bill4

New Olympic Dinghy Selection

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In the Laser - Applying A Blow Torch topic, Dex Sawash suggested a new thread be set up for this topic. Made sense to me, so here it is. You can look back to Laser - Applying A Blow Torch and catch some comments from BlatantEcho, dgmckim, RumRunner and Tillerman. Here is the latest info:

http://www.sailing.org/news/87980.php#.W7TP4i-ZPVv

What do you think the opening odds are? I am thinking:

Laser 3:2

Aero 2:1

D Zero 8:1

Melges: 10:1

 

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18 minutes ago, bill4 said:

In the Laser - Applying A Blow Torch topic, Dex Sawash suggested a new thread be set up for this topic. Made sense to me, so here it is. You can look back to Laser - Applying A Blow Torch and catch some comments from BlatantEcho, dgmckim, RumRunner and Tillerman. Here is the latest info:

http://www.sailing.org/news/87980.php#.W7TP4i-ZPVv

What do you think the opening odds are? I am thinking:

Laser 3:2

Aero 2:1

D Zero 8:1

Melges: 10:1

 

This really isn't hard to figure out.

The Melges 14 , D-Zero and RS Aero are clearly superior boats to the Laser.

And of these three, the RS Aero is now being sailed in many.more countries than the Melges 14 and D-Zero.

So the answer is obvious.

The World Sailing bureaucrats will chose the Finn.

 

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44 minutes ago, tillerman said:

This really isn't hard to figure out.

The Melges 14 , D-Zero and RS Aero are clearly superior boats to the Laser.

And of these three, the RS Aero is now being sailed in many.more countries than the Melges 14 and D-Zero.

So the answer is obvious.

The World Sailing bureaucrats will chose the Finn.

 

Sorry, dude.  I know how much you've enjoyed your RS Aero.  I sure hope they don't ruin the class for you.

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4 hours ago, torrid said:

Sorry, dude.  I know how much you've enjoyed your RS Aero.  I sure hope they don't ruin the class for you.

Thanks torrid. While I am tempted to root for the RS Aero against all other classes in almost any ranking, I do have serious concerns that gaining Olympic status wold actually be a backward step for the class.

I see the Laser Class has come out fighting, citing among other things the number of countries which participate in the Laser Olympic qualification events and questioning whether any of the possible Laser-replacement classes could achieve anywhere near this number by the time the qualifications for Paris 2024 start.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2018/10/03/saving-the-sport-of-sailing-in-the-olympics/

2016-Olympic-Qualification-Participation-Class-Comparison-Total.jpg.9ba801d4f45dccfc5bb0a1e34899b97b.jpg

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I see that the press release says 8 classes made submissions, does anyone know what the other 4 classes were?

 

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5 hours ago, Tvick1 said:

I see that the press release says 8 classes made submissions, does anyone know what the other 4 classes were?

 

The ISCO?

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Welllllll the Melges has an already up and running junior boat in the Topper...

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10 hours ago, tillerman said:

Thanks torrid. While I am tempted to root for the RS Aero against all other classes in almost any ranking, I do have serious concerns that gaining Olympic status wold actually be a backward step for the class.

I see the Laser Class has come out fighting, citing among other things the number of countries which participate in the Laser Olympic qualification events and questioning whether any of the possible Laser-replacement classes could achieve anywhere near this number by the time the qualifications for Paris 2024 start.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2018/10/03/saving-the-sport-of-sailing-in-the-olympics/

2016-Olympic-Qualification-Participation-Class-Comparison-Total.jpg.9ba801d4f45dccfc5bb0a1e34899b97b.jpg

they do make a compelling argument. does anyone think (beyond dislike of the laser/zealotry for their preferred class) that there's merit to the point that removing the laser will hurt the universality of sailing as an olympic sport? Most classes in this particular group will inherently be more universal than classes like the nacra and 49er due to much lower entry costs, which is very important for small nations. But can they get the numbers? I know the Aero is popular in the US, CAN and UK, but what's its reach outside these nations? lastly, is olympic sailing THAT important to class strength anyways? you'd have to imagine it is only relevant to a small percentage of sailors.

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15 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

they do make a compelling argument. does anyone think (beyond dislike of the laser/zealotry for their preferred class) that there's merit to the point that removing the laser will hurt the universality of sailing as an olympic sport? Most classes in this particular group will inherently be more universal than classes like the nacra and 49er due to much lower entry costs, which is very important for small nations. But can they get the numbers? I know the Aero is popular in the US, CAN and UK, but what's its reach outside these nations? lastly, is olympic sailing THAT important to class strength anyways? you'd have to imagine it is only relevant to a small percentage of sailors.

Last I heard was that RS Aeros have spread to nearly 50 countries, including many European countries, Australia, New Zealand and a bunch of countries in Central and South America and Asia. Of course it doesn't yet have the global penetration of the Laser class, but it's doing pretty well for a class that's only 4 years old. 

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44 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

they do make a compelling argument. does anyone think (beyond dislike of the laser/zealotry for their preferred class) that there's merit to the point that removing the laser will hurt the universality of sailing as an olympic sport? Most classes in this particular group will inherently be more universal than classes like the nacra and 49er due to much lower entry costs, which is very important for small nations. But can they get the numbers? I know the Aero is popular in the US, CAN and UK, but what's its reach outside these nations? lastly, is olympic sailing THAT important to class strength anyways? you'd have to imagine it is only relevant to a small percentage of sailors.

In my mind, when you have the Olympic status a class stands to gain knowledge capital by having top-tier sailors and coaches working with the boat.  Then through clinics and demonstrations the best techniques are trickled down to the masses.  I'm not sure how big of a deal this is, but I do know that the Laser is the only boat/class I'm aware of that has at least two training facilities dedicated to learning how to sail the boat (international sailing academy and cabarete).  Not sure what the other classes have to offer.

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I've sailed all four of the entries, and I think your odds are about right. (I'd just quibble with the order of the bottom two, the Melges and the D-zero. While the D-zero is unquestionably the superior of those two for racing, its lesser reach and name recognition, and a much smaller manufacturer, will likely keep it in 4th place.) If based solely on design and performance, the Aero would be the hands-down favorite. But I'm assuming that your projected odds also factor in the momentum and current proliferation of the Laser, which might elevate it to the top position in the eyes of the imaginary bookies.

Tillerman and dgmckim point out that the Laser class makes the only case they can make, not that the Laser is the better boat, but rather that there are simply a lot of them. But this argument could be used forever for whichever boat attempts to dethrone the Laser, from now until the foreseeable future, forever perpetuating the status quo. What's more, the crux of that argument, that Laser has a large number of qualifying events, will fall apart in any transition to a new boat. If, or rather when, a boat replaces the Laser, it will not happen overnight. The boats are similar enough that an expert in one is quickly an expert in another. The top of the Aero fleets, based on their recent World Championship in Weymouth, are current and former top Laser sailors. During a transition, even Olympic-bound sailors might well continue to compete in Laser events until the number of alternative events rises, and doing so would hardly need to derail their campaign. As for the economics of swapping out Lasers for their replacement, at the top of the sport the cost will be a rounding error. Laser campaigners already replace their hulls nearly every season (mainly because the old-technology polyester resin used in Lasers is hydrophilic, so the hulls quickly gain weight), and the cost difference between a laser hull and another will be negligible in comparison to all the other costs of a campaign.

 

As for the issue of the Olympics damaging a newer class, RS Sailing appears to have taken that concern to heart in their submission, and have come up with a brilliant solution. The manufacturer would develop two new rig sizes, one for men and one for women, which would be different than any of the 3 rig sizes now in use. They might, as an example, develop an Aero 6 and an Aero 8, to be used only for the Olympics. That will have the tendency to partition the class into the Olympic-bound and everyone else, but without discouraging top sailors from still competing in the non-Olympic classes if they choose to. What's more, Aero sailors who decide to campaign for the Olympics would need only a sail and the bottom section of a mast to convert their boat. Such a strategy would help retain the Corinthian spirit in that majority of Aero regattas that would be sailed by mere mortals. 

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As I have said before, and in other threads, I believe the big advantage of having "your" boat be the Olympic boat is the number of good used boats it brings into the used boat market. With used boats available the cost of entry is lower. Even if it's 2K less that is sometimes enough to get a new sailor in the class or have an existing sailor upgrade to a newer boat and then they sell their older boat on down the line to a newer or new member to the class.

You have training centers that buy new boats and qualifying events that buy fleets of new boats for use as charter boats that are sometimes available for sale after just a week of racing. No such animal for the RS Aero unless you find the guy that was drunk at the boat show, bought a boat, sailed it a few times and realized it's wet and flips over and now wants to sell it! :lol:

 

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I don’t think you’re up to speed. The Aero has used charter boats for sale at all of its events that use them, which is most of them. 

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My odds were based on about 30 seconds of thought.

- The Laser has squatters rights in innumerable ways, and choosing it again is the easy way out.  Also, it seems the Laser's anti-trust issue seems to have been dealt with (right?)which was one of the main reasons the boat was frowned upon.

- The Aero is certainly the best update of the Laser, and represents a modern design and thought process - it's pretty  hip (except for the Dacron sail). But it will be tough to counter the Laser arguments. One hurdle is the French would have a helluva time supporting a British boat! Not sure if the local country has any say other than one vote, but I note there were only 4 French boats at the Carnac World's last year and only one actually raced.

- The Devoti has the sex appeal, but too limited in scope and numbers.

- The Melges looks good to me, but won't get much Euro-attention.

And I have no dog in this fight. My Laser is for sale. 

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Curious/off topic: are the alternative boats significantly faster?

Having bitten the forbidden apple of modern foilers, the rigs look more modern than the laser, but fairly behind state of play. 

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15 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

Curious/off topic: are the alternative boats significantly faster?

Having bitten the forbidden apple of modern foilers, the rigs look more modern than the laser, but fairly behind state of play. 

2018 RYA Portsmouth Yardsticks

RS Aero 9 - 1019
D-Zero - 1029
RS Aero 7 - 1068
Laser - 1098
RS Aero 5 - 1129
Laser Radial - 1142

No published RYA Portsmouth Yardstick for the Melges 14.

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If Uk py returns are to be believed, the new boats are 6 or 7% faster. Not a quantum leap but a bit. More importantly I expect they all offer a substantially better “user experience” in their own different ways, to use the modern expression.

Also operating costs would be lower I would venture. Perhaps greater pride of ownership - subjective I know. 

Rigs are all, again, productionised / value engineered interpretations of state of the art unstayed slow boat s/h rigs, and all completely suitable for that role, again with their own little peculiarities. Their operational roles are far far different to foiling boats, and the associated rigs are consequently chalk and cheese. The laser pretenders rigs  cost about half as much As say a moth rig of almost identical size.

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3 hours ago, bill4 said:

My odds were based on about 30 seconds of thought.

- The Aero is certainly the best update of the Laser, and represents a modern design and thought process - it's pretty  hip (except for the Dacron sail). But it will be tough to counter the Laser arguments. One hurdle is the French would have a helluva time supporting a British boat!

1

In Europe, all Lasers are built in the United Kingdom, and the builder, LaserPerformance has its headquarters/office in the U.K. too.

Clearly 30 seconds wasn't enough....

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Oh my. The Laser is a Canadian boat with many foreign copies. And French is Canada’s second official language. I think 30 seconds was enough to kick start the conversation. Where would you put the odds?

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I just looked up the d zero. I hope it wins

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12 hours ago, dsolnick said:

I've sailed all four of the entries, and I think your odds are about right. (I'd just quibble with the order of the bottom two, the Melges and the D-zero. While the D-zero is unquestionably the superior of those two for racing, its lesser reach and name recognition, and a much smaller manufacturer, will likely keep it in 4th place.) If based solely on design and performance, the Aero would be the hands-down favorite. But I'm assuming that your projected odds also factor in the momentum and current proliferation of the Laser, which might elevate it to the top position in the eyes of the imaginary bookies.

Tillerman and dgmckim point out that the Laser class makes the only case they can make, not that the Laser is the better boat, but rather that there are simply a lot of them. But this argument could be used forever for whichever boat attempts to dethrone the Laser, from now until the foreseeable future, forever perpetuating the status quo. What's more, the crux of that argument, that Laser has a large number of qualifying events, will fall apart in any transition to a new boat. If, or rather when, a boat replaces the Laser, it will not happen overnight. The boats are similar enough that an expert in one is quickly an expert in another. The top of the Aero fleets, based on their recent World Championship in Weymouth, are current and former top Laser sailors. During a transition, even Olympic-bound sailors might well continue to compete in Laser events until the number of alternative events rises, and doing so would hardly need to derail their campaign. As for the economics of swapping out Lasers for their replacement, at the top of the sport the cost will be a rounding error. Laser campaigners already replace their hulls nearly every season (mainly because the old-technology polyester resin used in Lasers is hydrophilic, so the hulls quickly gain weight), and the cost difference between a laser hull and another will be negligible in comparison to all the other costs of a campaign.

 

As for the issue of the Olympics damaging a newer class, RS Sailing appears to have taken that concern to heart in their submission, and have come up with a brilliant solution. The manufacturer would develop two new rig sizes, one for men and one for women, which would be different than any of the 3 rig sizes now in use. They might, as an example, develop an Aero 6 and an Aero 8, to be used only for the Olympics. That will have the tendency to partition the class into the Olympic-bound and everyone else, but without discouraging top sailors from still competing in the non-Olympic classes if they choose to. What's more, Aero sailors who decide to campaign for the Olympics would need only a sail and the bottom section of a mast to convert their boat. Such a strategy would help retain the Corinthian spirit in that majority of Aero regattas that would be sailed by mere mortals. 

Nicely stated!!!

Areo seems to have a plan for managing the Corinthian versus Olympic demographics.  I wonder if a ready supply of used cheap oversized Olympic sails skews the local scene... but I think you have a chance at starting local fleets.   You can't find much evidence that the Nacra 17 has generated local or regional Corinthian fleets with their World Sailing controlled class and marketing approach... so good luck to Areo 

 

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17 hours ago, dsolnick said:

I've sailed all four of the entries, and I think your odds are about right. (I'd just quibble with the order of the bottom two, the Melges and the D-zero. While the D-zero is unquestionably the superior of those two for racing, its lesser reach and name recognition, and a much smaller manufacturer, will likely keep it in 4th place.)

Sorry but I think that is US-centric view of the world. Elsewhere, Italy aside, Melges has little marketing presence and Devoti has more name-recognition amongst dinghy sailors.

I own an Aero and even noting the alternate Olympic rig sizes proposal, I think I'd favour the blessing of Olympic selection to fall on another lucky class.

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You’re right that Devoti is non-existent in the US and quite existent in Europe. But Melges has worldwide reach and recognition through its sportboats. The jury is still out on how well its dinghy will proliferate, especially in North America where it originates. As for the design of the Melges 14, last place is where it belongs. Their own marketing shows it to be as much of a cruiser for two as it is a racer for one. It’s unclear why they submitted for the Olympics. 

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1 hour ago, dsolnick said:

It’s unclear why they submitted for the Olympics. 

You’re talking about it.... no such thing as bad publicity. I bet more people know about it now that a few days ago. I hadn’t really known anything about the d zero before yesterday but decided to look it up because it kept getting mentioned, now I think I like it more than the aero. Someone should be trying to build up a fleet of them here in the USA. Good marketing move if nothing else

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 Laser sail and spars on a contemporary design ~ early trials Downunder 

JFC, is there no end to the stupid ideas?

What exactly is the market there?  
People who own brand new laser spars and sails that are looking for a completely different hull to put old shitty spars and sails on?
Seriously, does anyone think about these things before posting?


Now something that *is* happening in Australia with the Laser/ILCA and rigs is a lot more interesting.
Imagine that idea will get a shot in front of World Sailing.

If you notice ILCA is the group putting the Laser forward for ‘re-bid’ - not LP.  

 

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I'm surprised the field didn't open up for a more challenging boat -- something like a Musto Performance Skiff or similar. Olympians can clearly handle challenging boats like a 49er.

Perhaps it's for a separate class -- high performance single-handed.

The new boats deliver on a current view of the laser, and that's great. Still, it's new answers to an old question. There's new exciting questions on the table 

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So trialing a Laser configuration (sail and spars) is a stupid idea is it ~ perhaps I am incredibly dense ~ where exactly is the stupidity ?

 

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4 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

I'm surprised the field didn't open up for a more challenging boat -- something like a Musto Performance Skiff or similar. Olympians can clearly handle challenging boats like a 49er.

Perhaps it's for a separate class -- high performance single-handed.

The new boats deliver on a current view of the laser, and that's great. Still, it's new answers to an old question. There's new exciting questions on the table 

It's a matter of availability to increase the number of countries participating.

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29 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

 Laser sail and spars on a contemporary design ~ early trials Downunder 

JFC, is there no end to the stupid ideas?

What exactly is the market there?  
People who own brand new laser spars and sails that are looking for a completely different hull to put old shitty spars and sails on?
Seriously, does anyone think about these things before posting?


Now something that *is* happening in Australia with the Laser/ILCA and rigs is a lot more interesting.
Imagine that idea will get a shot in front of World Sailing.

If you notice ILCA is the group putting the Laser forward for ‘re-bid’ - not LP.  

 

 

3 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

So trialing a Laser configuration (sail and spars) is a stupid idea is it ~ perhaps I am incredibly dense ~ where exactly is the stupidity ?

 

Whatever this boat is, I would assume the Laser rig is being used mainly to evaluate the hull and that there is a modern rig planned.

I'm saying this as a life-long Laser sailor, but recycling the hull with a new rig or recycling the rig with a new hull is just silly.  There's fifty years of technology evolution which allows for a much better boat.

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Correct : the the hull configuration being longer at 4.7 metres and at a beam of 1.95 metres easily stepped out on the Laser ~  as seen in the video, and yes there has been evalution employing contemporary sail and spar configurations.

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

You’re talking about it.... no such thing as bad publicity. I bet more people know about it now that a few days ago. I hadn’t really known anything about the d zero before yesterday but decided to look it up because it kept getting mentioned, now I think I like it more than the aero. Someone should be trying to build up a fleet of them here in the USA. Good marketing move if nothing else

While it’s the norm to express strong opinions about boats here in SA (like everywhere else), you might want to sail them beforehand.

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

I hadn’t really known anything about the d zero before yesterday but decided to look it up because it kept getting mentioned, now I think I like it more than the aero. Someone should be trying to build up a fleet of them here in the USA. 

Someone should build a fleet of D-Zeros in the USA.

I agree.

Why not you @dgmckim?

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7 minutes ago, dsolnick said:

While it’s the norm to express strong opinions about boats here in SA (like everywhere else), you might want to sail them beforehand.

My point was that even if it’s a long shot bid it’s still worthwhile because it gets the boat into a conversation. If I am introduced to something I wasn’t aware of because it’s in consideration for olympic sailing, I’m sure others will be too. It’s still a positive for melges and devoti if people like me might check out their stuff and seriously consider it for the next boat upgrade. Obviously I should sail it before considering a purchase but the question was ‘why even bother submitting a proposal if it’s gojng to be laser or aero’. I can see positives for both companies 

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I think you missed my point (and definitely misquoted me). As I said, the Melges 14, by their own admission in their marketing materials, is a cruiser as much as a racer. That's also my own experience with the boat. One would not expect that to be a recipe for a submittal intended for the Olympics.

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6 minutes ago, dsolnick said:

I think you missed my point (and definitely misquoted me). As I said, the Melges 14, by their own admission in their marketing materials, is a cruiser as much as a racer. That's also my own experience with the boat. One would not expect that to be a recipe for a submittal intended for the Olympics.

You are correct that I misquoted. Sorry

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Well I imagine the decision is being made about now in a spreadsheet in World sailing Offices, without the people responsible knowing what the decision is.  I reckon A little committee will be creating a scoresheet with umpteen categories that each boat will be marked against. The relative value they put on different factors will effectively define the winner. 

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3 hours ago, dsolnick said:

I think you missed my point (and definitely misquoted me). As I said, the Melges 14, by their own admission in their marketing materials, is a cruiser as much as a racer. That's also my own experience with the boat. One would not expect that to be a recipe for a submittal intended for the Olympics.

I suspect that all of these boats are at least as capable of cruising off the beach with one or more passengers as the incumbent laser. Versatility is a good thing non? 

 

3 hours ago, JimC said:

Well I imagine the decision is being made about now in a spreadsheet in World sailing Offices, without the people responsible knowing what the decision is.  I reckon A little committee will be creating a scoresheet with umpteen categories that each boat will be marked against. The relative value they put on different factors will effectively define the winner. 

I’d have thought that the big highly Inauditable paired scoring sheets will be in force after the sailing trial, where sailing performance will probably account for a third of the result. 

At present it’s just a matter of whether to accept the recommendation to have a trial isn’t it? Or does even that require  a complex inauditable scoring matrix?! :-)

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8 minutes ago, Daniel Holman said:

suspect that all of these boats are at least as capable of cruising off the beach with one or more passengers as the incumbent laser. Versatility is a good thing non? 

Of the four, only the Melges is designed for a passenger. There’s nothing wrong with Melges targeting such users, but it compromises the boat for use as an Olympic single-hander. 

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I can say that Zero was always designed to accommodate a passenger. Not a primary modus operandi, but for that to be an acceptable experience. 

Suspect similar with m14 is it’s a singlehander but it’s a bigger boat I think. 

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

Well I imagine the decision is being made about now in a spreadsheet in World sailing Offices, without the people responsible knowing what the decision is.  I reckon A little committee will be creating a scoresheet with umpteen categories that each boat will be marked against. The relative value they put on different factors will effectively define the winner. 

There is some insight into the technical categories on the scoresheet in this article. https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2018/05/singlehanded-dinghies-for-2024-olympics.html
 

Quote

The technical requirements by World Sailing, against which scoring will take place, are as follows:
- Equipment development within the Olympic cycle: no development scores the highest here
- Athletic ability: the most demanding equipment scores the highest
- Height variable: lowest impact of sailor’s height to be score the highest
- Weight variable: lowest impact of sailor’s weight to be scored the highest
- Durability variable: highest durability to be scored the highest
- Other costs variable: transportation, launching, measurement and other such costs should be kept as low as possible
- Environmental impact variable: most environmentally friendly equipment to be scored the highest

So how would you score the 4 candidates against these requirements?

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Not sure how a sailing trial answer those questions?

Long term trial a la car magazine maybe. 

To my mind, most of those criteria offer no differentiation between the contenders. 

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34 minutes ago, dsolnick said:

Of the four, only the Melges is designed for a passenger. There’s nothing wrong with Melges targeting such users, but it compromises the boat for use as an Olympic single-hander. 

Wasn't the Laser originally designed to be a car topped day sailor???

The original Vang was 3-to-1 correct? Of course that was probably considered more than enough back then.

 

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45 minutes ago, Hobie Dog said:

Wasn't the Laser originally designed to be a car topped day sailor???

The original Vang was 3-to-1 correct? Of course that was probably considered more than enough back then.

 


Ian Bruce's original brief to Bruce Kirby for the boat that eventually became the Laser was...

Quote

 A “fun boat” to suit recreational sailors. It had to be simple and cheap, easy to car-top, and fast enough to attract people moving up from the Sunfish-type “boardboats.”

And yes, the vang was 3:1. Perfectly adequate as long as you stood up in the boat and bounced on the boom as you tightened the vang.

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[URL=This is the policy doc]http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/AntitrustPolicyFinalApproved-[23500].pdf[/URL] that's behind this. Worth reading. Seems the criteria to be judged on are going to be public. There's some interesting stuff in there.This para might not appeal to you-know-who...

Through the contract, World Sailing is committed to complying with its obligations under all applicable antitrust and competition laws. Manufacturers and suppliers agree that if World Sailing considers that they have consistently breached contractual quality and service levels (or a breach is not remedied within 30 days of direction to do so) then they can be required to license all necessary rights to a third party selected by World Sailing through objective criteria. This licence will be on fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory terms to enable the new third party to manufacture and supply the Class equipment to customers as an alternative source of supply to the Class supplier. Any dispute over this licensing is referred to an independently appointed expert for determination.

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

There is some insight into the technical categories on the scoresheet in this article. https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2018/05/singlehanded-dinghies-for-2024-olympics.html
 

So how would you score the 4 candidates against these requirements?

The criteria listed on that website only make up 15% of the full, weighted assessment. Full details of the assessment criteria are at http://sailing.org/tools/documents/ReevaluationEQCriteriaFINAL-[24052].pdf

On those criteria, there is no logical reason why the Laser should win - it arguably has the best global distribution network but is behind on probably all technical criteria. Incumbency will be worth something though, even if the criteria don't state that explicitly. 

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On 10/5/2018 at 1:35 AM, dsolnick said:

As for the issue of the Olympics damaging a newer class, RS Sailing appears to have taken that concern to heart in their submission, and have come up with a brilliant solution. The manufacturer would develop two new rig sizes, one for men and one for women, which would be different than any of the 3 rig sizes now in use. 

Are the submissions published anywhere? I haven't been able to find them, but this comment suggests that you've seen at least the RS submission.

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2 hours ago, redstar said:

Are the submissions published anywhere? I haven't been able to find them, but this comment suggests that you've seen at least the RS submission.

The info about RS Sailing's plan to have two new rig sizes for the Olympic RS Aeros was reported in the last paragraph of post #11 in this thread. 

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  • JimC
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  • Interests:Dinghies, especially box rule classes.

Well I imagine the decision is being made about now in a spreadsheet in World sailing Offices, without the people responsible knowing what the decision is.  I reckon A little committee will be creating a scoresheet with umpteen categories that each boat will be marked against. The relative value they put on different factors will effectively define the winner. 

And then the part that matters begins...   politics!

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2 hours ago, Tcatman said:

And then the part that matters begins...   politics!

maybe.

I think there are a couple of changes. I *think* (if I'm not getting confused with the RYA) that WS has had to put through (under legal pressure) governance changes that have tended to strengthen the executive and weaken the power of the council. And in any case if you are introducing fair competitive tendering to save your ass from being burned with anti trust regs, said ass isn't going to be flame proofed if you then discard the whole tender process and just pick the one you like most.

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Does anybody know the composition of the selection committee?

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4 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Does anybody know the composition of the selection committee?

Mostly water

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Nicely done! Haha!

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26 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Does anybody know the composition of the selection committee?

As far as I can figure it out there is a Working Party who makes a recommendation to the Equipment Committee who makes a recommendation to the World Sailing Council. The Working Party is Scott Perry (Vice President), Yann Rocherieux (Chairman, Athletes’ Commission), Dina Kowalyshyn (Chairman, Equipment Committee), Jurgen Cluytmans (Equipment Committee), Ana Gamulin (Constitution Committee), Carlos de Beltran (Director of Technical & Offshore) and Jaime Navarro (Technical Specialist).

Source is  http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/BoardRecommendationtoCouncil-[24422].pdf

I was wondering what happened to Carlos Beltran after he retired.
240px-Carlos_Beltr%C3%A1n_in_2017_(cropp

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Quality group. All highly intelligent with a great blend of skills, experience and knowledge. All on Rastegar's payroll...

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

All on Rastegar's payroll...

You should explain that remark a little more.

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

You should explain that remark a little more.

Just an attempt at a little conspiracy theory humour. Satire if you will.

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I don't think that kind of remark directed at volunteers in our sport is very humourous. Unless actually true.

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I am aware of that anonymous blog from the period when the author used to post on SA and taken as a whole, I find it contemptible. If the author has actual substantive evidence,  he should stand up and present it.  I do not approve of the Gazprom sponsorship but the case that it is corrupt in its relationship with World Sailing is not convincingly made.  I'm not going to get drawn into further discussion here as it is a worthless distraction from an interesting topic.

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I checked out the RS Aero and Melges 14 at the Annapolis Show yesterday. If interested in my take read below, if not carry on...

 

Both looked nice and well built. They were not directly side by side but the Melges looks like a much bigger boat. To the point it looks like it's almost designed to be sailed two up, certainly two HS sailors would be very comfortable in the boat. Definitely wider with two hiking straps and looked like it would be very comfortable to hike on. It's lighter than a Laser but not by a lot. Sales guy said they are 112 lbs., Laser hull only (no spars) is 130. I don't recall if he said that 112 was with spars and sail or just the boat??? Both boats had their rigs in but no sail up. The Melges does have a laminate sail versus Dacron for the RS Aero so the Melges does get a little nod there for "coolness" factor but in reality for a 14' boat Dacron is fine and actually probably a better sail material choice. I even went back to Dacron for my Buccaneer 18 main (jib is laminate) as I think it works better in the boat and The Bucc is a much bigger mainsail/boat.
 

Without sailing either boat I give the nod to the RS Aero. A little smaller and if you  believe the numbers it is a faster boat. WAY lighter at 66 lbs., I think that is hull weight. When we picked her up, yep she is about half the weight as a Laser! Sales guy says he can car top it alone by lifting by the hiking strap. I believe it but I think I would still ask for help as it would be so easy anyways. Also the design is stackable. They stack 3 together going to their regattas. Certainly would be easy to double roof stack and not have to deal with a trailer, big plus there! All that being said I think the biggest advantage the RS Aero has over the Laser and Melges is they got rid of that stupid sleeve sail. Sail goes up like a regular main on a halyard. So coming in to a lee dock or shore you can drop the main AND before going out you can totally rig the boat and not have the main up. Then go change, skippers meeting, whatever and not have your sail get flogged! Nice!

 

And I stand corrected the RS Aero guy said they do have charter boats available at certain regattas. I am going to have to take them up on that and go check out the boat and fleet. Melges guy did not mention about charter boats, but I also did not ask.

 

Problem is my Girlfriend says if I buy one I have to buy one for here as well! LOL :)

 

But...

As my GF pointed out the Laser is still the boat, at least here on the Chesapeake. Like this weekend coming up we have just a short drive to Fishing Bay and get to race in a 50 boat fleet. That's tough to beat!

 

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On 10/6/2018 at 5:38 PM, tillerman said:

As far as I can figure it out there is a Working Party who makes a recommendation to the Equipment Committee who makes a recommendation to the World Sailing Council. The Working Party is Scott Perry (Vice President), Yann Rocherieux (Chairman, Athletes’ Commission), Dina Kowalyshyn (Chairman, Equipment Committee), Jurgen Cluytmans (Equipment Committee), Ana Gamulin (Constitution Committee), Carlos de Beltran (Director of Technical & Offshore) and Jaime Navarro (Technical Specialist).

Source is  http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/BoardRecommendationtoCouncil-[24422].pdf

I was wondering what happened to Carlos Beltran after he retired.
240px-Carlos_Beltr%C3%A1n_in_2017_(cropp

Maybe Dina learned something from the N17 fubar process!!  The pitfalls were readily seen as that process got going. As a member of the technical committee  She had to recuse herself from the actual selection  process itself because her friend Caroljn Brower had a boat in the trials..    Nevertheless.... they (the technical committee) were convinced that ISAF could supervise the final roll out of the N17 from just two prototype platforms.... no rigs  and the resume of Pete Melvin et al.    oops.....   oh well..      Lets just hope they pick a boat that is fully baked this time.

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2 hours ago, Hobie Dog said:

I checked out the RS Aero and Melges 14 at the Annapolis Show yesterday.

 

How does the Melges look up close? In images it doesn't looks as good as the others, to me. Row away factor counts a little with dinghies too.

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7 hours ago, Hobie Dog said:

I checked out the RS Aero and Melges 14 at the Annapolis Show yesterday. If interested in my take read below, if not carry on...

 

Both looked nice and well built. They were not directly side by side but the Melges looks like a much bigger boat. To the point it looks like it's almost designed to be sailed two up, certainly two HS sailors would be very comfortable in the boat. Definitely wider with two hiking straps and looked like it would be very comfortable to hike on. It's lighter than a Laser but not by a lot. Sales guy said they are 112 lbs., Laser hull only (no spars) is 130. I don't recall if he said that 112 was with spars and sail or just the boat??? Both boats had their rigs in but no sail up. The Melges does have a laminate sail versus Dacron for the RS Aero so the Melges does get a little nod there for "coolness" factor but in reality for a 14' boat Dacron is fine and actually probably a better sail material choice. I even went back to Dacron for my Buccaneer 18 main (jib is laminate) as I think it works better in the boat and The Bucc is a much bigger mainsail/boat.
 

Without sailing either boat I give the nod to the RS Aero. A little smaller and if you  believe the numbers it is a faster boat. WAY lighter at 66 lbs., I think that is hull weight. When we picked her up, yep she is about half the weight as a Laser! Sales guy says he can car top it alone by lifting by the hiking strap. I believe it but I think I would still ask for help as it would be so easy anyways. Also the design is stackable. They stack 3 together going to their regattas. Certainly would be easy to double roof stack and not have to deal with a trailer, big plus there! All that being said I think the biggest advantage the RS Aero has over the Laser and Melges is they got rid of that stupid sleeve sail. Sail goes up like a regular main on a halyard. So coming in to a lee dock or shore you can drop the main AND before going out you can totally rig the boat and not have the main up. Then go change, skippers meeting, whatever and not have your sail get flogged! Nice!

 

And I stand corrected the RS Aero guy said they do have charter boats available at certain regattas. I am going to have to take them up on that and go check out the boat and fleet. Melges guy did not mention about charter boats, but I also did not ask.

 

Problem is my Girlfriend says if I buy one I have to buy one for here as well! LOL :)

 

But...

As my GF pointed out the Laser is still the boat, at least here on the Chesapeake. Like this weekend coming up we have just a short drive to Fishing Bay and get to race in a 50 boat fleet. That's tough to beat!

 

It is true that you can't race in a 50 boat RS Aero fleet in your part of the world...yet... but nobody says you have to stop sailing Lasers at local regattas if you buy an RS Aero. Starting a new class in your area and helping it to grow and expand is something that is very rewarding in its own right. Somebody is going to kick-start the RS Aero Class on the Chesapeake Bay. Why not you?

Details of upcoming RS Aero regattas in North American can be found at https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=events&rg=North America. Most of them have charter Aeros available. Go to one (or more) of the regattas in Florida this winter with your girlfriend  and charter RS Aeros. You won't regret it.

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

nobody says you have to stop sailing Lasers at local regattas if you buy an RS Aero.

My wife...

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21 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

How does the Melges look up close? In images it doesn't looks as good as the others, to me. Row away factor counts a little with dinghies too.

Like I said both boats looked like they are built well. Melges definitely looked bigger and it is. The bow is a flat deck similar to a Laser. The Aero has more of a recessed bow deck. If I had to pick one on pure looks alone I don't know that would be a tough call. The completely open transom on the Melges does look really cool! That being said the drainage flaps, not sure what to call them, on Aero are nice as a dropped glove, sunglass, hat or beer can in the cockpit has a chance on staying aboard.

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18 hours ago, tillerman said:

It is true that you can't race in a 50 boat RS Aero fleet in your part of the world...yet... but nobody says you have to stop sailing Lasers at local regattas if you buy an RS Aero. Starting a new class in your area and helping it to grow and expand is something that is very rewarding in its own right. Somebody is going to kick-start the RS Aero Class on the Chesapeake Bay. Why not you?

Details of upcoming RS Aero regattas in North American can be found at https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=events&rg=North America. Most of them have charter Aeros available. Go to one (or more) of the regattas in Florida this winter with your girlfriend  and charter RS Aeros. You won't regret it.

Certainly true about racing in both fleets, now finding the time to race in both fleets is the challenge! :)

Thanks on the regatta link. Nice thing about doing a charter is it is easy to fly down for a few days and race. Definitely considering it!

 

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56 minutes ago, Hobie Dog said:

Certainly true about racing in both fleets, now finding the time to race in both fleets is the challenge! :)

Thanks on the regatta link. Nice thing about doing a charter is it is easy to fly down for a few days and race. Definitely considering it!

 

There should be some more RS Aero regattas in Florida posted soon, including the Sarasota Sailing Squadron One Design Midwinters in March.

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I got to see the Melges and the Aero today, pretty cool boats. I might get to try the Aero next spring...

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..but what about longevity? Will the Aero stand up to the use and abuse by the top laser sailors? Clearly 25 kgs of GRP in the Laser vs. the Aero must mean something in terms of strength.

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2 hours ago, sprayblond said:

..but what about longevity? Will the Aero stand up to the use and abuse by the top laser sailors? Clearly 25 kgs of GRP in the Laser vs. the Aero must mean something in terms of strength.

Love it when newbies post about things they don't understand.:D The Laser is built from polyester resin and chopped strand mat. The Aero is built from epoxy resign  with woven cloth including carbon fiber and is foam sandwich construction which is all vacuum bagged. The Aero is stronger and will last longer.

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All this talk about the Laser and possible replacement. Nothing about whether the Finn will continue and what will complement it in the new mixed singlehander event. The only classes I see highlighted in the submissions are the Europe & Zoom-8.

 I think there's expected to be an evaluation... what boats will be evaluated? Can't see the D0 or Melges as likely candidates for this. The Aero, perhaps, though from what I've read the Aero-5 competitive weight (60-65 Kg?) is higher than the likely target. I know RS claim that you can sail an aero at 35Kg.. probably true if you don't go out when the wind's in double figures... but the target wind speed for the event runs to 25...

Cheers,

               W.

 

 

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2 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Love it when newbies post about things they don't understand.:D The Laser is built from polyester resin and chopped strand mat. The Aero is built from epoxy resign  with woven cloth including carbon fiber and is foam sandwich construction which is all vacuum bagged. The Aero is stronger and will last longer.

time will tell. how long has the aero been around, anyways? this is a serious question. it's been like 4 years right?

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4 hours ago, dgmckim said:

time will tell. how long has the aero been around, anyways? this is a serious question. it's been like 4 years right?

The RS Aero was launched at the UK Dinghy Show in March 2014.

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..has anyone used the aero like the top laser sailors use the lasers? 6 days a week. Open water- Palma, Granca, Vilamoura. Towing. 20 - 30 knots of wind. 85 kg strong guys hiking max . 

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8 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Love it when newbies post about things they don't understand.:D The Laser is built from polyester resin and chopped strand mat. The Aero is built from epoxy resign  with woven cloth including carbon fiber and is foam sandwich construction which is all vacuum bagged. The Aero is stronger and will last longer.

Pro Laser sailors use the boats more in one month than the leisure sailor does in a year.. But of course, no problems expected. Epoxy and carbon fibre.. OK if I send the repair bills to you A class sailor..? https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=forum&fid=2&tid=7794

 

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9 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

Love it when newbies post about things they don't understand.:D The Laser is built from polyester resin and chopped strand mat. The Aero is built from epoxy resign  with woven cloth including carbon fiber and is foam sandwich construction which is all vacuum bagged. The Aero is stronger and will last longer.

Largely monolithic polyester / choppy i.e Laser is not strong or stiff, but it is robust, especially if engineered to be understressed / underutilised.

Remember also that stiffness attracts load in a dynamic system.

You have to look after sandwich boats, especially if using 200gsm skins aginst bumps and knocks. They aren't "Robust." Should be no issue re global / local  strength if correctly engineered and built carefully /correctly / consistently. An unstayed boat is fundamentally not highly loaded like a stayed boat. You still need to resolve areas like rudder gudgeon attachments mast heels and partners etc.

Still, look at 29ers.  Polyester boats, 5 kts higher top speed and double the righting moment of &eros. Stayed rigs so big point loads and mast compression. The kids that sail them at squad / national level wring their necks for hundreds of days a year and you don't see breakages. Think they stay competitive for a decent period. Admittedly the hulls are not that light.

Of course same can't be said for 49ers, which as I understand it don't last so well. I could guarantee that 5kg more material in the right places would sort that.

Dan

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You just cannot compare the use a 29er gets vs. a 49er. Same with laser radials, 4,7 used by youth vs. a pro full rig sailor. Number of hours of sailing per year, loads from a 85 kg top athlete vs. youth.

 

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OK appreciate 29er and 49er are different boats sailed by different categories of people.

I maintain that many 29ers sees similar "duty" i.e. frequency of use to olympic 49ers.

I would also point out you don't see many guys > 80kg in 49ers. And that top18yo 29er crews especially can have adult levels of strength / size / athleticism.

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Of course the top laser sailors who train those long hours would never race a laser more than a year old, because they go soft. They all get a new boat for big regattas.

The foam boat will never cope with being run aground or bounced off a dock or beach like an old hack laser would but people who do that sort of thing will never notice a soft hull either, there will always be plenty of old lasers for them.

 

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1 hour ago, sprayblond said:

Pro Laser sailors use the boats more in one month than the leisure sailor does in a year.. But of course, no problems expected. Epoxy and carbon fibre.. OK if I send the repair bills to you A class sailor..? https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=forum&fid=2&tid=7794

 

Again, showing your ignorance, as do the links you supply one of which is about a mast collar issue which has nothing to do with the construction we were discussing.

Your comments were about whether the aero was strong enough to handle the abuse of top sailors. Top sailors don't abuse their boats. They look after them very well. They do apply loads to their boats others might not, but the aero is more than strong enough to handle those loads. Dan raises an interesting point about robustness. That might be a point for the off the beach club sailor, but not the pro racer.

Consider the Moth. World class pro sailors subject them to huge loads and when training for major events, "use the boat more in one month as the leisure sailor does in a year", yet they are super light.

Dan - comparing the 29er and 49er is rather a bad choice. Everybody knows the 29er was properly engineered by Ovington while the 49er was built too light from day one.

8 hours ago, dgmckim said:

time will tell. how long has the aero been around, anyways? this is a serious question. it's been like 4 years right?

How long do you think you can use a Laser? There is a reason why the top guys change them regularly.

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Most top laser sailors change boats regularly because its a convenient / cheap way to renew many of the crappy bits that wear out quickly - spars, sails foils. Its easy to buy and sell boats  - a fluid market. Also, at worlds you charter a new boat. You cna charter boats anywhere.

Plenty of guys back in the day, Scheidt included, ran boats a decade old (with regularly replaced parts!) with no loss of stellar performance.

Think that is less common these days given the disposable society!


Dan

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32 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

How long do you think you can use a Laser? There is a reason why the top guys change them regularly.

I still use my 1996 Laser. It's biggest problem is the person driving it. I think most of the good sailors charter at big races anyways (as was stated above). at any rate, i could do without the condescending statements. All I wanted to know is how long the Aero has been around. 

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29er was properly engineered by Ovington.

That's a interesting statement!  Care to clarify it please.

49er was "built to light from day one", a even more interesting statement, love to hear your thoughts on that also?

    Jb

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