never have seen sailors with extreme hights or extreme power. Deadlifting 200kg or 250kg is still possible for most males. I know the numbers of some of the top sailors in the N17 class. No one is lifting over 200kg. No one in this class is extremely tall and some of the best sailors in past years are relatively small. 

And there is one important question. Smaller People with short arms and short legs can produce more maximum power than taller people. Thats why people with a very good bench press look similar to human T-Rexes. So what is more important a big lever arm (tall) or maximum power in the legs? If it would be that important sailors would have short legs and a very large torso. Laser sailors would wear a heavy helmet to get more weight at the end of their lever arm... 

Compared with other sports like weight lifting (short arms and legs), running (different muscle fibers) basketball (tall people) or olympic gymnastics (small people)  the level in sailing is not that high that the physical body is the most important thing. And it can't be that high because sailing is a very complex sport where you have to be good in a variety of conditions and fields. The simpler the class (laser) the more important is the physical body. 

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As your figures show, height is important in the Laser. That's why the Olympic medallist who did a PhD in Laser hiking reckon height is important. What more evidence do we need?  Yes, there may not be an enormous difference, and very tall sailors may struggle to be agile enough. But at the top level, even a tiny bit of extra leverage can be the difference between coming off the startline and leading at the top mark, or being lee-bowed by heavier sailors and driven back to 20th place. On the other hand, the powerful Annalise Murphy was dominant in a breeze in 2012 but was walloped in the light stuff.

By the way, in your earlier post you claimed that "I think the reason why male sailors are at a higher level (in the olympic sailing sport) is because there is much more competition."   By the same reasoning, there must be vastly more competition in the Lasers and Radials than in Nacras, because the number of Radial and Laser sailors is many times greater than that of Nacra sailors. There are only 115 ranked Nacra teams compared to 648 ranked Lasers and 453 Radials. Of course, at club and national level the disparity is vastly greater - the UK has a fairly big Nacra 17 fleet (just 18 boats!) but about 1500 Laser class members. So if women are less competitive because there are fewer of them, then by the same reasoning the Nacra must be dramatically less competitive still. Note that I am not the person claiming one class is significantly less competitive - you are.

By the way, Laser sailors aren't allowed to wear heavy helmets and they did wear weight jackets when they were allowed to. And there is no simple rule that says the simpler the boat, the more important the physique becomes. In the extremely complicated Star, for example, having the right body type is absolutely critical - lightweights are utterly uncompetitive in a breeze. In the complicated A Class, Steve Brewin reckons he has a disadvantage against Glenn Ashby because Glenn is much bigger and has more righting moment.

 

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Would a foiling dinghy bridge the gap between men and women?

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I cannot think of any reason why it should.

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Evaluation committee results should be released late next week.

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1 hour ago, WestCoast said:

Evaluation committee results should be released late next week.

Forgive a lazy question - I have not done my homework - but do you mean decision and is it final?

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http://www.sailing.org/news/88576.php#.XMWcNmaZPBI
World Sailing, the world governing body of the sport, wishes to make clear its position on the current issues surrounding the Equipment for the Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy Events at Tokyo 2020.
World Sailing is aware of the current dispute between the international class association (ILCA) and its main manufacturer (Laser Performance). Both parties have kept World Sailing informed of their position and the information will be considered as part of the ongoing Equipment Selection Process for the Paris 2024 Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy. World Sailing is committed to following its published procedures for this process and it will be for the World Sailing Council to make a decision on the Equipment for the Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy Events having received the recommendation and report of the Equipment Committee.

However, World Sailing is concerned that recent public statements overstate conversations with World Sailing officials.

World Sailing has not endorsed or pre-approved the proposed name change of the Laser to the ILCA Dinghy. World Sailing's Board of Directors and Senior Management Team have continuously maintained a position that World Sailing will deal with any applications for class rule changes when they are made by ILCA to World Sailing. To date, World Sailing has received no class rule change requests related to the name of the boat and, if formally made, World Sailing will process any applications in accordance with the relevant World Sailing Regulations.

Concerning the issue of World Sailing's Olympic Equipment Policy, World Sailing has not approved any individual class or manufacturers' position concerning production and intellectual property rights. What World Sailing has done, and continues to do, is to listen carefully and note our stakeholders' positions in this area.
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27 minutes ago, tillerman said:
http://www.sailing.org/news/88576.php#.XMWcNmaZPBI
World Sailing, the world governing body of the sport, wishes to make clear its position on the current issues surrounding the Equipment for the Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy Events at Tokyo 2020.
World Sailing is aware of the current dispute between the international class association (ILCA) and its main manufacturer (Laser Performance). Both parties have kept World Sailing informed of their position and the information will be considered as part of the ongoing Equipment Selection Process for the Paris 2024 Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy. World Sailing is committed to following its published procedures for this process and it will be for the World Sailing Council to make a decision on the Equipment for the Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy Events having received the recommendation and report of the Equipment Committee.

However, World Sailing is concerned that recent public statements overstate conversations with World Sailing officials.

World Sailing has not endorsed or pre-approved the proposed name change of the Laser to the ILCA Dinghy. World Sailing's Board of Directors and Senior Management Team have continuously maintained a position that World Sailing will deal with any applications for class rule changes when they are made by ILCA to World Sailing. To date, World Sailing has received no class rule change requests related to the name of the boat and, if formally made, World Sailing will process any applications in accordance with the relevant World Sailing Regulations.

Concerning the issue of World Sailing's Olympic Equipment Policy, World Sailing has not approved any individual class or manufacturers' position concerning production and intellectual property rights. What World Sailing has done, and continues to do, is to listen carefully and note our stakeholders' positions in this area.

How very proper and lawyerly of them.  How very prophylactic.

No matter who they actually support its the only thing they can and should say!  Clearly they listen to their lawyers!! 

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Here's how to hike! Nick Craig, amongst many many world, european and national titles, here sailing a D-0

Try hiking like that up a 20 minute beat! Guess that's why he's 5 times world OK champion

BrassMonkey2018-1.jpg

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

Forgive a lazy question - I have not done my homework - but do you mean decision and is it final?

The ‘equipment selection committee’ will make its recommendation to World Sailing based on which of the four boats best fit the criteria laid out during the evaluation & trials in Valencia.

From there, a ~44 person committee made up of member nations will vote and that will decide what will be in the games in 2024.
That committee is not required to follow the recommendations of the equipment selection committee.

It’s expected that *that* final vote will occur at the WS meeting in May and then we’ll all know :)
I do believe that the recommendations of the evaluation committee will be weighed heavily by those on the actual voting committee.


Personally, I am not an expert on the inner politics of all this.  Just know that the first of two key decisions is coming shortly. 

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2 hours ago, avantgardaclue said:

Here's how to hike! Nick Craig, amongst many many world, european and national titles, here sailing a D-0

Try hiking like that up a 20 minute beat! Guess that's why he's 5 times world OK champion

BrassMonkey2018-1.jpg

Very nice stone walls.

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3 hours ago, avantgardaclue said:

Here's how to hike! Nick Craig, amongst many many world, european and national titles, here sailing a D-0

Try hiking like that up a 20 minute beat! Guess that's why he's 5 times world OK champion

BrassMonkey2018-1.jpg

Definitely “Hollywood hiking” ;-)

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On 4/26/2019 at 11:31 AM, born2sail.at said:

The interesting thing is that I never have seen sailors with extreme hights or extreme power. Deadlifting 200kg or 250kg is still possible for most males. I know the numbers of some of the top sailors in the N17 class. No one is lifting over 200kg. No one in this class is extremely tall and some of the best sailors in past years are relatively small. 


 

Max Salminen. 105kg and nearly 2M tall. Probably deadlifts more than 200kg.

//end of bitter Finn sailor rant//

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I seem to remember reading in Micahel Blackburn's book on Sailing fitness and training that due to the contraction of the lower body muscles (as above) that blood pressure gets very high due to the heart having to force blood through contracted muscle. Also he points out that the shear loads on the body at the point where the legs cross the side deck are very high.

Given that it's not surprising that so many Laser sailors (me included) have built up knee injuries over the years. The reduced blood flow around the knee joint can't do anyone any good.

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22 minutes ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Max Salminen. 105kg and nearly 2M tall. Probably deadlifts more than 200kg.

//end of bitter Finn sailor rant//


The British sailor, Ed Wright, won the regatta.

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Let's not get too excited about this issue.

The just concluded  Genoa World Sailing event had very light winds during the week and Laser medal races on Sunday in 5-10 mph. 

 

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1 hour ago, WestCoast said:

The ‘equipment selection committee’ will make its recommendation to World Sailing based on which of the four boats best fit the criteria laid out during the evaluation & trials in Valencia.

From there, a ~44 person committee made up of member nations will vote and that will decide what will be in the games in 2024.
That committee is not required to follow the recommendations of the equipment selection committee.

It’s expected that *that* final vote will occur at the WS meeting in May and then we’ll all know :)
I do believe that the recommendations of the evaluation committee will be weighed heavily by those on the actual voting committee.


Personally, I am not an expert on the inner politics of all this.  Just know that the first of two key decisions is coming shortly. 

Thanks!

 

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3 hours ago, Dart96 said:

I seem to remember reading in Micahel Blackburn's book on Sailing fitness and training that due to the contraction of the lower body muscles (as above) that blood pressure gets very high due to the heart having to force blood through contracted muscle. Also he points out that the shear loads on the body at the point where the legs cross the side deck are very high.

Given that it's not surprising that so many Laser sailors (me included) have built up knee injuries over the years. The reduced blood flow around the knee joint can't do anyone any good.

Lots of people get injured doing sport. A quick Google shows studies that show that 1/3 to 2/3 of keen people in sports like cycling and tennis suffer joint issues, so why blame the Laser when people get injured when sailing?  I've got dodgy knees from cycling and bad rotator cuffs from windsurfing but it's not the fault of Cervelo or Mistral.

Actually some sources say exactly the opposite - that straight leg hiking is better because it doesn't displace the patella. For example an article by UK guru Steve Cockerill and a physio explained thast ""Bent leg hiking causes huge pressure on the kneecap. Research has shown that when the knee is fully straight the load placed on the patella is minimal. However if the knee is bent 30 degrees, twice the body weight is exerted on the joint and at 60 degrees the load exceeds ten times the body weight!"  I'm fairly sure that Blackburn has said the same.

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10 hours ago, Curious said:

 so why blame the Laser when people get injured when sailing? 

The problems clearly aren't specific to the Laser. Nevertheless it's also pretty clear that the design of many, even all hiking dinghies makes it possible to put greater loads on the knee area than is safe. As society grows more risk averse that will, I imagine, have to change. How that will be managed I have no idea.

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On 4/27/2019 at 3:20 AM, Curious said:

By the way, in your earlier post you claimed that "I think the reason why male sailors are at a higher level (in the olympic sailing sport) is because there is much more competition."   By the same reasoning, there must be vastly more competition in the Lasers and Radials than in Nacras, because the number of Radial and Laser sailors is many times greater than that of Nacra sailors. There are only 115 ranked Nacra teams compared to 648 ranked Lasers and 453 Radials. Of course, at club and national level the disparity is vastly greater - the UK has a fairly big Nacra 17 fleet (just 18 boats!) but about 1500 Laser class members. So if women are less competitive because there are fewer of them, then by the same reasoning the Nacra must be dramatically less competitive still. Note that I am not the person claiming one class is significantly less competitive - you are.

The level in the Nacra fleet is less competitive compared with the Laser. In the Nacra there are so many things we do not know, there are different ways how to sail the boat fast. There are not a lot of coaches (especially entry level). Even slightly older sailors can win regattas and also a lot of the top sailors switched from the 49er class. 

Stating that the level of competition is not as high as in the Laser that does not mean that is easier to win a Nacra race. There are many things that are much more difficult in the Nacra. In the Laser you find training groups all over the world at all levels, in the Nacra you have to build your own training group as a country. I mentioned, finding a coach is not easy. Founding is a big issue. The boat itself is much more complex. There are only a few regattas, so getting regatta experience, is almost impossible in this class. So if you choose to sail a Nacra 17 you skip the whole entry level phase and find yourself messing around with the big boys. While in the Laser you have the option to sail regattas at any level you want, which makes it easier to learn how to sail the boat. 

Lets say it this way, in the laser, sailing is the biggest part of the game because the infrastructure is there. In the Nacra the infrastructure like coach, material, training partners, founding and traveling are much more important. 

 

16 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Max Salminen. 105kg and nearly 2M tall. Probably deadlifts more than 200kg.

//end of bitter Finn sailor rant//

I would not say that 105kg and 2M are extreme for the finn class. Would a 215 guy with 120kg be faster? 

I choose the 200kg because they can be reached by almost any male sailor. 200kg@ 105kg bodyweight is just intermediate. The top 5% in this weight range lift around 300kg. 

The question is, how important is maximum strength, in other words a high 1RM max? Here is where males have an advantage. If you have more repetitions females cutting down the lead. 

For example a 70kg male against a 70kg female in deadlifting. Both have an advanced strength level. The male is lifting 171kg, the female 122kg, both for one repetition. The male is stronger. But if they both choose a weight that they can lift 10 times they will choose the same weight. Female athlete do not need the same maximum strength to reach the same strength at higher repetition numbers. 

But: Weight training in the sailing sport is not at a high level. It would be better to reach a good strength level before you start an olympic campaign. But focused strength training in youth sailing is not existent at all. (Just compare it with college football). 

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You are reading far too much into Deadlift performance as a predictor of performance in context of elite dinghy sailorS.

A good deadlift performance may at best be indicative of good strength and conditioning training, ie an athlete that can sail badly for longer. A good deadlift does not make a good sailor. 

Physiology of deadlift has very little to do with hiking. At best it has some commonality with hoist in Nacra or skiff.  

I would even venture that the top guys are spending far more time worrying about how to improve their sailing rather than their 1 rep max. 

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And I think that you will find that all major nations have dedicated s&c coaching as part of overall Fitness support , as much as anything to reduce injury. 

Sailing is not the same as college football or rugby, where powerlifting exercises can be more directly relevant. 

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12 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

I would even venture that the top guys are spending far more time worrying about how to improve their sailing rather than their 1 rep max. 

Thats what I am trying to say. The benefits of a very high strength or hight of a sailor are marginal. I just tried to explain that the other way around that (as far as I know) no one in the sailing world has elite strength levels. 

A good deadlift performance may at best be indicative of good strength and conditioning training, ie an athlete that can sail badly for longer. A good deadlift does not make a good sailor. 

Physiology of deadlift has very little to do with hiking. At best it has some commonality with hoist in Nacra or skiff.  

Here I disagree. The limiting factor at a non equipped deadlift is core strength and hand strength. Both are important for sailors and for hiking. Laser sailors always told me that it is important to pusch the hiking strap up and the boat down. Basically the ability to straigthten your legs. For the lower body this is very similar to the deadlift. 

I don't see a commonality with kite hoists. Here I would choose more explosive exercises like a burpee or if available flying wheel/excentric overload exercises. 

You are reading far too much into Deadlift performance as a predictor of performance in context of elite dinghy sailorS.

I am not. I just took the deadlift because there are so many muscles involved that it is a good test for overall strength. I just wanted to say that at higher repetitions a female can produce the same strength as a stronger male. So strength can't be the (only) reason why usually the level in male classes is higher. My guess is that there is more preselection and more competition in male classes. But strength is not the most important factor! 

 

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Okay, B2S, but (1) if I recall correctly, Blackburn and others HAVE said that in some respects at least, sailors DO have "elite strength levels". For example, Bojsen-Moller et all reported in their 2014 "European Journal of Sport Science" paper that "In these studies sailors appeared to be markedly stronger in knee extension and handgrip strength compared to other elite athletes such as rowers, while elbow flexor/extensor strength levels seemed similar to observations in elite swimmers (Niinimaa et al., 1977; Plyley, Davis, & Shephard, 1985; Shephard, 1990). More recently, Aagaard et al. (1998) reported isokinetic strength profiles of elite sailors, and found very high eccentric knee extensor muscle strength and trunk extensor strength in Olympic sailors comparable to that of highly strength-trained elite athletes in explosivetype sports. A later study (Bojsen-Møller et al., 2007) supported these findings on extreme maximal knee extensor strength in hikers (Figure 2A and B) and extended these findings by also reporting dynamic hamstring/quadriceps (H/Q) strength ratios."

It appears that sailors do have elite strength levels, where it is needed.

I don't think there is any top level "power" sport in which women normally beat the men, and everything I've ever read indicates that testosterone etc gives men more muscle bulk. That indicates that women cannot compete with men, because at Olympic level even a minor strength disadvantage can be the difference between winning and losing. And how do you know that powerlifting is the best test for overall strength? What about VO2 Max, in which women normally score lower even adjusted for weight?

 

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@Curious Thank you for the studies! I find it very interesting because there are not many focusing on sailing. 

The level in mens disciplines is always higher than in women's disciplines. Even when "power" is not necessary at all. Chess, precision shooting, archery, motorsport or in sailing, the 2.4...  I would rather say its because of the fact that more men are willing to compete. Maybe because of education, roll models or the level of testosterone. Top level sport needs some sort of stupidity. Athlets destroying their body or even risking their lives just for the sake of winning something the general public doesn't even know about. How many woman racing in the TT? How many women want to join the special forces? Yes there are some but the numbers are not very high. If you have one hundert men in a specific sport the chances are higher that there is at least one "superstar". 

It seams that even if women have some physical benefits in some endurance sports, psychological effects are more important. Or how would you explain that in the Nacra class most  women are doing the harder job of crewing? Of cousrse a male crew like Jason Sounders or CP Lübeck gehts the kite up way faster than any female crew. They are stronger, the weight distribution is better, you have more options when the breeze is on and you are going single wire... So it must be better? But most teams prefer the male at the helm. Why? 

Women have a benefit when it comes to high volumes. Not maximum power, not VO2max. But high volume at low or medium intensity. Women are a little bit tougher than men. Women have higher chances of serving a big injury. And for sailing the most important thing, men are getting exhausted sooner then women, especially in isometric exercises. (I never challenge my crew at the "wall sit" again ;-) 

So it really depends on what class you are sailing in. What is the most important thing beside sailing. Maximum Power or medium power at a longer time? 

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13 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

It seams that even if women have some physical benefits in some endurance sports, psychological effects are more important. Or how would you explain that in the Nacra class most  women are doing the harder job of crewing? Of cousrse a male crew like Jason Sounders or CP Lübeck gehts the kite up way faster than any female crew. They are stronger, the weight distribution is better, you have more options when the breeze is on and you are going single wire... So it must be better? But most teams prefer the male at the helm. Why? 

Its kinda interesting that in junior sailing, girls often out perform boys, and on paper you are correct. In the N17. Gemma Jones came close with her 4th in Rio, and I think if the numbers were more even you would probably see a more even spread of girl skippers scattered through the results.

It would appear that in spite of world sailings best efforts in this area, there is still a bit of a disconnect at a more local level when it comes to support and opportunity.

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14 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

@Curious Thank you for the studies! I find it very interesting because there are not many focusing on sailing. 

The level in mens disciplines is always higher than in women's disciplines. Even when "power" is not necessary at all. Chess, precision shooting, archery, motorsport or in sailing, the 2.4...  I would rather say its because of the fact that more men are willing to compete. Maybe because of education, roll models or the level of testosterone. Top level sport needs some sort of stupidity. Athlets destroying their body or even risking their lives just for the sake of winning something the general public doesn't even know about. How many woman racing in the TT? How many women want to join the special forces? Yes there are some but the numbers are not very high. If you have one hundert men in a specific sport the chances are higher that there is at least one "superstar". 

It seams that even if women have some physical benefits in some endurance sports, psychological effects are more important. Or how would you explain that in the Nacra class most  women are doing the harder job of crewing? Of cousrse a male crew like Jason Sounders or CP Lübeck gehts the kite up way faster than any female crew. They are stronger, the weight distribution is better, you have more options when the breeze is on and you are going single wire... So it must be better? But most teams prefer the male at the helm. Why? 

Women have a benefit when it comes to high volumes. Not maximum power, not VO2max. But high volume at low or medium intensity. Women are a little bit tougher than men. Women have higher chances of serving a big injury. And for sailing the most important thing, men are getting exhausted sooner then women, especially in isometric exercises. (I never challenge my crew at the "wall sit" again ;-) 

So it really depends on what class you are sailing in. What is the most important thing beside sailing. Maximum Power or medium power at a longer time? 

Interesting discussion. How much, though, is due to the expectations and opportunities that society places on men and women?  Bill4's link has interesting examples of the way girls and boys are treated by coaches even at a young age. Even the fact that we so highly rate power, and certain types of power, can be seen as an example of society choosing to favour men over women, rather than women inherently being less "competitive" (a term which can itself be seen in different ways).  For decades, the Olympic classes favoured heavy men over women and smaller men (oddly enough, the Finn guys never raised the issue of such inequality when it favoured them) and that would in itself have led to bias against women becoming competitive.

As you say, women may have an edge in endurance sports - but we don't put those sports in the Games, therefore reducing the incentive for women. Nor do we put in boats that favour really lightweight sailors, apart perhaps from the 470 skipper.  Arguably the issue is not not that women are less competitive, but that the Games have not overcome the problem of being created in a sexist era, and by a sexist man.

In classes such as the Laser 4.7 in Europe, there are about 60% boys and 40% girls. I think it's similar in Optis.  Given those numbers, if there was no physical or social advantage to men we should probably have seen (as a matter of probability) one or two girl "superstars" who could win the worlds against the boys. I don't think we have, although I may be wrong. That seems to indicate that there are other factors involved, and I don't think anyone who studies gender and sport doubt that women are disadvantaged in many ways; for example even though gymnastics rate very highly on TV, the top female gymnasts earn dramatically less than top male Olympic athletes.

Psychological effects, in particular the sexism in our society, are probably the reason women are not driving in the Nacra (although I may well be wrong), not having less competitive drive. In fact the most competitive Olympians I have known were probably women, who stuck at it for several Games despite knowing that their chances of earning big bucks as a pro were much lower than for a man who got the same results.

It's been a good discussion but I will stick with the results of the studies I can find, which  indicate that power IS required for Olympic sailing and therefore that women ARE at a physical disadvantage in Olympic sailing. 

On 4/29/2019 at 12:52 AM, avantgardaclue said:

Here's how to hike! Nick Craig, amongst many many world, european and national titles, here sailing a D-0

Try hiking like that up a 20 minute beat! Guess that's why he's 5 times world OK champion

BrassMonkey2018-1.jpg

The fact that the Laser demands straight-leg hiking like that is one of its flaws and a reason to replace it with a newer design.

 

 

oh, hang on........   :-)   

(the Zero is a lovely boat, though)

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3 hours ago, Flags said:

Its kinda interesting that in junior sailing, girls often out perform boys, .

Unsurprising really considering generally earlier physical and mental maturation. There is going to be a window where that kicks in for a while.

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8 hours ago, Flags said:

Its kinda interesting that in junior sailing, girls often out perform boys.

It's kinda interesting that in Laser sailing, women sometimes outperform men.

1980 Laser North Americans

  1. Susan Pegel
  2. Russel Coutts
  3. Andy Pimental
  4. Svend Neilson
  5. Andy Roy
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The World Sailing Technical Evaluation Committee will release its findings tomorrow.

Should be an interesting day :)

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On 5/1/2019 at 11:20 PM, tillerman said:

It's kinda interesting that in Laser sailing, women sometimes outperform men.

1980 Laser North Americans

  1. Susan Pegel
  2. Russel Coutts
  3. Andy Pimental
  4. Svend Neilson
  5. Andy Roy

And Susie is still active, 3rd grand master at the Great Lakes champs in 2018:

 

Susie.jpg

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4 hours ago, Gantt said:

And Susie is still active, 3rd grand master at the Great Lakes champs in 2018:
 

She certainly is. She sailed one of our Laser Regattas in New England a few years ago and I had the pleasure to meet her there.

Also sails a Star.
 

StDsusie.jpg

 

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8 hours ago, WestCoast said:

The World Sailing Technical Evaluation Committee will release its findings tomorrow.

Should be an interesting day :)

Who is willing to hazard a prediction as to what the WSTEC will announce tomorrow?

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It matters little what the evaluation committee recomends. The real decision will be made later in the year. The new Laser admin fiasco almost certainly mean the Laser will lose, becasue in 2024 it will still be in court and maybe no one will legally be building boats. The olympic decision as always will be based on lobying and political deal making, so a likely ultimate decsion will be an overnight mixed gender match race using Stars.

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man, throwing out the laser would be a big mistake. even considering builder issues. it's the only class that should be the single handed racing class. period. i'd be worried about the IOC tossing sailing out of the olympics if they get rid of the laser.

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I know nothing about this stuff, but my guess is the Devoti.  Though I hope it’s the Melges.

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