Piginwater

Letting go of tiller, cookies ensue.

Recommended Posts

I've read hundreds of times over the years "if your boat is properly trimmed, you'll have a little bit of weather helm. If you let go of the tiller, it will turn into the wind on it's own and stop"

So today I was out playing around on my Merit 22. Probably 8 knot winds, nothing too exciting. Headed up close hauled, I let go of the tiller. Soon the tiller was all the way over, and the boat spins through the wind, the genoa backs, the boat turns downwind, jibes, spins upwind again, and repeats. Just endless cookies. 

This was under the main and a Genoa, probably 140%.

Have I been lied to, or is my boat/sail balance just really out of whack?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but don’t worry about it. Having a boat that readily turns is way more fun than those old stable boats that “track”....that don’t turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sail boat flat, little less mast rake, jib in a bit, main down a bit more on traveller etc., etc., lots you can play with if weather helm is extreme, but a little helm is good…gives the boat "feel"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was once sailing the Commodores boat on a long hot summer day. He had asked me to take his identical twin granddaughters out for a sail as they were in town on spring break from the all girl college they attended. They had brought along a few of their friends from college. I was a little surprised at three things, the amount of Cherry Fizz coolers they brought aboard and were consuming and how little they were all wearing exposing great amounts of their very fit tan bodies and how bad this boats rig  was set up since it just had a new rig put in it. Anyway we were sailing upwind in about 8-10 knots of breeze when three of the girls who were being very friendly to each other in the back of the cockpit fell over knocking the tiller out of my hand. The boat had so much weather helm from the poorly tuned rig that the boat crashed tacked and everyone ended up in a big pile in the cockpit with bodies, bikinis parts strewn everywhere. My eye got slightly hurt as one of their very perky boobs smashed into my face. Luckily none of us were hurt though there was a bit of giggling and moaning going on. I quickly got the boat back on its feet and sorted out. The girls thought this was fun,then all of a sudden three of them started to ..... oh wait this is a family site

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Take the blue pill and go back to weather helm, take the red pill and....
Image result for have i been lied to meme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a previous Merit 22 owner.  Does your boat still have that Mickey mouse traveler on the stern pulpit?  If so install a real traveler in the cockpit.  The boat will be easier to sail since you won't have to look backwards to trim the main and you will have a long traveler track to allow you to get the right angle.  This will also allow you to cut a foot off the length of the boom which is too close to the backstay in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

always put up your largest headsail...never reef the main...pull it all in super tight...put the rail and crew in the water,  turn the rudder into a barn door until your hands cramp...luff the sails and do a endless cycle of heeling and rounding up...all while drinking beer and saying how awesome the boat handles...if it is really blowing just use the 150 genoa and plow the front of the boat into the water...find another boat to harass with your incredible match racing skills....scream at some fisherman

break something, get someone hurt...there will be blood

now you are sailing Milwaukee style

*facepalm*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i let go of the tiller all the time....right after i flick the red auto pilot switch on ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, CAN44 said:

sail boat flat, little less mast rake, jib in a bit, main down a bit more on traveller etc., etc., lots you can play with if weather helm is extreme, but a little helm is good…gives the boat "feel"

I’ve also heard that a little bit of weather helm helps offset leeway. I’d be interested if the more informed members could confirm or correct that.

In my adolescence I did some very unsophisticated experiments with an I14 with a tacking center board. With the board tacked to windward and a little weather helm (induced by some gentle mix of sail trim, mast rack and or heel) compensated for by pulling tiller slightly to windward I seemed to be able to almost eliminate leeway.  With the board fixed on the center line and trimmed for neutral helm more pronounced leeway and not noticeably faster (but not really measuring speed well). My conclusion was the small extra lift on the two foils did not cause a noticeable increase in drag and would give better VMG to weather.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, KC375 said:

I’ve also heard that a little bit of weather helm helps offset leeway. I’d be interested if the more informed members could confirm or correct that.

 

In my adolescence I did some very unsophisticated experiments with an I14 with a tacking center board. With the board tacked to windward and a little weather helm (induced by some gentle mix of sail trim, mast rack and or heel) compensated for by pulling tiller slightly to windward I seemed to be able to almost eliminate leeway.  With the board fixed on the center line and trimmed for neutral helm more pronounced leeway and not noticeably faster (but not really measuring speed well). My conclusion was the small extra lift on the two foils did not cause a noticeable increase in drag and would give better VMG to weather.

 

There was a long discussion on this point over in CA. Bob Perry opined, and we mostly agreed, that 4-5 degrees of weather helm helps a lot in terms of pointing and VMG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ishmael said:

There was a long discussion on this point over in CA. Bob Perry opined, and we mostly agreed, that 4-5 degrees of weather helm helps a lot in terms of pointing and VMG.

Thanks, that’s encouraging that people with some expertise came to the same conclusion. I had pretty crude measurement tools in the 70s. I did feel pretty good about my experiments but that might have had something to do with gentle wind, weed, and cold beer out on the lake on a sunny day. As for deeper investigation, at that age I was more interested in studying the bikinis by the club pool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

There was a long discussion on this point over in CA. Bob Perry opined, and we mostly agreed, that 4-5 degrees of weather helm helps a lot in terms of pointing and VMG.

Meaning that the rudder is in additional lift mode (as in addition to the keel) as opposed to drag mode when there is lee helm.  

Lee helm is like a conventional airplane's elevator, in negative incidence compared to the main source of lift.   It allows some automatic maintenance of speed and pitch in an airplane, thus helping the pilot to control the plane.     A tail heavy airplane can be too much for a pilot to handle, without computer stability, at speed.    On a sailboat, weather helm is manageable for a helmsman, as long as the rudder is not too small.

Too much weather helm is drag, lee helm is drag, just a touch of weather helm is fast.

The only time that lee helm is helpful on a sailboat is hove to.

- Stumbling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Piginwater said:

I've read hundreds of times over the years "if your boat is properly trimmed, you'll have a little bit of weather helm. If you let go of the tiller, it will turn into the wind on it's own and stop"

So today I was out playing around on my Merit 22. Probably 8 knot winds, nothing too exciting. Headed up close hauled, I let go of the tiller. Soon the tiller was all the way over, and the boat spins through the wind, the genoa backs, the boat turns downwind, jibes, spins upwind again, and repeats. Just endless cookies. 

This was under the main and a Genoa, probably 140%.

Have I been lied to, or is my boat/sail balance just really out of whack?

How big is the genoa relative to the main? What is the angle of the genoa off centerline (most sheeting angles aim for 8~10 deg).

If the boat goes head-to-wind, the genoa goes aback.

If the genoa goes aback, unless something else counters the huge force it generates, the boat is going to spin around thru the other tack

So, you've been lied to about at least part of what you say, but you should have known about this....... or is this the first time you've sailed a boat with a big genoa??

;)

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Piginwater said:

I've read hundreds of times over the years "if your boat is properly trimmed, you'll have a little bit of weather helm. If you let go of the tiller, it will turn into the wind on it's own and stop"

So today I was out playing around on my Merit 22. Probably 8 knot winds, nothing too exciting. Headed up close hauled, I let go of the tiller. Soon the tiller was all the way over, and the boat spins through the wind, the genoa backs, the boat turns downwind, jibes, spins upwind again, and repeats. Just endless cookies. 

This was under the main and a Genoa, probably 140%.

Have I been lied to, or is my boat/sail balance just really out of whack?

Yes, you were lied to.  Those are donuts, not cookies.  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read somewhere that a rough guide to proper weather helm  would be when the tiller is held 1 inch to windward for every foot of tiller length.So ,if your tiller is 4 ft long your tiller hand should be about 4 inches to windward of the boats centerline in order to maintain course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

There was a long discussion on this point over in CA. Bob Perry opined, and we mostly agreed, that 4-5 degrees of weather helm helps a lot in terms of pointing and VMG.

This is an opinion that Jim Teeters and Farr YD came to, as well (independently).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

certain boats with a balanced sailplan can sail with neutral tiller and sail well if the boat has alot of weather helm that is not the case it will round up too fast and flip to the other side also on smaller boats with better agility that is not the case. the boats take too little pressure to turn through the wind. just my opinion but sayin

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

How big is the genoa relative to the main? What is the angle of the genoa off centerline (most sheeting angles aim for 8~10 deg).

If the boat goes head-to-wind, the genoa goes aback.

If the genoa goes aback, unless something else counters the huge force it generates, the boat is going to spin around thru the other tack

So, you've been lied to about at least part of what you say, but you should have known about this....... or is this the first time you've sailed a boat with a big genoa??

;)

FB- Doug

Yes this is my first boat with a genoa of any sort. I'm not sure of the angle.

My gut has been saying that I have way too much weather helm, and most everything is tuned wrong.

5 hours ago, Ringmaster said:

From a previous Merit 22 owner.  Does your boat still have that Mickey mouse traveler on the stern pulpit?  If so install a real traveler in the cockpit.  The boat will be easier to sail since you won't have to look backwards to trim the main and you will have a long traveler track to allow you to get the right angle.  This will also allow you to cut a foot off the length of the boom which is too close to the backstay in my opinion.

It has the stock traveler. It binds every single time I use it, and I have to help it move from side to side. Putting a better traveler system in is on my list of things to do. It's a long list right now though.

The tiller feels really heavy, so something is off. The backstay is not adjustable, and the genoa sheet tracks are kind of funky from the previous owner.

I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert on any sailboat. In general I am at 10 to 20% heel when going upwind, not trying to bury the rail. I don't race, I just pleasure cruise and try and learn something each time I go out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Find a long stretch and on a day with directionally steady wind, set your genoa close-hauled with the car somewhere in the middle of the track. Set your traveler all the way to windward and leave it there. Lock the tiller to center with a bungee or something (I just trap it twixt my legs). Then start playing with the mainsheet to steer the boat. When the bow goes windward, release the sheet. When the bow goes leeward, tighten. As you're playing, watch how much the front of the mainsail is luffing.

If the wind is strong enough, you won't find a steady course this way without the front of the mainsail luffing some.

Now it's time to play with your traveler. Drop the traveler down a few inches and repeat the above. At some point for any given strength of wind up to the point you'd need to reef or change foresails, you're going to find a balance. If you can't, something is wrong.

To get back to your original question... If the boat swerves to windward hard, it will not correct because your 110% genoa is gonna backwind. You're not going to get pulled back around the other direction because your mainsail is not to leeward and not to windward and there isn't enough pressure on the mainsail to counteract the backwinded genoa. You're just going to keep spinning cookies at this point.

If your balanced and a slight shift or gust brings the boat up-to-but-not-across being in irons, then the boat MAY self-correct. But if the bow sweeps through the wind hard, you're not going to be able to do much of anything until you bring the genoa across.

The genoa moves the front of the boat to leeward. The mainsail moves the BACK of the boat to windward. If you've ever driven a forklift with rear wheel steering, this activity of the mainsail will make perfect logical sense. You'll feel that familiar "butt steerage" as well once you know to look for it. Then you can think of your foresail and front steering and mainsail as rear sterring and things (at least for me) made a ton more sense.

(New-ish sailor learning on a 1969 Columbia Mk II -- Your mileage may, of course, vary.)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Piginwater said:

Yes this is my first boat with a genoa of any sort. I'm not sure of the angle.

My gut has been saying that I have way too much weather helm, and most everything is tuned wrong.

It has the stock traveler. It binds every single time I use it, and I have to help it move from side to side. Putting a better traveler system in is on my list of things to do. It's a long list right now though.

The tiller feels really heavy, so something is off. The backstay is not adjustable, and the genoa sheet tracks are kind of funky from the previous owner.

I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert on any sailboat. In general I am at 10 to 20% heel when going upwind, not trying to bury the rail. I don't race, I just pleasure cruise and try and learn something each time I go out.

 

One of the great things about sailing is that there is always more to learn. A better traveler will help, as will getting the mast set up correctly.

Do you trailer the boat, putting the mast up & down each time? Does it seem different some times?

Anyway, one fairly easy thing you can do is get a big tape measure and 1- make sure the mast is centered ie straight up-and-down from side to side. Get the measurement from the main halyard to a fixed point on each side, I like to use to ops of the chainplates which are usually pretty much the same on both sides. Then get a measurement for the "rake" which is the angle of the mast fore-and-aft. Usually masts are leaned back a little, if you have heavy weather helm you want to reduce this. But get a measurement first! Then loosen the backstay and tighten the forestay to move the mast head (main halyard point) forward by two inches or so (that's a lot, to start with). Leave it that way and sail enough times to be sure it's either helped or it's not. If it helps a little, try another 2" adjustment (although I generally work on smaller steps with my own boats, it's therapy)

Here are some other threads discussing similar topics

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/198761-how-to-sail-close-hauled/

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/194393-weather-helm/

Hope this helps.

FB- Doug

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ddmiller67 said:

Find a long stretch... 

Thanks for the advice, I like it, I'll try it out.

 

2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

One of the great things about sailing is that there is always more to learn. A better traveler will help, as will getting the mast set up correctly.

Do you trailer the boat, putting the mast up & down each time? Does it seem different some times?

...

Hope this helps.

FB- Doug

 

And thanks for this too Doug. Both very helpful and useful posts.

I used to trailer sail it, but we put it in a slip for about 3 months this summer. I REALLY like not having to set it up and take it back down every time!

I'll try adjusting the mast rake and see how that feels. The previous owner didn't seem terribly interested in maintenance or understanding how to set up the boat itself. I've left the rig tuned the way he had it, but I think it's time to start tweaking it.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've examined your technique and you're doing it wrong. 

First,  you put the anchor down,  then you bake the cookies. 

20181005_192555.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Ajax said:

I've examined your technique and you're doing it wrong. 

First,  you put the anchor down,  then you bake the cookies. 

 

I'm genuinely shocked it took this long to get that reply.

We have a little Cobb grill hanging off the rail, and we've made pizza, babyback ribs, and other deliciousities in it, but no cookies. Yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Piginwater said:

I'm genuinely shocked it took this long to get that reply.

We have a little Cobb grill hanging off the rail, and we've made pizza, babyback ribs, and other deliciousities in it, but no cookies. Yet.

Sorry for my tardiness, we were washing up the dinner dishes and pre heating the oven. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ajax said:

I've examined your technique and you're doing it wrong. 

First,  you put the anchor down,  then you bake the cookies. 

20181005_192555.jpg

How much time did you spend arranging the cookies so nicely on the plate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, VWAP said:

How much time did you spend arranging the cookies so nicely on the plate?

Probably less time than it took for you to type your diss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Probably less time than it took for you to type your diss.

Ok thank...  oh wait you are from PA,   never mind 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Piginwater said:

I'm genuinely shocked it took this long to get that reply.

We have a little Cobb grill hanging off the rail, and we've made pizza, babyback ribs, and other deliciousities in it, but no cookies. Yet.

If you work on getting the procedure right, you can make beer bread in tinfoil on a grill

Awesome to have fresh "baked" bread with dinner

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a Colgate 26 I used to have I would show my gf that even in 20 kts wind and 20 degrees of heel if the sail plan was balanced the boat would track straight hands off tiller for about 6 to 8  seconds before slowly turning into the wind. I can do the same with my Beneteau First 235 and my FE28R.  If you go straight into the wind the minute you let go of the tiller then the main sail is either sheeted in too far or the traveler is up too high relative to the jib trim. Either power up the jib or depower the main

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the same merit 22 issue

i am slowly moving the mast too a true vertical position. I think this boat does best with zero mast rake. However an adjustable lazy jack hooked to the rail serves to eliminate head stay sag going upwind 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/5/2018 at 6:51 PM, stumblingthunder said:

....

The only time that lee helm is helpful on a sailboat is hove to.

- Stumbling

I would say mostly... If you are in "survival mode" and need to go upwind on some boats (especially boats designed post 1990ish with a relatively narrow fin keel) a flat storm jib alone and a bit of lee helm will do wonders. Don't ask me the theory behind it. It might not be the fastest but it just feels safe and controlable when you try it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I would say mostly... If you are in "survival mode" and need to go upwind on some boats (especially boats designed post 1990ish with a relatively narrow fin keel) a flat storm jib alone and a bit of lee helm will do wonders. Don't ask me the theory behind it. It might not be the fastest but it just feels safe and controlable when you try it.

I did that on a Santa Cruz 50 delivery coming back from Key West to Tampa.   A front had passed through and the waves in Florida Bay were square and when the boat went faster than 5 knots over the waves, she would drop from the wave top to the trough.  Was sailing with the #4 and no main.   Made getting through the night bearable.   The following day, the wind speed dropped, and later, the wave hight dropped and we were able to get back to full sail going windward.

I have a picture of me with dried salt all over my face and a dazed look after helming all night.

- Stumbling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, stumblingthunder said:

I did that on a Santa Cruz 50 delivery coming back from Key West to Tampa.   A front had passed through and the waves in Florida Bay were square and when the boat went faster than 5 knots over the waves, she would drop from the wave top to the trough.  Was sailing with the #4 and no main.   Made getting through the night bearable.   The following day, the wind speed dropped, and later, the wave hight dropped and we were able to get back to full sail going windward.

I have a picture of me with dried salt all over my face and a dazed look after helming all night.

- Stumbling

I've never sailed one or ever seen one other than in photo but a santa cruz 50 seems like the perfect candidate for this technique!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/6/2018 at 6:31 AM, ddmiller67 said:

Find a long stretch and on a day with directionally steady wind, set your genoa close-hauled with the car somewhere in the middle of the track. Set your traveler all the way to windward and leave it there. Lock the tiller to center with a bungee or something (I just trap it twixt my legs). Then start playing with the mainsheet to steer the boat. When the bow goes windward, release the sheet. When the bow goes leeward, tighten. As you're playing, watch how much the front of the mainsail is luffing.

If the wind is strong enough, you won't find a steady course this way without the front of the mainsail luffing some.

Now it's time to play with your traveler. Drop the traveler down a few inches and repeat the above. At some point for any given strength of wind up to the point you'd need to reef or change foresails, you're going to find a balance. If you can't, something is wrong.

To get back to your original question... If the boat swerves to windward hard, it will not correct because your 110% genoa is gonna backwind. You're not going to get pulled back around the other direction because your mainsail is not to leeward and not to windward and there isn't enough pressure on the mainsail to counteract the backwinded genoa. You're just going to keep spinning cookies at this point.

If your balanced and a slight shift or gust brings the boat up-to-but-not-across being in irons, then the boat MAY self-correct. But if the bow sweeps through the wind hard, you're not going to be able to do much of anything until you bring the genoa across.

The genoa moves the front of the boat to leeward. The mainsail moves the BACK of the boat to windward. If you've ever driven a forklift with rear wheel steering, this activity of the mainsail will make perfect logical sense. You'll feel that familiar "butt steerage" as well once you know to look for it. Then you can think of your foresail and front steering and mainsail as rear sterring and things (at least for me) made a ton more sense.

(New-ish sailor learning on a 1969 Columbia Mk II -- Your mileage may, of course, vary.)

That's one of the best posts I have seen here.  Very well described.

If the boat has weather helm, the rudder is acting as a brake.  A small amount is good for providing feel, which is feedback the the hand on the tiller.  Anymore is just slow.

Your description above is something the all boat owners should do, but because they do not, they have no idea what to do to adjust the helm.

Something I have found that originally was counter intuitive, is about mast rake.  In breeze the mast can go forward a touch to unload the rudder and assist in punching through the chop.  In light conditions, that same setting may produce Lee Helm.  If raked a touch in the light it returns feel to the helm and helps the boat go forward wit less breeze.

That rake adjustment may be needed if the description ddmiller has supplied does produce lee or weather, that is it may have too much rake to ever produce lee helm in any reasonable sail trim.  I have seen people who should know better, setting a rig up based on "back a bit... bit more... bit more ... yep that looks about right!"  Every boat design should have numbers on rig setting to get the Center of Effort of the rig in the right place.

A perfectly balanced sloop-rigged boat going to windward will bear up in the gusts slightly while still driving hard, then bear away slightly in the lulls, by itself as the effect of the main reduces and the headsail takes over

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I printed out DDmiller's post to help me trim the boat. I've not been able to do all of it, (guests on board) but it was very helpful.

I also changed my mast rake from 5" to 3.5". I may end up going straight vertical.

My traveler setup is... Not good. I think another thing that is killing me is not having a boom vang. My winter to-do list is:

  1. Mainsheet Traveler (Harken windward sheeting?)
  2. Boom Vang
  3. Adjustable backstay 

Just how big of a deal is the adjustable backstay going to be with a masthead rig though?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/5/2018 at 12:42 PM, KC375 said:

I’ve also heard that a little bit of weather helm helps offset leeway. I’d be interested if the more informed members could confirm or correct that.

Your information is correct, but please be aware that it’s just a kludge (i.e., not a substitute for accurate steering by an experienced helmsman backed up by a competent navigator).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Piginwater said:

Just how big of a deal is the adjustable backstay going to be with a masthead rig though?

 

Important as it will help you to manage headstay tension/sag but not as important as on fractionned rig as it won't help you to shape the mainsail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Panoramix said:
18 hours ago, Piginwater said:

Just how big of a deal is the adjustable backstay going to be with a masthead rig though?

 

Important as it will help you to manage headstay tension/sag but not as important as on fractionned rig as it won't help you to shape the mainsail.

Agree

It's pretty important, right after the sheets, in terms of adjusting the sail shape. The backstay does do more on a frac rig, but it can still open the leach on the main with a masthead, and provide some flattening curve to the mast depending on the stay/shroud configuration. IIRC the Merit 22 has single (pair) in-line spreaders

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you believe this picture :

merit_22_drawing.jpg

You can flatten a bit the top if the forward D1 are tight enough. TBH I would start by having the mast tuned straight and would start tweaking traveller, cunnigham, foot tension and reefing to flatten and depower the main before playing with mast bend. Sure noodle frac masts work very well but masthead has the advantage that when you pull one string, the effects are mostly contained to one area and unless massive gains, it is nice to keep it that way for practical reasons and there is no shame in reefing early.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nicely put. Although this is my second year with boat this makes sense I use a 110 and a 80 Genoa  I have set boat up for single hand. And can reef easily

 

my problem is the traveler. I may have to put in the cockpit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2018 at 1:38 PM, random said:

 A perfectly balanced sloop-rigged boat going to windward will bear up in the gusts slightly while still driving hard, then bear away slightly in the lulls, by itself as the effect of the main reduces and the headsail takes over

I believe that this is actually due to the change in heel which moves the CE.  The further the boat is heeled over, the further the CE is moved outboard to weather, the more weather helm.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Teener said:

I believe that this is actually due to the change in heel which moves the CE.  The further the boat is heeled over, the further the CE is moved outboard to weather, the more weather helm.

I hadn't thought about heel doing it, interesting.  What I have seen is that as the AoA increases with the boat heading up, the headsail starts to luff first, de-powering the front of the boat while main continues to power on.  I'm not talking about the heady physically luffing, just losing some drive.

The entire trim to weather can also be controlled by the jib twist alone.  If the leech is too tight the boat will develop weather helm, too loose and the main will drive the boat head to wind.  So careful trim of just the jib alone can get the boat balanced and behaving nicely in the gusts.  This works if the boat is already well balanced with no unnecessary load on the rudder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TECHNOKLUTZY said:

Nicely put. Although this is my second year with boat this makes sense I use a 110 and a 80 Genoa  I have set boat up for single hand. And can reef easily

 

my problem is the traveler. I may have to put in the cockpit

For small craft, depending on what boom you have, a vang and a traveler can do very similar jobs.  I would put a good vang system in first as you may find that the traveler is not required.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, TECHNOKLUTZY said:

The thread we were working was about a Merit 22 and the need to eliminate any mast rake

I thought we dealt with that.  Keep adjusting the mast rake with the sails in 'normal' trim until the boat is balanced.  Rudders are designed to be most efficient when there is same pressure both sides, they are symmetrical after all.  Any load on the helm is drag.  Slow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now