bill4

New Olympic Dinghy Selection

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Just now, torrid said:

Sorry dude.  Hate to see your new class ruined.

Cry me an ocean.

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Did find this tidbit:

"*This report considers the evaluation of the Laser as presented during the invitation to tender phase with the reported three builders. The recent public announcements from ILCA regarding the status of Laser Performance has not been accounted for in the evaluation."

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12 minutes ago, torrid said:

Did find this tidbit:

"*This report considers the evaluation of the Laser as presented during the invitation to tender phase with the reported three builders. The recent public announcements from ILCA regarding the status of Laser Performance has not been accounted for in the evaluation."

Yes. There is clearly going to be a lot more discussion about whether the Laser or RS Aero is chosen for the 2024 Olympics - and the current turmoil  in Laser world may or may not be a factor. If ILCA succeed in getting new builders in place and surviving any legal challenges then I can see that the Laser might still be the choice in 2024. 

 

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Kinda surprised that the Dzero didn’t do better but happy to see the laser still hanging on

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35 minutes ago, tillerman said:

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/EQCSP4biiiMenWomenOnePersonDinghy-[24944].pdf
 

The evaluation concluded that there are two suitable items of equipment for the event:
The RS Aero equipment presented by RS Sailing and the Laser equipment presented by ILCA

 

Interesting all the way around.  The Devoti and Melges IMO are the most visually appealing boats, but they do look a lot more powerful than the LAser and Aero.

Aero seems a little "stuby" for my taste but the sailors really liked it.  

Will be interesting to see how this ultimately plays out and the final verdict.

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Also found this.  Interesting that the latest class drama started before the report became public.

"The equipment presented at the Sea Trials was used equipment from the 2018 World Sailing World Championships in Aarhus. The Class representatives described their current quality control methods and tolerances to demonstrate standardization, however the values shown represented the values obtained at only one of the current class builders.

The equipment presented at the Sea Trials was used equipment from the 2018 World Sailing World Championships in Aarhus. The Class representatives described their current quality control methods and tolerances to demonstrate standardization, however the values shown represented the values obtained at only one of the current class builders.Since 2014, ILCA has increased efforts to monitor the standardization of equipment, but the introduction of upgrades and cooperation with all builders remains a challenge. The class presented results, although compliant with their construction manuals and quality controls, the presentedtolerances were considered by the Evaluation Panel as too high. The supply of equipment for Olympic events and other major events mitigates the poor standardization, however tighter tolerances and higher controls are deemed required."

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Kinda makes you wonder how long the class has had QC issues....

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I found the report of the evaluation panel a very interesting read. My takeaway from the report is the that the Aero basically beat the Laser on its home turf: (1) Availability of (new) boats and (new) parts around the globe and (2) a production process that ensures that all boats are the same and sailing skills rather than differences in material determine regatta wins.

That was a big surprise for me.

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I'm not sure who RS Aero would enjoy better distribution or lower cost in Africa and South America than the Laser.  From what I've read, those issues have more to do with limited market and import tariffs.

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Does this mean that the Aero has replaced the Laser in the Olympics or is this just the evaluators ranking?  I don't think I saw an explicit decision in that document

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1 minute ago, Firefly-DC said:

Does this mean that the Aero has replaced the Laser in the Olympics or is this just the evaluators ranking?  I don't think I saw an explicit decision in that document

It is the report of the evaluation panel. And their conclusion was that both the RS Aero and the Laser are suitable for the event (although the Aero scored higher in the evaluation.) It does not mean that a decision has been made yet.

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I'd say that it has been down-selected, based purely on sailing performance and supply issues, to the Aero and Laser.  Melges and D-Zero are out.

I think there is another decision to be made later, which will be much more political.  That would tend to favor the Laser - if the class and the builders can get their collective shit together.  I don't think that will be possible with a completely new builder, hence LP would have to be brought back into the fold.

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Evaluation report > Events Committee

Events Committee > Recommendation to council

Council > Vote

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

It is the report of the evaluation panel. And their conclusion was that both the RS Aero and the Laser are suitable for the event (although the Aero scored higher in the evaluation.) It does not mean that a decision has been made yet.

 

8 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Evaluation report > Events Committee

Events Committee > Recommendation to council

Council > Vote

understood.  thank you for the clarification

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24 minutes ago, torrid said:

I'd say that it has been down-selected, based purely on sailing performance and supply issues, to the Aero and Laser.  Melges and D-Zero are out.

That's what I am assuming too. It's hard to see how they could select one of the two boats that scored worse than the Laser. Why would you?

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36 minutes ago, Dex Sawash said:

So, definitely D Zero or the Melges then

Since WS is involved, none of the above! 

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Kinda makes you wonder how long the class has had QC issues....

Since shortly after the beginning.  Lasers I've known except for Steve's Vanguards have been rather variable in quality.  

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Quote

4.5.1 Athletic suitability
Refers to the evaluation of the athletic suitability of the equipment considering the ergonomics and if success is more related to athletic superiority and tactical understanding than technical knowledge of the specific equipment.
For this subgroup, the presented result of the evaluation was directly obtained as the outcome of the MNA sailors score on the overall subject.

Athletic suitability
RS AERO 4.0
LASER     4.5
MELGES 2.5
D-ZERO   3.7


RS Aero
The boat was considered similar to what the MNA sailors are used to. Although considered uncomfortable initially during the downwind, the MNA sailors saw their initial comments resolved with the experienced gained throughout the week.
The light hull requiring sensitivity in boat handling, was considered by MNA sailors as rewarding higher sailing skills and tactical knowledge. The simplicity of the design and of the systems promotes success more related to athletic superiority and tactical understanding than technical knowledge of the specific equipment.


Laser
MNA sailors acknowledged their experience and familiarity with the boat and felt comfortable being able to lock the body in the cockpit and transfer the body movements to the boat.
Success is more related to athletic superiority and tactical understanding than technical knowledge of the specific equipment and the design was considered reliable and all around well suited for selection.


Melges 14
The increased width and low cockpit in combination with a low hiking strap was found uncomfortable by the MNA sailors. Sailors were clearly not used to the width of the cockpit and felt unable to “lock in”. The lack of comfort in position affected the sailors assessment of the ergonomics.


D-Zero
The strengths of the boat were dependent on the wind and sea state conditions. The reduced bow volume was found by the MNA sailors to provide insufficient buoyancy making it challenging to sail with waves and stronger winds, negatively affecting the body position and boat handling.

Three observations:-

1.Hats off to Ian Bruce and Bruce Kirby. After 50 years, the Laser was ranked 1st in both athletic suitability  and 1st in performance.  Basically the sailors said that after all these years it is still the best design by a very small ,margin over the Aero

2. The M14 and the D0 are out of it.   And probably wishing they hadnt participated given the very objective critiques of the boats.

3. Based on the Performance review (see next post), one wonders if it will be the Laser for Men and the Aero for women.

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The laser was the overall winner in terms of performance but Im guessing the Aero is sneaking into first place for women


 

Quote

 

4.5.2 Performance
Refers to the evaluation of the performance of the equipment considering all equipment items including the design of the hull, appendages, sail and running rigging. It includes considerations regarding maneuverability, responsiveness of the boat and the effectiveness of the outfitting of the systems. Suitability of the presented equipment sizes is also considered in this section.
For this subgroup, the presented result of the evaluation was directly obtained as the outcome of the MNA sailors score on the subject.

Performance
RS Aero           3.9
 Laser              4 .0
Melges 14       2.3
D-Zero             3.0

RS Aero

MNA sailors considered the hull size suitable for multiple rig sizes and perfectly suited for pathway and youth. Described as quick and aggressive in its maneuvers and easy to trim appropriately with all controls comfortably routed and efficient with simple and well thought out concepts which were appreciated by the sailors. The mainsheet system lead to the center of the boom was considered a positive feature by MNA sailors allowing for direct transmission of power to the sail. Although the rigging system offers flexibility for de-powering, the presented sail areas were considered better suited for higher crew ranges.


Laser
MNA sailors acknowledged that the design is old but performs well all-around. The rig and sails are considered the downside part of the boat and of poor quality for the associated price. In particular it is noted that for a universal event, the women’s rig promotes a larger weight and height than desirable for worldwide average women.


Melges 14
The MNA sailors considered the boat too powerful with both men’s and women’s rig. Although the sail size could be reduced to resolve the power, the hull size remains too large making the boat unsuitable for smaller rig sizes.


D Zero
With its narrow, low volume bow, the MNA sailors considered it a boat better suited for inland sailing in flat waters. The arrangement of the control lines was found to be inconveniently located with respect to the fore and aft body position required to keep the bow above the water. Although considered by the Panel as a solvable change to the outfitting, it generated much frustration among the sailors.
The MNA sailors liked the lifting rudder installation and acknowledged the effects in performance of the high-quality rig and sail design combination. The presented sail area was considered better suited for higher weight ranges.

 

 

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Well, considering the Melges is too big and heavy (we all knew that) I was a bit surprised of some use critics on the D0, which I really like. But it is anyway pretty clear that where Laser and Areo win is in the one design controls and distribution capability, which have a big impact in the matrix

Michele

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1 hour ago, Ned said:

Since shortly after the beginning.  Lasers I've known except for Steve's Vanguards have been rather variable in quality.  

Makes sense.  I'm on my 3rd vanguard hull now.  Never an issue with any of them!

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1 hour ago, 17mika said:

Well, considering the Melges is too big and heavy (we all knew that) I was a bit surprised of some use critics on the D0, which I really like. But it is anyway pretty clear that where Laser and Areo win is in the one design controls and distribution capability, which have a big impact in the matrix

Michele

I'm not familiar with the D Zero, but from the description it sounds like the boat setup is a bit more technical.  In general I'd say that is OK for an Olympic class, but they were looking for something more universal to allow more countries to participate.

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I would venture that some nylon chocks and a string traveler control, in a cost neutral application, would not be a barrier to sailing participation!

Hey ho :ph34r:!

 

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

The laser was the overall winner in terms of performance but Im guessing the Aero is sneaking into first place for women

Not unlikely, but would be very unfortunate for youth sailing - clubs would have to support both classes. Who could afford that? I hope you're wrong...

 

Also, I read the performance review in the sense that testers like the laser because they are so familiar with it... it's not the speed they're talking about. With my Aero, I sail around Lasers in circles, and that's definitely not due to my sailing skills.

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Well Done RS Aero ....   Not my sort of boat but it is a brilliant product overall and by far the best being considered (and yes I have sailed/raced three of them!)

 

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11 hours ago, torrid said:

Did find this tidbit:

"*This report considers the evaluation of the Laser as presented during the invitation to tender phase with the reported three builders. The recent public announcements from ILCA regarding the status of Laser Performance has not been accounted for in the evaluation."

Yep, but throughout the report they refer to the general issues with LP, reduce the scores because of it, and yet the boat still comes out quite well.

The surprise for me was the low score and low price of the DZero, which looks to be a lovely boat.

One thing that it was very good to see them pick up on was the longer-term use of the sails and boats, when they referred to the fact that while dacron sails lose their competitive edge, the old sails (like old Laser hulls) remain useful in developing countries and club fleets. It's good to see that recognised. My own SMODs range from dacron, to mylar, to string composite sails and while the more "exotic" sails may last longer at top level, the amazing durability of dacron sails is great when it comes to allowing beginners to get into the sport cheaply.

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11 minutes ago, Curious said:

 

The surprise for me was the low score and low price of the DZero, which looks to be a lovely boat.

I have sailed a D-Zero and it is a lovely, solid boat. I am surprised it scored worse on the evaluation than the Laser. If I lived in the UK and had not already bought an RS Aero, I can easily see that I might have bought a D-Zero to replace my Laser.

I was surprised too at the low price for the D-Zero quoted in the evaluation report  - 4,448 GBP.

The UK dealer's website has quite a different number. I wonder what the reason is for the difference?

Screen Shot 2019-05-03 at 7.55.30 PM.png

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I am actually surprised the Laser fared as well as it did. I have not sailed nor seen the others, but I have certainly followed their launch and development closely. A couple BOTY winners and a sexy newcomer sure look good on paper/in video and the rave reviews for all are quite impressive. Plus, with 45 years of technology and lessons learned from the Laser, that's a pretty good place to have as a starting point. The newbies should be way better. I guess the Laser maybe doesn't deserve the shit that has been slung in its direction for far too long. At least based on the judgment of highly qualified, younger sailors with no axe to grind. (Plus a number of old farts in this thread...)

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9 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I guess the Laser maybe doesn't deserve the shit that has been slung in its direction for far too long

bingo

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I can't understand how the Laser scored highest for performance, when the accompanying text doesn't seem to support that. 

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Is it just that the evaluation scores come largely from the sailors, whereas the report is written by the evaluation panel? They state "On the final morning, the panel submitted one last round of questions for open feedback from the sailors to confirm that the panel conclusions were as expected by the MNA sailors" so there seem to have been safeguards in place to ensure that the sailors agreed with the panel. The report can be read as indicating that the MNA sailors liked the way the Laser responded to their expert handling

If WS were involved in trying to fix the report to favour the Laser they could probably have just pushed it miles higher up on the "universality" score, based on the huge existing fleet, and it would have been hard to argue with them about it. 

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It's funny when I read about how popular the RS Aero is in the UK. I sail all year round on the River Blackwater, a very popular place to sail on the East coast of England. There are 5 or 6 clubs using the river & yet I've never seen an Aero!

As for the D-Zero, we had one at our club for a year but it was useless in the chop on a windy day. It would just seem stop & pitch back & forth on a beat, whereas the Laser just powers through. If the wind was +f5 I could easily beat the Zero heading up wind & that was me using a Radial rig in a 146*** hull! As soon as we rounded the windward mark he would shot past me on the reach, until the next beat. He could never get close to me on handicap & so changed class back to a Finn.

I have a friend who sailed a D-Zero for a season & has now come back to Lasers as he says it's a better boat to sail on our patch of water & he was a D-Zero dealer at the time! Go figure.

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This is now a 2 horse race between the Laser (or whatever it is called in 6 months time) and the RS Aero.

It is closer than the summary percentage score suggests.

In essence when one analyzes what affected the scores between the two boats:

1. The Laser is the  winner in terms of hull design .  50 years after it was designed, top level sailors still like the way that they can "lock in" to the boat and transfer body movements to the boat.

2.  The Rig and sail were a downside for the Laser lowering its performance score (where it still won overall), lowering its appeal score and representing poor value.

3.  The Aero was the winner in a number of categories (Universality, standardization of equipment, quality of production, Manufacturers, Sustainability, ) which basically all related to the fact that the RS organization is a better organized and more reliable supplier than the three companies manufacturing Lasers. 

Based on sailing qualities and design alone, it is a dead heat (with the Laser possibly even slightly ahead).  If the Laser resolved on a new rig and sail, in a decisive manner it would ve an even stronger contender (again an organizational weakness).   However outside of the sailing considerations, the superior management team running RS win all the logistical considerations.

It is interesting that class management was not appraised by the evaluation process. AFAIK, the aero does not have an independent class association and the same depth of grass roots support and sailor promotion that a young Laser sailor will receive. Despite the ups and downs and the tribulations of the Laser class in builder relations, the Class Association and its network of local volunteers is a strong attraction to anyone buying a single handed dinghy. There is a lot of Laser racing!

When the Aero is selected, the two large Laser builders and their internecine warfare over the last 10 years deserve a lot of the blame.

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I'm wondering if the Aero ranking isn't partly a warning shot to the Laser/TBD class to get well clear of the current conflicts and intrigue lest they become yet another former Olympic class done in by "conflicting interests" and ever increasing costs required to compete in the remarkably simple boat.   

And let's see some tabulated measurement data to show exactly how non-uniform the Laser/TBD has been over time and say the past few years.  Hull weights, equipment locations, rake, rig deflections, that sort of thing.  

 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

The absolute only reason there was or is a contest to find the best option for singlehanded sailing contests is the Laser Builder and Laser Association have not acted as an effective team in over a decade. 

Absolutely not. There had to be a contest for Euro competition law. But the strife is the reason why the laser didn't win easily.

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No, the game is singlehanded sailing.  Laser is one toy you can use to play it with,  but it’s old and tired and no one likes the toy maker.  

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26 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

it’s old and tired and no one likes the toy maker.

it's absolutely not old or tired. everyone at the equipment test disagreed with that statement. they rated it the highest! why is everyone so negative about the boat? if you don't like it, sail something else. don't shit on everyone who enjoys it with this stupid narrative. why not be supportive of sailing, and classes that people enjoy sailing? the manufacturer issues are another story, and they deserve flak if they aren't properly supporting sailors. but cmon man don't shit on a boat that people enjoy sailing.

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Sorry, I was taking the piss! But actually, it is old and the rig was criticised.  

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On 5/3/2019 at 10:06 AM, RobbieB said:

Kinda makes you wonder how long the class has had QC issues....

There have been good boats and bad boats going back to at least the early 80’s. 

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18 hours ago, Martin T said:

It's funny when I read about how popular the RS Aero is in the UK. I sail all year round on the River Blackwater, a very popular place to sail on the East coast of England. There are 5 or 6 clubs using the river & yet I've never seen an Aero!

Am moving back to West Mersea and Dabchicks SC in November so you will see my Aero #2542 a lot, plus am doing the Round the Island race in Aug. :-)

 

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12 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Nonsense. Did they have a contest among shotguns, rifles, bows and AEROs, and crossbows firvtge biathalon?

didvthey have a contest among pommel, hobby, and quarter horses for gymnastics? 

Laser racing is s game played  in the Olympics. The organizers are deciding whether to switch to a different game  

Is there a single monopoly supplier for those things in the EU area? The rules have changed in the EU area and AIUI in those areas there can no longer be a single monopoly supplier without the selection being revisited at regular intervals.

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48 minutes ago, ttc546 said:

Am moving back to West Mersea and Dabchicks SC in November so you will see my Aero #2542 a lot, plus am doing the Round the Island race in Aug. :-)

 

Welcome back to the East coast. I sail at Harlow Blackwater SC, so the other end of the river for me. I've always wanted to do the Island race but never got round to it. At least the Aero is nice & light to carry over the bridge! Have fun, that's what it's all about.

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Does anybody have any experience with the Aero 5 vs Radial. Based on sail area the 7 is like a standard and the 9 is like a Melges. 

Laser 4.7 are slow and the boom is really low. The sail is seriously mismatched to the hull weight as well. 

4.7 and the 5.2 Aero are not equivalents. 

I haven’t sailed an Aero yet. It sounds like the Aero really needs a 6m rig to be a really good setup for the women.

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1 hour ago, CaptainAhab said:

Does anybody have any experience with the Aero 5 vs Radial. Based on sail area the 7 is like a standard and the 9 is like a Melges. 

Laser 4.7 are slow and the boom is really low. The sail is seriously mismatched to the hull weight as well. 

4.7 and the 5.2 Aero are not equivalents. 

I haven’t sailed an Aero yet. It sounds like the Aero really needs a 6m rig to be a really good setup for the women.

Based on RYA Portsmouth Yardsticks, the RS Aero 5 is slightly faster than a Laser Radial.

RS Aero 5 - 1136
Laser Radial - 1145
Laser 4.7 - 1207

I did hear that a different sized rig was a possibility for the women's Olympic RS Aero but that  WS asked for the Trials boats to be production models.

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1 hour ago, CaptainAhab said:

Does anybody have any experience with the Aero 5 vs Radial. Based on sail area the 7 is like a standard and the 9 is like a Melges. 

Laser 4.7 are slow and the boom is really low. The sail is seriously mismatched to the hull weight as well. 

4.7 and the 5.2 Aero are not equivalents. 

I haven’t sailed an Aero yet. It sounds like the Aero really needs a 6m rig to be a really good setup for the women.

 

5 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Based on RYA Portsmouth Yardsticks, the RS Aero 5 is slightly faster than a Laser Radial.

RS Aero 5 - 1136
Laser Radial - 1145
Laser 4.7 - 1207

I did hear that a different sized rig was a possibility for the women's Olympic RS Aero but that  WS asked for the Trials boats to be production models.

How have you quantified the sail area is “seriously mismatched” to hull weight ?

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I'm pretty familiar with both. The Aero 5 is a small sail, but it does appear reasonably in balance, but the 4.7 is just all out of proportion.

 

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18 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

I haven’t sailed an Aero yet. It sounds like the Aero really needs a 6m rig to be a really good setup for the women.

I know a number of woman sailors happily sailing the Aero 5 and some men also prefer it in big breeze. Nothing wrong with the 5 rig.

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19 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

Does anybody have any experience with the Aero 5 vs Radial. Based on sail area the 7 is like a standard and the 9 is like a Melges. 

Laser 4.7 are slow and the boom is really low. The sail is seriously mismatched to the hull weight as well. 

4.7 and the 5.2 Aero are not equivalents. 

I haven’t sailed an Aero yet. It sounds like the Aero really needs a 6m rig to be a really good setup for the women.

On the other hand, the huge popularity of the 4.7 in Europe and the significant popularity in places like Australia could give one pause to think that it actually works pretty well, for what it is. As an interim class that allows kids to move on up in a time when they are growing quickly it seems to do a good job. What are the alternatives? Create fleets of other boats out of thin air and work out a way for parents to buy into the class and then out of it within a couple of years, without doing their dough?  

The hull weight/sail area ratio of the 4.7 is about 12kg of hull per square metre of sail. That's lower than that of the Sabot, similar to the Pico, and 20% higher than that of boats like the Radial, Topper small rig, RS Tera, O'Pen, Opti, Comet Mino etc which seem to all be about 10kg per square metre. The 505 and Contender, for comparison, are around 7.7 kg/sq metre and the Finn is around 10kg/square metre. 

It's a small rig, but on the other hand the length of the boat means it's got a low DLR with a kid aboard, so the boat is faster and more stable than the alternatives with similar sail area. Perhaps it's just a case of swings and roundabouts?  The only time I've sailed a 4.7 I was quite surprised by how nice it felt, and I can see why some lighter adults like it. 

The odd thing is that apart from the UK with the Topper and NZ with the Starling, most countries have ended up with a big gap between the Optimist and the Europe, Radial etc, and no one seemed to be really interested in filling the gap until the 4.7 came along.  Would sailing be in a better place if kids who wanted to sail singlehanders had been left with nowhere to go between a Sabot/Opti/Bic and a Radial or Europe?  Will sailing be in a better place if thousands of parents have to find $14000 or whatever to switch their kids into Aeros?  Is it maybe better to support what we have instead of complaining about it?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@Curious sure is making a statement. It certainly questions the sanity of telling the only supplier of the most successful fleets in the only  region where the 4.7 game is actually prospering to go away. 

Was that deliberate or ???

 

You bet your sweet furry Easter bunny ass it's deliberate. ILCA actually stands for Illuminatii's Legion of Class Assassins. Tracy Usher, Andy Roy and their minions have been spending years as sleeper agents in the pay of RS. You don't think they'd actually do the work they do and take the shit they take if they weren't being paid, do you?

Now that you have discovered our secret, our highly training hitman is going to have to take you out.

Sadly, it looks as if we have blown our mission. The 4.7 is not just popular in Europe; it is also doing well in Australia and Asia amongst other places. Killing the class off so that everyone buys Aero 5s is going to be harder than we thought. Curses!

 

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On 5/5/2019 at 5:45 PM, CaptainAhab said:

Laser 4.7 are slow and the boom is really low. The sail is seriously mismatched to the hull weight as well. 

 

I think you may have fallen on your harpoon Captain !

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55 minutes ago, Curious said:

You bet your sweet furry Easter bunny ass it's deliberate. ILCA actually stands for Illuminatii's Legion of Class Assassins. Tracy Usher, Andy Roy and their minions have been spending years as sleeper agents in the pay of RS. You don't think they'd actually do the work they do and take the shit they take if they weren't being paid, do you?

Now that you have discovered our secret, our highly training hitman is going to have to take you out.

Sadly, it looks as if we have blown our mission. The 4.7 is not just popular in Europe; it is also doing well in Australia and Asia amongst other places. Killing the class off so that everyone buys Aero 5s is going to be harder than we thought. Curses!

 

LOL

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 8:20 PM, frostbit said:

There have been good boats and bad boats going back to at least the early 80’s. 

You're right.  Thanks for the reminder.  I remember some deck delamination issues in the late 80's.  The builder did replace those hulls.  I think it was the US builder at the time.  

What have been the others along the way? 

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Edited to remove the attempted misdirections of our attention 

You are the one cheerleading as the 4.7 fleet is being attacked. The others you mention are from a region where the 4.7 fleet has never really begun working and where the supply of toys by the builder has been so pathetic for the last decade, going to a no supplier situation essentially changes nothing. 

Why do you hate all those European kids who are of the right size to sail 4.7 in 2019? 

 

Gouv, that's a stupid post. It's utterly ridiculous of you to allege that I'm not supportive of a class I defended just a couple of posts ago. No one who did not support the 4.7 would have written post 662.  And it's rubbish to claim that Asia and Oceania are regions when the 4.7 "has never really begun working", if that's what you mean. The 4.7 is about 11th biggest class in Australia and one of the fastest growing; that is clearly working.

I'm not "cheerleading" anything. I've just been saying that we should not insult volunteers just because of one-sided allegations. If the supply of toys in the places you mention then it's understandable that ILCA is trying to do something.

 

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Which one of my posts attacked a volunteer for the work they carried out for the class?

Responding to attacks is also quite different to starting attacks, surely?  Your post 663 seemed to be throwing up the idea that ILCA's actions were deliberate and/or insane. Given those accusations, chucking up a very tongue-in-cheek post about Elmer Fudd was a very mild response. If you're going to throw stuff surely you must expect return fire.

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What on earth has a discussion on the Laser 4.7 got to do with "New Olympic Dinghy Selection"?

And there's a variety of other threads in which you can discuss the ILCA.

 

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World Sailing Mid Year Meetings are next week (May 17-19)

 

My understanding is there will be a vote by the actual selection committee at that meeting.
It is unknown how many will go with the winner of the Equipment Evaluation report, or vote their own way for whatever reasons they wish.
That part is the murky politics I just don’t have a grasp on.

I *believe* even a mid year vote needs to be ratified/confirmed at the WS annual meeting in November.  
But, I’ve heard conflicting reports on that.

So, we will know a lot more end of next week - but maybe not the final final answer for a few more months.

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there's a lot of deleting going on in this thread!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

there's a lot of deleting going on in this thread!

 

 

 

It’s a Gouv thing I have never understood.

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On 5/7/2019 at 2:26 AM, dogwatch said:

What on earth has a discussion on the Laser 4.7 got to do with "New Olympic Dinghy Selection"?

And there's a variety of other threads in which you can discuss the ILCA.

 

Agree... sorry. I got rid of my contribution 

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On 5/6/2019 at 8:53 AM, RobbieB said:

You're right.  Thanks for the reminder.  I remember some deck delamination issues in the late 80's.  The builder did replace those hulls.  I think it was the US builder at the time.  

What have been the others along the way? 

Inconsistent build quality has meant stiff boats and twisty boats,  you can feel the difference within a minute of sailing one or the other. Major build problems (as you describe in US builder) happened in at least 80s... From personal experience. 

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On 11/3/2018 at 7:11 PM, nieptun said:

You are right that Aero builders could take advantage of many years of experience from Laser, but I am not sure they did that.

The main problem of Olympic dinghy boats is price. Is Aero cheaper than Laser?

Unfortunately, Aero is much more expensive than Laser!

Second problem is longevity.

Which indication says everything about AEROs lasts longer than Lasers? :)

Aero and Laser have a few constructional problems, first example is mast post tube (it is one of the first damages on this type of boats)

Unfortunately, Laser has much better mast post tube than Aero.

You are an expert if you notice the beginning signs of flexiness after one year into ownership of a Laser (Could you explain how you feel that? It is very interesting and I not say that it is impossible)

I wait for your reports but after a few months of sailing on Aero what do you think about main halyard, abrasive sand on the deck and about location of control lines on the deck (cunningham and outhaul)?

I still can’t feel anything different from day one in the AERO hull. I have sailed about as much as I used to sail a  Laser in six months. 

The Sail is no longer crispy but it doesn’t seem to be blown out. I would like to have a new sail to use if hit a big regatta but I am still Trying to figure out what set up is fast. I think I wouid be wasting a new sail if I got one now. 

I do not understand your mast step complaints. I think your statement about the  mast step being a weak spot on either boat  is absolute nonsense.

Do you have some support for that comment or did you simply make it up? 

I am not in love with the control lines but they work. 

I think the non skid is way too rough and I would not have built it that way. 

I haven’t grabbed some sandpaper and fixed it yet ( key word is yet) 

 

How do I feel fiex in a Laser?? The hull

inverts on certain waves and does so a little more easily after every time it flexes. On a new boat the flexing is rare or doesn’t happen  except on the nastiest of chop and only relatively big breeze. 

The flexing increases in frequency as the boat ages and happens on smaller and smaller waves as the boat ages. 

I know what it feels like and I notice  

 

 

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58 minutes ago, VWAP said:

My analysis of this analysis of the analysis is that this analysis of the analysis is flawed because it asserts that the question of righting boats after capsize is not analyzed in the analysis.

Anyone who had read the analysis would know that the analysis does analyze the question of righting boats after capsize... on page 15.

 

 

Quote

 

RS Aero

The boat was described as fun, fast and appealing on land and in the water. Fitness and strength rewarded. The boat is light and easy to move around on land for launch and for transport. Easily righted after capsizing. Although the sails design is modern with a large head and full top battens, the Dacron material results in a less modern appearance.

 

Laser

The design looks dated compared to rest of the trialed equipment. Fitness and strength rewarded. The boat is heavy and requires more strength to move around and transport. The capsize recovery is not a problem for elite sailors but there are known problems in the youth pathway.
 

Melges 14

Visually appealing on land and in the water. Fitness and strength rewarded. The boat is not much lighter than current equipment and is long and wide for transport. Smaller women commented on capsize recovery difficulty with wide hull which would potentially be an issue in the youth pathway.
 


D-Zero

Visually appealing for media coverage on land and in the water. Fitness and strength rewarded. Sailors negative comments on bow submergence. Coaches comment on lack of hand hold with no gunwale affecting recovery after capsizing and boat handling afloat.
 

 

 

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All i can say is WOW!..............

 

 

6000 Pounds for a new Aero.

 

Your lucky you don’t  live in New Zealand, where they sell for 9000 pounds........yeah you read correctly (daylight robbery from Hayden the importer)

 

 

Oh and another thing, that report is utter BS,  Mackay Boats have no intention of building Melges 14’s. I called them and was told they’re not interested. At the time of that call, they were aware of a container load arriving into Australia. But none were being on sent to New Zealand. The Aero sells for $4000NZD more than a Laser.

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1 hour ago, Pung boy said:

The Aero sells for $4000NZD more than a Laser.

That is crazy, in Aus for a like-for-like spec, the aero is only $225AUD more than a laser

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A bit more than £6k for an aero here in the UK, more like £8k with only the basics added! 

 

Who knows what a laser costs in the UK now though... :D

Capture.PNG

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People pay list price?

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2 hours ago, Fatboi said:

A bit more than £6k for an aero here in the UK, more like £8k with only the basics added! 

 

Who knows what a laser costs in the UK now though... :D

Capture.PNG

Ticks carbon tiller extension over the foil bags... what a boat tart! :D

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3 hours ago, VWAP said:

Nothing new there, but interesting for the attitudes it displays. You'd think, for instance, it would be obvious why an 8 year life cycle is better than a 5 year one, but clearly its not.

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On 5/7/2019 at 5:26 PM, dogwatch said:

What on earth has a discussion on the Laser 4.7 got to do with "New Olympic Dinghy Selection"?

And there's a variety of other threads in which you can discuss the ILCA.

 

It's very relevant, because the 4.7 is an extremely popular and effective feeder for the current Olympic classes that the Aero cannot offer. The 5 does not fill the same role as there are only a few hundred of them on the entire globe.

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9 hours ago, VWAP said:

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/articles/item/sailing-into-choppy-waters-world-sailing-under-the-competition-law-microscope

 

Sailing into choppy waters? World Sailing under the competition law microscope

There are some very weak points in that article. For example the claim "Olympic sports (like cycling) allow competitors to choose or make their own equipment, and yet those sports remain competitive8 is absolutely wrong. The UCI rules for road, time trial and track (ie the vast majority of Olympic events) require that "all new frames and forks used by licence holders in road, track and cyclo-cross events must be approved...".  The approval process costs about $12000 USD for a frame design and restricts design "progress:"  The UCI rules state that " no technical innovation regarding anything used, worn or carried by any rider or license holder during a competition (bicycles, equipment mounted on them, accessories, helmets, clothing, means of communication, etc.) may be used until approved by the UCI executive bureau"

The article is also completely wrong in claiming that anyone to "make their own equipment" for Olympic road and track events. The UCI states that " The new model must be available on market at the time of its use in events".  The British made a mockery of this at the 2012 Games by putting their bikes "on the market" for over 100,000 pounds and with an unspecified delivery date, but I think rules have been tightened.

Cycling, which the authors themselves use as a reference, does NOT agree (in theory at least) with the author's claim that sport is about equipment development. The UCI rules state the opposite intent; "Bicycles shall comply with the spirit and principle of cycling as a sport. The spirit presupposes that cyclists will compete in competitions on an equal footing. The principle asserts the primacy of man over machine."  The UCI has also said that "the real meaning of cycle sport is to bring riders together to compete on an equal footing and thereby decide which of them is physically the best.’"

Finally, the claim that cycling's equipment rules allowed the sport to be "competitive" are dubious, if they mean that a wide range of nations is competitive. Cycling is even more dominated by rich western countries than sailing is.

It's a bit bloody annoying in some ways that a domestic EU law is affecting people outside Europe so much. It's also annoying that EurILCA seems to be happy when Europeans impose rules that affect the sailors of other countries, but then get upset when ILCA does things that affect Europeans. In one of the other classes I've raced, the rules imposed by WS make it impractical for sailors in smaller countries outside Europe to build their own kit. We've asked the world body for exemption and it's been denied. Sometimes it seems as if the Euros are paying little heed to sailors outside the Continent, just like their lawmakers. It's almost enough to make one understand Brexit.

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

It's almost enough to make one understand Brexit.

Hmm. LPExit has a nice ring to it. The inverse of Brexit, but what the hell.

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7 hours ago, Curious said:

There are some very weak points in that article.

Indeed there are, but it does indicate the sorts of problems that World Sailing will have getting their points over to regulators who don't know anything about Olympic level sailing.

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I’m not sure why a law that says there periodically needs to be some structured and transparent equipment selection process for the Olympics is such an awful thing.

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On 5/2/2019 at 11:27 PM, IPLore said:

Its an incredible testament to the Laser!   What a lifelong gift this class has given to a generation of sailors.

Andy.....is Svend still sailing? 

Just noticed your question from a week or so ago. I don't think he is still sailing. I have some good stories I could tell about Svend!

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10 hours ago, Curious said:

It's very relevant, because the 4.7 is an extremely popular and effective feeder for the current Olympic classes that the Aero cannot offer. 

No reason it cannot continue to be. Feeder classes should not govern the Olympic class.

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16 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

No reason it cannot continue to be. Feeder classes should not govern the Olympic class.

If the RS Aero does replace the Laser as the singlehanded Olympic class, I imagine that a lot of youth and juniors will continue to sail the various flavors of Laser and will transition to the RS Aero as and when they became serious candidates for the 2024 Olympics (and beyond.) Over time some of those feeder programs will probably change to the RS Aero 5 but that doesn't have to happen overnight.

RS Sailing have published the outlines of a transition plan. https://www.rssailing.com/transition-plan-current-equipment-to-rs-aero/


 

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Most of the current Olympic classes have a feeder class, so plenty of people seem to believe it works pretty well. The Transition Plan calls for the Aero to become the Youth class.  Does that not mean that many serious clubs will then have a "legacy" fleet of Lasers and a new fleet of Aeros, each possibly splitting the pool of sailors so that neither has critical mass?  Are people assuming that the Aero will gain widespread critical mass when the 49er, Nacra 17, Yngling, Elliott and Europe often failed, and the Laser suffers for numbers in the age group where Olympic aspirants are to be found?

Sailing scores poorly on the IOC's important "universality" measure. Will it help the sport if smaller and developing nations have to develop entire new fleets? Will it help sailing in Croatia, Singapore and India if they feel that they have to dump the Laser and find the money for Aeros? I just checked the national

authority sites for those three countries at random. They clearly aim to foster Olympic and feeder classes, specifically the SMODs and mainly the Laser, 470 and RSX. They do not foster alternative classes; Singapore appears to have dumped the Byte CII they once favoured, despite its supposedly superior rig.

Do we assume that they are morons for fostering the Olympic classes? One would hope not; that would be monstrously arrogant. Clearly they foster those Olympic classes because they believe it works for them. So if we change the most popular of Olympic classes, those countries are either going to have to junk a formula that works for them, or somehow persuade almost all their singlehanded racers to buy new boats and junk their old ones. That will cost vast sums - a major problem for countries that may not be rich and even if rich as in Singapore's case, suffer from the problem that sailing is seen as a sport for the rich.

It seems that there could be a strong scent of the rich and powerful sailing nations deciding to ignore the interests of the less developed sailing nations when deciding Olympic classes, and in particular a change in the most popular of them.  If Olympic sailing ignores such countries, why should they not ignore Olympic sailing and vote to dump the sport from the Games?  Is such a change worth it when no one has even shown that the non-sailor will give a stuff about seeing a newer boat on the TV?  Are we going to screw over the emerging nations and perhaps stuff up their support for Olympic sailing, all so sailors can finish a typical race 2.5% faster and with slightly less weight on their tiller arm?

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18 minutes ago, Curious said:

...Are people assuming that the Aero will gain widespread critical mass when the 49er, Nacra 17, Yngling, Elliott and Europe often failed, and the Laser suffers for numbers in the age group where Olympic aspirants are to be found?...

...It If Olympic sailing ignores such countries, why should they not ignore Olympic sailing and vote to dump the sport from the Games?  ...

All good stuff! A couple comments:

- Add "Tempest" to the first line.

- One wonders what the impact would be on dinghy racing as a sport globally if it were dropped from the Olympics. I would suggest marginal to none.

 

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Meanwhile, in the other nail-biting and controversial dinghy selection, i.e. the two human dinghy, the 470 has maintained Olympic status. 

"World Sailing received tenders from the Melges 15, a concept design from Melges Boat Works, and from the 470 Class Association.
Melges Boat Works withdrew their application resulting in the 470 Class as the sole tenderer.
Having found the 470 Class tender compliant with all requirements, the Evaluation Panel will recommend to the Equipment Committee that the 470 is selected as the Mixed Two Person Dinghy Equipment subject to the Class Association agreeing to updates to the Olympic Classes Contract for 2024."

So a boat older than the Laser survives. 

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

Most of the current Olympic classes have a feeder class, so plenty of people seem to believe it works pretty well. The Transition Plan calls for the Aero to become the Youth class.  Does that not mean that many serious clubs will then have a "legacy" fleet of Lasers and a new fleet of Aeros, each possibly splitting the pool of sailors so that neither has critical mass?  Are people assuming that the Aero will gain widespread critical mass when the 49er, Nacra 17, Yngling, Elliott and Europe often failed, and the Laser suffers for numbers in the age group where Olympic aspirants are to be found?

Sailing scores poorly on the IOC's important "universality" measure. Will it help the sport if smaller and developing nations have to develop entire new fleets? Will it help sailing in Croatia, Singapore and India if they feel that they have to dump the Laser and find the money for Aeros? I just checked the national

authority sites for those three countries at random. They clearly aim to foster Olympic and feeder classes, specifically the SMODs and mainly the Laser, 470 and RSX. They do not foster alternative classes; Singapore appears to have dumped the Byte CII they once favoured, despite its supposedly superior rig.

Do we assume that they are morons for fostering the Olympic classes? One would hope not; that would be monstrously arrogant. Clearly they foster those Olympic classes because they believe it works for them. So if we change the most popular of Olympic classes, those countries are either going to have to junk a formula that works for them, or somehow persuade almost all their singlehanded racers to buy new boats and junk their old ones. That will cost vast sums - a major problem for countries that may not be rich and even if rich as in Singapore's case, suffer from the problem that sailing is seen as a sport for the rich.

It seems that there could be a strong scent of the rich and powerful sailing nations deciding to ignore the interests of the less developed sailing nations when deciding Olympic classes, and in particular a change in the most popular of them.  If Olympic sailing ignores such countries, why should they not ignore Olympic sailing and vote to dump the sport from the Games?  Is such a change worth it when no one has even shown that the non-sailor will give a stuff about seeing a newer boat on the TV?  Are we going to screw over the emerging nations and perhaps stuff up their support for Olympic sailing, all so sailors can finish a typical race 2.5% faster and with slightly less weight on their tiller arm?

Good points Curious.

I would expect that RS Sailing is planning on special programs targeted at nations with limited resources and smaller sailing programs to address the very valid issues that you raise.

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