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New Olympic Dinghy Selection

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4 hours ago, Pung boy said:

this is the bare minimum price for an Aero?

No, deals can be done, significant deals, especially for bulk purchases or fleet building. I'm not going into detail but I know this for a fact.

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15 hours ago, Curious said:

The Transition Plan calls for the Aero to become the Youth class. 

Well, RS Sailing would say that,  obviously. It doesn't mean clubs or MNAs have to follow that plan.

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Ok, but if they DON'T follow that plan then the Aero is unlikely to become a strong, widely popular class. That means there will be no "universal" Olympic class. The other major issue is that if the Aero does not become the Youth class, then nations must run two (or three) separate singlehander programs - the Laser Radial for youth and the Aero women and men's class. That's not going to be very efficient. And for what? If the Laser class was doing as badly as many other sections of our sport then a change could be worthwhile, but the fact is that the Laser is doing quite well and other sectors of the sport are doing much worse. Why attack the class that is arguably the sport's top success story instead of trying to fix the sectors that are not doing as well?

 

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In Australia back in 2015 there was a discount for junior fleets of $2K AUD per boat, looks like it's just $1K AUD at the moment: http://www.sailingraceboats.com.au/junior-sailing-sponsorship.html

They also had charter fleet deals to make it easier for clubs to build numbers, last I looked it was $4500 AUD for 12 months for a brand new boat including top cover, foil covers, beach trolley, insurance and class membership, then if you want to keep the boat after 12 months they deduct $4K from the normal purchase price and you pay the difference

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

 Why attack the class that is arguably the sport's top success story instead of trying to fix the sectors that are not doing as well?

Because they haven't got any choice. They have to put the Olympic selection up for re-evaluation, and the re-evaluation has to be genuine, not fixed.

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

 but the fact is that the Laser is doing quite well 

Seriously? If you were WS you'd put all your eggs into a basket that's being picked over by the lawyers?

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21 minutes ago, JimC said:

Because they haven't got any choice. They have to put the Olympic selection up for re-evaluation, and the re-evaluation has to be genuine, not fixed.

/\  That comment wasn't aimed at WS, but more at the people on the web who are cheering on the Laser's demise. You appear to be correct about WS having to be seen to be doing the right thing, although perhaps they also could have argued that there was no viable alternative to the Laser given the Laser's enormous spread, even before it became Olympic. In their shoes, though, I'd probably have taken their course since I think we can be fairly sure that the nations of the world will consider the outcome of the evaluation trials and then vote against replacing so many of their fleet at about $8000 US a pop, even for those who get special deals.

I wonder if those who created the EU's competition laws had any idea of the sort of issues they were creating for the rest of the world. 

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2 hours ago, JMP said:

In Australia back in 2015 there was a discount for junior fleets of $2K AUD per boat, looks like it's just $1K AUD at the moment: http://www.sailingraceboats.com.au/junior-sailing-sponsorship.html

They also had charter fleet deals to make it easier for clubs to build numbers, last I looked it was $4500 AUD for 12 months for a brand new boat including top cover, foil covers, beach trolley, insurance and class membership, then if you want to keep the boat after 12 months they deduct $4K from the normal purchase price and you pay the difference

That’s actually a really good idea. At least your not paying $16,500AUD for them. And you get free covers, beach trolley, foil covers.....wow!

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16 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Seriously? If you were WS you'd put all your eggs into a basket that's being picked over by the lawyers?

And if you were WS you'd seriously tell the many developing sailing nations who have the Laser as their main Olympic class and don't have tons of cash "some of us want a new toy so you all have to buy a new toy too"?  The lawyers seem to only be affecting LP areas, and there is a world outside where LP operates.  The countries outside LP's areas can have as many new eggs as they want. The countries inside LP areas still have fleets of existing Lasers and if they want new ones they can import them privately or allow LP Lasers to race in local events. Doing that will be a vastly easier and less expensive exercise than creating entirely new fleets of Aeros and possibly still having to run Youth fleets of Lasers.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Curious said:

 The countries outside LP's areas......

So outside the world's two major economic blocks.

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Yes - but those countries may well be vital to sailing maintaining its Olympic spot. The Olympic Programme Commission requires sports to have reasonable international support, as measured (I believe) by the number of countries entering qualifying events and their geographic spread. The Laser is the strongest class in terms of widespread support.  Sailing already struggles to get support from areas such as Africa. If developing sailing nations treat the Aero as they treat 49ers, Nacras etc then they may not attend qualifying events and sailing will lose out on an area that the IOC sees as vital.

Even in LP territories, it's a choice between supporting the biggest class in the sport, and supporting one which will require many athletes to go out and buy expensive new equipment. Unless you want fleet numbers at Olympic qualifying events to dive, you are going to force something like 1100 currently ranked sailors to go out and buy Aeros. That's millions of dollars of extra expense being imposed on ranked sailors, even ignoring the ones who are in feeder type events. That's also ignoring the youth sailors who will also have to change boats if we are not going to have to run two programmes.

Why force EVERY Olympic aspirant (and possibly every Youth Worlds aspirant) to buy a new boat merely because SOME of them may have to order their new boats on the internet, just as many of them already do in other classes? Sailing is already seen as an elitist sport - why prove that to be true by forcing all Olympians to get new boats?

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32 minutes ago, Curious said:

If developing sailing nations treat the Aero as they treat 49ers, Nacras etc then they may not attend qualifying events and sailing will lose out on an area that the IOC sees as vital.

Big if. You are comparing technical, difficult and expensive boats with one that is so simple even I can sail it and of comparable cost to the incumbent class.

Your assumption is also that all Olympic aspirants and youth already own or have access to a Laser. That isn't the case.

Were it not for the LP/ILCA shit-storm, I don't think there is much doubt the Laser would have remained the Olympic class. Self-destructive behaviour by LP has opened the question.

 

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The report specifically excludes the latest ***storm, but its clear that the Laser was marked down for persistent supply problems and poor manufacturing consistence. I spotted what I believe to be one error in the report there: it states "a long history of variations among different builders which has led to the supply of equipment at major events.",  but my recollection is that equipment was supplied at the first Worlds, and it was always the plan to do that. It wasn't a response to variations. Having said that, I also recall, from those very early days. Performance Sailcraft UK denying that their booms (such a common breakage in the early days that I used them as a source of free alloy tube!) were less stiff than US ones, and being firmly disagreed with by the people who were at the first worlds...

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The report may exclude it but I doubt the delegates who vote on the rounds of recommendations to follow will expunge the shit-storm from their minds. 

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Neither World Sailing nor the IOC has any reason to give a damn about whether the Brand Name Racing club is having issues with its supply of brand name toys. 

It is long since past time for Our sport to simply define the singlehanded Racing toy. 

“This is the boat. If you want to come play, bring one of these.”

There could be certified builders:

”If you bring one of these and you have not modified it, it doesn’t even need to be inspected.”

install lifetime bans for using  modified or deliberately advantaged equipment 

and let’s  Go play 

 

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After much drinking and partying this weekend - and insufficient time spent sailing - I have carefully concluded that WS is picking the ILCA dinghy/Laser for the Olympic slot. Sorry Aero!

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48 minutes ago, Wess said:

After much drinking and partying this weekend - and insufficient time spent sailing - I have carefully concluded that WS is picking the ILCA dinghy/Laser for the Olympic slot. Sorry Aero!

Bring back the Firefly!

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

Bring back the Firefly!

Finn!!!

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39 minutes ago, Wess said:

Finn!!!

Bring back the O-Jolle.  286 Dutchmen can't be wrong!

220px-Evstratov_olympic.jpg

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

After much drinking and partying this weekend - and insufficient time spent sailing - I have carefully concluded that WS is picking the ILCA dinghy/Laser for the Olympic slot. Sorry Aero!

Seriously, if the Firefly was the best choice for the 1948 Olympics, why would we ever choose anything different?

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/208663/70-years-ago-this-week

yandy217493.jpg

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Seriously, if the Firefly was the best choice for the 1948 Olympics, why would we ever choose anything different?

https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/208663/70-years-ago-this-week

yandy217493.jpg

The difference of course was that nobody ever thought the Firefly was as great choice - it was just the only boat available. In 1948 no one was going to use the incumbent boat, the German O Jolle (which is still popular in Germany as well as the Netherlands). The singlehanded version was basically only ever used for the Games.

The Laser, of course, is very different having proven its enormous success to the tune of launching some 150,000 boats even before being selected. I think the next most popular boat ever chosen for the Games was the 470, with about 17,000 afloat when it was selected.

 

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1 minute ago, Curious said:

The difference of course was that nobody ever thought the Firefly was the best, and the singlehanded version was basically only ever used for the Games. The Laser, on the other hand, proved its enormous success to the tune of launching some 150,000 boats even before being selected. I think the next most popular boat ever chosen for the Games was the 470, with about 17000 afloat when it was selected.

 

Good points. I guess the Firefly probably wins the award for the least most popular singlehanded boat every selected for the Games?

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

After much drinking and partying this weekend - and insufficient time spent sailing - I have carefully concluded that WS is picking the ILCA dinghy/Laser for the Olympic slot. Sorry Aero!

After a gorgeous early summer day of sailing my RS Aero on her home lake yesterday - I have come to the conclusion that you are probably correct and that I really don't care either way. I would probably get a certain satisfaction from having the RS Aero receive the endorsement of Olympic selection, but if it's not selected it's not going to affect my enjoyment of the boat or my commitment to the RS Aero class.

The RS Aero Class in North America has already grown and developed to the point where it delivers pretty much everything I need... a local frostbite series in the winter, local club racing on Sundays and Tuesday evenings in the summer, a regatta circuit here in New England in the summer, a regatta circuit in Florida in the winter so I can get some warm weather racing in the winter months when I want, other regattas around the continent if I feel like traveling somewhere different... and World Championships if that takes my fancy too. Even without the Olympics, the Aero class will continue to grow and to provide more opportunities for racing in a friendly and corinthian spirit, not to mention the pleasure of introducing more new people every year to the thrills of Aero sailing.
 

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33 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Good points. I guess the Firefly probably wins the award for the least most popular singlehanded boat every selected for the Games?

Probably, although one source says that in the early days singlehanded Fireflys were quite common. That could be because after WW2 timber was severely rationed in England, so many people who wanted a new boat were unable to get their hands on the timber. There was an exception to the rationing for the Firefly because it was selected for the Olympics, so apparently many sailors suddenly decided to go for Gold, only to sadly find after their new Firefly had been delivered that they had other appointments that day.

Sir Peter Scott makes it sound as if the Firefly's choice was rather accidental; he went to the IOC's conference expecting to meet other sailors and work out what classes would be selected. When he lobbed up to Lausanne he found that he was sailing's only rep and therefore had to decide the Olympic classes on his own!

The other contender for least popular singlehander would be the 1924 "Olympic Monotypes" which were 5 metres long, 990lb in weight, carried jibs and spinnakers, and were sailed by "one amateur". It seems that most of the Olympic contenders sailed with a pro crew as well, at least in the "windy" races, so whether they were actually "singlehanders" is open to definition.

MeulanOlympic_Race.jpg

I'm a bit concerned that I can't find my 1948 Yachting Annual with its report about the 1948 Games. I'm just as concerned that I own a copy!  :-p

 

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19 minutes ago, tillerman said:

After a gorgeous early summer day of sailing my RS Aero on her home lake yesterday - I have come to the conclusion that you are probably correct and that I really don't care either way. I would probably get a certain satisfaction from having the RS Aero receive the endorsement of Olympic selection, but if it's not selected it's not going to affect my enjoyment of the boat or my commitment to the RS Aero class.

The RS Aero Class in North America has already grown and developed to the point where it delivers pretty much everything I need... a local frostbite series in the winter, local club racing on Sundays and Tuesday evenings in the summer, a regatta circuit here in New England in the summer, a regatta circuit in Florida in the winter so I can get some warm weather racing in the winter months when I want, other regattas around the continent if I feel like traveling somewhere different... and World Championships if that takes my fancy too. Even without the Olympics, the Aero class will continue to grow and to provide more opportunities for racing in a friendly and corinthian spirit, not to mention the pleasure of introducing more new people every year to the thrills of Aero sailing.
 

I've been in a couple of classes that gained Olympic selection and one that lost it. Selection seems to have very mixed blessings. The Aero is arguably better off out of it.

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

After much drinking and partying this weekend - and insufficient time spent sailing - I have carefully concluded that WS is picking the ILCA dinghy/Laser for the Olympic slot. Sorry Aero!

The conditions were a bit miserable around Annapolis this weekend, but you could have joined some fifty Laser Masters fighting for the Atlantic Coast Championship...

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

I've been in a couple of classes that gained Olympic selection and one that lost it. Selection seems to have very mixed blessings. The Aero is arguably better off out of it. 



I wouldn't be disappointed if it isn't selected, then I might have a chance at the worlds this year if the top Laser guys don't grab a charter boat for a blast :)

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2 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

The conditions were a bit miserable around Annapolis this weekend, but you could have joined some fifty Laser Masters fighting for the Atlantic Coast Championship...

seidenberg 3rd in the Radials straight up and second with age handicap 

except there’s more

Peter is way past age 75. The scorekeepers scored him as 65 to 74.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Article most interesting, but leaves out the ILCA5 sail, which would presumably nicely extend the wind range / weights for the women's event for Laser, if ILCA were allowed to bring that in!!

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He's a first class **** stirrer that guy, but I don't agree with an awful lot of what he says. 

 

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7 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

The conditions were a bit miserable around Annapolis this weekend, but you could have joined some fifty Laser Masters fighting for the Atlantic Coast Championship...

Surgery last week so I am only allowed to sail my couch sadly. But either way my Laser racing days are gone. Two rotator cuffs have converted me back to cruiser status. 

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WS must be thinking they need to be careful with 90% of boats from one guy, they looked like fools taking the Nacra who subcontract out the building of 100% of boats in one factory then that builder decided they didnt want to build them anymore so Nacra/Sailors/WS left in the lurch.

Everyone warned WS that could happen and it did and even without the all your eggs in one basket and the one factory burns down issue.

I think WS need to ensure there are independent builders on multiple continents and that needs to be criteria for selection

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

WS must be thinking they need to be careful with 90% of boats from one guy, they looked like fools taking the Nacra who subcontract out the building of 100% of boats in one factory then that builder decided they didnt want to build them anymore so Nacra/Sailors/WS left in the lurch.

Everyone warned WS that could happen and it did and even without the all your eggs in one basket and the one factory burns down issue.

I think WS need to ensure there are independent builders on multiple continents and that needs to be criteria for selection

Is there enough demand for that, though?  Seems like a lot of tooling and inspection for a very small market...  If 3D printing tech was at the point where you could print a hull cheaply, then...? :-)

Cheers,

               W.

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15 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Is there enough demand for that, though?  Seems like a lot of tooling and inspection for a very small market...  If 3D printing tech was at the point where you could print a hull cheaply, then...? :-)

Cheers,

               W.

There could be demand for it, if there was a supplier/builder who really worked to promote racing their product and support the sailing scene. Could be a huge market. It’d take a lot of work after years of neglect, but I’d say it’s possible!

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8 hours ago, dgmckim said:

There could be demand for it, if there was a supplier/builder who really worked to promote racing their product and support the sailing scene. Could be a huge market. It’d take a lot of work after years of neglect, but I’d say it’s possible!

Globally at the moment they do about $15m US per year in just boat sales not including the additional sails/spars/spares sales.  With some focus on the neglected markets that would be easy to grow

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On 5/12/2019 at 9:36 PM, dogwatch said:

Big if. You are comparing technical, difficult and expensive boats with one that is so simple even I can sail it and of comparable cost to the incumbent class.

Your assumption is also that all Olympic aspirants and youth already own or have access to a Laser. That isn't the case.

Were it not for the LP/ILCA shit-storm, I don't think there is much doubt the Laser would have remained the Olympic class. Self-destructive behaviour by LP has opened the question.

 

Yes, the 9er and Nacra are not directly comparable but the point is that developing sailing countries do not always switch to a new class. While the Aero may be easier to switch to because it is closer to a Laser, for the same reasons one can say that it creates many of the same problems for sailors (ie they have to buy new boats and establish new fleets) without the added interest of lots of new technique and greater speed. The "smaller" sailing nations also didn't really take to the Europe, Yngling, Elliott, etc which were not all technical or difficult. And if expense is enough of an issue to stop such nations supporting 9ers, Elliotts, Europes etc why force them to buy entire new fleets of Aeros?

I didn't assume that all Olympic and Youth aspirants already own Lasers. It's clearly not true, as the strength of Europes etc in some areas proves. But the enormous popularity of the Laser and the fact that it is incumbent indicates that it is more likely that such people own a Laser or can get into the class with a used boat.

You are dead right with the last line.

 

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Absolutely stupid to force people who have olympic dreams to buy a boat with no serious existing class in 90% of the world. I'm from socal, and I've only ever seen maybe 2 Aeros that weren't being peddled by RS sales reps. World Sailing can totally choose to update to a more modern platform, even though they would be leaving 95% of youth sailors without easy access to an olympic class boat. Lets not neglect that the both the price of new boat ownership is higher, and there is no second hand market. I'm in college, and I can find a Laser on craigslist for $500 ready to sail within 5 miles of my location year round. Would be olympic campaign ready? No, but it is certainly better to have the boat and a fleet of 10+ boats at any harbor in NA than no boat, no class, and no fun. And am I surprised that the Aero is a more suitable platform than the Laser? Not at all, if RS could not come up with a boat that could be lighter, faster, and more refined than a 50 year old design, I'd be pretty disappointed in what is advertised as the worlds leading dinghy manufacturer. It really does astonish me that there is any question about this. Also, why is the article on the FP today saying the the Aero sould get a second chance to redesign a smaller rig size for women and have another go at testing, but the ILCA's ongoing testing with rig and sail combos is "unproven"? I find that a little odd. I want the sport to progress, and new designs and technology to expand, but why is there so much pressure towards moving to expensive, unpopular, and unfounded ideas, seemingly for no reason other than just for a breath of fresh air. The d-zero seemed interesting to me, particularly with it's pricetag, but was immediately left behind because it was lacking global production ability,  but giving RS and Melges the slip? Whether it's the Laser or the ILCA Dinghy,  there is no question as to what boat is the "most suitable" for singlehanded olympic sailing, and there are 300,000 USED reasons why. 

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1 hour ago, Tubes said:

Absolutely stupid to force people who have olympic dreams to buy a boat with no serious existing class in 90% of the world. I'm from socal, and I've only ever seen maybe 2 Aeros that weren't being peddled by RS sales reps. World Sailing can totally choose to update to a more modern platform, even though they would be leaving 95% of youth sailors without easy access to an olympic class boat. Lets not neglect that the both the price of new boat ownership is higher, and there is no second hand market. I'm in college, and I can find a Laser on craigslist for $500 ready to sail within 5 miles of my location year round. Would be olympic campaign ready? No, but it is certainly better to have the boat and a fleet of 10+ boats at any harbor in NA than no boat, no class, and no fun. And am I surprised that the Aero is a more suitable platform than the Laser? Not at all, if RS could not come up with a boat that could be lighter, faster, and more refined than a 50 year old design, I'd be pretty disappointed in what is advertised as the worlds leading dinghy manufacturer. It really does astonish me that there is any question about this. Also, why is the article on the FP today saying the the Aero sould get a second chance to redesign a smaller rig size for women and have another go at testing, but the ILCA's ongoing testing with rig and sail combos is "unproven"? I find that a little odd. I want the sport to progress, and new designs and technology to expand, but why is there so much pressure towards moving to expensive, unpopular, and unfounded ideas, seemingly for no reason other than just for a breath of fresh air. The d-zero seemed interesting to me, particularly with it's pricetag, but was immediately left behind because it was lacking global production ability,  but giving RS and Melges the slip? Whether it's the Laser or the ILCA Dinghy,  there is no question as to what boat is the "most suitable" for singlehanded olympic sailing, and there are 300,000 USED reasons why. 

 

Why are 300,000 used boats (a number which is overstated by the way) any kind of reason why World Sailing shouldn't select the boat which was scored as being most suited to the Olympics in their evaluation?

Since when were Olympic classes selected on the basis of which class had the most used boats that you can buy for $500 on Craigslist?



 

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2 hours ago, Tubes said:

why is there so much pressure towards moving to expensive, unpopular, and unfounded ideas

That really is a ludicrous statement. It's a big old world and it does not rotate around Socal. Maybe pay some attention to what's going on elsewhere?

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 So,  how difficult is it really for a developing nation to continue with their existing laser program juniors on up to their elite sailors and then with 100 percent certainty expect that the top of their laser ladder can walk into the RS class and compete with just a few weeks of training  in the boat.  And the key point is that they  maintain their ranking in the single handed olympic dinghy world.   Most countries don't have olympic class fleets in most of the Olympic classes any way and  so obviously those kinds of fleets are irrelevant...   The competition is found at the gold cup ranking events.  

So... to me the key question would be..  ... do I think the pecking order of those sailors would change with time in the boat  between a laser and an RS...    IMO... Nope...  Do I think the sailors country cares about what kind of dinghy.... Nope..   So the number of national sailors in either the RS or laser class is irrelevant.    All that  you need is the certainty that your top laser sailing can walk into the RS fleet and with a few weeks of training hold their spot in the single handed olympic dinghy pecking order. 

The advantage of a different single handed dinghy is that you can market NEW to donors and supporters.....   its much harder to market "classic or traditional".  Nobody cares or knows what class Ben Ainsle got his medals in.... its the fact that he got the medals that matters. Olympics is not about tradition or nostalgia.    Hell, before the bottom fell out of US Sailing Olympic performance... the US loved new classes because they thought they could adapt quickly and their donors could be sold on he idea of a new  first ever XXX medal winner  (see wind surfing). (Times changed and the world doesn't lose out anymore)    I think the argument  that there are 300.000 lasers in the world is really weak.  A better argument, I would argue... the laser is the best training platform period..... in  some measure because of the 300,000 boats out there.   The cross over to the RS olympic boat is trivial.  Race a laser. to get to the top!...

Another l point... the 300,000 lasers in the world  implies that any of those racers could show up at a gold cup event and compete..... The reality is that spots are limited by country in those events.  EG... the USA gets Five slots.... Ten if they are the hosting nation.  So... again... the number you care about are those elite sailors attempting to qualify your country in an olympic class..  the number of those guys are 10 or less per country.. The actual numbers of olympic boats is underwhelming..   Nacra proudly announced the sale of their 300th N17 after 6 years.   ....There are virtually no rec fleets of N17s.  300 lasers might have been provided at a single worlds back in the day...

The argument for keep the laser... no change  in boats. might be that you can argue that donors want to see their money spent directly on the Olympic class that they are nostalgic for.  (see Finn sailors) ... OR that market place for used boats keeps the elite guy in the game with a new boat after selling their old boat to the up and comers.... 

Set aside the gravy train for class leaders etc for being an Olympic class... I would go with...get a laser... best training single handed dinghy... to get to the top... race a laser.

 

 

 

 

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On 5/12/2019 at 6:16 PM, dogwatch said:

The report may exclude it but I doubt the delegates who vote on the rounds of recommendations to follow will expunge the shit-storm from their minds. 

No, but if the balls can be lined up in time then a promise of new suppliers and a proposal to tighten up the construction manual to reduce variation would significantly improve the ILCA/Laser position. Supply and consistency were the major mark down categories for the Laser.

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7 hours ago, tillerman said:

 

Why are 300,000 used boats (a number which is overstated by the way) any kind of reason why World Sailing shouldn't select the boat which was scored as being most suited to the Olympics in their evaluation?

Since when were Olympic classes selected on the basis of which class had the most used boats that you can buy for $500 on Craigslist?



 

I agree, lets call it what it is 295000 soft used old shitboxes, and 5000 (maybe) boats worthwhile racing, but not even those if they are more than a year old are worthwhile as top level race boats. That's the dilemma of the LCM isnt it.

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I'm still wondering where the extra 80,000 boats came from...

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58 minutes ago, JMP said:

I'm still wondering where the extra 80,000 boats came from...

If you repeat a false "fact" enough times these days , it becomes the truth.

The highest Laser sail numbers at the recent Princess Sofia regatta were 216,xxx series.

And some of the 216xxx Lasers ever built have since been scrapped, sunk, crushed, put through the chipper, recycled, turned into planters etc,

So lets call it what it is... 200,000 (at best) "soft used old shitboxes" and 5,000 (maybe) boats worth racing seriously.

Coincidentally ILCA claims to have "over" 5,000 members.

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8 hours ago, Tcatman said:

  Most countries don't have olympic class fleets in most of the Olympic classes any way and  so obviously those kinds of fleets are irrelevant...  

Many, probably most, serious emerging and smaller sailing nations DO have Laser fleets. If such fleets are irrelevant then why do so many of the emerging nations seem to foster them so carefully? 

I know when I was doing Laser more seriously there was also no yawning divide between the Olympic sailors and the top "amateurs"; the latter were invited to race with the Olympians because they provided training partners. I'm just returning to the class and at the last regatta, there was again no sharp divide between the 2016 Olympian, the 2019 World Cup finalist, the up-and-coming kids and the world-class Masters. 

Either those fleets that the emerging nations foster so carefully are in fact relevant, or those running those programmes are fools. The latter is extremely unlikely - particularly since some of them kicked the USA's ass despite having about 1/80th the population. Maybe they know more about running a successful sailing programme in a small nation than you do?

Quote

So... to me the key question would be..  ... do I think the pecking order of those sailors would change with time in the boat  between a laser and an RS...    IMO... Nope...  Do I think the sailors country cares about what kind of dinghy.... Nope..   So the number of national sailors in either the RS or laser class is irrelevant.    All that  you need is the certainty that your top laser sailing can walk into the RS fleet and with a few weeks of training hold their spot in the single handed olympic dinghy pecking order. 

The advantage of a different single handed dinghy is that you can market NEW to donors and supporters.....   its much harder to market "classic or traditional".  Nobody cares or knows what class Ben Ainsle got his medals in.... its the fact that he got the medals that matters. Olympics is not about tradition or nostalgia.    Hell, before the bottom fell out of US Sailing Olympic performance... the US loved new classes because they thought they could adapt quickly and their donors could be sold on he idea of a new  first ever XXX medal winner  (see wind surfing). (Times changed and the world doesn't lose out anymore)    I think the argument  that there are 300.000 lasers in the world is really weak.  A better argument, I would argue... the laser is the best training platform period..... in  some measure because of the 300,000 boats out there.   The cross over to the RS olympic boat is trivial.  Race a laser. to get to the top!...

Another l point... the 300,000 lasers in the world  implies that any of those racers could show up at a gold cup event and compete..... The reality is that spots are limited by country in those events.  EG... the USA gets Five slots.... Ten if they are the hosting nation.  So... again... the number you care about are those elite sailors attempting to qualify your country in an olympic class..  the number of those guys are 10 or less per country.. The actual numbers of olympic boats is underwhelming..   Nacra proudly announced the sale of their 300th N17 after 6 years.   ....There are virtually no rec fleets of N17s.  300 lasers might have been provided at a single worlds back in the day...

The argument for keep the laser... no change  in boats. might be that you can argue that donors want to see their money spent directly on the Olympic class that they are nostalgic for.  (see Finn sailors) ... OR that market place for used boats keeps the elite guy in the game with a new boat after selling their old boat to the up and comers.... 

Set aside the gravy train for class leaders etc for being an Olympic class... I would go with...get a laser... best training single handed dinghy... to get to the top... race a laser.

 

 

 

 

If the Olympics isn't about tradition, why does the IOC itself rate tradition when deciding sports and why are so many great Olympic moments like the victory of Jesse Owens still so famous, decades later?

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It's all over people.

Well over 5,000 people have now signed the change.org petition to keep the Laser and Laser Radial in the Olympics.

How can WS vote any other way when 2.5% of the people who currently own Lasers are so united in this view?

 

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4 minutes ago, Curious said:

 

If the Olympics isn't about tradition, why does the IOC itself rate tradition when deciding sports and why are so many great Olympic moments like the victory of Jesse Owens still so famous, decades later?

And who can forget the AD 67 Olympics when Nero fell off his chariot and still declared himself the winner? 

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

If you repeat a false "fact" enough times these days , it becomes the truth.

The highest Laser sail numbers at the recent Princess Sofia regatta were 216,xxx series.

And some of the 216xxx Lasers ever built have since been scrapped, sunk, crushed, put through the chipper, recycled, turned into planters etc,

So lets call it what it is... 200,000 (at best) "soft used old shitboxes" and 5,000 (maybe) boats worth racing seriously.

Coincidentally ILCA claims to have "over" 5,000 members.

At a recent AGM, an ILCA council member put the number at 50,000 actively sailed Lasers or more, if I recall correctly, and said they'd checked the proportion of boats in local fleets that were owned by members, and then calculated it from there. 

While there have not been 300,000 Lasers built, some 9155 boats have been sold in the past few years. At the 2018 Masters nationals here, the divisions were won by boats of the following series; 170XXX, 160XXX, 201XXX, 160XXX, 190XXX, 202XXX, 190XXX, 201XXX, 190XXX, 214XXX. The average NATIONALS WINNING boat is therefore about 12 years old.  In that 12 years, 27,000 boats have been made.

It would appear pretty clear that the vast majority of the 26000+ boats that are newer than the average national champion boats would not be "soft old used shitboxes" that are not "worth racing seriously", and many of the even older boats are still doing well.

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On 5/13/2019 at 5:31 AM, Sailabout said:

I think WS need to ensure there are independent builders on multiple continents and that needs to be criteria for selection

 

 

There are 2 problems with promoting the multi builder model for the one category in the Olympics which aspires to provide a "universal" dinghy fpr Olympic competition.

1. It usually leads to more expensive boats  (multi builders rarely compete on price, they nearly always compete on building a higher quality, faster boat)

2. It compromises the strict one design aspiration of the "universal" and "accessible"  class.  

I realize that WS has adopted some kind of FRAND principle but IMO, they have not clearly articulated the reasoning and benefits.

The reason that RS is a strong contender is because even if they appoint a second sub contracted builder to increase volume supply, they will continue to control manufacture to ensure an identical boat and control distribution.  If a single , highly efficient factory can provide cost effective identical boats on a global basis, why would WS want to risk the product variation of a second independent factory? 

I can understand back up supply plans in case of facility catastrophe (and that is a reasonable request that any manufacturer is used to) but competing supply as a goal?????

 

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On 5/12/2019 at 1:16 PM, dogwatch said:

The report may exclude it but I doubt the delegates who vote on the rounds of recommendations to follow will expunge the shit-storm from their minds. 

Bingo.

Also, I believe that the report was subconsciously affected by the shit storm. The Laser scored higher than the Aero on Design and Performance but lower than the Aero on everything to do with logistics, consistency of manufacture, availability etc etc. Even if the shit storm was not overtly commented on, it affected the way both sailors and evaluators scored and voted on those factors.

If Laser manufacture, supply and distribution was best practice and gold standard, I doubt that this category would be the primary focus of evaluation. Instead WS would be focused on more pressing priorities.

The dysfuntional Laser builder consortium have themselves to blame. 

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20 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Somewhat more ebullient in tone than what rs issued immediately after the trials where one got the feeling they had thought it hadn’t gone so well. 

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

It's all over people.

Well over 5,000 people have now signed the change.org petition to keep the Laser and Laser Radial in the Olympics.

How can WS vote any other way when 2.5% of the people who currently own Lasers are so united in this view?

 

Brilliant, love it!

Welcome to passive internet democracy in 2019.

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21 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

Somewhat more ebullient in tone than what rs issued immediately after the trials where one got the feeling they had thought it hadn’t gone so well. 

I read it the exact opposite.

Their boat unequivocally won the evaluation.  They have been in business for 25 years, and know that World Sailing is full of politics and special interests.
They built the best boat, most suitable for the games.  RS sounds like it won't be surprised if WS chooses another boat... but it won't be because RS didn't build the best and most suitable boat for the games per the Trials.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

It's all over people.

Well over 5,000 people have now signed the change.org petition to keep the Laser and Laser Radial in the Olympics.

How can WS vote any other way when 2.5% of the people who currently own Lasers are so united in this view?

 

Doesn't this also represent about 2.5 times the amount of Aero's in existence…..?

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Doesn't this also represent about 2.5 times the amount of Aero's in existence…..?

You sound like one of those 65 year old life skiers who spent a decade complaining about snowboarding.

 

You know the Flying Dutchman isn't in the Olympics anymore too right?
You also might have seen the America's Cup recently, I can't remember if it's in 12M or not still, would you remind us all?
 

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17 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Very pro-change articles from big magazine today:

Yachts & Yachting:  World-Sailings-chance-to-move-sailing-forwards

The conclusion of the Y&Y article...

"The companies involved in the Equipment Trials put huge amounts of time, effort and money into attending these events, as do World Sailing's Evaluation Panel. If, as has happened before, the Council ignore the recommendations and instead listen to the loudest voices on social media and their inbox, then World Sailing risks alienating the industry, disenfranchising its own volunteers and failing in its duty of care for the sport.

World Sailing's Council has an opportunity to move the sport of sailing forwards on the Olympic stage, or it can just bow to the pressure of intransigent groups. Let's see after the weekend how things have panned out. Maybe, just maybe, they could have faith in their Evaluation Panel and endorse their exhaustive scoring process."

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25 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

You also might have seen the America's Cup recently, I can't remember if it's in 12M or not still, would you remind us all?

don't even get me started on all the ways the America's Cup has fucked up with its equipment upgrades. i'm not saying they should be using the 12m again but what they are doing now is not an improvement.

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25 minutes ago, tillerman said:

The conclusion of the Y&Y article...

"The companies involved in the Equipment Trials put huge amounts of time, effort and money into attending these events, as do World Sailing's Evaluation Panel. If, as has happened before, the Council ignore the recommendations and instead listen to the loudest voices on social media and their inbox, then World Sailing risks alienating the industry, disenfranchising its own volunteers and failing in its duty of care for the sport.

World Sailing's Council has an opportunity to move the sport of sailing forwards on the Olympic stage, or it can just bow to the pressure of intransigent groups. Let's see after the weekend how things have panned out. Maybe, just maybe, they could have faith in their Evaluation Panel and endorse their exhaustive scoring process."

the whole olympic debate seems misguided to me. it shouldn't be about 'moving the sport forward' or putting on a display of new technology, it should be about democratizing the sport of sailing to the point that anyone, from any part of the world, can mount a campaign to sail at the games. which boat does that the best?

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1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

You sound like one of those 65 year old life skiers who spent a decade complaining about snowboarding.

 

You know the Flying Dutchman isn't in the Olympics anymore too right?
You also might have seen the America's Cup recently, I can't remember if it's in 12M or not still, would you remind us all?
 

Thanks BE.  You made me laugh.  And you are correct on most of your points except I'm 12 years younger and have finally accepted the "surfer dudes" on the slopes.  I think the foiling AC's are cool, but really miss the pre-starts and close quarters racing of the 12 meter and IACC slugs.  I think most would agree the 87' cup series was the best ever with the 2000 event coming in second with the trial finals between Prada and One America/Cayard.

I'm not old enough to remember the FD being in the Olympics, but have sailed with a guy who got screwed out of racing one in the 80, (or was it 84?) games, (which was their last time in right?).

Now, back to my point.  5,000 sailors protesting the change DOES represent a little over HALF of the Aero's in EXISTENCE.  

The upside to that statistic is becoming your countries Olympic Aero Sailor for 2024 will be a lot easier than trying to land your countries berth in an ILCA dingy.  Less quantity = Less quality.  

 

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58 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

 

Now, back to my point.  5,000 sailors protesting the change DOES represent a little over HALF of the Aero's in EXISTENCE.  

The upside to that statistic is becoming your countries Olympic Aero Sailor for 2024 will be a lot easier than trying to land your countries berth in an ILCA dingy.  Less quantity = Less quality.  

 

Hmmm. Apart from the obvious numerical error I think there is an error in your logic.

How difficult it is to qualify to land your country's Olympic berth doesn't depend on the total number of boats of that class at all. It depends how many top caliber sailors in your country are competing for that berth. (Someone of my standard is no threat to compete for the olympic berth whether there are 2,000 of me or 200,000 of me.)

If the RS Aero is selected as the mens singlehander for the 2024 Olympics then the men in each country with a real chance of landing that country's Olympic spot will be pretty much the same men who would have been competing for the Laser spot. Not just the same number of men - exactly the same men. They may not own Aeros today but they will be buying them pretty soon if they are serious about 2024. In some small countries that may be two or three sailors. In larger countries it might be ten sailors, but usually the number real contenders in any country is even fewer than that.

OK I will concede that it may be a bit easier to qualify a country to have a spot in the Olympics in a class represented in fewer countries. But the the RS Aero is already in over 60 countries and, if selected, that number will probably go up pretty quickly. So it won't be much easier to get your average small country qualified than it is now. 

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

the whole olympic debate seems misguided to me. it shouldn't be about 'moving the sport forward' or putting on a display of new technology, it should be about democratizing the sport of sailing to the point that anyone, from any part of the world, can mount a campaign to sail at the games. which boat does that the best?

Both the RS Aero and the Laser have been judged as suitable boats to be the mens and women's singlehanders for 2024. Any young person currently aiming to qualify to sail for their country in those events will be buying a new boat at some point in the next year or so, whether the event is sailed in a Laser or an Aero. The Aero doesn't cost much more than a Laser (probably less than a Laser when you consider total costs over an Olympic cycle.) 

So the answer to your question is that the Laser and the Aero are equally able to achieve your objective of allowing anyone, from any part of the world, to mount a campaign to sail at the games.

By the way the WS evaluation scored the Aero 3 vs the Laser 1 (out of 5) in the Universality considerations.

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I don't think it is a question of whether or not the Aero is a "better" boat or not. Why is the fact that youth sailor have much easier access to the Laser not a suitable arguement? While the guys at the top, in the olympics, will just be able to buy a new boat no matter what, the younger sailors, or less financially supported sailors will undeniably have easier access to Lasers over Aeros. The olympians will sail whatever boat gets chosen and I highly doubt many of the professionals really even care, seeing as that they get paid no matter what, and they get boats provided either way. We need to look more at the bottom end, what is accessable and what the youth and bottom end programs can readily afford. You wonder why the sport is losing popularity with the younger crowd? It isn't America's Cup foiling monohulls, it's the lack of access for those out of college and less economically stable, increasingly large expenses to get to the competitive level, and barrier of entry for those in the lower and lower middle class.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Both the RS Aero and the Laser have been judged as suitable boats to be the mens and women's singlehanders for 2024. Any young person currently aiming to qualify to sail for their country in those events will be buying a new boat at some point in the next year or so, whether the event is sailed in a Laser or an Aero. The Aero doesn't cost much more than a Laser (probably less than a Laser when you consider total costs over an Olympic cycle.) 

So the answer to your question is that the Laser and the Aero are equally able to achieve your objective of allowing anyone, from any part of the world, to mount a campaign to sail at the games.

By the way the WS evaluation scored the Aero 3 vs the Laser 1 (out of 5) in the Universality considerations.

I guess my point was that everyone is framing this as a way to 'move sailing forward' in the olympics and I see that as radically missing the point. Sailing is going to have work very hard in the future to prove that it even belongs in the olympics to begin with. As the Laser is, and continues to be a perfectly suitable boat, why change everything and make every country start over just for the sake of 'moving the sport forward'. Anyone who has olympic aspirations can get into a cheap laser as a kid, which makes it more accessible. the new campaign boats come much later.

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Both the RS Aero and the Laser have been judged as suitable boats to be the mens and women's singlehanders for 2024. Any young person currently aiming to qualify to sail for their country in those events will be buying a new boat at some point in the next year or so, whether the event is sailed in a Laser or an Aero. The Aero doesn't cost much more than a Laser (probably less than a Laser when you consider total costs over an Olympic cycle.) 

So the answer to your question is that the Laser and the Aero are equally able to achieve your objective of allowing anyone, from any part of the world, to mount a campaign to sail at the games.

By the way the WS evaluation scored the Aero 3 vs the Laser 1 (out of 5) in the Universality considerations.

Numbers don't lie. Can the Aero beat this kind of inclusion?

 

universality.JPG

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2 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

Numbers don't lie. Can the Aero beat this kind of inclusion?

 

universality.JPG

This was compelling to me......until I asked myself.....which are the 13 countries in North America that participated in the Laser?

 

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4 minutes ago, IPLore said:

This was compelling to me......until I asked myself.....which are the 13 countries in North America that participated in the Laser?

 

is central america considered part of north america for this? it only lists north and south america. what about island nations in the carribean? and bermuda?

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2 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

is central america considered part of north america for this? it only lists north and south america

 Nope. The region is described by WS as "Central and South America" and it includes Mexico.

However the full name for North America is "North America and Caribbean"  which explains the 13 countries.  There are 21 MNAs in North America.

http://www.sailing.org/about/members/mnas/index.php

13 of them sent athletes to qualifying events in the Laser. In every other class it was 4 or less (except the Nacra which managed 5).  It does beg the question of whether WS is focused on the categories where change is needed.  

The advantage of the Laser, love it or hate it, is that any teenage kid in almost any country in the world can get their hands on a used beat up Laser and get "discovered". It is the closest thing that sailing has to soccer or a Kenyan kid putting on some sneakers and running 4 times around a track in under 4 minutes.

The Finn and the women's 470 stand out as old designs with limited geographic distribution.

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Olympics is about worldwide participation??

 

 

 

Yiu might like to name countries with  active grass roots participation In Luge, speed Skating, indoor team  bike racing,  pommel horse, ten meter platform diving, rhythmic gymnastics, rowing, equestrian, pole vaulting, hammer throw, decathalon, biathlon,  the really long ski jumping.... 

 

obviously the Olympics is about something else 

 

 

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6 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

You sound like one of those 65 year old life skiers who spent a decade complaining about snowboarding.

 

You know the Flying Dutchman isn't in the Olympics anymore too right?
You also might have seen the America's Cup recently, I can't remember if it's in 12M or not still, would you remind us all?
 

And you sound like someone who is so staid and of such restricted experience that you actually think that a speed improvement of just 2.5% in a minor rework of an ancient concept is worth getting excited about.

Your mention of the FD, though, is significant. When Paul Henderson was promoting the 49er he said that it should encourage the creation of a whole flotilla of similar popular classes, just like the FD seems to have led to the creation of the 420, 470, Korsar, 490, Strale, Milne Javelin, 505. The 49er, while an outstanding design, has certainly not seen a similar growth in skiff types - in fact there are probably fewer of them being sold now than before the 49er was selected. The style of boat inspired by the FD remains much more popular than the style of boat inspired by the 49er. So the 49er, along with the RSX and match racing, really shows how wrong many people can be when they start talking up new classes and how they can grow sailing and Olympic sailing.

When so many Olympic events (like the RSX, Elliott, Soling Match Racing, Tornado "sport" and arguably the 49ers) have failed to live up to some of the claims made by their promoters, how can anyone be sure that the Aero would live up to the hype?

 

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11 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Olympics is about worldwide participation??

 

 

 

Yiu might like to name countries with  active grass roots participation In Luge, speed Skating, indoor team  bike racing,  pommel horse, ten meter platform diving, rhythmic gymnastics, rowing, equestrian, pole vaulting, hammer throw, decathalon, biathlon,  the really long ski jumping.... 

 

obviously the Olympics is about something else 

 

 

The IOC's Olympic Programme Commission says that the Olympics ARE about worldwide participation. That's why it is a specific and important criteria they use when selecting Olympic sports. Sailing does poorly on the "universality" criteria, apart from the Laser. So choosing the Aero could be telling the IOC that we don't care about what they rate as important, and that sort of stuff rarely goes down well.

The fact that other sports suffer from the same problem does not mean we can ignore it - that's like ignoring the fact that your own crew is drowning because other people are also in trouble.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

This was compelling to me......until I asked myself.....which are the 13 countries in North America that participated in the Laser?

 

They are countries with a vote in the International Olympic Commission and who get to vote on the sports that stay in the Games. That's important.

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28 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Olympics is about worldwide participation??

 

 

 

Yiu might like to name countries with  active grass roots participation In ...  bike racing,  .... 

 

obviously the Olympics is about something else 

 

 

80 countries participated in bike racing qualifiers in the 2016 Olympics .  More people race bikes than sailboats.

36 countries qualified in the decathlon. Its pretty obscure, I agree , but its easy for a country to try and almost all schools do track and field which the decathlon epitomizes.

Participation is one of the major goals of the Olympics.  There is also the tradition element....which is why equestrian events will remain part of the Olympics.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

 

The advantage of the Laser, love it or hate it, is that any teenage kid in almost any country in the world can get their hands on a used beat up Laser and get "discovered". It is the closest thing that sailing has to soccer or a Kenyan kid putting on some sneakers and running 4 times around a track in under 4 minutes.

And when that kid in his beat up Laser is ready to start a serious Olympic campaign, he will easily be able to transition to the Aero. He's going to need a new boat for his Olympic campaign anyway.

I suspect the Kenyan kid running his 4 minute miles will be buying some new sneakers when he starts a serious Olympic campaign too.

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While maybe not the exact topic of this thread but I see cheap access to water that is suitable for safely launching and retrieving Lasers, Aeros and similar as a problem. The barrier to entry of someone wanting to purchase a used Laser on Craigslist (in the US) for $1000 is pretty low but once you've purchased your entry level Laser (or spend more money and get an Aero or other), do you have easy, cheap access to a safe launching site? Access to places to play football (soccer), run or ride bikes in the US (and around the world) is pretty easy.

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Just now, Alan Crawford said:

While maybe not the exact topic of this thread but I see cheap access to water that is suitable for safely launching and retrieving Lasers, Aeros and similar as a problem. The barrier to entry of someone wanting to purchase a used Laser on Craigslist (in the US) for $1000 is pretty low but once you've purchased your entry level Laser (or spend more money and get an Aero or other), do you have easy, cheap access to a safe launching site? Access to places to play football (soccer), run or ride bikes in the US (and around the world) is pretty easy.

Good question.

Free, easy access to water is not a problem here in Rhode Island. Plenty of free boat ramps. Plenty of beaches that are free (apart form peak weeks of summer at some.)

 

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I've heard through the years that water access is becoming a problem in places in the US thanks to development. While this thread isn't about sailing growth, I think access is a major hindrance.

Rhode Island water access is analogous to Montana snow / mountain access. Millions of acres of US National Forest waiting....

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Both the RS Aero and the Laser have been judged as suitable boats to be the mens and women's singlehanders for 2024. Any young person currently aiming to qualify to sail for their country in those events will be buying a new boat at some point in the next year or so, whether the event is sailed in a Laser or an Aero. The Aero doesn't cost much more than a Laser (probably less than a Laser when you consider total costs over an Olympic cycle.) 

So the answer to your question is that the Laser and the Aero are equally able to achieve your objective of allowing anyone, from any part of the world, to mount a campaign to sail at the games.

By the way the WS evaluation scored the Aero 3 vs the Laser 1 (out of 5) in the Universality considerations.

The countries you are talking about don't seem to agree with you. They clearly often concentrate on building up their Laser fleets. They seem to believe that having an actual fleet IS vital. Their behaviour seems to show that they DON'T think that you can mount a decent campaign without a fleet to sail with.

For example, Singapore's successful strategy has tried to build up numbers in the Olympic class squads. They dropped the Byte CII (despite the "cool" rig) after the lack of success in the Youth Olympic Games, to concentrate on the Laser squads. To quote their High Performance plan, they wanted to develop the fleets MORE than the individual sailors to achieve success.  "The individual can be strong only if immersed in a healthy and competitive environment".

What right do we have to infer that they are fools, and that we from the major sailing nations know better than they do how to handle their own country's sailing development?

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

Both the RS Aero and the Laser have been judged as suitable boats to be the mens and women's singlehanders for 2024. Any young person currently aiming to qualify to sail for their country in those events will be buying a new boat at some point in the next year or so, whether the event is sailed in a Laser or an Aero. The Aero doesn't cost much more than a Laser (probably less than a Laser when you consider total costs over an Olympic cycle.) 

So the answer to your question is that the Laser and the Aero are equally able to achieve your objective of allowing anyone, from any part of the world, to mount a campaign to sail at the games.

By the way the WS evaluation scored the Aero 3 vs the Laser 1 (out of 5) in the Universality considerations.

 Figures already quoted show that your inference that only 5000 Lasers are raceworthy is wrong. It also seems that it's wrong when you infer that any young person currently aiming to qualify for Olympic and Youth sailing gets a new boat every year or so. Just to take the last Laser championship I did as a sample; sail numbers show that a 2016 Olympic finalist was racing on a 10 year old boat. A finalist at the last World Cup was racing a four year old boat. The champion from the highly competitive neighbouring district was racing on a five year old boat.  I confess I didn't bend down and check transom numbers, so it's possible that these sailors had sails from their old boats on newer hulls. If so, that means their sails have probably lasted better than some people claim!  

We cannot compare the cost of being competitive in a non-Olympic amateur class like the Aero to the cost of an Olympic class. Before the Laser went Olympic you could get into the top 25 in the world and only ever own one new sail in your entire Laser career, or get third in the open standard worlds while holding down a full time career. You can't do that any more but it's because the competition is much tougher since the class went Olympic. In a similar vein, you can be close to the top of a class that is growing faster than the Aero and may have more entries at the worlds than the Aero, while being an old amateur but you cannot do that in an Olympic class.

 

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6 hours ago, tillerman said:



By the way the WS evaluation scored the Aero 3 vs the Laser 1 (out of 5) in the Universality considerations.

Wrong again. Table 4.4.2 "Universality Considerations" from the report gives the Aero 4, the Laser 3. You seem to be trying very hard to sling shit at the Laser without actually worrying about accuracy. See page 13 at https://members.sailing.org/tools/documents/EQCSP4biiiMenWomenOnePersonDinghy-[24944].pdf

SInce you chose to raise the WS evaluation, by the way, it's reasonable to point out that it rated the Laser top of the bunch in two of the five design criteria (including performance) and equal in a third. It also gave the Laser a better score on price.

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