Bill5

New Olympic Dinghy Selection

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Early Lasers had regular mast step failures. we fixed a failing 37000 series boat last week. They have done much better since about 1982. 

some old Sunfish have mast steps with issues similar to your photos. We fixed one last week. 

It looks like the boats in your photos had severe abrasion problems. 

The AEROs I have seen each have a piece not shown in your photos. 

My boat has no mast step issues.

 

As for your step strength concerns, I do not share them. A shorter tube does put more stress on the mast but my impression is the AERO mast is sufficiently overbuilt such that it won’t bend as have so many Radial masts. 

The earliest Aeros did suffer from some gel coat abrasion at the top of the mast step. RS Sailing introduced a mast step collar to protect that area in later boats.It can bought as a part to retrofit to older boats.

My first boat - now being sailed by my son - has been sailed naked (without the mast step collar) for 4 years now and only has some slight abrasion of the gel coat - nowhere near as bad as some as those pictures. Even thought the Aero mast step has a hole at the bottom I think it's still a good idea to keep sand and grit out of the step, as one would on a Laser.

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7 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

it's like watching people in 1914 stamp their feet and say NO WAY AUTOMOBILES!!!  HORSES ONLY!!!

 

Sad state of our sport where 7200 can be so backwords thinking :/

that's a very poor comparison. you should be ashamed of that one.

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58 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

that's a very poor comparison. you should be ashamed of that one.

Agreed. How about Ford Pinto vs Jaguar I-Pace?

 

 

440px-Ford_Pinto.jpg

jaguar-i-pace-lo-show-di-presentazione-dalle-19-del-1-marzo.jpg

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29 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Agreed. How about Ford Pinto vs Jaguar I-Pace?

 

 

440px-Ford_Pinto.jpg

jaguar-i-pace-lo-show-di-presentazione-dalle-19-del-1-marzo.jpg

What? The Jag is only marginally faster than the Pinto? I would have expected more...

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Pretty sure the jag got beat by the pinto on performance, according to the evaluators.  That would be embarrassing.

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What about universality? And what does that mean?

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Does the specific manufacturer change the probability of any given Laser/ILCA exploding if hit in the transom?

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13 minutes ago, bill4 said:

What about universality? And what does that mean?

the likelihood of the design to be used in interstellar travel

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15 minutes ago, tillerman said:

3 million Ford Pinto buyers can't be wrong.
 

vs 7,900 Jaguar i Pace.

Its the universality!

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28 minutes ago, bill4 said:

What about universitality? And what does that mean?

Suitable for college sailing???

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I knew there was a typo!! Now it makes much more sense. I don't believe the judges picked up on it, though.

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Changing the whole infrastructure to replace gas stations with electric charging stations overnight is totally impractical and represents a crippling expense for smaller nations.

 

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

Changing the whole infrastructure to replace gas stations with electric charging stations overnight is totally impractical and represents a crippling expense for smaller nations.

 

When Z gained its independence from Britain they changed from driving on the left to driving on the right.  When challenged by the media about the crippling expense, the minister of transport promised to make the transition gradually.

There are always solutions.

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Only 12,775 people have bought the I-Pace compared with 3 million for the Ford Pinto. Where are you going to find other I-Pace owners to train with?

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Only 12,775 people have bought the I-Pace compared with 3 million for the Ford Pinto. Where are you going to find other I-Pace owners to train with?

Put the I-Pace with the Saab Aeros.  ;) 

The very first Aeros were produced by Saab and had zero problems with the mast step.

Saab-Aero-Badge.jpg

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9 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

it's like watching people in 1914 stamp their feet and say NO WAY AUTOMOBILES!!!  HORSES ONLY!!!

 

Sad state of our sport where 7200 can be so backwords thinking :/

It's not "backwards looking" to say that the most popular boat in the world should stay in the Games instead of being replaced by something that could have been in production 35 years ago. In what other sport is anyone trying to throw the most popular type of equipment out of the Olympics? Are you claiming the other sports are also "backwards looking"?

In some ways it's "backwards looking" to pretend that in an era of foilers, any displacement dinghy is "forwards thinking". The Aero is a lovely boat, but in many ways no newer or proportionately faster than something like the mid '70s Tasar design. It's dramatically slower than a 1960s International Canoe or Contender.  If you want to look at moving the sport forward then it's [perhaps bizarre to just creep forward about .12 knots in a world where the leading edge is kitefoilers capable of about 47 knots. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

Image result for aero chocolate bar

 

Advert, from Rowntree in 1937 published in the Yorkshire Post.

"A-a-a-ah! THE 'LIFT' YOU GET WITH AERO" could be used by RS, as could some of the other advert copy. "A-a-a-ah! BUT YOU SOON TIRE IF YOU HOLD IT". 

It may look fun "out front." Behind the footlights it's work - the sort of work that takes it out of you. To put you on your toes again you need the quick 'lift' that Aero gives.

I can think of many a race where I would have liked a "quick lift" - but instead tacked onto a header.

Users of the Aero can take quiet solace in the knowledge that the "...Aero stimulates the enzyme flow". Or maybe that's more about a cure for constipation.

aero.jpg

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I'm working up a design that should be ideal for a unarig dinghy. The mast bury in the step is 110% of spar length. This is mathematically provable to be the ultimate mast step design because relative bury is the only important variable. 

MK.I version with a step at each end of the spar proved strong but unworkable. I think Doug Lord may continue development of the concept. 

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While Elvstrom was a great sailor, his record in creating or running classes was pretty poor.  The Trapez was basically a flop, as was the Elvstrom Jnr I think. After all, what logical reason is there to believe that the things that make someone a great sportsperson are the same ones that make a great administrator?   If success in sports competition required the same talents as success in sports administration then surely all great sports administrators would be great successes on the field of play. We know that's not the case so clearly the two roles don't test the same skills.  Many great sportspeople have gone broke or failed at their other careers or as sports administrators.

I know from experience at national level that the skills required to be a successful class administrator have little relationship to the skills required to win championships, and there seems to be no reason why things would change at Olympic level.

 

 

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4 hours ago, nieptun said:

There are no old Aeros.
Do you know how the mast wear ring can change mast rake?

Mine is 4+ years old, I'd call that old primarily as it was one of the first into Australia and from way before the mast ring was introduced, it doesn't have significant wear of the mast step and I sail exclusively in salt water from sandy beach locations.  But like with my laser, I wash the mast step out after each sail.  

With the range of the Aero rig the mast rake change hasn't had any negative impact on my upwind performance and I'm still damn fast downwind...

I've only got the 7 rig with my Aero and sail that in all conditions, with the more modern rig it's easier to tune to be quick in a wider range of conditions. With my laser I use a radial rig if it's going to be blowing consistently over 15 knots or if the rest of the laser people are going out in radials that day.  In the 4+ years I've owned the Aero the only things I've had to replace is the top cover after it perished from the UV, it lasted about the same amount of time as the canvas PSA laser top covers I use, and the gooseneck pin ($20 shipped) after I bent it doing something stupid :p .  On my laser in that time I've been through two radial bottom sections, two top sections and about 5 sails...  The Aero is costing me a lot less :)

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12 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

 

Someone left the sock drawer open

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11 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

more like pinto vs the recent dart

 

 

left_coast_dart_photo.jpg

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On 5/15/2019 at 8:40 AM, Curious said:

The countries you are talking about don't seem to agree with you. They clearly often concentrate on building up their Laser fleets. They seem to believe that having an actual fleet IS vital. Their behaviour seems to show that they DON'T think that you can mount a decent campaign without a fleet to sail with.

For example, Singapore's successful strategy has tried to build up numbers in the Olympic class squads. They dropped the Byte CII (despite the "cool" rig) after the lack of success in the Youth Olympic Games, to concentrate on the Laser squads. To quote their High Performance plan, they wanted to develop the fleets MORE than the individual sailors to achieve success.  "The individual can be strong only if immersed in a healthy and competitive environment".

What right do we have to infer that they are fools, and that we from the major sailing nations know better than they do how to handle their own country's sailing development?

remind me which boats in the olympics are designed for average size asian sailor?

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16 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

remind me which boats in the olympics are designed for average size asian sailor?

Gymnastics is not suitable to the average American woman but that team seems to do OK 

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3 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Gymnastics is not suitable to the average American woman but that team seems to do OK 

The average age of female Olympic gymnasts is 18.94. Not sure 19 year old elite female athletes can be said to be physically representative of a general population of women anywhere. 

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7 hours ago, JMP said:

Mine is 4+ years old, I'd call that old primarily as it was one of the first into Australia and from way before the mast ring was introduced, it doesn't have significant wear of the mast step and I sail exclusively in salt water from sandy beach locations.  But like with my laser, I wash the mast step out after each sail.  

With the range of the Aero rig the mast rake change hasn't had any negative impact on my upwind performance and I'm still damn fast downwind...

I've only got the 7 rig with my Aero and sail that in all conditions, with the more modern rig it's easier to tune to be quick in a wider range of conditions. With my laser I use a radial rig if it's going to be blowing consistently over 15 knots or if the rest of the laser people are going out in radials that day.  In the 4+ years I've owned the Aero the only things I've had to replace is the top cover after it perished from the UV, it lasted about the same amount of time as the canvas PSA laser top covers I use, and the gooseneck pin ($20 shipped) after I bent it doing something stupid :p .  On my laser in that time I've been through two radial bottom sections, two top sections and about 5 sails...  The Aero is costing me a lot less :)

The unfortunate thing is that your experience counts for less than a few days in the sun and some confused reasoning from a group of sailors we know little about.

The evaluation sailors (all European bar one) concluded that you need to be heavier to sail an Aero than the equivalent Laser.  Only one of the female evaluators was big enough for the Aero 7 and only half the men were big enough for the Aero 9.  The competitive weight range for the 9 was deemed no wider than for the standard Laser and the 7 only had 1kg more range the the Radial.  So, they didn’t conclude that the boat was easier to de power, or at least not whilst remaining competitive.  They also concluded the Laser was not only cheapest but best value overall.

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Equipment committee feedback to council meeting tomorrow seemed primarily concerned with universality, so probably favouring the Laser at this stage. 

 Quite a way to go before a final decision is made, I think.

Cheers,

              W.

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If I was a better hiker I'd give a 9 rig a go, but my sailing weight ranges between 75-79kg and in the heavy stuff with a laser full rig my legs give out too early :)  As it is, I find the 7m Aero rig is a great alternate to a full rig laser personally.  When the whole laser fiasco is over and the C rigs are released I'll buy new laser/ICLA/whatever with a C rig as I'm keen to see how they go and anticipate the rig will work over a wider wind range for my sailing ability.  I sold my "Good" Laser and currently use a pretty old hull

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10 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Equipment committee feedback to council meeting tomorrow seemed primarily concerned with universality, so probably favouring the Laser at this stage. 

 

 

?

Did you mean universality?

1257498575_Universaility1.PNG.6f65c870fe85948977fdbd0612a5bbcc.PNG

or did you mean "universality"?

2077511476_Unversaility2.PNG.8ad2c28f720296580c8019759495ce05.PNG

or possibly universality?

1218484985_Universaility3.PNG.e7a53c89a602b3a04d6a32a77dce597a.PNG

 

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2 minutes ago, IPLore said:

?

Did you mean universality?

1257498575_Universaility1.PNG.6f65c870fe85948977fdbd0612a5bbcc.PNG

or did you mean "universality"?

2077511476_Unversaility2.PNG.8ad2c28f720296580c8019759495ce05.PNG

or possibly universality?

1218484985_Universaility3.PNG.e7a53c89a602b3a04d6a32a77dce597a.PNG

 

They mostly seemed to be talking about access to boats- numbers and cost, especially for sailors from countries where budgets are tight. Didn't make any specific reference to the report that I recall.

Cheers,

                    W.

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3 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

They mostly seemed to be talking about access to boats- numbers and cost, especially for sailors from countries where budgets are tight. Didn't make any specific reference to the report that I recall.

Cheers,

                    W.

Ahhhh. They were talking about "access"  "numbers" and "cost"......real words which real people can understand.

There goes Clean's theory on intergalactic travel.

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Still don’t understand how the aero is cheaper? Even if you argue the hull lasts longer for the price the sails run $100 more than the laser and last I checked white darcon lasts about the same no matter what boat it’s on

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4 hours ago, RobG said:

The average age of female Olympic gymnasts is 18.94. Not sure 19 year old elite female athletes can be said to be physically representative of a general population of women anywhere. 

 if you average those women's stats at 45 years old you'd probably still be 60 pounds and 3 inches below the average american female.  

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

?

Did you mean universality?

1257498575_Universaility1.PNG.6f65c870fe85948977fdbd0612a5bbcc.PNG

or did you mean "universality"?

2077511476_Unversaility2.PNG.8ad2c28f720296580c8019759495ce05.PNG

or possibly universality?

1218484985_Universaility3.PNG.e7a53c89a602b3a04d6a32a77dce597a.PNG

 

Someone needs a new thesaurus

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 if you average those women's stats at 45 years old you'd probably still be 60 pounds and 3 inches below the average american female.  

So are they going to lower basketball hoops and volleyball nets to cater to smaller people?  World Sailing has summarily dismissed dinghy sailing for anybody over about 190 lbs. Why are we being selected against?? Is it really all about selling boats in SE Asia?? 

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4 hours ago, LTFF said:

Still don’t understand how the aero is cheaper? Even if you argue the hull lasts longer for the price the sails run $100 more than the laser and last I checked white darcon lasts about the same no matter what boat it’s on

Actually the Aero sails do last longer than Laser sails. And the Aero masts and spars don't break or bend in normal usage like Laser masts do. 

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9 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Actually the Aero sails do last longer than Laser sails. And the Aero masts and spars don't break or bend in normal usage like Laser masts do. 

Ok, but once the Aero is truly a competitive force with large fleets of excellent sailors, how often will the top guys buy new sails?

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52 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Ok, but once the Aero is truly a competitive force with large fleets of excellent sailors, how often will the top guys buy new sails?

Bull sh*t.  You canntt be serious.  I am as pro-Laser as anyone but you more than most has to know the sail is a piece of ancient sh*t.  It blows out at the drop of a hat and the breeze that event creates.  Come on you lose all credibility if you try to compare the Laser class sail (especially the older one) with an Aero sail.  That is a comical post.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bull sh*t.  You canntt be serious.  I am as pro-Laser as anyone but you more than most has to know the sail is a piece of ancient sh*t.  It blows out at the drop of a hat and the breeze that event creates.  Come on you lose all credibility if you try to compare the Laser class sail (especially the older one) with an Aero sail.  That is a comical post.

Ouch. Just curious. Every 2 years?

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2 hours ago, bill4 said:

So are they going to lower basketball hoops and volleyball nets to cater to smaller people?  World Sailing has summarily dismissed dinghy sailing for anybody over about 190 lbs. Why are we being selected against?? Is it really all about selling boats in SE Asia?? 

if you can't get down to 190 you are either not an athlete or you're over 6''3, in which case you probably weren't discriminated against in sports growing up.  Suck it up buttercup.

 

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6’ 2.5”, but old as dirt.  Fit, though. I was speaking on behalf of the larger set, even though my personal best days are well in the past. 

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8 minutes ago, bill4 said:

6’ 2.5”, but old as dirt.  Fit, though. I was speaking on behalf of the larger set, even though my personal best days are well in the past. 

I hear ya. 6'2, old and not super fit, and my 190 days are long behind me.  I played basketball at 185 in high school and could have been smaller if necessary.  Every time I hear complaints about those poor tall people, I'm reminded of three things: 

1) The fact that being 6'2" at age 15 was a huge benefit to my sporting opportunities, and

2) Tall, skinny people have inherent advantages on dinghies over average height people.

3) These two guys are 6'4 and 6'5 and weigh in at 205.  Probably wouldn't be too hard to lose a little muscle and race sailboats if there was a few million bucks in it!

26494160472_59af59632e_h.0.jpg

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Actually the Aero sails do last longer than Laser sails. And the Aero masts and spars don't break or bend in normal usage like Laser masts do. 

Because actually when Laser sailors hiking hard in high wind, Aero sailors only reaching on 5 or 7 rig.

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3 hours ago, bill4 said:

Ouch. Just curious. Every 2 years?

Before it gets lost - what is the racing lifespan of an Aero sail? 

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Wasn't the World Sailing 2024 "decision" supposed to be released yesterday? I can hear the world sailing bureaucrats bending under the pressure of nostalgia and fear of change coming from the Laser Zombies all the way from here in Michigan.

I am hoping the Kirby Torch gets put to pasture where it belongs. 

The RS Aero is so superior, and in so many ways, that it is amazing to me that a sail off was necessary. Below is something I wrote a while back after experiencing an RS Aero for the first time.  At that time I had no idea the World Sailing "bake-off" was coming.    I have sailed Laser's for many years (and got so tired of them I quit and moved on the better things in life) and I sailed the M14 a bunch as well.  The M14 is also FAR better than the Laser but the RS Aero is way beyond the M14 (sorry) in every way.  They should have built it much, much lighter.  Instead, they went cheap and easy.

https://seanfidler.com/2018/03/rs-aero-sarasota-one-design-midwinters/

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ludicrous Speed said:

Wasn't the World Sailing 2024 "decision" supposed to be released yesterday? I can hear the world sailing bureaucrats bending under the pressure of nostalgia and fear of change coming from the Laser Zombies all the way from here in Michigan.

 

The Equipment Committee is schedule to receive the report of the Evaluation Panel and consider its recommendations on Saturday.

The World Sailing Council is scheduled to receive the recommendations of the Equipment Committee on Sunday.

Which probably means that nothing will be decided until November and then they will replace the mens and women's single-hander events with one mixed gender 24 hour offshore single-hander event to be sailed in Melges 14s.

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20 hours ago, sosoomii said:

The unfortunate thing is that your experience counts for less than a few days in the sun and some confused reasoning from a group of sailors we know little about.

The evaluation sailors (all European bar one) concluded that you need to be heavier to sail an Aero than the equivalent Laser.  Only one of the female evaluators was big enough for the Aero 7 and only half the men were big enough for the Aero 9.  The competitive weight range for the 9 was deemed no wider than for the standard Laser and the 7 only had 1kg more range the the Radial.  So, they didn’t conclude that the boat was easier to de power, or at least not whilst remaining competitive.  They also concluded the Laser was not only cheapest but best value overall.

The plot thickens - RS announce the Aero 6 as a potential women’s Olympic rig.  On the one hand they are responding to feedback which is more than can be said of anything Laser related, on the other hand it wasn’t at the trials/evaluation so shouldn’t be considered.  Maybe a new evaluation event for the A6, Arc and C6 is needed! 

43A2EF72-A132-440B-A426-393233BC9AA8.jpeg

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And can we look forward to the Aero 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5... and everyone carting along 4 rigs to each event and agonising over which one to enter?  I'm not entirely sure this is a great development if it brings a pressure on people to buy more rigs.

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16 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

if you can't get down to 190 you are either not an athlete or you're over 6''3, in which case you probably weren't discriminated against in sports growing up.  Suck it up buttercup.

 

Bingo.......best post of the thread.

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Discussing the design problems of the D1.  Lack of forward volume.

Very vague about other differences.

Discussing what components needed revision....again vague.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, IPLore said:

You can listen to the equipment committee discussions live here:

http://www.sailing.org/news/88641.php#.XN_mz6R7m00

 

Its going on right now.

They are talking about how each of the boats capsized and recovered ....and how they selected which sailor sailed which boat

Thanks for posting that.

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Asked about fairness of scoring process.

The evaluation panel were asked about the differences of opinions between men and women. Interestingly, the men tested the women's rigs and vice versa and the discussions were combined, not separated.  They did not create a mens opinion and a womens opinion.

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One of the panel said that the panel personally preferred the Aero.

Another said no that if the panel preferred one boat, they would have recommended one boat but they recommended two boats.

Now a very pertinent question from Irish representative......"Is one boat so superior that it warrants the disruption of changing equipment?"

 

 

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The chairwoman of the panel clearly prefers the Aero .....some of the other members of the panel are less sure.

One of the panel gave a very balanced summary.

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1 minute ago, IPLore said:

The chairwoman of the panel clearly prefers the Aero .....some of the other members of the panel are less sure.

One of the panel gave a very balanced summary.

Joined late but not getting that impression

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It's refreshing to listen to a calm, considered, respectful discussion on this topic. Such a contrast to all the emotion on this forum in recent days.

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The production plans being discussed for the Aero are clearly not FRAND. I personally don’t think FRAND is necessary but it is part of the requirement...

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

Joined late but not getting that impression

"no reservations...very impressed...."   Every question she gets, she emanates her preference for the aero.   

Earlier , she stated that the panels report indicated a clear preference . Then two of her fellow panelists corrected her

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Why do they continue to talk about additional manufacturers IF NEEDED to meet demand. FRAND surely requires open manufacture regardless of demand?

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6 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

The production plans being discussed for the Aero are clearly not FRAND. I personally don’t think FRAND is necessary but it is part of the requirement...

 

Just now, sosoomii said:

Why do they continue to talk about additional manufacturers IF NEEDED to meet demand. FRAND surely requires open manufacture regardless of demand?

Yea this is odd.  Laser going nuts to be FRAND while the committee keeps talking can Aero supply from one site (which on face seems not FRAND).

Oh.... the Miami comment, LOL

 

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Two panelists repeatedly describe "two valid options"

The chairwomen (who seems to have a US accent) has a preference.  She is letting on about how she has had problems getting Laser parts and sound annoyed with Laser Performance.  Papering over distribution gaps of Aero.

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"I cant go to my local boat shop and buy a class legal Laser centerboard"   ......to say that her opinion is not shaped by the current Laser fiasco is disingenuous..........Dina Kowalyshyn

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I really think its a fair and balance discussion IPL.  Its true you cant get parts for Laser and Nacra in many places.  They are balancing that against "just one mfg" for Aero.  They don 't care about FRAND...they seem to care (rightly IMHO) that sailors can get parts and boats and sails and parts

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Grrrrrr. They cannot split out availability and quality control from FRAND. It changes everything. 

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Just now, sosoomii said:

Grrrrrr. They cannot split out availability and quality control from FRAND. It changes everything. 

Agree but they are. 

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The same potential builders applying to build Lasers will also want to build the Aero if selected - so the quality and availability will be the same regardless of the boat chosen. 

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OMG........"No equipment should be used for Olympic sailing unless the rights belong to World Sailing"...........there goes both Laser and Aero.

"Rights holder has to give away the rights to world sailing"   for a royalty (which IMHO should have been negotiated ahead of the vote)

 

Will RS withdraw? ;)

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The wise, experienced and gravelly voice of the one and only Bill Abbott.

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2 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

The same potential builders applying to build Lasers will also want to build the Aero if selected - so the quality and availability will be the same regardless of the boat chosen. 

Yes but only if FRAND is forced on all classes equally and the same way.  Its clearly not being done that way (equally on all the same way). 

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Okay.......I am off sailing.  Tell me how they voted. The vote will be posted here online on SA forums before the news media.

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Dina clearly prefers the Aero.....everything she says is plus Aero and negative Laser.

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Oh...im going to stay for the vote.

Kudos to WS for the transparency or allowing us to listen online

 

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Voting now.

And the winner until WS decides to overrule this committee vote is.....

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Damn....I really have to get changed and go sailing....please post the vote here

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8 minutes ago, IPLore said:

The Aero wins 9 votes to 3 votes

Separate votes for mens and women's events. Same result for both. RS Aero 9 - Laser 3. 

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